MMOs players seek a very different experience to people who play RTS, FPS, sports etc. MMO players don't want competitive PvP they want character progression and they want to have large scale fights even though these turn into nothing more than zergfests.
I would love if WoW allowed people to have access to all gear in their arenas. Arenas in WoW have the potential to be very competitive especially 5v5 but they are so unbalanced because of gear. GW2 is trying to put everybody on an equal terms eliminating the problems GW1 had. So that will reward skill not time spent. Winning will be down to the gear and skills choices you make and your skill.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
I agree with you as long as your game ends every hour or so and you must start completely over just like the games in your example. You must also only ever play on the same playing field and use regulation hardware that is the same as everyone else (ie: no super gaming computers, no special gaming peripherals, same sized monitors). Everyone must play with the same bandwidth and latency.
You have fun with that one. I'll stick to progression based RPGs as my MMO and single player game hobby because that's what interests me. When I want to play sports I go play real sports not "e-sport" video games.
edit: spelling -- it's my foe.
pushing mmorpgs away from time based rewards to skill based rewards is extemely feasible (i think gw2 is gonna have a shot at this, maybe TERA as well). mmorpgs will never be as skill based as esport type games but that doesnt mean they have to be all about who is a better basement dweller.
i think you are exaggerated the requirements for skill based gamplay and the fact is simply that you prefer time based rewards. that is great, there are plenty of game out their for your to play and enjoy but i dont think a mmorpg that focusses more on player skill rather than time will have to "end every hour or so....."
I hear people referring to "skill" based games all the time, but I am not sure what you mean by this. I often see it connected to "twitch" based combat, but I don't see how this is more skillfull than what I consider "thought" based combat. Every game requires skill. So, I've never understood the argument for "skill" based anything, since it is all skill based.
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"
why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.
im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance. PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games.
So should someone that works 16 hours a day and someone that works 16 hours a week be rewarded equally as well? How about rewarding someone for spending money in the cash shop, is that what you'd lilke to see?
It's not because the "no-lifers" are rewarded more in game that they're better than you in PvP. In most games they'd have vastly superior gear and would own you in a way not even somewhat funny. GW2 should be the closest thing to a level playing field as far as MMO's go since gear at cap is supposed to be somewhat equivalent no matter how you get it.
So should someone that works 16 hours a day and someone that works 16 hours a week be rewarded equally as well? How about rewarding someone for spending money in the cash shop, is that what you'd lilke to see?
Few points to make about this comment.
A) It's a beautiful irony that you compared MMO time spent to hourly work. That's exactly what the genre is turning into, and what I hope it moves away from.
I think everyone agrees people should be rewarded for effort to some degree, but those who are arguing against time based progression (that is, effort based progression) are really saying that many games require an unreasonable amount of time to become top tier, and that there is no other path to take. In some games, those who want challenging gameplay are also not allowed to participate in it until they have spent maybe 200-500 hours "paying their dues."
C) Many people who are pro cash shops do not want to be rewarded directly for spending money. They are looking for a means to reduce the unreasonable time requirements mmos currently have.
So should someone that works 16 hours a day and someone that works 16 hours a week be rewarded equally as well? How about rewarding someone for spending money in the cash shop, is that what you'd lilke to see?
Few points to make about this comment.
A) It's a beautiful irony that you compared MMO time spent to hourly work. That's exactly what the genre is turning into, and what I hope it moves away from.
I think everyone agrees people should be rewarded for effort to some degree, but those who are arguing against time based progression (that is, effort based progression) are really saying that many games require an unreasonable amount of time to become top tier, and that there is no other path to take. In some games, those who want challenging gameplay are also not allowed to participate in it until they have spent maybe 200-500 hours "paying their dues."
C) Many people who are pro cash shops do not want to be rewarded directly for spending money. They are looking for a means to reduce the unreasonable time requirements mmos currently have.
I agree with Sythion. MMOs have turned into (or maybe they always were this way?) games which can pass as a second job. You spend an awful lot of time being bored doing some repetitive task (grind) in order to get to the fun stuff. I find MMOs unreasonable in terms of the time requirements they have. They are not games which you can play for say 5-6 hours a week because you will get no where and they are not really fun.
