-the descicions they make - takes time to make stratigic choices
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat - again takes time
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships - again this takes time
-their ability to play the market and reap gains - well this might sound old but again this takes time
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
Which clearly shows it takes time doesn't it?
"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"
Aha your topic is about repetition actually, so it seems
why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.
Ever played normal RPG's? see the difference between the lenght of a singleplayer FPS game or a singleplayer RPG, it's the RPG that offers the longest playtime, but I do agree that these ranking systems in a RPG are not fitting properly and I find it sort of a shame that this genre does limit itself so much.
im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance. PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games.
There is allot more that can be done PVE wise where PVP is actually very limited yet it is more unpredictable, but this way of thinking is mine due to the fact I already PVP in other genre of games and enjoy them much more then the limited version in a MMORPG (ThemeparkMMO's). But again I do agree that PVE is really lacking these day's with current MMORPG's as they all seem to limit themself towards combat mostly.
I wished MMORPG would expand on the virtual world part, keep current MMO's as they are as many enjoy them, but I am sure the is a big enough group of player that would like to have more challenge then only combat challenges and if some of these people are like me they already get their combat challenges from other genre of games and might want a MMORPG to go beyond that what we already play and can find in other genre of games.
Being rewarded for playing a game is stupid anyway.
wtf are gamers? Dogs? Here boy (whistles) fetch! Go get it! yeaa good gamer, youre a good gamer arent you! good boy!
**** off. I dont need your stupid my little pony quest armor Ill make my own.
Humans do everything based on conditioning. So your argument is silly.
Thats the point isnt it? +1 for you.
Point is this. Reward for playing a game is all mental BS, if you kill this digital figure you get X, you get killed by this digital figure you get zip. You spend 12 hours per day trying to get item X for time vested and basically pointless effort, at the end of the day (if you meet the criteria or odds) you have a digital item that has no value whatsoever to anyone. You dont even own the account youre playing so, Let me channel morpheus. You think you own the space youre typing in? O.o People can have fun with the water hose or sprinklers outside, thats not conditioned; kids do it all on their own. They even build with the mud from the water leaked from the previous game of water spashing. It happens with very little thought. Horses kick balls around the yard, no one directs them to do so. There is no training for that. You just drop a ball in the yard. Look for the lightbulb.
Chew on it for a minute, its all silly, why should you waste your time with this sub or that to company X or company Y? Thats what youre being told and sold. Its all digital imagery with goal = X, I dont care how much you spin it, redraw it. Crafting, raiding, exploring, Questing... just standing there in a digital world is the sum of actions performed through real world methods via x,y,z.; moreover and more specifically, a prescribed and planned path of direction and rules you agree to adhere to in order to play the game. Why though? How big a deal is it all and why should people care? You decide.
Silly is also subjective, what is fun? fun can be silly. Silly can be fun. Is what you consider fun, silly? Maybe silly is the game I play on these forums. [Mod Edit]
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Being rewarded for playing a game is stupid anyway.
wtf are gamers? Dogs? Here boy (whistles) fetch! Go get it! yeaa good gamer, youre a good gamer arent you! good boy!
**** off. I dont need your stupid my little pony quest armor Ill make my own.
Humans do everything based on conditioning. So your argument is silly.
Thats the point isnt it? +1 for you.
Point is this. Reward for playing a game is all mental BS, if you kill this digital figure you get X, you get killed by this digital figure you get zip. You spend 12 hours per day trying to get item X for time vested and basically pointless effort, at the end of the day (if you meet the criteria or odds) you have a digital item that has no value whatsoever to anyone. You dont even own the account youre playing so, Let me channel morpheus. You think you own the space youre typing in? O.o People can have fun with the water hose or sprinklers outside, thats not conditioned; kids do it all on their own. They even build with the mud from the water leaked from the previous game of water spashing. It happens with very little thought. Horses kick balls around the yard, no one directs them to do so. There is no training for that. You just drop a ball in the yard. Look for the lightbulb.
Chew on it for a minute, its all silly, why should you waste your time with this sub or that to company X or company Y? Thats what youre being told and sold. Its all digital imagery with goal = X, I dont care how much you spin it, redraw it. Crafting, raiding, exploring, Questing... just standing there in a digital world is the sum of actions performed through real world methods via x,y,z.; moreover and more specifically, a prescribed and planned path of direction and rules you agree to adhere to in order to play the game. Why though? How big a deal is it all and why should people care? You decide.
