I think this game really will be F2p after a while, unless Bioware starts to develop some unique content that actually captivates players. The WoW model of games is dead.
If you are asking this question in other MMOs then that response should be expected. TOR is the new kid on the block that a lot of people will want to try out. Hardcore fans of other MMOs don't want TOR to succeed because that is potential loss of players for their game and thus a potential for their game to be closed a la SWG.
To be honest, when TOR has been out for awhile and other new games come down the pike, I will be a bit perturbed if similiar questions are being asked in chat. It's just human nature.
The first part is true. New games always attract attention, but lately they can;t hold the attention because players are wisening up. There are fanbois that don't like competition(I don't really know why) but there are also alot of vetern mmo players that don't care about an Ip that just want a good game.
I don't think this is exactly true.
The WoW model is far from dead. If anyone looks at the evidence it is very clear that it is very much alive.
The issue is not players eschewing the "WoW model" (to use your term) the issue is that any game that uses this formula has to compete with WoW or similar games and have to be just as feature rich. which they can't.
If this model was dead then hardly anyone would be going for these games.
Not counting those players who are more die hard sandbox gamers or who truly want a different type of themepark.
SWToR is exactly what it purported to be. It's playing exactly as I expected it to. Anyone follownig the game will see that.
The players who are crowding the servers know what this game is about. Whether or not this game can hold their attention is going to be something else.
But make no mistake, developers are seeing that this forumla attracts players and they will try to find a way to capitalize on it.
Games that have tried this formula and failed have failed because they were not as feature rich or were buggy or did not offer what they purported to offer.
SWToR will be incredibly successful IF they can keep the content coming and IF they can start adding features, new types of content, etc.
If they can't then they will have trouble keeping people.
The "Wow Model" has a very specific meaning to people and they are going to expect a lot.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I do have my opinions on SWTOR but the bottom line is that I'm a busy man and frankly I wouldn't bother spending my time on it even if it were F2P. I don't like what SW IP has turned out to be and I disliked WoW and that style of MMOs even before it came out. (Although I did play it for a year or so because it was the only really polished mmo at the time and that is, I believe, the only real reason for its "surprising" succeess.)
Imo this is exactly the reason WoW clones fail - WoW is a terribad conceptual design which became a freak success due to two factors: 1) broadband became massively available at that time and 2) no other mmo at that time could be called "polished" (sorry, I loved DAOCs concept but simply couldn't play it because of godawfull UI) Later it hang on due to sheer social inertia, hype and finally, lack of proper competition because everyone and their dog tried to copy something which is inherently flawed.
So, you won't go far convincing me. SW:TOR is just another attempt at cloning a deeply flawed concept in a mistaken belief that it is the concept itself that made WoW popular. Well it didn't and SW:TOR's coming failure will finally prove this to all the suits mindlessly copying that piece of crap.
The only guy I know who is hyped about SW:TOR is my friend who was hyped about AoC for "blood and boobs, man!" and "It's Conan, man!" just like he is now hyped about "It's like lightsabers and spaceships, man!" and "It's Star Wars, man!"... In short, meh.
Of of the 40 or so people I know who tried SWTOR only two bought the game. Most people I know hate swtor. Some just don't like it and a few appreciate that its a good game for the type of game it is. But its not a game that appeals to most veteran EQ1/VG/UO/DAOC type players.
What might be more telling is I have never seen a highly hyped game ever lose the number spot on the ratings here as fast as SWTOR is about to lsoe theirs. Its a good game for what it is and I don't approve of the hate but its not a game for everyone. I have strong doubts about its lasting appeal. In theory it should be bale to bring in a constant stream of new people to replace the people leaving. But the word is getting round about swtor and its generally not very positive.
It is not a good game its a good clone. That is all it is. Save for the hardcore fans people are only playing SW:Tor in the meantime for something better. Themepark genre is stagnant, and the sandbox is underfunded and too risky. Everyone has their eyes on GW2 because it brings us resurrection of the themepark genre and hopefully that will bring more innovations for other companies to build upon, instead of tacking on voice overs as something completely game altering.
For me its GW2 until a company with finacial backing and understanding what their players want will make a sandbox mmorpg. Hell even if they just listen to the community whether sandbox or themepark, because some of the core mechanics that we want are the same. Interaction with the world, meaningful impact through pvp/pve/crafting. Comradery that is justly proposed. Events in the world such as an npc army amassing to take over an npc town. Pvp where we can actually contest over terriotory that has meaning and gives meaningful rewards, not just a different shade of color chestpiece. Things like this.