That's why I stopped playing MMOs a long time ago and I don't intend on playing an MMO again unless the ridiculously boring time sinks are removed. MMOs are boring but people just play them because of things like progression, "social interaction" etc. But at the end of the day MMOs are rarely fun.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
So should someone that works 16 hours a day and someone that works 16 hours a week be rewarded equally as well? How about rewarding someone for spending money in the cash shop, is that what you'd lilke to see?
Few points to make about this comment.
A) It's a beautiful irony that you compared MMO time spent to hourly work. That's exactly what the genre is turning into, and what I hope it moves away from.
I think everyone agrees people should be rewarded for effort to some degree, but those who are arguing against time based progression (that is, effort based progression) are really saying that many games require an unreasonable amount of time to become top tier, and that there is no other path to take. In some games, those who want challenging gameplay are also not allowed to participate in it until they have spent maybe 200-500 hours "paying their dues."
C) Many people who are pro cash shops do not want to be rewarded directly for spending money. They are looking for a means to reduce the unreasonable time requirements mmos currently have.
I agree with Sythion. MMOs have turned into (or maybe they always were this way?) games which can pass as a second job. You spend an awful lot of time being bored doing some repetitive task (grind) in order to get to the fun stuff. I find MMOs unreasonable in terms of the time requirements they have. They are not games which you can play for say 5-6 hours a week because you will get no where and they are not really fun.
That's why I stopped playing MMOs a long time ago and I don't intend on playing an MMO again unless the ridiculously boring time sinks are removed. MMOs are boring but people just play them because of things like progression, "social interaction" etc. But at the end of the day MMOs are rarely fun.
You have over a thousand posts on a website dedicated to Mmorpg's, and you are just now figuring out that they are ALL time sinks?
Would I be correct in summarizing this thread as: "I like to play in style X. Style X should get the most rewards!"
correct! this is the essence of debate/discussion -- taking into consideration that i made arguments backing up my views (something you forgot to mention)
feel free to state your viewpoint (rather than pointing out the obvious)
I come from a world where if I argue that world should work a certain way, it's because it provides the greatest good to the most people, not because it benefits me personally. In a discussion where everyone is being selfish, it's hard to feel motivated to offer help.
What most MMOs are selling is the illusion of ever-increasing wealth and power (give or take some setbacks along the way). It is hard to design one set of ostacles that keeps all players inside a narrow range between challenge and frustration. So it is inevitable that the broader the audience, the more the game drifts towards making all actions rewarding in some way.
If you want a game/minigame tailored to your ideal risk-reward ratio, then simply ask for it. Be honest about it, don't invent excuses that try to paint your position as somehow morally superior or reasons why everyone else who has a different ideal is wrong. Accept that until the gameplay stats prove you really are the majority, consider yourself a niche player and just ask for a niche where you feel motivated, not for the whole game be redesigned around you.
come on m8 ur talking shit, all you care about is yourself and maybe your closest family and friends.
i never painted myself as morally superior. this is just game preference it has nothing to do with morals rofl. all i said was the skill based rewards are better than time based rewards. wouldnt you rather be rewarded for your intelligence/skill rather than how many days you can take off work? alot of people seem to agree that grinding is not fun but they do it for rewards. i cant get my head around this , it just seems ridiculous to me. i play video games for fun and if im not having fun i simply do something else no matter how shiny the nest shiny is.
there cant be any gameplay stats that prove that skill based rewards are popular because no mmorpg has tried it yet. there are plenty of non-mmorpg games that reward players based on skill and they have more users than WOW eg. league of legends. how can you dismiss an idea if it hasnt even been tested?
you say league of legends reward people base on skill, what do they reward people in that game?
