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For real?
Deewe
Member UncommonPosts: 1,980
Edit & foreword: Wanted to say I enjoy playing the game still, we ain't sheep!
Nearly fell down from my chair reading the below quote
Originally Posted by James Ohlen
For the most part, players and critics have praised the game, Ohlen shares, and BioWare is seeing an "exceptionally high" desire among its playerbase for continued subscriptions. But was BioWare prepared for the backlash as well? Ohlen says it was: "We knew that there was going to be people who wanted us to fail. But that's just the nature of the game. If you're going to build a huge game and try to go out to a lot of people, you're going to have people who just react poorly."
He does push back hard against claims that SWTOR failed on the innovation front, stating, "We wanted to take the lessons that have been developed in that genre over years and years and years and basically refine them, much like other companies do with other genres. So, I don't know, it's just the way it is, but I don't see us as not being innovative. We're actually a lot more innovative within the MMO space than comparable games in other spaces like the first-person genre, the action genre -- games like that."
In response to the now closed topic on SWTOR
Sir
no pun intended, still even if I can understand defending your (Everyone @BioWare/EA/LA) work you have either to be in denial, delusional or... I don't know.
First most players did not want you/TOR to fail but to succeed because, let's be honest we all want a FUN MMO. Then you should not even mention some wants you to fail, not only nobody cares about them but it makes you like the fool here. You reacted poorly.
Now about innovation may I lecture you about some of the things that are missing in TOR:
Swimming
Third party addons
Minigames like card games or slot gamers
Dual spec
Day/night cycles
Non humanoid based playable races
Planetary housing
Housing furnishing
Animal based pet classes
Resources for crafting that do have quality
Complex crafting system
Guild leveling system
Animal mounts
Flying mounts
PvP Arenas
Collision detection between characters
Macros
Barber / Image Designer
Appearance tabs
Fishing
Guild "Tabard"
Multiplayer mounts
Gear Dyes
Shared storage bank slots
In game voice chat
LFG tool
Guild bank
Incentives for socialization
Character extended body customization
3 Factions RvR
Wolrd PvP
RPG tools
Underwater content
3d exploration
The only things to notice, and I'm not saying these features are bad, are: speaking pets and totally V.O. story.
About "pet" classes, the not so good thing is in TOR you can't really choose how to play.
In single player you are mostly required to play with a companion (pet classe are somehow mandatory unless you want to play in hard difficulty mode)
In multiplayer you can't play a pet class in a full group or you have to replace a player with a companion.
On character customization, we can't really call innovation the following: a choice of combinations of 4 eyebrows, 4 jewelry, 4 cybernetic attachements and 4 body choices. SWG, AOC, AION, RIFT have more and better choices than TOR. And in SWG, LotRo I can change my character aspect in game after character creation.
About gear itemization, it has been proved the mod system does not do the trick and even a simpler appearance tab offers more customization, promotes more trading and prevents more players either from looking alike or being dressed as clowns. BTW other MMO do have gear dyes and the to come GW2 will have a choice of 3 dyeable zones on each equipment with a choice among palette color of 400 nuances. Also in games like, LotRo I can hide my character's shoulder pads, boots, gloves, cloak.
Apart glowing sticks and nice sounds I fail to see how TOR is innovative on combat. It's more or less the same stuff that has been done for eons. Also it's the exact same trinity system with boss kiting, playerS against a boss.
Let's speak about PvP: where are the massive battles? Where is the open PvP? The game was designed in a such way that it prevents PvP on too many planets and too often, apart in battlegrounds one has to be lucky to find an opponent player. Seems to me the innovation here was to remove PvP from the world and shrink it to the instances.
TOR crafting system, isn't bad but at this point it's more a money sink than else and just slightly better than Rift, not even as good as LoRo, EQII, Vanguard and light years behind from Pre-CU SWG.
How about TOR world? It feels dead. NPC and many mobs are just standing still. We can't interact with them. There's no critters. No day/night cycles with scripted NPC and mobs acting depending on the time of the day.