Every time I bring up the game to anyone in chat anywhere on the net but mostly in other mmos asking if people are getting there copys tomarrow all I really get are everyones dislike for the game. What the heck gives, where does this all come from. I bet the game is missing out on alot of potential customers from all this bad publicity everyone seems to be shrowded in.
If that game really was that amazing, no amount of negative forum QQing would stop people from wanting to play it. Look at how many people bash WoW, yet it still retains millions.
In my opinion, I think the reality is simply that TOR has not demonstrated why it is a better game than WAR, LotRO, WoW, AoC, etc.
Gamers in 2012 are far more educated than in the past. They can look up gameplay videos, screenshots, reviews, etc. They can see what features are in the game, and what are not. And for the most part, they are more savey than they used to be --- less influenced by media Hype.
It is obvious that TOR has VO's, but what is not obvious is how good are those VO's. We have seen people talk about some class stories being not as good as others, or that some side quests are boring dialogue. We have even seen people say the Acting/Scripting is poor -- as in a 'bad movie'.
So when people are saying they dislike the game, or that the game doesn't look enjoyable -- and you cannot present anything other than simply your opinion of how amazing it is -- you should not be surprised that they do not want to rush out and drop $60 and $15/mo. People want a reaons to spend their money now, and imo, TOR is not answering some of the important questions for the customer that wants more than just 'story, story, story'.
If you are asking this question in other MMOs then that response should be expected. TOR is the new kid on the block that a lot of people will want to try out. Hardcore fans of other MMOs don't want TOR to succeed because that is potential loss of players for their game and thus a potential for their game to be closed a la SWG.
To be honest, when TOR has been out for awhile and other new games come down the pike, I will be a bit perturbed if similiar questions are being asked in chat. It's just human nature.
Honestly, while you are probably right on about other mmo supporters, I see it as the continued lowering of the bar for future AAA mmorpg development. Real depth has been sorely lacking in this genre of late and god forbid a big company try to make a sandbox game or even a sandpark (themepark with more sandbox elements). SW:TOR has persisted in becoming a WoW doppelganger, which was made clear prior to launch, and that's fine for those who want that. For those of us seeking a reprieve from the status quo that this genre seems to be adhering to it's seemingly another nail in the coffin. I will admit I have heard that TOR's crafting is more complex than WoW's so there is that at least.
Honestly, while you are probably right on about other mmo supporters, I see it as the continued lowering of the bar for future AAA mmorpg development. Real depth has been sorely lacking in this genre of late and god forbid a big company try to make a sandbox game or even a sandpark (themepark with more sandbox elements). SW:TOR has persisted in becoming a WoW doppleganger which was stated prior to launch and that's fine for those who want that. For those of us seeking a reprieve from the status quo that this genre seems to be adhering to it's seemingly another nail in the coffin. I will admit I have heard that TOR's crafting is more complex than WoW's so there is that at least.
I am more a themepark player, but I do enjoy sandbox elements. SWG was too sandbox for me when it launched (was on the first beta shuttle till a month or two after launch). I enjoyed both EQ and WoW.
I would have more satisfied if TOR had copied more of the things that worked in WoW (even it means it was even more a Clone of WoW), than I am with what I am seeing. Imo, it would have been better to see discussions about how to make TOR more a sandbox experience, than seeing things like 'no combat log, customizable UI, multiple zones for questing, weapon and racial diversity, etc).
So I guess you could say I am saying that TOR is not enough like WoW 2012. Even EQ2, with its 2004 VOs and Story, had many of the things TOR does not -- which is disheartening.
Well I dont quite see how you can miss critical points about this game that make it worth a play for many people.
I had a great time playing through content in terrian in SWTOR to be blunt, theres alot of good time to be had with quests to put it simply. Why miss out on that stuff even if it isnt ground breaking, this game isnt ment to be something more then it is which we all have known since its conception.
Sorry Eycel, I just don't share your enthusiasm about this game. Being an avid Star Wars, and Bioware fan I've followed the game since Bioware announced it. For the last couple of years I was really looking forward to the game. It sounded like it was going to be a brilliant mix of Bioware's single player RPG strengths mixed with solid themepark MMO features.
All that enthusiasm died in the several hours I got to play the beta. While I feel Bioware delivered on their promise of excellent Voiced acted questing in spades, I also feel they failed miserably at nearly every other aspect of the game outside that content.