LoL is not totally skill based, there are levels for progression. These levels give you summoner points, glyph slots, new summoner abilities and access to better tier glyphs. A player that has played more WILL have an advantage.
yeh there is levels/runes but it doesnt take long to unlock enough to play a couple of champs. from then on in its horizontal progression. you are only paired against people of the same level as you anyway so its not big deal.
im not saying there should be NO time based rewards but MMORPGs should try and remove focus from them. LoL seemed like a good example. I could have pointed out DoTA which has 7-11 milllion unique downloads of the latest map, probably heaps more actual players and this game has no time based rewards whatsoever and you are saying there is no market for skill based rewards? the most popular games have skill based rewards, these players wouldnt touch mmorpgs because its really gay when you dont stand a chance because you havent undergone the tedious grind to get the latest raid/pvp gear.
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"
why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.
im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance. PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games.
All games? Every game that is made? No games ever should be based on progression? All games forever should fit your criteria?
Personally, I'm glad there is a variety of games, some based on skill, some based on progression (time in game).
Most gamers like them both.
i agree with what you are saying mostly.
except there really isnt any mmorpgs that rewards you based on how good you are, you get rewarded for simply spending time.
in themeparks, its all about logging in and grinding dailes, raids and for rep/badges.
in sandboxs, they ussually have some ridiculous skill system that takes 3 years to max out.
except there really isnt any mmorpgs that rewards you based on how good you are, you get rewarded for simply spending time.
in themeparks, its all about logging in and grinding dailes, raids and for rep/badges.
in sandboxs, they ussually have some ridiculous skill system that takes 3 years to max out.
ya but as long as there is rewards, you are automatically rewarded for time spend.
And if you reward people by making them stronger, you automatically give them an unfair advantage. The reward itself is the problem. That make the competition no longer purely skill based.
That being said the arena system world of warcraft have is probably the closest thing to a CORPG(competive online RPG). But there's many CORPG hater in this forum. They dont' believe in instanced pvp. And anyone who start doing wow arena now will be behind if they dont' have decent starter gear. You only need to play 1 hour a week to catch up, but it'll take you month to catch up.
except there really isnt any mmorpgs that rewards you based on how good you are, you get rewarded for simply spending time.
in themeparks, its all about logging in and grinding dailes, raids and for rep/badges.
in sandboxs, they ussually have some ridiculous skill system that takes 3 years to max out.
ya but as long as there is rewards, you are automatically rewarded for time spend.
And if you reward people by making them stronger, you automatically give them an unfair advantage. The reward itself is the problem. That make the competition no longer purely skill based.
That being said the arena system world of warcraft have is probably the closest thing to a CORPG(competive online RPG). But there's many CORPG hater in this forum. They dont' believe in instanced pvp. And anyone who start doing wow arena now will be behind if they dont' have decent starter gear. You only need to play 1 hour a week to catch up, but it'll take you month to catch up.
We believe in instanced PvP. Please do not lie about other people. We just believe that coop rpgs and mobas are separate genre's from MMOs and dilute the goal of MMOs. Why do MOBAs and COOP RPGs have to be shoved into MMOs? They were separated for a reason.
except there really isnt any mmorpgs that rewards you based on how good you are, you get rewarded for simply spending time.
in themeparks, its all about logging in and grinding dailes, raids and for rep/badges.
in sandboxs, they ussually have some ridiculous skill system that takes 3 years to max out.
ya but as long as there is rewards, you are automatically rewarded for time spend.
And if you reward people by making them stronger, you automatically give them an unfair advantage. The reward itself is the problem. That make the competition no longer purely skill based.
That being said the arena system world of warcraft have is probably the closest thing to a CORPG(competive online RPG). But there's many CORPG hater in this forum. They dont' believe in instanced pvp in an mmorpg. And anyone who start doing wow arena now will be behind if they dont' have decent starter gear. You only need to play 1 hour a week to catch up, but it'll take you month to catch up.
We believe in instanced PvP. Please do not lie about other people. We just believe that coop rpgs and mobas are separate genre's from MMOs and dilute the goal of MMOs. Why do MOBAs and COOP RPGs have to be shoved into MMOs? They were separated for a reason.
except there really isnt any mmorpgs that rewards you based on how good you are, you get rewarded for simply spending time.
in themeparks, its all about logging in and grinding dailes, raids and for rep/badges.
in sandboxs, they ussually have some ridiculous skill system that takes 3 years to max out.
ya but as long as there is rewards, you are automatically rewarded for time spend.