Silly is also subjective, what is fun? fun can be silly. Silly can be fun. Is what you consider fun, silly? Maybe silly is the game I play on these forums. [Mod Edit]
Just because you don't understand the conditioning, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Most humans gravitate towards certain kinds of foods. They weren't taught by society though right? But they were taught by the environment many many years ago. Fats "taste good" because they were valuable nutritional sources. People eat fats to get the reward, a pleasant taste.
The main question is if you are not rewarded at all will you play mmorpg? The problem is everyone spent a different amount of time playing mmorpg.
Let's say I play 20 hours a week. Mmorpg rewards are only given for raids and arena. And my raid team and pvp team only spent a total of 3 hours a week doing it. What am I going to do the other 17 hours?
from replies posted in this thread it seems people
- do things for rewards. they seem to have forgotten about doing things because it is fun. i think it is very sad that this is what video games have come to "im only going to do activity x if i get shiny y". i dont blame the players completely, it is a side effect of the tastleless and boring gameplay of modern mmorpgs
- beleive/have come to accept that mmorpgs are about time based progression and this is the way it is meant to be. i think it would be more meaningful if you posted whether or not you preffered time based progression or not. we as consumers have the power to change how progression works in mmorpgs.
- think that rewarding descision making, reflex &manual dexterity, strategy, knowledge etc is the same as rewarding time spent as these skills can be developed with time. one of the points i made was the not everyone develops these skills at the same rate or to the same level. another advantage of mmorpgs being based on your own abilities is that everyone will be different. how often do you see two human beings in real life that have exactly the same skills/abilities
- feel the time based rewards is required for mmorpgs to make money. arent themepark mmorpg forums full of QQ for casuals complaining that they dont get the same gear as raiders and "i wil quiet dis gaem if i dont get dat shiny" threads. have a look at league of legends, it is not a mmorpg but it has some similarities. it is extremely popular and players are pretty much on a level playing field. I guess gw2 will be show us whether non time based reward mechanics are financially viable or not.
after saying all of this im fairly aware there will always be some elements of time based rewards in any game but i really dont think it should be the focus. time based rewards = bang yer head against a wall until your head breaks through the wall then start on the next wall. if you like it this way thats great, there are plenty of mmorpgs out there that fit your playstyle. i personally dont think this time of reward mechanics is healthy or fun.
from what i have seen gw2 seems to strike a nice balance between time based rewards and player skill/teamwork. you level up to max level (time based progression) and then its just about developing your skills as a player and a team, not getting the next tier of raid/pvp gear.
Would I be correct in summarizing this thread as: "I like to play in style X. Style X should get the most rewards!"
correct! this is the essence of debate/discussion -- taking into consideration that i made arguments backing up my views (something you forgot to mention)
feel free to state your viewpoint (rather than pointing out the obvious)
The feeling of fun IS a conditioned reward. It might not be as explicit as a shiny though.
The reason that everyone in games are the same is the fault of player skill whiners. Games had to homogenize to make themselves "fair". So whining that everyone in MMOs is the same when its the fault of "skill" obsessed players themselves is pretty ironic.
The feeling of fun IS a conditioned reward. It might not be as explicit as a shiny though.
The reason that everyone in games are the same is the fault of player skill whiners. Games had to homogenize to make themselves "fair". So whining that everyone in MMOs is the same when its the fault of "skill" obsessed players themselves is pretty ironic.
skill based gameplay would make everyone different not similar. i dont know how you can even make this claim when there isnt a single mmorpg out that is thoroughly based on player skill. the only thing close is darkfall or EVE but raising your RPG skills takes so long and provides a huge advantage.
im assuming you are referring to the homogenisation of classes in themepark mmorpgs like WOW, RIFT etc. im sorry to break it to you but these mmorpgs are not about player skill. the skill cap is very very low.
when i say player skill i mean games like quake 3, starcraft, dota, countersrtike, chess etc etc. no one is the same in these games because player input effects the outcome of gameplay so much more than a elements from the game itself --> examples: health points, mana points, spell damage, dodge change, crit chance etc.
real humans will always be more complex, unique and different than a character defined by a small types/number of bunch of programmed stats. try representing a humans intelligence using the RPG stats? its impossible, the best you can do is assign a number like 122 intelligence.
programming a human brain will require trillions of lines code and that is ignoreing creativity and ingenuity. there is not stat for creativity in RPGs. why not give players the tools to use their creativity in a game. why rely on stats, gear, damage, HP etc to create diversity when you have a fucking goldmine known as the human brain waiting to be exploited.
