I would like to know which games that came out in the last 10 years or so had ALL (34) of these in game at launch. THEN we can compare apple to apples and not to oranges
SWG
LOL no. SWG didn't have vehicles or creature mounts on Day 1. And even though they had player housing, you couldn't turn groups of houses into player cities until almost six months after launch.
As a player I'm really looking forward the future additions to TOR but I'm also a paying subscriber and my play time is limited.
There are already other well polished MMO with much bigger content. There's also a few other interesting MMO to be published in a not so far future. You have to have it now, not in 6 month. There's no such thing as a second launch for an MMO.
I think this is a real good point.
In earlier years, when there was less competition, I think MMO gamers were more forgiving and willing to stick with a game. Now? You've got more polished MMOs that already exist... and you've always got a new MMO about to launch.
Sure... there are release droughts, when players will take a 2nd look at already launched games... but then, they are usually doing it for considerably less $$$.
It may be that TOR was never going to be excellent. It could be that some of the problems just aren't correctable and whatever benefit the game could've received by more months of development - wasn't going to pay off with substantially more subscribers - compared to continuing to pay developers and staff without launching the game.
Well, you can go different routes with that example. For example: the new gym is closer to your home, your friends and buddies work out there and it's more fun to train together with them, the atmosphere and vibe of the place is more to your liking than the other older gyms, you like the crowd hanging around there, it has a friendlier more encouraging culture there, they have specialised training programs that you're interested in and that the other gym(s) didn't offer... so many factors that can play a role in decisionmaking.
To translate things to SWTOR: it offers a SW/KOTOR vibe that a person can enjoy, it provides a questing experience that to those interested provide a more immersive and engaging experience than questing in other MMO's, it offers the options instanced PvP, open world PvP, FFA PvP as well as objective based faction PvP where MMO's like LotrO and Aion don't offer that in such variety, it has an entertaining and well integrated Companion system, it has a different-than-usual crafting mechanic and system, it has a plethora of group/duo content, the large explorable worlds and the dungeons and raid content that might be expected of an AAA MMORPG, etc. In short, it offers its own stuff and distinctions, just like other AAA MMORPG's.
Yeah if you like the lore.. say the internal decor of the gym... it has a few machines that the other gym doesn't .. say other small features that SWTOR has (though, I hear that faction based PvP is poor)... etc..
Thats all fine and we each have our own preferences.. but when the haters complain about the lack of a swimming pool and sauna.. why does everyone who likes the gym (swtor) feel that they have the right to tell the complainer to shut up?
Its a forum. Its for people to voice their opinions, good or bad, so that those considering whether to buy the game can form a fair opinion (as much as is possible)..
Thanks for the list OP and just re confirming the list of things i never want to see in SWTOR. Its ironic really. if Bioware copies stuff from WOW people cry clone and when it doesn't people still complain. Companies just can not win no matter what they do. Best example is demand of LFG tool like WOW has. However i did have a good laugh at 'guild tabards' lol.
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
The question you should be asking is if it bothers you that much, why do you keep playing MMOs?
Very good question. With every new one that comes out the whole genre is drifting further and further away from what an mmorpg should be, in my opinion. I'm enjoying SWtOR but for me it's like a single player game with a chatbox to talk to friends, and to be honest Skyrim already does single player rpg much better as do others.
I'm looking for real reasons to group up (at the minute I can solo to max level in most mmos without needing to group and the Heroics and Flashpoints in SWtOR aren't needed for decent gear) player built worlds and communities ingame and above all (and this hasn't happened since EQ) a game that keeps me for more than a few months.
Mmorpgs used to be a long term commitment (I nearly lost my job while playing EQ, I can't see that ever happening with any recent mmo) now though we know we might get a months play out of it and then we'll just be grinding dungeons ad infinitum.
Why do I keep playing mmos? I'm not sure anymore. I'm looking for the holy grail I expect and always thinking 'will this be the one?'. The whole mmo industry has let players down badly catering for casuals (nothing wrong with that, i'm one myself) but to the exclusion of everything else. What a shame. It was once a great genre, the one gaming genre PCs could called their own.
I'm enjoying SWtOR... A LOT. But i'm fairly sure I won't be playing it come the summer (because i'll be playing GW2 if it's out), and every new mmog drives me further and further away. I'm thinking mmofps is the way to go, Planetside 2 looks brilliant.
15 years ago when UO came out I thought that would be it for me, i'd found the perfect PC genre. EQ was the same, DAoC not quite as immersive and so on... Now we are where we are.