And if you reward people by making them stronger, you automatically give them an unfair advantage. The reward itself is the problem. That make the competition no longer purely skill based.
That being said the arena system world of warcraft have is probably the closest thing to a CORPG(competive online RPG). But there's many CORPG hater in this forum. They dont' believe in instanced pvp in an mmorpg. And anyone who start doing wow arena now will be behind if they dont' have decent starter gear. You only need to play 1 hour a week to catch up, but it'll take you month to catch up.
We believe in instanced PvP. Please do not lie about other people. We just believe that coop rpgs and mobas are separate genre's from MMOs and dilute the goal of MMOs. Why do MOBAs and COOP RPGs have to be shoved into MMOs? They were separated for a reason.
Problem solved? I presume that's implied.
Its not implied. themeparkers constantly claim that we hate all forms of instances when we are really saying that they dont belong in mmorpgs specifically. You showed your true colors when you refered to us as "haters". I have played 10 games of Hon today and some guild wars. Its VERY disingenuous to refer to us as haters.
i dont hate instanced pvp. i just think it shouldnt be the main focus. if you reward people for instanced pvp and dont reward them for world pvp then everyone just sits in battlegrounds and the game ceases to become a mmorpg.
i think instanced pvp is good as long as there are no rewards. maybe you could have a system where the teams/guiilds participating place money,items,gear as bets and whoever wins the instanced pvp match gets to take home all of the money,gear,items. that way there is no net gain from instanced pvp but it is still meaningful without forcing people to grind pvp instances.
this will also solve the probelm of time based rewards. good instanced pvp teams will only gain items. if you are not good you will never be rewarded anythinh no matter how long you play.
People usually just want to be rewarded for whatever they're already good at, and not for what they aren't.
If you have lots of time, you want it to be worth something, if you have lots of friends, you want a game that makes a virtue out of it, if your hand-eye coordination is good, you want a game that makes the most of it.. that's all fine, but the flipside of it bugs me, when people only want their own assets to be of any value, but think whatever others have should be worthless - or at best, just its own reward.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"
why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.
im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance. PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games.
Everything you said is completely wrong due to the fact in basketball that veteran players have higher salaries based on time spent in the league. Research next time before posting. There should always be rewards for time spent. It just depends on the level of reward.
People usually just want to be rewarded for whatever they're already good at, and not for what they aren't.
If you have lots of time, you want it to be worth something, if you have lots of friends, you want a game that makes a virtue out of it, if your hand-eye coordination is good, you want a game that makes the most of it.. that's all fine, but the flipside of it bugs me, when people only want their own assets to be of any value, but think whatever others have should be worthless - or at best, just its own reward.
well currently mmorpgs really only reward people who spend time and nothing else. rewarding people for spending time is ok as long as it is moderate and you also reward players for hand eye coordination, brains, reflexes, social skills etc etc most modern mmorpgs dont reward these skills and the strongest characters are those who have invested the most time doing mundane repitive tasks. dont you think it is stupid that people are rewarded for doing easy repetitive tasks that anyone can do. it seems very unintuiive to me, i mean you wouldnt pay a taxi driver as much an engineer?
People usually just want to be rewarded for whatever they're already good at, and not for what they aren't.
If you have lots of time, you want it to be worth something, if you have lots of friends, you want a game that makes a virtue out of it, if your hand-eye coordination is good, you want a game that makes the most of it.. that's all fine, but the flipside of it bugs me, when people only want their own assets to be of any value, but think whatever others have should be worthless - or at best, just its own reward.
well currently mmorpgs really only reward people who spend time and nothing else. rewarding people for spending time is ok as long as it is moderate and you also reward players for hand eye coordination, brains, reflexes, social skills etc etc most modern mmorpgs dont reward these skills and the strongest characters are those who have invested the most time doing mundane repitive tasks. dont you think it is stupid that people are rewarded for doing easy repetitive tasks that anyone can do. it seems very unintuiive to me, i mean you wouldnt pay a taxi driver as much an engineer?
The whole point of RPGs is that your real life has no effect on your capabilities. That's why they are roleplaying games. Some people do choose to incorporate their real life skills, but that is optional.