The feeling of fun IS a conditioned reward. It might not be as explicit as a shiny though.
The reason that everyone in games are the same is the fault of player skill whiners. Games had to homogenize to make themselves "fair". So whining that everyone in MMOs is the same when its the fault of "skill" obsessed players themselves is pretty ironic.
skill based gameplay would make everyone different not similar. i dont know how you can even make this claim when there isnt a single mmorpg out that is thoroughly based on player skill.
im assuming you are referring to the homogenisation of classes in themepark mmorpgs like WOW, RIFT etc. im sorry to break it to you but these mmorpgs are not about player skill. the skill cap is very very low.
when i say player skill i mean games like quake 3, starcraft, dota, countersrtike, chess etc etc. no one is the same in these games because player input effects the outcome of gameplay so much more than a elements from the game itself --> examples: health points, mana points, spell damage, dodge change, crit chance etc.
real humans will always be more complex, unique and different and different character definged by a small types/number of bunch of programmed stats. try representing a humans intelligence using the RPG stats? its impossible, the best you can do is assign a number like 122 intelligence.
programming a human brain will require trillions of lines code and that is ignoreing creativity and ingenuity. there is not stat for creativity in RPGs. why not give players the tools to use their creativity in a game. why rely on stats, gear, damage, HP etc to create diversity when you have a fucking goldmine known as the human brain waiting to be exploited.
Homogenized classes are the result of fair trolls. Wah wah game isn't fair.
Writing a human brain would not take a trillion lines of code. Although why we would want to write a human brain is beyond me. None of the games you name are mmos. And fyi, if you play dota and have crappy items or gimped levels, you lose. If I get fed as a carry I can 1v5 and your team is shit out of luck.
Furthermore every single game people name as a "skill" game have tiny timespans. 2 hours tops.
If you wanted to play quake why not just play quake?
Try and play starcraft with 10000 people with a timespan of infinity. Now tell me whether the game is based on player skills or length of time played. That's what I thought.
Originally posted by RefMinor Originally posted by ForumPvP
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by ForumPvP
Originally posted by Robokapp some games are. they're called 'real-time strategy'. Most mmo players seek a different style of gameplay, however. Chess is the interesting one...out of your list its the only turn-based game. there's nothing real-time about chess. Also no RNG. its 100% skill-based. that's why it's around for longer than the Printing Press.
theres nothing real-time about chess? since when thinking came turnbased? when masters play the game ,it might look like turn based,but i can tell you,they do alot of real time playing in their minds. No it's still turn based, they can think 20 moves ahead, and then because it is turn based discard all that thinking and head in a different direction, because they hadn't taken their turn yet. after 20 moves on chess table?? there would be about infinite possibilies,and you dont need to think ? after 3 theres like millions. You have played chess before? One player moves a piece and his turn ends, I can then go to the toilet, head out for dinner or stare at the board, however, nothing at all changes until I lift a piece and move it, thus ending my turn. It's turn based, it's unarguable. Really? I move 3 or 4 pieces at once! Doesn't everybody? Who needs turns? lol
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
These are pretty common features in modern MMOs such as WoW, Rift, even some of the older ones have thse features.
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"
I see that you are repeating yourself between the above 2 paragraphs. In the 1st you talk about how players who play get better, and in the 2nd paragraph you talk about palyers who play get better
Was that what you were trying to reiterate? You play the game and you improve?
Now if you are talking about EVE, well then I guess you can say you get rewarded for time played. But I thought EVE's systems of rewarding players for time spend worked?
And yeah, I do enjoy co-ordinating with 4 to 19 other people in order to accomplish a goal in game that we were unable to accompish our selves and without properly working off eachothers strengths.
why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.
I agree that an MMORPG that would reward based on time spent is kinda stupid. Which game is that though? I am not sure I have seen those. But yeah, I can imagine logging in sitting on the steps in your capital city's steps chatting away getting showered with epics with nowhere to use them would get old quickly.
