-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
agree with everything except the market thing, sometimes the player market gets in the way of the game instead of helps the players.
Not to mention the market ie Auction House really only reaps reward in the form of currency when one gathers resources or farms kills till a drop occurs which in essence is what you say you are against, rewards for time spent.
What about ppl who dont see instanced pvp as competitive? As someone metioned before, ppl want to have advantage with their natural talents. Fans of instanced pvp usually play lotsa action games and have good eye-hand reflexes and current-minute tactics. But what about ppl who have good social skills? Why cant they rely on their talent and bring a zerg to take bullet for them? Why cant good marketeers use their talent and buy more good consumables/gears for their guild to get an advantage? Why cant good strategist chose place of battle which is suitable for his plans? Why cant good tactician use plan which works in long terms but require one more player in team that allowed for instanced arena? Instanced pvp which force all to use equipment and consumables of same quality just simplify mmorpg into action game. Its not skill-based way its limited-kind-of-skills based one. Praise fast ppl with good connection and screw everyone else.
and to OP:
You mentioned "strategy and knowledge during combat,
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships,
-their ability to play the market and reap gains" but didnt say how excatly should ppl gain advantage from them without overtime progression.
Progression lets you make unique build for your character and if game is time -consuming nobody will be able to get same character at next day. You'll have an upper hand just because you are smarter planner. Smart plan lets you create better leveling way, which allow you get to high level and wear better gear while stupider ppl are still in mid-levels and undergeared. Time-consuming game can reward smart ppl, skilled ppl. Time-management is a skill too, you know? Problems start when game is dumb and doesnt allow any smart ways for quick leveling or ways to beat 200ppl zerg with 50ppl team. But its not a grind what makes game bad its a stupid mechanics which dont let you get away from long grind by being smart. Its not a zerg or overpowered equipment what makes pvp bad its mechanics which dont let smart player beat crap out of enemy with 20 more levels and 3 times better equipment.
I remeber entering arena with pure-support charater with 85lv and cheap equip and mop the floor with uber-ranged-dps character with 99lv (cap) and crazy expensive equip. It was not exceptional situation, it was normal for that game. Good game punished him for being dumber and less-skilled. Vertical progression does not necessary kill competition, its just much easier for developers to make simple game where higher level and better gear win all the time.
I dont say that overtime progression is totally good, it just gives more opportunities for showing more talents. You dont really see great economist with slow-reflexes winning FPS tournament, right?
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
agree with everything except the market thing, sometimes the player market gets in the way of the game instead of helps the players.
Not to mention the market ie Auction House really only reaps reward in the form of currency when one gathers resources or farms kills till a drop occurs which in essence is what you say you are against, rewards for time spent.
All the mentioned above things are viable for both gear and non gear based MMOS.
I like the idea of being rewarded for my time spent playing a game. I don't like the idea of playing a game and having everyone have the same everything. There has to be something to be earned for me, being rewarded is fun in my opinion. Grinding for a long time for that one last level is always a giant payoff when you get it. Or that one peice of gear you have been trying to get forever and doing tons of stuff in game and investing tons of time for it, and finally getting it. Oh man that is awesome.
That is fine, though it is the exact opposite of how I feel. Grinding for a level does not feel like a giant payoff in any way for me, nor does getting a new piece of gear that I knew I could get if I did x dungeon enough times.
You are a through and through progressionist. Every themepark mmorpg is made for you.
Sandbox mmorpgs tend to be highly appealing to socializers.
I like the idea of being rewarded for my time spent playing a game. I don't like the idea of playing a game and having everyone have the same everything. There has to be something to be earned for me, being rewarded is fun in my opinion. Grinding for a long time for that one last level is always a giant payoff when you get it. Or that one peice of gear you have been trying to get forever and doing tons of stuff in game and investing tons of time for it, and finally getting it. Oh man that is awesome.
That is fine, though it is the exact opposite of how I feel. Grinding for a level does not feel like a giant payoff in any way for me, nor does getting a new piece of gear that I knew I could get if I did x dungeon enough times.
You are a through and through progressionist. Every themepark mmorpg is made for you.
Sandbox mmorpgs tend to be highly appealing to socializers.
There are no mmorpgs for the rest of us.
Sure there are. MOBAs. All the player skill you could desire.