And NO this ISN'T about me wanting the game to be bloody SWG 2.0. Its about me wanting to see a FULLY FLEDGED themepark MMO combined with the most captivating of Bioware's single player MMO features. Instead we got massively cut back themepark features that are even less fullsome than Rifts, and that's saying something (Its also unfair to Rift as even with cut back features that game managed to captivate me for nearly three months. SWTOR lost me in a matter of hours).
The game really feels to me like Bioware put so much time and effort into shoe-horning in all the VO content that they cut everything else to the bone. When I first realized I didn't like the game I honestly blamed myself for being burned on themepark gaming, but I've found in the last week that isn't really the case. The real problem is that SWTORs basic themepark features are just FAR too basic for my liking.
So I'm sorry you don't understand why I and others don't feel the game is worth our time and money (though I hope my post will help enlighten you at least a little bit).
And I'm glad you found a game you enjoy. I truly wish I felt the same way but I don't, so I'm not going to reward Bioware with my patronage. Its as simple as that.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Every time I bring up the game to anyone in chat anywhere on the net but mostly in other mmos asking if people are getting there copys tomarrow all I really get are everyones dislike for the game. What the heck gives, where does this all come from. I bet the game is missing out on alot of potential customers from all this bad publicity everyone seems to be shrowded in.
Kind of makes sense, when you think about it. The game is very polarizing, and most people either love or hate it. And since you are discussing it to other people on the internet, if they aren't already playing it, they'll say they hate it.
For those that are playing it though, the overwhelming majority of people are saying the same thing: The game is awesome fun.
Well I dont quite see how you can miss critical points about this game that make it worth a play for many people.
I had a great time playing through content in terrian in SWTOR to be blunt, theres alot of good time to be had with quests to put it simply. Why miss out on that stuff even if it isnt ground breaking, this game isnt ment to be something more then it is which we all have known since its conception.
Sorry Eycel, I don't share your enthusiasm about htis game. Being an avid Star Wars, and Bioware fan I've followed the game since Bioware announced it. For the last couple of years I was really looking forward to the game. It sounded like it was going to be a brilliant mix of Bioware's single player RPG strengths mixed with solid themepark MMO features.
All that enthusiasm died in the several hours I got to play the beta. While I feel Bioware delivered on their promise of excellent Voiced acted questing in spades, I also feel they failed miserably at nearly every other aspect of the game outside that content.
And NO this ISN'T about me wanting the game to be bloody SWG 2.0. Its about me wanting to see a FULLY FLEDGED themepark MMO combined with the most captivating of Bioware's single player MMO features. Instead we got massively cut back themepark features that are even less fullsome than Rifts, and that's saying something (Its also unfair to Rift as even with cut back features that game managed to captivate me for nearly three months. SWTOR lost me in a matter of hours).
The game really feels to me like Bioware put so much time and effort into shoe-horning in all the VO content that they cut everything else to the bone. When I first realized I didn't like the game I honestly blamed myself for being burned on themepark gaming, but I've found in the last week that isn't really the case. The real problem is that SWTORs basic themepark features are just FAR too basic for my liking.
So I'm sorry you don't understand why I and others don't feel the game is worth our time and money (though I hope my post will help enlighten you at least a little bit).
And I'm glad you found a game you enjoy. I truly wish I felt the same way but I don't, so I'm not going to reward Bioware with my patronage. Its as simple as that.
agree very much.. although I'm such a star wars fanboy Ill play for at least a month or 2 to get my MMO and star wars fix.. but honestly this is in every way a very very mediocre MMO.
Also on a side note whoever thinks general chat being spammed LFG every single second is better than a dungeon finder is out of there mind
Every time I bring up the game to anyone in chat anywhere on the net but mostly in other mmos asking if people are getting there copys tomarrow all I really get are everyones dislike for the game. What the heck gives, where does this all come from. I bet the game is missing out on alot of potential customers from all this bad publicity everyone seems to be shrowded in.
Kind of makes sense, when you think about it. The game is very polarizing, and most people either love or hate it. And since you are discussing it to other people on the internet, if they aren't already playing it, they'll say they hate it.
For those that are playing it though, the overwhelming majority of people are saying the same thing: The game is awesome fun.
Im playing right now on my other monitor.. but honestly for some reason enjoy arguing here in some ways more than playing.. sad i know
And NO this ISN'T about me wanting the game to be bloody SWG 2.0. Its about me wanting to see a FULLY FLEDGED themepark MMO combined with the most captivating of Bioware's single player MMO features. Instead we got massively cut back themepark features that are even less fullsome than Rifts, and that's saying something (Its also unfair to Rift as even with cut back features that game managed to captivate me for nearly three months. SWTOR lost me in a matter of hours).