You should get into an MMO wher eyou have to play the game to get gear....You know...like group up and go into and instance and maybe USE your time to PLAY the game
As for why you keep going? Well, you know that guy in your group? You know the one who helped you get your gear? Yeah, he wants his too. But that's how it works. You help each other and every one gets rewarded. And it's fun when you contributed something to a group and watch everyone get better and better over time.
im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance. PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games.
I can imagine how it would feel to log into an MMO queue up for PVP and everyone stood around like it's some ind of bus stop waiting for PVP gear to be delivered.
But again, there are many MMOs that aren't like that at all. You should check them out. Some of them are actually popular titles like WoW and Rift.
You can log into the game, queue up for PVP and actually fight other players. Granted, some of it needs some work here or there, but at least they aren't rewarding you simply for time spent in game. And they can be fun as you iprove and get better by playing.
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"
why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.
im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance. PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games.
In another words you arent into MMORPG's. Got it. MMORPG's are thier own style of game. Period. End of story. You are trying to compare non-MMORPG's to MMORPG's. Doesnt work. You like apples. I like Oranges. Thats fine but you cant make an apple an orange.
Completing content, even repetitive content is a little more than just spending time in game. Until video games are able to go beyond reflecting a players characters abilities via levels, skill points, tokens, etc, there is no other real way (except for a bloody cash shop) to step away from this design.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
I agree with you as long as your game ends every hour or so and you must start completely over just like the games in your example. You must also only ever play on the same playing field and use regulation hardware that is the same as everyone else (ie: no super gaming computers, no special gaming peripherals, same sized monitors). Everyone must play with the same bandwidth and latency.
You have fun with that one. I'll still to progression based RPGs as my MMO and single player game hobby because that's what interests me. When I want to play sports I go play real sports not "e-sport" video games.
This so much. Why do people compare MMOs to games that are not remotely the same genre.
The feeling of fun IS a conditioned reward. It might not be as explicit as a shiny though.
The reason that everyone in games are the same is the fault of player skill whiners. Games had to homogenize to make themselves "fair". So whining that everyone in MMOs is the same when its the fault of "skill" obsessed players themselves is pretty ironic.
skill based gameplay would make everyone different not similar. i dont know how you can even make this claim when there isnt a single mmorpg out that is thoroughly based on player skill.
im assuming you are referring to the homogenisation of classes in themepark mmorpgs like WOW, RIFT etc. im sorry to break it to you but these mmorpgs are not about player skill. the skill cap is very very low.
when i say player skill i mean games like quake 3, starcraft, dota, countersrtike, chess etc etc. no one is the same in these games because player input effects the outcome of gameplay so much more than a elements from the game itself --> examples: health points, mana points, spell damage, dodge change, crit chance etc.
real humans will always be more complex, unique and different and different character definged by a small types/number of bunch of programmed stats. try representing a humans intelligence using the RPG stats? its impossible, the best you can do is assign a number like 122 intelligence.
programming a human brain will require trillions of lines code and that is ignoreing creativity and ingenuity. there is not stat for creativity in RPGs. why not give players the tools to use their creativity in a game. why rely on stats, gear, damage, HP etc to create diversity when you have a fucking goldmine known as the human brain waiting to be exploited.
Homogenized classes are the result of fair trolls. Wah wah game isn't fair.
Writing a human brain would not take a trillion lines of code. Although why we would want to write a human brain is beyond me. None of the games you name are mmos. And fyi, if you play dota and have crappy items or gimped levels, you lose. If I get fed as a carry I can 1v5 and your team is shit out of luck.
Furthermore every single game people name as a "skill" game have tiny timespans. 2 hours tops.
If you wanted to play quake why not just play quake?
Try and play starcraft with 10000 people with a timespan of infinity. Now tell me whether the game is based on player skills or length of time played. That's what I thought.
in dota you lose if you are behind in levels/items but you are not rewarded by time spent since everyone is given the same amount of time to attain these levels and items. it is your descisions made
ofc starcraft played with 10000 players with infinite timespan will be about time spent more so than player skill. this is because it is designed to be players in a short time span. games can be designed to work on a longer time scale without heavily rewarding time spend.
example:
-replace darkfall and EVEs skill system with a WOW/RIFT style skill system except allow for multiclassing whilst keeping a cap on the max no. of skills able to be learn. you just removed that 2 years of advantage that those long time players had and you have a mmorpg that is fairly heavily based on player skill, it only takes a week or 2 to get all of your skills.