In any case any form of progression will always overpower skills. Because progression is eternal and skills are not. You cannot get linear permanently better.
In TTS I do set individual skills to have diminishing returns for training, but you can always train other related skills even if the bonus isnt as much as the first 100exp in a given skill its better than possible increases in player skill. Similarly economic power almost always expands over time unless you can lose it through combat. And it expands at a much greater rate than skill. If I am 10x as rich as you its almost impossible to surpass me even if you are 4x as smart.
Unless you cap character skills in which case you are effectively removing progression it time invested always matters more than skill. Its not a zero sum game but its very very close. One option always overwhelms the other.
except there really isnt any mmorpgs that rewards you based on how good you are, you get rewarded for simply spending time.
in themeparks, its all about logging in and grinding dailes, raids and for rep/badges.
in sandboxs, they ussually have some ridiculous skill system that takes 3 years to max out.
ya but as long as there is rewards, you are automatically rewarded for time spend.
And if you reward people by making them stronger, you automatically give them an unfair advantage. The reward itself is the problem. That make the competition no longer purely skill based.
That being said the arena system world of warcraft have is probably the closest thing to a CORPG(competive online RPG). But there's many CORPG hater in this forum. They dont' believe in instanced pvp in an mmorpg. And anyone who start doing wow arena now will be behind if they dont' have decent starter gear. You only need to play 1 hour a week to catch up, but it'll take you month to catch up.
We believe in instanced PvP. Please do not lie about other people. We just believe that coop rpgs and mobas are separate genre's from MMOs and dilute the goal of MMOs. Why do MOBAs and COOP RPGs have to be shoved into MMOs? They were separated for a reason.
Problem solved? I presume that's implied.
Its not implied. themeparkers constantly claim that we hate all forms of instances when we are really saying that they dont belong in mmorpgs specifically. You showed your true colors when you refered to us as "haters". I have played 10 games of Hon today and some guild wars. Its VERY disingenuous to refer to us as haters.
Listen, I didn't say anything about you hating instanced pvp. I said you and many people like you hate instanced pvp in an mmorpg.
When I say competitive online rpg, I presume I'm talking about instanced pvp in an mmorpg game. And the game is purely base on skill. Since how can you have competitve online rpg when 2 sides dont' even have equal amount of people. And I thought that's what you hate, you hate instanced pvp in an mmorpg. And I thought the rpg part automatically assume it's an mmorpg not MOBA.
Basically I'm saying is you and many people like you are a hater of competitive instanced pvp in an mmorpg game. If hater is such an offensive word I appologize.
And me personally, I dont' care either way. Weather there's instanced pvp or not I don't care. I like them either way.
*side note CORPG can mean co-operative online rpg or competitve online rpg. I'm talking about competitive online rpg here. I put a bracket there.
except there really isnt any mmorpgs that rewards you based on how good you are, you get rewarded for simply spending time.
in themeparks, its all about logging in and grinding dailes, raids and for rep/badges.
in sandboxs, they ussually have some ridiculous skill system that takes 3 years to max out.
ya but as long as there is rewards, you are automatically rewarded for time spend.
And if you reward people by making them stronger, you automatically give them an unfair advantage. The reward itself is the problem. That make the competition no longer purely skill based.
That being said the arena system world of warcraft have is probably the closest thing to a CORPG(competive online RPG). But there's many CORPG hater in this forum. They dont' believe in instanced pvp in an mmorpg. And anyone who start doing wow arena now will be behind if they dont' have decent starter gear. You only need to play 1 hour a week to catch up, but it'll take you month to catch up.
We believe in instanced PvP. Please do not lie about other people. We just believe that coop rpgs and mobas are separate genre's from MMOs and dilute the goal of MMOs. Why do MOBAs and COOP RPGs have to be shoved into MMOs? They were separated for a reason.
Problem solved? I presume that's implied.
Its not implied. themeparkers constantly claim that we hate all forms of instances when we are really saying that they dont belong in mmorpgs specifically. You showed your true colors when you refered to us as "haters". I have played 10 games of Hon today and some guild wars. Its VERY disingenuous to refer to us as haters.