About the UI, the innovation here was to deliver the least convenient UI, AAA MMO wide. Even AoC had a more customizable UI at lauch and that's saying something. We can't even move my frames around nor scale my UI! This is a PC game not a freaking console game.
About story, ok the story ain't that bad in general but but too often the dialogs are pretty generic and well the choices don't have any impact at all on the game.
Loading screens... of death. AoC was flamed to death for having them and we have at least twice more in TOR. Do you call that innovation?
Please don't mention the space shooter because not only it's more on rails than all others around but even your scripted music isn't as good as what was achieved with the dynamic iMuse system in X-Wing in... 1993!
Finally let's talk polishing. At best TOR is uneven in terms of polishing:
"Let's see: lacklustre UI, AA not working, High textures not available in world, many players with regular disconnection errors 9000, Black screen crashing, horrid FPS issues, Taris memory leak @launch, players that can't complete patching the game, many V.O. camera angles off, some quests story lines broken, group and guild chat that was broken, totally flawed PvP design on Illum, poor LFG system, not even dual specs"
A polished MMO? Bend towards Turbine/LotRO and more lately Trion Worlds/Rift. These are polished MMO with a budget at best half TOR (supposedly I agree) $100-120ish millions bill.
/rant off
P.S.: let's just hope it was only a miss step soon to be forgotten. Long live to a FUN TOR!
Comments
Wow... someone in the company perched themselved on a mighty horse, talk about delusional. And lol at the claim of being innovative. And why make the comparison on innovation to a different genre?
Referring to TOR as innovative is like calling my latest bowel movement "Lawlmonsters' most creative poop".
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Exactly, how come they can pretend innovating if they don't even have at least the basics from others MMO?
Example: not having day/night cycles isn't a good innovation.
What would be great is to have and them and top them with: seasons and changing world.
WHEN WILl PEOPLE GET THIS
ITTTTT TTTTTTT
ISSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
STAR WARSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Of course nothing makes absolutely no sense. There is no point in pointing out flaws. People just want KOTOR 3 with co op mode and will settle for it. Will they resub? who knows.
what else is new here? Welcome to 1984.
I would like to know which games that came out in the last 10 years or so had ALL (34) of these in game at launch. THEN we can compare apple to apples and not to oranges
Now about innovation may I lecture you about some of the things that are missing in TOR:
Swimming
Third party addons
Minigames like card games or slot gamers
Dual spec
Day/night cycles
Non humanoid based playable races
Planetary housing
Housing furnishing
Animal based pet classes
Resources for crafting that do have quality
Complex crafting system
Guild leveling system
Animal mounts
Flying mounts
PvP Arenas
Collision detection between characters
Macros
Barber / Image Designer
Appearance tabs
Fishing
Guild "Tabard"
Multiplayer mounts
Gear Dyes
Shared storage bank slots
In game voice chat
LFG tool
Guild bank
Incentives for socialization
Character extended body customization
3 Factions RvR
Wolrd PvP
RPG tools
Underwater content
3d exploration
Really? Every one of these threads i read sound like people just want world of warcraft...
The highlighted red text in my opionion either has
1. No place in a starwars universe
2. Sounds like it should be there just because wow has it.
Fully Support the Implementation of the green text,
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Curiouser and curiouser O_o
My guess is, most people don't REALLY want innovation, they want comfortable and recognisable stuff more than they're willing to acknowledge themselves: I bet that if an MMORPG would be released that would have all the core mechanics of UO, or EQ or SWG but with updated graphics and some refined tweaks, a lot of people that are constantly calling for innovation would JUMP at the chance of playing those MMO's without abandon, no matter if those mechanics and features would be 'same ol' same ol''.