I don't agree with this at all. What themepark features are "massively cut back?" This game has every single important feature of any standard themepark game, and more than most of them at launch. There is a ton of stuff to do in this game.
So what's missing? Surely you aren't talking about minor shit like LFG (which shouldn't be in this game at launch anyway), UI customization (which will be added very shortly), or any of the other little things like sitting in chairs that people like to complain about just so they have a reason to hate the game.
So again...what's missing from a fully fleshed out MMO?
Sorry Eycel, I just don't share your enthusiasm about this game. Being an avid Star Wars, and Bioware fan I've followed the game since Bioware announced it. For the last couple of years I was really looking forward to the game. It sounded like it was going to be a brilliant mix of Bioware's single player RPG strengths mixed with solid themepark MMO features.
All that enthusiasm died in the several hours I got to play the beta. While I feel Bioware delivered on their promise of excellent Voiced acted questing in spades, I also feel they failed miserably at nearly every other aspect of the game outside that content.
And NO this ISN'T about me wanting the game to be bloody SWG 2.0. Its about me wanting to see a FULLY FLEDGED themepark MMO combined with the most captivating of Bioware's single player MMO features. Instead we got massively cut back themepark features that are even less fullsome than Rifts, and that's saying something (Its also unfair to Rift as even with cut back features that game managed to captivate me for nearly three months. SWTOR lost me in a matter of hours).
The game really feels to me like Bioware put so much time and effort into shoe-horning in all the VO content that they cut everything else to the bone. When I first realized I didn't like the game I honestly blamed myself for being burned on themepark gaming, but I've found in the last week that isn't really the case. The real problem is that SWTORs basic themepark features are just FAR too basic for my liking.
Contrary to what others may believe, I am still on the fense about buying TOR. I like Sci-Fi, and would like to find a good MMO to get back into for the time being (GW2 is also on my list, as are some of the other upcoming MMOs).
For me, the frutrating part is that every time I try to get more details about what you critic here, I get bombarded by 'hater', 'troll', 'BW is great', etc, rather than some solid examples of how the non-VO/Story gameplay really is enjoyable and compelling. I see comments like what you have put up, and I am not seeing a lot of solid exmaples that strike it down. If someone says the game lacks life - which it appears from the game play vids I have seen -- why doesn't a fan show video to the contray (instead of calling the critic a hater or some other derogatory name)?
This is why I think people are not jumping on the TOR band wagon -- because there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence to the contrary of all the negative comments.
This game has every single important feature of any standard themepark game, and more than most of them at launch. There is a ton of stuff to do in this game.
There is a lot more to it, then just having the feature in it.
Look at how many games have PvP in their game, but it is customers consider it poor. Similarly, looke at other things, including Story. Many games have Story, but the customers consider the quality of that story to be poor.
What I desire to see are solid examples, rather than just proclaimations that the game is good, or that a criticsm doesn't have any merit.
I don't agree with this at all. What themepark features are "massively cut back?" This game has every single important feature of any standard themepark game, and more than most of them at launch. There is a ton of stuff to do in this game.
So what's missing? Surely you aren't talking about minor shit like LFG (which shouldn't be in this game at launch anyway), UI customization (which will be added very shortly), or any of the other little things like sitting in chairs that people like to complain about just so they have a reason to hate the game.
So again...what's missing from a fully fleshed out MMO?
the "core" themepark features are all there its what I would call the "convienence" features(I'm not going to list them cause there are TONS but some examples are of course LFG tool, customizable UI, reactive indicator, ect) this game sorely lacks.. Rift is a good example of a game that took many of the best these type "convienence" features from many other MMOs and incorporated them to the game at launch.. now honestly I would have been fine if all these features were not there and they just expanded upon the basic themepark foundation. But they didn't even do that they gave us the same basic classes used forever with the same basic talent trees that do nothing but add a few abilities and improve abilites you already get from leveling(just like every other game that uses this system)
Everything else is your basic run of the mill themepark MMO flair. Same basic instanced dungeons, same instanced pvp warzones, same fetch, kill, find, destroy generic MMO quests we have seen for the last decade+(just with flashy VO)
So in essense nothing is "missing" from the game just nothing was really expanded upon at all and all that "convienence" stuff was left out.
And NO this ISN'T about me wanting the game to be bloody SWG 2.0. Its about me wanting to see a FULLY FLEDGED themepark MMO combined with the most captivating of Bioware's single player MMO features. Instead we got massively cut back themepark features that are even less fullsome than Rifts, and that's saying something (Its also unfair to Rift as even with cut back features that game managed to captivate me for nearly three months. SWTOR lost me in a matter of hours).