By all means... beat a game in a week or less and stop playing it forever... the publishers will LOVE you. (Especially if the pay plan is a subscription model)
/end sarcasm
EDIT: not to mention one of the key aspects of videogames is an escape from reality. Which can imply a reward system based on time only, because a lot of people have jobs or school where time spent on something: means absolutely nothing...
Skill based play is just as dependent on the player investing sufficient amounts of time to actually get any good, and in a heavily skill based environment playing regularly is even more important to keep up and stay on top of your game. In that regard it's no different from the regular RPG mechanics.
People have different playstyles and preferences, and thats fine enough, but to argue the fundamentals of something is wrong because you personally aren't a fan gets kinda wrong. Either find something better suited or hope someone makes something more to your taste. Although the variations and solutions can be done in many different ways, building a character is what the RPG genera is about. To do that it needs goals, both short and long term, as well as rewards to motivate and give you purpose. But it can be about so much more than what we normally get today.
I think the biggest problem today is that people seem more concerned with blazing through an MMO and get to the end as fast as possible and look at the actual journey there as little else than an obstacle. Usually bacuse it is. A fault that lies with players and developers alike I think.
Personally I'd like to see more freeform MMO's that give you more than one way to make your place in the world and advance. Make it more about the journey than actually getting to an end. I mean, I have a lot less time to spend on MMO's since I became a "responsible" adult.. but god knows I'd like a big and lenghty experience where people move along at their own pace with different goals and purposes instead of everyone just rushing to some sort of defined "ending".
So basically you want to eliminate progression? WIthin your concept of an MMORPG, dedication, persistence, practice, hard work, etc. are all non-existent elements? A blacksmith that forged 50 swords naturally should be more experienced and more skilled at sword making than a blacksmith that has forged one or two swords. That is time spent in game and like it or not, rewarding someone for dedicating themselves to something MAKES SENSE.
I wonder if "reward" is even the right term, when it comes to RPG progression. Sure, some games make it that way, but I think for a lot of people who enjoy leveling up, it's not necessarily about being rewarded. It's more like moving forward through a story, enjoying the mechanic of seeing what comes next. It's just a type of gameplay some people enjoy.
I think that's what's at its RPG roots, but the MMO genre has sucked so much of the fun out of it, by turning it into more of a treadmill, making it entirely predictable. It's so controled and balanced, it becomes all so same-old same-old. It's like if you had a story-based game, where you know exactly how the story will play out, but you still need to go through the motions. Maybe that's when progress ceases being a fun journey, and all about the reward system.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
By all means... beat a game in a week or less and stop playing it forever... the publishers will LOVE you. (Especially if the pay plan is a subscription model)
/end sarcasm
EDIT: not to mention one of the key aspects of videogames is an escape from reality. Which can imply a reward system based on time only, because a lot of people have jobs or school where time spent on something: means absolutely nothing...
That's why the subscription model is just as flawed (or more so, imo) than the cash shop model.
Also, my wife and unborn daughter disagree that my job means absolutely nothing.
Comments
agree with everything except the market thing, sometimes the player market gets in the way of the game instead of helps the players.
Not to mention the market ie Auction House really only reaps reward in the form of currency when one gathers resources or farms kills till a drop occurs which in essence is what you say you are against, rewards for time spent.
What about ppl who dont see instanced pvp as competitive? As someone metioned before, ppl want to have advantage with their natural talents. Fans of instanced pvp usually play lotsa action games and have good eye-hand reflexes and current-minute tactics. But what about ppl who have good social skills? Why cant they rely on their talent and bring a zerg to take bullet for them? Why cant good marketeers use their talent and buy more good consumables/gears for their guild to get an advantage? Why cant good strategist chose place of battle which is suitable for his plans? Why cant good tactician use plan which works in long terms but require one more player in team that allowed for instanced arena? Instanced pvp which force all to use equipment and consumables of same quality just simplify mmorpg into action game. Its not skill-based way its limited-kind-of-skills based one. Praise fast ppl with good connection and screw everyone else.
and to OP:
You mentioned "strategy and knowledge during combat,
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships,
-their ability to play the market and reap gains" but didnt say how excatly should ppl gain advantage from them without overtime progression.