Listen, I didn't say anything about you hating instanced pvp. I said you and many people like you hate instanced pvp in an mmorpg.
When I say competitive online rpg, I presume I'm talking about instanced pvp in an mmorpg game. And the game is purely base on skill. Since how can you have competitve online rpg when 2 sides dont' even have equal amount of people. And I thought that's what you hate, you hate instanced pvp in an mmorpg. And I thought the rpg part automatically assume it's an mmorpg not MOBA.
Basically I'm saying is you and many people like you are a hater of competitive instanced pvp in an mmorpg game. If hater is such an offensive word I appologize.
And me personally, I dont' care either way. Weather there's instanced pvp or not I don't care. I like them either way.
*side note CORPG can mean co-operative online rpg or competitve online rpg. I'm talking about competitive online rpg here. I put a bracket there.
Guild Wars was the first CORPG by your definition. They explicitly say its NOT an MMO. You can have a CORPG OR an MMORPG. Your post still makes no sense.
Instanced PvP is inherently anti RPG which is why I mention MOBAs. Instances that you play over and over remove the whole idea of roleplay.
And you did not say in an mmorpg. you CHANGED that after I called you out.
Hater means irrational hatred, its basically the opposite of fanboy. The fact that I think that instanced PvP belongs in games like GW1 and not MMORPGs does not make me a "hater".
except there really isnt any mmorpgs that rewards you based on how good you are, you get rewarded for simply spending time.
in themeparks, its all about logging in and grinding dailes, raids and for rep/badges.
in sandboxs, they ussually have some ridiculous skill system that takes 3 years to max out.
ya but as long as there is rewards, you are automatically rewarded for time spend.
And if you reward people by making them stronger, you automatically give them an unfair advantage. The reward itself is the problem. That make the competition no longer purely skill based.
That being said the arena system world of warcraft have is probably the closest thing to a CORPG(competive online RPG). But there's many CORPG hater in this forum. They dont' believe in instanced pvp in an mmorpg. And anyone who start doing wow arena now will be behind if they dont' have decent starter gear. You only need to play 1 hour a week to catch up, but it'll take you month to catch up.
We believe in instanced PvP. Please do not lie about other people. We just believe that coop rpgs and mobas are separate genre's from MMOs and dilute the goal of MMOs. Why do MOBAs and COOP RPGs have to be shoved into MMOs? They were separated for a reason.
Problem solved? I presume that's implied.
Its not implied. themeparkers constantly claim that we hate all forms of instances when we are really saying that they dont belong in mmorpgs specifically. You showed your true colors when you refered to us as "haters". I have played 10 games of Hon today and some guild wars. Its VERY disingenuous to refer to us as haters.
Listen, I didn't say anything about you hating instanced pvp. I said you and many people like you hate instanced pvp in an mmorpg.
When I say competitive online rpg, I presume I'm talking about instanced pvp in an mmorpg game. And the game is purely base on skill. Since how can you have competitve online rpg when 2 sides dont' even have equal amount of people. And I thought that's what you hate, you hate instanced pvp in an mmorpg. And I thought the rpg part automatically assume it's an mmorpg not MOBA.
Basically I'm saying is you and many people like you are a hater of competitive instanced pvp in an mmorpg game. If hater is such an offensive word I appologize.
And me personally, I dont' care either way. Weather there's instanced pvp or not I don't care. I like them either way.
*side note CORPG can mean co-operative online rpg or competitve online rpg. I'm talking about competitive online rpg here. I put a bracket there.
Guild Wars was the first CORPG by your definition. They explicitly say its NOT an MMO. You can have a CORPG OR an MMORPG. Your post still makes no sense.
Instanced PvP is inherently anti RPG which is why I mention MOBAs. Instances that you play over and over remove the whole idea of roleplay.
And you did not say in an mmorpg. you CHANGED that after I called you out.
Hater means irrational hatred, its basically the opposite of fanboy. The fact that I think that instanced PvP belongs in games like GW1 and not MMORPGs does not make me a "hater".
I appologize. My communication skill isn't very good. My understand of terminology or english skill isn't very good.