I don't agree with this at all. What themepark features are "massively cut back?" This game has every single important feature of any standard themepark game, and more than most of them at launch. There is a ton of stuff to do in this game.
So what's missing? Surely you aren't talking about minor shit like LFG (which shouldn't be in this game at launch anyway), UI customization (which will be added very shortly), or any of the other little things like sitting in chairs that people like to complain about just so they have a reason to hate the game.
So again...what's missing from a fully fleshed out MMO?
I'm also curious, what is it that WoW has that SWTOR or any other themepark MMO doesn't or that can't be added in the future? True it's been a long time since I played WoW, but just about every MMO made since WoW is similar if not out right copies. When you look at it WoW just took the genre and refined it for the masses.
Boy GW2 better be a success, or it seems like a lot of people are going to slit their wrists. Really some of you folks take this hobby way too seriously.
This game has every single important feature of any standard themepark game, and more than most of them at launch. There is a ton of stuff to do in this game.
There is a lot more to it, then just having the feature in it.
Look at how many games have PvP in their game, but it is customers consider it poor. Similarly, looke at other things, including Story. Many games have Story, but the customers consider the quality of that story to be poor.
What I desire to see are solid examples, rather than just proclaimations that the game is good, or that a criticsm doesn't have any merit.
I swear quality>quantity
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Boy GW2 better be a success, or it seems like a lot of people are going to slit their wrists. Really some of you folks take this hobby way too seriously.
if you have not noticed MMOs are not just games they are addictions
Boy GW2 better be a success, or it seems like a lot of people are going to slit their wrists. Really some of you folks take this hobby way too seriously.
if you have not noticed MMOs are not just games they are addictions
Given all this drama, sadly it looks like you have a point.
Every time I bring up the game to anyone in chat anywhere on the net but mostly in other mmos asking if people are getting there copys tomarrow all I really get are everyones dislike for the game. What the heck gives, where does this all come from. I bet the game is missing out on alot of potential customers from all this bad publicity everyone seems to be shrowded in.
Most the time people just say there waiting for 2012 and what comes with it which we all know what game that is. Also people say they dont want to play another clone, thats a big one. I Really dont get it, this mmo adds so many new and exciting things to the table, it doesnt have to be ground breaking. They dont see my way of thinking though and i havent convinced any of these people that SWTOR is a great game.
The biggest thing is why are people so hell bent on there opinion, there is no changing there minds. Usually normal people when they converse with others especially people that your having a good time with online will take someones opinion with a bit of integrity but not over TOR, there so adamant and stuborn about it not being worth there time that it makes me think there is something going on here more then meets the eye. Whats your take on the situation as the game launches?
Dude it's because many people are sick and tired of this model of mmo. It doesn't matter that there is s space combat mini game or story added, it's still a theme park mmo to the extreme. Many people do not like theme parks, and others just are tired of them after having played them for so many years.
Yeah it adds story, but that's just one feature like RIFT added rifts. It's a nice new thing but ultimately it's still a generic theme park mmo underneath.
To be honest I am starting think the biggest issues with all current gen mmos, is that they innovate on one aspect for example SWTOR with Story and Rift...with rifts/DE, but haven't thought of how cool it'd be to add the two together, hell and add say AOC combat with it, just would be awsome, mainly in swtor.
Also when I was in beta I notice that when I swung my lightsaber it only targeted one enemie rather than when I swung it, it realisticaly would hit both npcs . Just something I thought about, did they fix this?
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Every time I bring up the game to anyone in chat anywhere on the net but mostly in other mmos asking if people are getting there copys tomarrow all I really get are everyones dislike for the game. What the heck gives, where does this all come from. I bet the game is missing out on alot of potential customers from all this bad publicity everyone seems to be shrowded in.
Most the time people just say there waiting for 2012 and what comes with it which we all know what game that is. Also people say they dont want to play another clone, thats a big one. I Really dont get it, this mmo adds so many new and exciting things to the table, it doesnt have to be ground breaking. They dont see my way of thinking though and i havent convinced any of these people that SWTOR is a great game.
The biggest thing is why are people so hell bent on there opinion, there is no changing there minds. Usually normal people when they converse with others especially people that your having a good time with online will take someones opinion with a bit of integrity but not over TOR, there so adamant and stuborn about it not being worth there time that it makes me think there is something going on here more then meets the eye. Whats your take on the situation as the game launches?