-remove raid/pvp grind based gear progression. make gear more easily attainable and provide the players a large choice of gear of similar strength rather than a small choice of gear but of different strenghts organised in tiers. that way your characters strength is based on what you choose to equip it with (kind of like DoTA) rather than how much time u spend grinding. in DoTA there are different items you can choose and it is the developers attention to make them equal in strength. the difference between a good and bad player in DoTA is often is item choices under certain circumstances. why dont MMORPGs try and emulate this type of gameplay, it is excellent.
id really like to know cuathon what style of game you would prefer regardless of whether it is feasible or not. do you prefer time based rewards or player skill/descision based rewards?
I find this topic to be quite funny. People in real life get rewarded for time spent all the time, they also get rewarded for loyalty and for just being old.
Yet for games some people think its wrong except when it comes to anything involving wow.
Instant lv80 character >>"that's carebear and wrong" they say.
WoW is too easy and carebear...they just give loot away!!!
Insteresting to see how the coin flips when the game you like does the same thing you hated just a few months ago!
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
The feeling of fun IS a conditioned reward. It might not be as explicit as a shiny though.
The reason that everyone in games are the same is the fault of player skill whiners. Games had to homogenize to make themselves "fair". So whining that everyone in MMOs is the same when its the fault of "skill" obsessed players themselves is pretty ironic.
skill based gameplay would make everyone different not similar. i dont know how you can even make this claim when there isnt a single mmorpg out that is thoroughly based on player skill.
im assuming you are referring to the homogenisation of classes in themepark mmorpgs like WOW, RIFT etc. im sorry to break it to you but these mmorpgs are not about player skill. the skill cap is very very low.
when i say player skill i mean games like quake 3, starcraft, dota, countersrtike, chess etc etc. no one is the same in these games because player input effects the outcome of gameplay so much more than a elements from the game itself --> examples: health points, mana points, spell damage, dodge change, crit chance etc.
real humans will always be more complex, unique and different and different character definged by a small types/number of bunch of programmed stats. try representing a humans intelligence using the RPG stats? its impossible, the best you can do is assign a number like 122 intelligence.
programming a human brain will require trillions of lines code and that is ignoreing creativity and ingenuity. there is not stat for creativity in RPGs. why not give players the tools to use their creativity in a game. why rely on stats, gear, damage, HP etc to create diversity when you have a fucking goldmine known as the human brain waiting to be exploited.
Homogenized classes are the result of fair trolls. Wah wah game isn't fair.
Writing a human brain would not take a trillion lines of code. Although why we would want to write a human brain is beyond me. None of the games you name are mmos. And fyi, if you play dota and have crappy items or gimped levels, you lose. If I get fed as a carry I can 1v5 and your team is shit out of luck.
Furthermore every single game people name as a "skill" game have tiny timespans. 2 hours tops.
If you wanted to play quake why not just play quake?
Try and play starcraft with 10000 people with a timespan of infinity. Now tell me whether the game is based on player skills or length of time played. That's what I thought.
in dota you lose if you are behind in levels/items but you are not rewarded by time spent since everyone is given the same amount of time to attain these levels and items. it is your descisions made
a dota game rarely lasts longer than an hour. its still based primarily on time spent, its just a time limit that is easier for players to get full use of.
ofc starcraft played with 10000 players with infinite timespan will be about time spent more so than player skill. this is because it is designed to be players in a short time span. games can be designed to work on a longer time scale without heavily rewarding time spend.
then why did you list starcraft as a viable example if its not at all comparable?
example:
-replace darkfall and EVEs skill system with a WOW/RIFT style skill system except allow for multiclassing whilst keeping a cap on the max no. of skills able to be learn. you just removed that 2 years of advantage that those long time players had and you have a mmorpg that is fairly heavily based on player skill, it only takes a week or 2 to get all of your skills.
Economy is nearly as important as skills in EvE. Economy is inherently uncappable.