Thanks for the list OP and just re confirming the list of things i never want to see in SWTOR. Its ironic really. if Bioware copies stuff from WOW people cry clone and when it doesn't people still complain. Companies just can not win no matter what they do. Best example is demand of LFG tool like WOW has. However i did have a good laugh at 'guild tabards' lol.
I seriously doubt that.
Let's take a few examples, mind you?
- Minigames like card games or slot gamers: so you don't want pazaak, nor pod/swoop racing? These are minigames.
- Non humanoid based playable races: aren't you looking forward playing an Ithorian, a Jawa or maybe even a HK-47 droid?
- Complex crafting/resources that have quality: so you aren't a crafter type of player? And you play MMO just to kill things?
- Animal mouts: how about Dewbak, Tauntaun, Varcatyl? Are you sure you would not enjoy wandering around with these?
- Marcos: Seems you never RP, using things like "/Mood: happy; /wave; /Say Hello %NT" ?
- Barber/Image Designer: Glad to see you are fine to be stuck with the same look on your character for years without being able to do anything else than re-roll
- Multiplayer mounts: guess you don't play with your wife/girl friend not people who have to be afk a bit from time to time? Multiplayer mounts, allow me to carry everyone around while other(s) attend personal stuff like taking care of a young baby or cooking for the family.
- Gear dyes: yeah sure:
- Shared storage bank slots: either you don't play alts or you fell in love with transferring your mats/gear through the email.
- Guild bank: you don't play MMO in guilds, fine. But we, guild leaders/officiers/crafters, need this.
- World PvP: I can understand not everyone likes PvPing
- 3d exploration: I see you aren't interested in force jumping to a specific place, or jump down from crazy heights to safely land with your jet pack, nor using grappling hooks to jump over a gap in a death star like bridge.
BTW never asked for a LFD/G Wow clone, you are the one adding the words here. What I would look forward to is an enhanced DDO system with the ability to:
LFG for all the quest you have at one (or select the ones you want to queue with)
Match making system letting you to browse through the players that have 1+ shared quests
I'm looking for real reasons to group up (at the minute I can solo to max level in most mmos without needing to group and the Heroics and Flashpoints in SWtOR aren't needed for decent gear) player built worlds and communities ingame and above all (and this hasn't happened since EQ) a game that keeps me for more than a few months.
Weird how you can say you are a fan of GW2 but think that the explorations and general grouping in open world event zones won't help the genre at all in this game. And that it might drive you away to play some FPS game. Are you kidding me? GW2 will change everything if the devs of other games are paying attention that is and follow suit. That's all it is is open world grouping, sure they have dungeons but for the first time ever dungeons/raiding will be an afterthought not a driving force. Grouping, without limits, popinto a zone do whatevers happening there (which isn't timed btw, pop back out again. It's gonna be a nice change.
Seems like you have missed some good century and more of writing to deem plots dead. If you suggest that all there is was invented by the Greeks back in the day then you certainly don't know what you are looking for. To open e.g. Beckett's Watt or Queneau's Exercise de style you would struggle to find a plot but they still manage to tell a story. Not to mention the classics like Joyce.
The concept of story has not grown old even on the new media; the problem is moreso that many stories are made in a fashion where I am not attached to it. If the moral choices would actually feel like moral choices and not simply as "routes to gear" it would do way more for the goodness of the story.
Seems like you have missed some good century and more of writing to deem plots dead. If you suggest that all there is was invented by the Greeks back in the day then you certainly don't know what you are looking for. To open e.g. Beckett's Watt or Queneau's Exercise de style you would struggle to find a plot but they still manage to tell a story. Not to mention the classics like Joyce.
The concept of story has not grown old even on the new media; the problem is moreso that many stories are made in a fashion where I am not attached to it. If the moral choices would actually feel like moral choices and not simply as "routes to gear" it would do way more for the goodness of the story.
that's exactly what i mean. One doesn't care about plots unless they're just fun to read/play, and because of that the actual plot isn't important, it's important just how you serve it.
Which is why a screenwriter is always less important than a director, or the director himself even writes the plot depending on the fun of the momentous action.
TOR's writing doesn't try to aid action in a symbiotic relation, it's pointless little tales that do nothing.
I rememberthis interview with Dragon Age 2 writer and she openly admitted that she hates gaming itself, it's an obstacle to the flow of the story. That's really really rotten reasoning.