Dude it's because many people are sick and tired of this model of mmo. It doesn't matter that there is s space combat mini game or story added, it's still a theme park mmo to the extreme. Many people do not like theme parks, and others just are tired of them after having played them for so many years.
Yeah it adds story, but that's just one feature like RIFT added rifts. It's a nice new thing but ultimately it's still a generic theme park mmo underneath.
People maybe getting tired of the model, but the commercial success of the model has set the new paradigm for the genre. So the next time your playing WoW, look around you and thank your fellow players for what we have now.
There are other MMOs besides TOR? I hadn't noticed with the recent forum history around here.
Changing anyone's opinion about anything is going to be substantially more difficult when there is a monetary obligation involved. Getting someone to change financial institutions even when it is made perfectly clear (and they acknowledge) that they are being screwed by their current bank, getting someone to go for a better insurance provider, the list goes on and on. MMOs are no different.
There are other MMOs besides TOR? I hadn't noticed with the recent forum history around here.
Changing anyone's opinion about anything is going to be substantially more difficult when there is a monetary obligation involved. Getting someone to change financial institutions even when it is made perfectly clear (and they acknowledge) that they are being screwed by their current bank, getting someone to go for a better insurance provider, the list goes on and on. MMOs are no different.
what does this tell you? people don't like change.
Comments
I don't think this is exactly true.
The WoW model is far from dead. If anyone looks at the evidence it is very clear that it is very much alive.
The issue is not players eschewing the "WoW model" (to use your term) the issue is that any game that uses this formula has to compete with WoW or similar games and have to be just as feature rich. which they can't.
If this model was dead then hardly anyone would be going for these games.
Not counting those players who are more die hard sandbox gamers or who truly want a different type of themepark.
SWToR is exactly what it purported to be. It's playing exactly as I expected it to. Anyone follownig the game will see that.
The players who are crowding the servers know what this game is about. Whether or not this game can hold their attention is going to be something else.
But make no mistake, developers are seeing that this forumla attracts players and they will try to find a way to capitalize on it.
Games that have tried this formula and failed have failed because they were not as feature rich or were buggy or did not offer what they purported to offer.
SWToR will be incredibly successful IF they can keep the content coming and IF they can start adding features, new types of content, etc.
If they can't then they will have trouble keeping people.
The "Wow Model" has a very specific meaning to people and they are going to expect a lot.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I do have my opinions on SWTOR but the bottom line is that I'm a busy man and frankly I wouldn't bother spending my time on it even if it were F2P. I don't like what SW IP has turned out to be and I disliked WoW and that style of MMOs even before it came out. (Although I did play it for a year or so because it was the only really polished mmo at the time and that is, I believe, the only real reason for its "surprising" succeess.)
Imo this is exactly the reason WoW clones fail - WoW is a terribad conceptual design which became a freak success due to two factors: 1) broadband became massively available at that time and 2) no other mmo at that time could be called "polished" (sorry, I loved DAOCs concept but simply couldn't play it because of godawfull UI) Later it hang on due to sheer social inertia, hype and finally, lack of proper competition because everyone and their dog tried to copy something which is inherently flawed.
So, you won't go far convincing me. SW:TOR is just another attempt at cloning a deeply flawed concept in a mistaken belief that it is the concept itself that made WoW popular. Well it didn't and SW:TOR's coming failure will finally prove this to all the suits mindlessly copying that piece of crap.
The only guy I know who is hyped about SW:TOR is my friend who was hyped about AoC for "blood and boobs, man!" and "It's Conan, man!" just like he is now hyped about "It's like lightsabers and spaceships, man!" and "It's Star Wars, man!"... In short, meh.
It is not a good game its a good clone. That is all it is. Save for the hardcore fans people are only playing SW:Tor in the meantime for something better. Themepark genre is stagnant, and the sandbox is underfunded and too risky. Everyone has their eyes on GW2 because it brings us resurrection of the themepark genre and hopefully that will bring more innovations for other companies to build upon, instead of tacking on voice overs as something completely game altering.
For me its GW2 until a company with finacial backing and understanding what their players want will make a sandbox mmorpg. Hell even if they just listen to the community whether sandbox or themepark, because some of the core mechanics that we want are the same. Interaction with the world, meaningful impact through pvp/pve/crafting. Comradery that is justly proposed. Events in the world such as an npc army amassing to take over an npc town. Pvp where we can actually contest over terriotory that has meaning and gives meaningful rewards, not just a different shade of color chestpiece. Things like this.