-remove raid/pvp grind based gear progression. make gear more easily attainable and provide the players a large choice of gear of similar strength rather than a small choice of gear but of different strenghts organised in tiers. that way your characters strength is based on what you choose to equip it with (kind of like DoTA) rather than how much time u spend grinding. in DoTA there are different items you can choose and it is the developers attention to make them equal in strength. the difference between a good and bad player in DoTA is often is item choices under certain circumstances. why dont MMORPGs try and emulate this type of gameplay, it is excellent.
Because for the last time DOTA is a strictly time limited game. Each time you play dota you start over. In DOTA you progress constantly based on your decisions. Games in DOTA almost never reach the point where its impossible to progress by getting more levels or items. Further every single player in a DOTA game starts at the same time at the same level.
id really like to know cuathon what style of game you would prefer regardless of whether it is feasible or not. do you prefer time based rewards or player skill/descision based rewards?
Player skills is unfair. Unless you are using an arena based matchmaking system you aren't going to be vs equal enemies all the time. In the case that you had that, the game would be DOTA and not an MMO.
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Would I be correct in summarizing this thread as: "I like to play in style X. Style X should get the most rewards!"
So did I miss something? I can't think of any MMO that just gives you exp or loot for being logged on... Not sure what the OP is going on about.
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
Being rewarded for playing a game is stupid anyway.
wtf are gamers? Dogs? Here boy (whistles) fetch! Go get it! yeaa good gamer, youre a good gamer arent you! good boy!
**** off. I dont need your stupid my little pony quest armor Ill make my own.
Humans do everything based on conditioning. So your argument is silly.
Thats the point isnt it? +1 for you.
Point is this. Reward for playing a game is all mental BS, if you kill this digital figure you get X, you get killed by this digital figure you get zip. You spend 12 hours per day trying to get item X for time vested and basically pointless effort, at the end of the day (if you meet the criteria or odds) you have a digital item that has no value whatsoever to anyone. You dont even own the account youre playing so, Let me channel morpheus. You think you own the space youre typing in? O.o People can have fun with the water hose or sprinklers outside, thats not conditioned; kids do it all on their own. They even build with the mud from the water leaked from the previous game of water spashing. It happens with very little thought. Horses kick balls around the yard, no one directs them to do so. There is no training for that. You just drop a ball in the yard. Look for the lightbulb.
Chew on it for a minute, its all silly, why should you waste your time with this sub or that to company X or company Y? Thats what youre being told and sold. Its all digital imagery with goal = X, I dont care how much you spin it, redraw it. Crafting, raiding, exploring, Questing... just standing there in a digital world is the sum of actions performed through real world methods via x,y,z.; moreover and more specifically, a prescribed and planned path of direction and rules you agree to adhere to in order to play the game. Why though? How big a deal is it all and why should people care? You decide.
Silly is also subjective, what is fun? fun can be silly. Silly can be fun. Is what you consider fun, silly? Maybe silly is the game I play on these forums. [Mod Edit]
Few people do anything just for the hell of it.
Humans do almost everything in life for the "reward" it returns to them. Reward comes in all sorts of forms besides armor btw.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Just because you don't understand the conditioning, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Most humans gravitate towards certain kinds of foods. They weren't taught by society though right? But they were taught by the environment many many years ago. Fats "taste good" because they were valuable nutritional sources. People eat fats to get the reward, a pleasant taste.
[Mod Edit]
The main question is if you are not rewarded at all will you play mmorpg? The problem is everyone spent a different amount of time playing mmorpg.
Let's say I play 20 hours a week. Mmorpg rewards are only given for raids and arena. And my raid team and pvp team only spent a total of 3 hours a week doing it. What am I going to do the other 17 hours?
Cut out the baiting guys.
from replies posted in this thread it seems people
- do things for rewards. they seem to have forgotten about doing things because it is fun. i think it is very sad that this is what video games have come to "im only going to do activity x if i get shiny y". i dont blame the players completely, it is a side effect of the tastleless and boring gameplay of modern mmorpgs
- beleive/have come to accept that mmorpgs are about time based progression and this is the way it is meant to be. i think it would be more meaningful if you posted whether or not you preffered time based progression or not. we as consumers have the power to change how progression works in mmorpgs.