I think that a lot of those people just want a game that is different from the themepark one(s) they've been playing extensively for the past years, up to the point that they've grown sick of it. It isn't about revolutionary innovation, it's about games being different enough from the ones they have burnt themselves out on by overplaying them, in hopes that this will rekindle the fire and gaming fun again that they have lost. Even existing, older but currently rarely used mechanics and design features will suffice.No offense but a good 50% of things on your list I don;t wanna see in swtor...underwater zones? for real? man why oh why do people obess about underwater so much ppl cried so much for that in WoW so they did it and that zone stays a ghost town why? because there hasnt been ONE underwater zone in any mmog that doesn';t suck
Because there is nothing that SWTOR differs from other MMOs? Class story everyone supports, VOs people think is good but a sizeable portion of gamers say that BW went a bit overboard though. A lot of things were borrowed from WoW (and yes WoW borrowed stuff from UO, EQ, and who knows what else) but they have a subpar quality which is why they say "why can't it be like this or that MMO."
People are yearning for innovation hence why GW2 is very highly hyped and why TSW is growing hype.
People were sold on SWTOR being innovative which the opposite is the truth.
[mod edit]
@ OP...
SWIMMING? REALLY?!?! If there is one thing I don't miss about other games, it is ultra-slow travel. So then, I went down your list... and it mostly reads like a list of WOW features, most of which are garbage, and I am thankful NOT to have them. Guild tabbards in SWTOR? When have Han or Luke ever worn a guild tabbard? Arenas? Ruined PVP. Multiplayer mounts? Who cares?
Just citing a few examples.
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Because there is nothing that SWTOR differs from other MMOs? Class story everyone supports, VOs people think is good but a sizeable portion of gamers say that BW went a bit overboard though. A lot of things were borrowed from WoW (and yes WoW borrowed stuff from UO, EQ, and who knows what else) but they have a subpar quality which is why they say "why can't it be like this or that MMO."
People are yearning for innovation hence why GW2 is very highly hyped and why TSW is growing hype.
People were sold on SWTOR being innovative which the opposite is the truth.
I think you have missed my point, which is that it's ironic that people want the same stuff in one hand yet innovative stuff in the other. My post gave what I thought was the reason behind this apparent paradox.
As for people being sold on SWTOR being innovative, sorry, but I think it was more about Star Wars and Bioware and the story aspect that as good as all people were being sold on, and the story part in questing was definitely different from what can be found in current traditional textbased questing, as seen in MMO's like Rift, Aion, EQ2, LotrO etc.i love it when alot of the users on MMORPG.com forums hype up 1 game such as WoW, AoC, and then when they move to the next big craze, currently its TOR. Its all "duh naa dont knock TOR" and you bring up anything or your own opinion and they just troll you, once the next big game is out notice how the active forum users who talked up TOR in every post change there tone, and the random hype trolls possibly just make a new account and continue there fail tradition of hyping up anything that entertains then longer then a adult video would....
I have to agree. There's a lot there that I have no interest in.
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Some of the choises actually has an impact, like what you have to do in a quest, or what kind of quest you will get at all. I dont know how often this happens since I've only found out on couple of quests that I did with my alt and took different dialog choises.
If you would like to see a worldwide permanent impact on the game world, that's not going to ever happen in a themepark, people cant just run around doing the same quests having the world change based on their decisions.
It's true the game is not very innovative, but I guess it's the sum of many things that makes me love this game. Like the crafting, it does not really do anything innovative, but oh boy it feels so much more fluid and fun compared to other themeparks, for me at least. And small things like every ability having own animations, makes the combat look so much better than 3-animation system like WoW. It's kinda like my brother said, he told me he's not going to buy a WoW in space since he's sick and tired of that game or similar games, I persuaded him to buy TOR and now he thinks it's awesome and is coming up with couple of years estimations on how long he propably is going to play this.
Hopefully Bioware are not stubborn gits like Blizzard and listens to players and adds actually new and fresh things to the game, I'll stick with the game if they do, if they dont, then I'm glad there's so many other promising games on the horizon. I just wish BW isnt going to waste time ruining their game with stuff like flying mounts and underwater stuff, cant think of many worse features in mmorpgs than those two.