I would like to know which games that came out in the last 10 years or so had ALL (34) of these in game at launch. THEN we can compare apple to apples and not to oranges
SWG
LOL no. SWG didn't have vehicles or creature mounts on Day 1. And even though they had player housing, you couldn't turn groups of houses into player cities until almost six months after launch.
The profession for making and training creature mounts and pets was there day 1...so it was possible if you ground out CH and Bio Eng in 32 hours.
I would like to know which games that came out in the last 10 years or so had ALL (34) of these in game at launch. THEN we can compare apple to apples and not to oranges
SWG
LOL no. SWG didn't have vehicles or creature mounts on Day 1. And even though they had player housing, you couldn't turn groups of houses into player cities until almost six months after launch.
The profession for making and training creature mounts and pets was there day 1...so it was possible if you ground out CH and Bio Eng in 32 hours.
Mounts didn't come in till just before vehicles, so they were like useful for two weeks or something before they were made useless and CH got nerfed too so that profession died way before the NGE as SOE never paid it any attention.
So, H.P. Lovecraft, Robert Jordan, Terry Goodkind, Stephen King, Jane Austen, Robert E. Howard, Michael Crichton, Charles Dickens, R.A. Salvatore, J.R.R Tolkien, and every author since Shakespeare are writing 'for suckers'.
That is, in and of itself, one of the most ignorant things I've ever read on these, or any other, forums. I'm not even commenting on the rest of your post, as I'll probably get banned. Thank God for the block feature.
If you had to pay $15 each month for every book you paid for and still own, then writers might very well be writing for suckers. Not that I think the story in TOR is anywhere near world class, but this type of comparison only goes that far.
excellent post OP. these wild claims sound familiar. a while ago, someone from BW asserted that any developer would be foolish to not do what Blizz did with WoW. these guys are clowns!
also, your list is a great outline of why WoW is actually better than TOR.
The question you should be asking is if it bothers you that much, why do you keep playing MMOs?
There is a simple answer for every single gripe that every MMO inevitably receives. Don't play the game if it bugs you that much. Find a different hobby. Find a different game. Vote with your wallet. It really is as simple as that.
Personally, until starting the SWTOR beta in June, I hadn't played an MMO for almost two years because I started grad school. My degree was more important than a video game. I've been away from MMOs instead of jumping from game to game to game looking for the Next Big Thing or the next reminder of some overly romanticized, rose-colored fantasy of my EQ1 days. As a result, I don't get up in arms over the little nitpicks and details that set so many others' hair on fire around here.
I'll play until it's no longer fun. So far, I've gotten six months out of it, and we'll see where things go. If I stop enjoying it, I'll move on. Unless you're getting paid to develop them, life's too short to get bent out of shape over a video game.
When I said 'we' I meant the community in general. Personally I don't take it.. I tried SWTOR beta and never considered buying the game. If an MMO is not worth it for me to pay for it - I dont.
PLEASE DONT TAKE MY COMMENT OUT OF CONTEXT!!
I was referring specifically to the argument used to defend (supposedly) feature lacking games.. that it has 'only just launched'. I used the analogy of a gym and made the point that whether the gym is new or old has no bearing on the features it provides vs the fee they charge. If people are legitimately using this argument, it seems like they don't make the same rational cost/benefit analysis that I do.
excellent post OP. these wild claims sound familiar. a while ago, someone from BW asserted that any developer would be foolish to not do what Blizz did with WoW. these guys are clowns!
also, your list is a great outline of why WoW is actually better than TOR.
Well to be honest the idea wasn't to say WoW > TOR but [Most AAA MMO ] > TOR in terms of innovation and polish.
Interestingly enough, WoW while totally focused on gear grind has more fluffy features than this more RPG oriented game.
What really bugs me is, with the big budget and 6 years of development, they aren't even able to have things like (multiplayer or not) Pazaak @launch. Sounds a bit silly if you ask, especially if you remember it was there in the comic. It's not like BioWare already have KOTOR code for this...
What really bugs me is, with the big budget and 6 years of development, they aren't even able to have things like (multiplayer or not) Pazaak @launch. Sounds a bit silly if you ask, especially if you remember it was there in the comic. It's not like BioWare already have KOTOR code for this...
Priorities were in other departments? If you ask me Pazaak wouldn't even get much player attention. The gambling games in SWG never did, I never once went into one of the casino's and saw players sitting around at tables (not once in over 2 years of solid play-time), and this was a game with a really social player-base.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What really bugs me is, with the big budget and 6 years of development, they aren't even able to have things like (multiplayer or not) Pazaak @launch. Sounds a bit silly if you ask, especially if you remember it was there in the comic. It's not like BioWare already have KOTOR code for this...