- think that rewarding descision making, reflex &manual dexterity, strategy, knowledge etc is the same as rewarding time spent as these skills can be developed with time. one of the points i made was the not everyone develops these skills at the same rate or to the same level. another advantage of mmorpgs being based on your own abilities is that everyone will be different. how often do you see two human beings in real life that have exactly the same skills/abilities
- feel the time based rewards is required for mmorpgs to make money. arent themepark mmorpg forums full of QQ for casuals complaining that they dont get the same gear as raiders and "i wil quiet dis gaem if i dont get dat shiny" threads. have a look at league of legends, it is not a mmorpg but it has some similarities. it is extremely popular and players are pretty much on a level playing field. I guess gw2 will be show us whether non time based reward mechanics are financially viable or not.
after saying all of this im fairly aware there will always be some elements of time based rewards in any game but i really dont think it should be the focus. time based rewards = bang yer head against a wall until your head breaks through the wall then start on the next wall. if you like it this way thats great, there are plenty of mmorpgs out there that fit your playstyle. i personally dont think this time of reward mechanics is healthy or fun.
from what i have seen gw2 seems to strike a nice balance between time based rewards and player skill/teamwork. you level up to max level (time based progression) and then its just about developing your skills as a player and a team, not getting the next tier of raid/pvp gear.
correct! this is the essence of debate/discussion -- taking into consideration that i made arguments backing up my views (something you forgot to mention)
feel free to state your viewpoint (rather than pointing out the obvious)
The feeling of fun IS a conditioned reward. It might not be as explicit as a shiny though.
The reason that everyone in games are the same is the fault of player skill whiners. Games had to homogenize to make themselves "fair". So whining that everyone in MMOs is the same when its the fault of "skill" obsessed players themselves is pretty ironic.
skill based gameplay would make everyone different not similar. i dont know how you can even make this claim when there isnt a single mmorpg out that is thoroughly based on player skill. the only thing close is darkfall or EVE but raising your RPG skills takes so long and provides a huge advantage.
im assuming you are referring to the homogenisation of classes in themepark mmorpgs like WOW, RIFT etc. im sorry to break it to you but these mmorpgs are not about player skill. the skill cap is very very low.
when i say player skill i mean games like quake 3, starcraft, dota, countersrtike, chess etc etc. no one is the same in these games because player input effects the outcome of gameplay so much more than a elements from the game itself --> examples: health points, mana points, spell damage, dodge change, crit chance etc.
real humans will always be more complex, unique and different than a character defined by a small types/number of bunch of programmed stats. try representing a humans intelligence using the RPG stats? its impossible, the best you can do is assign a number like 122 intelligence.
programming a human brain will require trillions of lines code and that is ignoreing creativity and ingenuity. there is not stat for creativity in RPGs. why not give players the tools to use their creativity in a game. why rely on stats, gear, damage, HP etc to create diversity when you have a fucking goldmine known as the human brain waiting to be exploited.
Homogenized classes are the result of fair trolls. Wah wah game isn't fair.
Writing a human brain would not take a trillion lines of code. Although why we would want to write a human brain is beyond me. None of the games you name are mmos. And fyi, if you play dota and have crappy items or gimped levels, you lose. If I get fed as a carry I can 1v5 and your team is shit out of luck.
Furthermore every single game people name as a "skill" game have tiny timespans. 2 hours tops.
If you wanted to play quake why not just play quake?
Try and play starcraft with 10000 people with a timespan of infinity. Now tell me whether the game is based on player skills or length of time played. That's what I thought.
since when thinking came turnbased? when masters play the game ,it might look like turn based,but i can tell you,they do alot of real time playing in their minds.
No it's still turn based, they can think 20 moves ahead, and then because it is turn based discard all that thinking and head in a different direction, because they hadn't taken their turn yet.
after 20 moves on chess table?? there would be about infinite possibilies,and you dont need to think ?
after 3 theres like millions.
You have played chess before? One player moves a piece and his turn ends, I can then go to the toilet, head out for dinner or stare at the board, however, nothing at all changes until I lift a piece and move it, thus ending my turn. It's turn based, it's unarguable.
Really? I move 3 or 4 pieces at once! Doesn't everybody? Who needs turns? lol
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
games should reward players based on
-the descicions they make
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
These are pretty common features in modern MMOs such as WoW, Rift, even some of the older ones have thse features.
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"
I see that you are repeating yourself between the above 2 paragraphs. In the 1st you talk about how players who play get better, and in the 2nd paragraph you talk about palyers who play get better
Was that what you were trying to reiterate? You play the game and you improve?