/rant
MurderHerd
If that game really was that amazing, no amount of negative forum QQing would stop people from wanting to play it. Look at how many people bash WoW, yet it still retains millions.
In my opinion, I think the reality is simply that TOR has not demonstrated why it is a better game than WAR, LotRO, WoW, AoC, etc.
Gamers in 2012 are far more educated than in the past. They can look up gameplay videos, screenshots, reviews, etc. They can see what features are in the game, and what are not. And for the most part, they are more savey than they used to be --- less influenced by media Hype.
It is obvious that TOR has VO's, but what is not obvious is how good are those VO's. We have seen people talk about some class stories being not as good as others, or that some side quests are boring dialogue. We have even seen people say the Acting/Scripting is poor -- as in a 'bad movie'.
So when people are saying they dislike the game, or that the game doesn't look enjoyable -- and you cannot present anything other than simply your opinion of how amazing it is -- you should not be surprised that they do not want to rush out and drop $60 and $15/mo. People want a reaons to spend their money now, and imo, TOR is not answering some of the important questions for the customer that wants more than just 'story, story, story'.
Honestly, while you are probably right on about other mmo supporters, I see it as the continued lowering of the bar for future AAA mmorpg development. Real depth has been sorely lacking in this genre of late and god forbid a big company try to make a sandbox game or even a sandpark (themepark with more sandbox elements). SW:TOR has persisted in becoming a WoW doppelganger, which was made clear prior to launch, and that's fine for those who want that. For those of us seeking a reprieve from the status quo that this genre seems to be adhering to it's seemingly another nail in the coffin. I will admit I have heard that TOR's crafting is more complex than WoW's so there is that at least.
Some people will like SWTOR and some won't. Just like every other game.
So you go out of your way to find places that will predominantly be populated by people who won't like it, and then wonder why they don't like it?
That's like going to a gaming forum and asking why people don't want to watch youtube videos of laptops.
I am more a themepark player, but I do enjoy sandbox elements. SWG was too sandbox for me when it launched (was on the first beta shuttle till a month or two after launch). I enjoyed both EQ and WoW.
I would have more satisfied if TOR had copied more of the things that worked in WoW (even it means it was even more a Clone of WoW), than I am with what I am seeing. Imo, it would have been better to see discussions about how to make TOR more a sandbox experience, than seeing things like 'no combat log, customizable UI, multiple zones for questing, weapon and racial diversity, etc).
So I guess you could say I am saying that TOR is not enough like WoW 2012. Even EQ2, with its 2004 VOs and Story, had many of the things TOR does not -- which is disheartening.
Sorry Eycel, I just don't share your enthusiasm about this game. Being an avid Star Wars, and Bioware fan I've followed the game since Bioware announced it. For the last couple of years I was really looking forward to the game. It sounded like it was going to be a brilliant mix of Bioware's single player RPG strengths mixed with solid themepark MMO features.
All that enthusiasm died in the several hours I got to play the beta. While I feel Bioware delivered on their promise of excellent Voiced acted questing in spades, I also feel they failed miserably at nearly every other aspect of the game outside that content.
And NO this ISN'T about me wanting the game to be bloody SWG 2.0. Its about me wanting to see a FULLY FLEDGED themepark MMO combined with the most captivating of Bioware's single player MMO features. Instead we got massively cut back themepark features that are even less fullsome than Rifts, and that's saying something (Its also unfair to Rift as even with cut back features that game managed to captivate me for nearly three months. SWTOR lost me in a matter of hours).
The game really feels to me like Bioware put so much time and effort into shoe-horning in all the VO content that they cut everything else to the bone. When I first realized I didn't like the game I honestly blamed myself for being burned on themepark gaming, but I've found in the last week that isn't really the case. The real problem is that SWTORs basic themepark features are just FAR too basic for my liking.
So I'm sorry you don't understand why I and others don't feel the game is worth our time and money (though I hope my post will help enlighten you at least a little bit).
And I'm glad you found a game you enjoy. I truly wish I felt the same way but I don't, so I'm not going to reward Bioware with my patronage. Its as simple as that.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Kind of makes sense, when you think about it. The game is very polarizing, and most people either love or hate it. And since you are discussing it to other people on the internet, if they aren't already playing it, they'll say they hate it.
For those that are playing it though, the overwhelming majority of people are saying the same thing: The game is awesome fun.
agree very much.. although I'm such a star wars fanboy Ill play for at least a month or 2 to get my MMO and star wars fix.. but honestly this is in every way a very very mediocre MMO.