Progression lets you make unique build for your character and if game is time -consuming nobody will be able to get same character at next day. You'll have an upper hand just because you are smarter planner. Smart plan lets you create better leveling way, which allow you get to high level and wear better gear while stupider ppl are still in mid-levels and undergeared. Time-consuming game can reward smart ppl, skilled ppl. Time-management is a skill too, you know? Problems start when game is dumb and doesnt allow any smart ways for quick leveling or ways to beat 200ppl zerg with 50ppl team. But its not a grind what makes game bad its a stupid mechanics which dont let you get away from long grind by being smart. Its not a zerg or overpowered equipment what makes pvp bad its mechanics which dont let smart player beat crap out of enemy with 20 more levels and 3 times better equipment.
I remeber entering arena with pure-support charater with 85lv and cheap equip and mop the floor with uber-ranged-dps character with 99lv (cap) and crazy expensive equip. It was not exceptional situation, it was normal for that game. Good game punished him for being dumber and less-skilled. Vertical progression does not necessary kill competition, its just much easier for developers to make simple game where higher level and better gear win all the time.
I dont say that overtime progression is totally good, it just gives more opportunities for showing more talents. You dont really see great economist with slow-reflexes winning FPS tournament, right?
All the mentioned above things are viable for both gear and non gear based MMOS.
That is fine, though it is the exact opposite of how I feel. Grinding for a level does not feel like a giant payoff in any way for me, nor does getting a new piece of gear that I knew I could get if I did x dungeon enough times.
You are a through and through progressionist. Every themepark mmorpg is made for you.
Sandbox mmorpgs tend to be highly appealing to socializers.
There are no mmorpgs for the rest of us.
Sure there are. MOBAs. All the player skill you could desire.
Is this thread for real?
By all means... beat a game in a week or less and stop playing it forever... the publishers will LOVE you. (Especially if the pay plan is a subscription model)
/end sarcasm
EDIT: not to mention one of the key aspects of videogames is an escape from reality. Which can imply a reward system based on time only, because a lot of people have jobs or school where time spent on something: means absolutely nothing...
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
Skill based play is just as dependent on the player investing sufficient amounts of time to actually get any good, and in a heavily skill based environment playing regularly is even more important to keep up and stay on top of your game. In that regard it's no different from the regular RPG mechanics.
People have different playstyles and preferences, and thats fine enough, but to argue the fundamentals of something is wrong because you personally aren't a fan gets kinda wrong. Either find something better suited or hope someone makes something more to your taste. Although the variations and solutions can be done in many different ways, building a character is what the RPG genera is about. To do that it needs goals, both short and long term, as well as rewards to motivate and give you purpose. But it can be about so much more than what we normally get today.
I think the biggest problem today is that people seem more concerned with blazing through an MMO and get to the end as fast as possible and look at the actual journey there as little else than an obstacle. Usually bacuse it is. A fault that lies with players and developers alike I think.
Personally I'd like to see more freeform MMO's that give you more than one way to make your place in the world and advance. Make it more about the journey than actually getting to an end. I mean, I have a lot less time to spend on MMO's since I became a "responsible" adult.. but god knows I'd like a big and lenghty experience where people move along at their own pace with different goals and purposes instead of everyone just rushing to some sort of defined "ending".
So basically you want to eliminate progression? WIthin your concept of an MMORPG, dedication, persistence, practice, hard work, etc. are all non-existent elements? A blacksmith that forged 50 swords naturally should be more experienced and more skilled at sword making than a blacksmith that has forged one or two swords. That is time spent in game and like it or not, rewarding someone for dedicating themselves to something MAKES SENSE.
I wonder if "reward" is even the right term, when it comes to RPG progression. Sure, some games make it that way, but I think for a lot of people who enjoy leveling up, it's not necessarily about being rewarded. It's more like moving forward through a story, enjoying the mechanic of seeing what comes next. It's just a type of gameplay some people enjoy.
I think that's what's at its RPG roots, but the MMO genre has sucked so much of the fun out of it, by turning it into more of a treadmill, making it entirely predictable. It's so controled and balanced, it becomes all so same-old same-old. It's like if you had a story-based game, where you know exactly how the story will play out, but you still need to go through the motions. Maybe that's when progress ceases being a fun journey, and all about the reward system.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
That's why the subscription model is just as flawed (or more so, imo) than the cash shop model.
Also, my wife and unborn daughter disagree that my job means absolutely nothing.