Priorities were in other departments? If you ask me Pazaak wouldn't even get much player attention. The gambling games in SWG never did, I never once went into one of the casino's and saw players sitting around at tables (not once in over 2 years of solid play-time), and this was a game with a really social player-base.
Yes but... it was in KOTOR and it was expected by KOTRO playerss to be there.
Comments
LOL no. SWG didn't have vehicles or creature mounts on Day 1. And even though they had player housing, you couldn't turn groups of houses into player cities until almost six months after launch.
I think this is a real good point.
In earlier years, when there was less competition, I think MMO gamers were more forgiving and willing to stick with a game. Now? You've got more polished MMOs that already exist... and you've always got a new MMO about to launch.
Sure... there are release droughts, when players will take a 2nd look at already launched games... but then, they are usually doing it for considerably less $$$.
It may be that TOR was never going to be excellent. It could be that some of the problems just aren't correctable and whatever benefit the game could've received by more months of development - wasn't going to pay off with substantially more subscribers - compared to continuing to pay developers and staff without launching the game.
Yeah if you like the lore.. say the internal decor of the gym... it has a few machines that the other gym doesn't .. say other small features that SWTOR has (though, I hear that faction based PvP is poor)... etc..
Thats all fine and we each have our own preferences.. but when the haters complain about the lack of a swimming pool and sauna.. why does everyone who likes the gym (swtor) feel that they have the right to tell the complainer to shut up?
Its a forum. Its for people to voice their opinions, good or bad, so that those considering whether to buy the game can form a fair opinion (as much as is possible)..
Thanks for the list OP and just re confirming the list of things i never want to see in SWTOR. Its ironic really. if Bioware copies stuff from WOW people cry clone and when it doesn't people still complain. Companies just can not win no matter what they do. Best example is demand of LFG tool like WOW has. However i did have a good laugh at 'guild tabards' lol.
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
Very good question. With every new one that comes out the whole genre is drifting further and further away from what an mmorpg should be, in my opinion. I'm enjoying SWtOR but for me it's like a single player game with a chatbox to talk to friends, and to be honest Skyrim already does single player rpg much better as do others.
I'm looking for real reasons to group up (at the minute I can solo to max level in most mmos without needing to group and the Heroics and Flashpoints in SWtOR aren't needed for decent gear) player built worlds and communities ingame and above all (and this hasn't happened since EQ) a game that keeps me for more than a few months.
Mmorpgs used to be a long term commitment (I nearly lost my job while playing EQ, I can't see that ever happening with any recent mmo) now though we know we might get a months play out of it and then we'll just be grinding dungeons ad infinitum.
Why do I keep playing mmos? I'm not sure anymore. I'm looking for the holy grail I expect and always thinking 'will this be the one?'. The whole mmo industry has let players down badly catering for casuals (nothing wrong with that, i'm one myself) but to the exclusion of everything else. What a shame. It was once a great genre, the one gaming genre PCs could called their own.
I'm enjoying SWtOR... A LOT. But i'm fairly sure I won't be playing it come the summer (because i'll be playing GW2 if it's out), and every new mmog drives me further and further away. I'm thinking mmofps is the way to go, Planetside 2 looks brilliant.
15 years ago when UO came out I thought that would be it for me, i'd found the perfect PC genre. EQ was the same, DAoC not quite as immersive and so on... Now we are where we are.
I seriously doubt that.
Let's take a few examples, mind you?
- Minigames like card games or slot gamers: so you don't want pazaak, nor pod/swoop racing? These are minigames.
- Non humanoid based playable races: aren't you looking forward playing an Ithorian, a Jawa or maybe even a HK-47 droid?
- Complex crafting/resources that have quality: so you aren't a crafter type of player? And you play MMO just to kill things?
- Animal mouts: how about Dewbak, Tauntaun, Varcatyl? Are you sure you would not enjoy wandering around with these?
- Marcos: Seems you never RP, using things like "/Mood: happy; /wave; /Say Hello %NT" ?
- Barber/Image Designer: Glad to see you are fine to be stuck with the same look on your character for years without being able to do anything else than re-roll
- Multiplayer mounts: guess you don't play with your wife/girl friend not people who have to be afk a bit from time to time? Multiplayer mounts, allow me to carry everyone around while other(s) attend personal stuff like taking care of a young baby or cooking for the family.
- Gear dyes: yeah sure:
- Shared storage bank slots: either you don't play alts or you fell in love with transferring your mats/gear through the email.