Also on a side note whoever thinks general chat being spammed LFG every single second is better than a dungeon finder is out of there mind
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Im playing right now on my other monitor.. but honestly for some reason enjoy arguing here in some ways more than playing.. sad i know
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
I don't agree with this at all. What themepark features are "massively cut back?" This game has every single important feature of any standard themepark game, and more than most of them at launch. There is a ton of stuff to do in this game.
So what's missing? Surely you aren't talking about minor shit like LFG (which shouldn't be in this game at launch anyway), UI customization (which will be added very shortly), or any of the other little things like sitting in chairs that people like to complain about just so they have a reason to hate the game.
So again...what's missing from a fully fleshed out MMO?
Contrary to what others may believe, I am still on the fense about buying TOR. I like Sci-Fi, and would like to find a good MMO to get back into for the time being (GW2 is also on my list, as are some of the other upcoming MMOs).
For me, the frutrating part is that every time I try to get more details about what you critic here, I get bombarded by 'hater', 'troll', 'BW is great', etc, rather than some solid examples of how the non-VO/Story gameplay really is enjoyable and compelling. I see comments like what you have put up, and I am not seeing a lot of solid exmaples that strike it down. If someone says the game lacks life - which it appears from the game play vids I have seen -- why doesn't a fan show video to the contray (instead of calling the critic a hater or some other derogatory name)?
This is why I think people are not jumping on the TOR band wagon -- because there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence to the contrary of all the negative comments.
There is a lot more to it, then just having the feature in it.
Look at how many games have PvP in their game, but it is customers consider it poor. Similarly, looke at other things, including Story. Many games have Story, but the customers consider the quality of that story to be poor.
What I desire to see are solid examples, rather than just proclaimations that the game is good, or that a criticsm doesn't have any merit.
the "core" themepark features are all there its what I would call the "convienence" features(I'm not going to list them cause there are TONS but some examples are of course LFG tool, customizable UI, reactive indicator, ect) this game sorely lacks.. Rift is a good example of a game that took many of the best these type "convienence" features from many other MMOs and incorporated them to the game at launch.. now honestly I would have been fine if all these features were not there and they just expanded upon the basic themepark foundation. But they didn't even do that they gave us the same basic classes used forever with the same basic talent trees that do nothing but add a few abilities and improve abilites you already get from leveling(just like every other game that uses this system)
Everything else is your basic run of the mill themepark MMO flair. Same basic instanced dungeons, same instanced pvp warzones, same fetch, kill, find, destroy generic MMO quests we have seen for the last decade+(just with flashy VO)
So in essense nothing is "missing" from the game just nothing was really expanded upon at all and all that "convienence" stuff was left out.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
I'm also curious, what is it that WoW has that SWTOR or any other themepark MMO doesn't or that can't be added in the future? True it's been a long time since I played WoW, but just about every MMO made since WoW is similar if not out right copies. When you look at it WoW just took the genre and refined it for the masses.
Boy GW2 better be a success, or it seems like a lot of people are going to slit their wrists. Really some of you folks take this hobby way too seriously.
I swear quality>quantity
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
if you have not noticed MMOs are not just games they are addictions
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Given all this drama, sadly it looks like you have a point.
Dude it's because many people are sick and tired of this model of mmo. It doesn't matter that there is s space combat mini game or story added, it's still a theme park mmo to the extreme. Many people do not like theme parks, and others just are tired of them after having played them for so many years.
Yeah it adds story, but that's just one feature like RIFT added rifts. It's a nice new thing but ultimately it's still a generic theme park mmo underneath.
The mythic folks got pvp wrong again, my god do they suck.
To be honest I am starting think the biggest issues with all current gen mmos, is that they innovate on one aspect for example SWTOR with Story and Rift...with rifts/DE, but haven't thought of how cool it'd be to add the two together, hell and add say AOC combat with it, just would be awsome, mainly in swtor.
Also when I was in beta I notice that when I swung my lightsaber it only targeted one enemie rather than when I swung it, it realisticaly would hit both npcs
. Just something I thought about, did they fix this?
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
People maybe getting tired of the model, but the commercial success of the model has set the new paradigm for the genre. So the next time your playing WoW, look around you and thank your fellow players for what we have now.
There are other MMOs besides TOR? I hadn't noticed with the recent forum history around here.
Changing anyone's opinion about anything is going to be substantially more difficult when there is a monetary obligation involved. Getting someone to change financial institutions even when it is made perfectly clear (and they acknowledge) that they are being screwed by their current bank, getting someone to go for a better insurance provider, the list goes on and on. MMOs are no different.
what does this tell you? people don't like change.