Now if you are talking about EVE, well then I guess you can say you get rewarded for time played. But I thought EVE's systems of rewarding players for time spend worked?
And yeah, I do enjoy co-ordinating with 4 to 19 other people in order to accomplish a goal in game that we were unable to accompish our selves and without properly working off eachothers strengths.
why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.
I agree that an MMORPG that would reward based on time spent is kinda stupid. Which game is that though? I am not sure I have seen those. But yeah, I can imagine logging in sitting on the steps in your capital city's steps chatting away getting showered with epics with nowhere to use them would get old quickly.
You should get into an MMO wher eyou have to play the game to get gear....You know...like group up and go into and instance and maybe USE your time to PLAY the game
As for why you keep going? Well, you know that guy in your group? You know the one who helped you get your gear? Yeah, he wants his too. But that's how it works. You help each other and every one gets rewarded. And it's fun when you contributed something to a group and watch everyone get better and better over time.
im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance. PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games.
I can imagine how it would feel to log into an MMO queue up for PVP and everyone stood around like it's some ind of bus stop waiting for PVP gear to be delivered.
But again, there are many MMOs that aren't like that at all. You should check them out. Some of them are actually popular titles like WoW and Rift.
You can log into the game, queue up for PVP and actually fight other players. Granted, some of it needs some work here or there, but at least they aren't rewarding you simply for time spent in game. And they can be fun as you iprove and get better by playing.
In another words you arent into MMORPG's. Got it. MMORPG's are thier own style of game. Period. End of story. You are trying to compare non-MMORPG's to MMORPG's. Doesnt work. You like apples. I like Oranges. Thats fine but you cant make an apple an orange.
Whoops! Sorry!
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Didn't know you could see through the monitor.
Completing content, even repetitive content is a little more than just spending time in game. Until video games are able to go beyond reflecting a players characters abilities via levels, skill points, tokens, etc, there is no other real way (except for a bloody cash shop) to step away from this design.
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This so much. Why do people compare MMOs to games that are not remotely the same genre.
We know that you are a master at it.
in dota you lose if you are behind in levels/items but you are not rewarded by time spent since everyone is given the same amount of time to attain these levels and items. it is your descisions made
ofc starcraft played with 10000 players with infinite timespan will be about time spent more so than player skill. this is because it is designed to be players in a short time span. games can be designed to work on a longer time scale without heavily rewarding time spend.
example:
-replace darkfall and EVEs skill system with a WOW/RIFT style skill system except allow for multiclassing whilst keeping a cap on the max no. of skills able to be learn. you just removed that 2 years of advantage that those long time players had and you have a mmorpg that is fairly heavily based on player skill, it only takes a week or 2 to get all of your skills.
-remove raid/pvp grind based gear progression. make gear more easily attainable and provide the players a large choice of gear of similar strength rather than a small choice of gear but of different strenghts organised in tiers. that way your characters strength is based on what you choose to equip it with (kind of like DoTA) rather than how much time u spend grinding. in DoTA there are different items you can choose and it is the developers attention to make them equal in strength. the difference between a good and bad player in DoTA is often is item choices under certain circumstances. why dont MMORPGs try and emulate this type of gameplay, it is excellent.
id really like to know cuathon what style of game you would prefer regardless of whether it is feasible or not. do you prefer time based rewards or player skill/descision based rewards?
I mean let's just cut the crap right?
And admit that this is just one big troll post for that new MMO on the horizon.
The one where the more I watch vides of it, the more I feel like I am back at my daughter's Pre-K soccer games.
Where no one was really any good at the game so they didn't bother to keep score so everyone could be a winner.
Jeez, it's the "No Child Left Behind" of MMOs
I find this topic to be quite funny. People in real life get rewarded for time spent all the time, they also get rewarded for loyalty and for just being old.
Yet for games some people think its wrong except when it comes to anything involving wow.
Instant lv80 character >>"that's carebear and wrong" they say.
WoW is too easy and carebear...they just give loot away!!!
Insteresting to see how the coin flips when the game you like does the same thing you hated just a few months ago!
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Player skills is unfair. Unless you are using an arena based matchmaking system you aren't going to be vs equal enemies all the time. In the case that you had that, the game would be DOTA and not an MMO.
If you like DOTA play DOTA.