I love someone who has a whole 8 posts and generlizes and called other ppl trolls. Alot of those idea's on that list isn't needed features some are okay idea's no one is saying ppl cannot give opions on what may be cool and needs to be added but no where does it say we all have to agree to what someone else may think is cool or needed.
1. Ultra-slow travel, no thanks
2. This isn't needed... This isn't WOW.
3. Pazaak is coming.
4. Woudln't mind it, but not a deal breaker.
5. Wouldn't be bad to have in-game.
6. Coming.
7. Not needed. You already have a ship.
8. Halfway decent idea.
9. Has nothing to do with SW.
10. What are you talking about?
11. Not needed.
12. NO! This is probably one of the worst ideas in the horrible expansion that is Cata. It's why I unsubbed.
13. Coming.
14. Again, NO! This was a horrible design decision that made everything in the game more modular and less real.
15. NO! As stated above this basically ruined PVP in WOW....
16. So that players can physically block you from reaching the mailbox? Terrible idea.
17. Nice to have but not essential.
18. Not a bad idea.. suggestions keep coming about this.
19. Coming.
20. How many fishermen did you see in 6 Star Wars movies? I count ZERO.
21. As stated above, does not fit SW, at all.
22. Also as above... who cares? They are not that good or useful anyway.
23. Coming.
24. Useful but not essential.
25. I disagree. Voice chat in SWTOR overlaps and interferes when you are trying to hear a mission. It is definitely not needed in-game.
26. They are woking on this in some form... how it will work remains to be seen.
27. Coming.
28. ALREADY in game.
29. As per what game? No game does this.
30. OK... name two games that do this. SWTOR was never labeled as the spiritual successor to DAOC.
31. ALREADY in game.
32. I would like to see some more RP stuff as well, like character bios.
33. Garbage. Do not want.
34. ALREADY in game.
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I think we need to look at other games back when they were released. At the beginning Guild Wars had many options missing like customizable henchmen or a better crafting system which allowed for more accurate crafting of items. Much later on they revamped a few pvp modes and changed the attribute point system (In times of old a hero had to earn 250xp per point of respeccing today you can freely change it in a town area) I'm not even sure if the guildhalls had guild vendors. When i first started playing wow there was no dungeon finder and I enjoyed travelling to dungeons nor were there guild achievements or guild rewards.
Point being the many options we live with now we take for granted (or hate) had not existed for YEARS after the games release so to expect a new mmo (which takes time to develop) to have all the latest features is asking a lot. Some ideas seem like a no brainer - crafting items + guild bank = sharing - and those not being present does baffle the mind somewhat. Perhaps they had to spend most of their resources making the cutscenes look good.
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Hi; I'm going to highlight the neccessary features in red, Cosmetic features in Blue, and vanity features in orange.
To touch up on some points:
Flying Mounts
? - Flying mounts are a neat idea, however; flying mounts can retract from a a game's sense of 'scale'. If you can fly over a mountain, it doesn't really seem that massive to you. Flying also allows you to skip PVE content.
Fishing
- Fishing is not a really big known concept in the SW universe. It would seem a little 'off' to add it. Pazaak or even swoop gambling seem like a normal 'pass-time' for TOR.
Animal Based Pet Classes
- SWTOR does not have pets. They have companions. Companions are essentially player controlled characters. You can gear them and use a full hotbar of abilities. Unlike hunter pets, companions can really effect how things work. Tanking companions, healing companions, interrupt companions, and DPS companions turn the tide of battle for players. Pet classes wouldn't make sense.
Collision Detection Between Characters
? - This concept has long been forgotten to the MMO genre. It was a terrible idea which caused a lot of greif. Having to snake between players in crowded area's caused people to quit. No MMO that doesn't use this as an integral feature has this anymore.
Quality Crafting Resources
?- I assume you are referring to SWG. In that crafting enviorment, this works. However, in TOR, this does not. TOR already has a RGN encounter for crafting. Occassionally you will 'crit' with a craft giving it better stats. Reverse Engineering allows you to get a better version of that item. Bumping it up in quality, (IE. Green > Blue. Blue > Purple)
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2