- Guild bank: you don't play MMO in guilds, fine. But we, guild leaders/officiers/crafters, need this.
- World PvP: I can understand not everyone likes PvPing
- 3d exploration: I see you aren't interested in force jumping to a specific place, or jump down from crazy heights to safely land with your jet pack, nor using grappling hooks to jump over a gap in a death star like bridge.
BTW never asked for a LFD/G Wow clone, you are the one adding the words here. What I would look forward to is an enhanced DDO system with the ability to:
LFG for all the quest you have at one (or select the ones you want to queue with)
Match making system letting you to browse through the players that have 1+ shared quests
Request/send invites with a /whisper popup.
If you say so my lord!!
You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty -- Mahatma Gandhi
Weird how you can say you are a fan of GW2 but think that the explorations and general grouping in open world event zones won't help the genre at all in this game. And that it might drive you away to play some FPS game. Are you kidding me? GW2 will change everything if the devs of other games are paying attention that is and follow suit. That's all it is is open world grouping, sure they have dungeons but for the first time ever dungeons/raiding will be an afterthought not a driving force. Grouping, without limits, popinto a zone do whatevers happening there (which isn't timed btw, pop back out again. It's gonna be a nice change.
{mod edit}
Seems like you have missed some good century and more of writing to deem plots dead. If you suggest that all there is was invented by the Greeks back in the day then you certainly don't know what you are looking for. To open e.g. Beckett's Watt or Queneau's Exercise de style you would struggle to find a plot but they still manage to tell a story. Not to mention the classics like Joyce.
The concept of story has not grown old even on the new media; the problem is moreso that many stories are made in a fashion where I am not attached to it. If the moral choices would actually feel like moral choices and not simply as "routes to gear" it would do way more for the goodness of the story.
that's exactly what i mean. One doesn't care about plots unless they're just fun to read/play, and because of that the actual plot isn't important, it's important just how you serve it.
Which is why a screenwriter is always less important than a director, or the director himself even writes the plot depending on the fun of the momentous action.
TOR's writing doesn't try to aid action in a symbiotic relation, it's pointless little tales that do nothing.
I rememberthis interview with Dragon Age 2 writer and she openly admitted that she hates gaming itself, it's an obstacle to the flow of the story. That's really really rotten reasoning.
the best blog of the net
The profession for making and training creature mounts and pets was there day 1...so it was possible if you ground out CH and Bio Eng in 32 hours.
MMO History: 2528 days in SW:G
Personally my bowel movements aren't all that innovative, but at least they come with anti-aliasing.
Mounts didn't come in till just before vehicles, so they were like useful for two weeks or something before they were made useless and CH got nerfed too so that profession died way before the NGE as SOE never paid it any attention.
If you had to pay $15 each month for every book you paid for and still own, then writers might very well be writing for suckers. Not that I think the story in TOR is anywhere near world class, but this type of comparison only goes that far.
excellent post OP. these wild claims sound familiar. a while ago, someone from BW asserted that any developer would be foolish to not do what Blizz did with WoW. these guys are clowns!
also, your list is a great outline of why WoW is actually better than TOR.
When I said 'we' I meant the community in general. Personally I don't take it.. I tried SWTOR beta and never considered buying the game. If an MMO is not worth it for me to pay for it - I dont.
PLEASE DONT TAKE MY COMMENT OUT OF CONTEXT!!
I was referring specifically to the argument used to defend (supposedly) feature lacking games.. that it has 'only just launched'. I used the analogy of a gym and made the point that whether the gym is new or old has no bearing on the features it provides vs the fee they charge. If people are legitimately using this argument, it seems like they don't make the same rational cost/benefit analysis that I do.
Well to be honest the idea wasn't to say WoW > TOR but [Most AAA MMO ] > TOR in terms of innovation and polish.
Interestingly enough, WoW while totally focused on gear grind has more fluffy features than this more RPG oriented game.
What really bugs me is, with the big budget and 6 years of development, they aren't even able to have things like (multiplayer or not) Pazaak @launch. Sounds a bit silly if you ask, especially if you remember it was there in the comic. It's not like BioWare already have KOTOR code for this...
Priorities were in other departments? If you ask me Pazaak wouldn't even get much player attention. The gambling games in SWG never did, I never once went into one of the casino's and saw players sitting around at tables (not once in over 2 years of solid play-time), and this was a game with a really social player-base.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yes but... it was in KOTOR and it was expected by KOTRO playerss to be there.