The only thing I'm trying to say is many people on this forum hate compettive instanced pvp in an mmorpg. Are we ok now?
except there really isnt any mmorpgs that rewards you based on how good you are, you get rewarded for simply spending time.
in themeparks, its all about logging in and grinding dailes, raids and for rep/badges.
in sandboxs, they ussually have some ridiculous skill system that takes 3 years to max out.
ya but as long as there is rewards, you are automatically rewarded for time spend.
And if you reward people by making them stronger, you automatically give them an unfair advantage. The reward itself is the problem. That make the competition no longer purely skill based.
That being said the arena system world of warcraft have is probably the closest thing to a CORPG(competive online RPG). But there's many CORPG hater in this forum. They dont' believe in instanced pvp in an mmorpg. And anyone who start doing wow arena now will be behind if they dont' have decent starter gear. You only need to play 1 hour a week to catch up, but it'll take you month to catch up.
We believe in instanced PvP. Please do not lie about other people. We just believe that coop rpgs and mobas are separate genre's from MMOs and dilute the goal of MMOs. Why do MOBAs and COOP RPGs have to be shoved into MMOs? They were separated for a reason.
Problem solved? I presume that's implied.
Its not implied. themeparkers constantly claim that we hate all forms of instances when we are really saying that they dont belong in mmorpgs specifically. You showed your true colors when you refered to us as "haters". I have played 10 games of Hon today and some guild wars. Its VERY disingenuous to refer to us as haters.
Listen, I didn't say anything about you hating instanced pvp. I said you and many people like you hate instanced pvp in an mmorpg.
When I say competitive online rpg, I presume I'm talking about instanced pvp in an mmorpg game. And the game is purely base on skill. Since how can you have competitve online rpg when 2 sides dont' even have equal amount of people. And I thought that's what you hate, you hate instanced pvp in an mmorpg. And I thought the rpg part automatically assume it's an mmorpg not MOBA.
Basically I'm saying is you and many people like you are a hater of competitive instanced pvp in an mmorpg game. If hater is such an offensive word I appologize.
And me personally, I dont' care either way. Weather there's instanced pvp or not I don't care. I like them either way.
*side note CORPG can mean co-operative online rpg or competitve online rpg. I'm talking about competitive online rpg here. I put a bracket there.
Guild Wars was the first CORPG by your definition. They explicitly say its NOT an MMO. You can have a CORPG OR an MMORPG. Your post still makes no sense.
Instanced PvP is inherently anti RPG which is why I mention MOBAs. Instances that you play over and over remove the whole idea of roleplay.
And you did not say in an mmorpg. you CHANGED that after I called you out.
Hater means irrational hatred, its basically the opposite of fanboy. The fact that I think that instanced PvP belongs in games like GW1 and not MMORPGs does not make me a "hater".
I appologize. My communication skill isn't very good. My understand of terminology or english skill isn't very good.
The only thing I'm trying to say is many people on this forum hate compettive instanced pvp in an mmorpg.
Not hate. Do not think it belongs there. Its innapropriate as an mmorpg feature. It does not contain any massively multiplayer features. I don't like instanced PvE in MMOs either.
I like the idea of being rewarded for my time spent playing a game. I don't like the idea of playing a game and having everyone have the same everything. There has to be something to be earned for me, being rewarded is fun in my opinion. Grinding for a long time for that one last level is always a giant payoff when you get it. Or that one peice of gear you have been trying to get forever and doing tons of stuff in game and investing tons of time for it, and finally getting it. Oh man that is awesome.
Comments
MMOs players seek a very different experience to people who play RTS, FPS, sports etc. MMO players don't want competitive PvP they want character progression and they want to have large scale fights even though these turn into nothing more than zergfests.
I would love if WoW allowed people to have access to all gear in their arenas. Arenas in WoW have the potential to be very competitive especially 5v5 but they are so unbalanced because of gear. GW2 is trying to put everybody on an equal terms eliminating the problems GW1 had. So that will reward skill not time spent. Winning will be down to the gear and skills choices you make and your skill.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I hear people referring to "skill" based games all the time, but I am not sure what you mean by this. I often see it connected to "twitch" based combat, but I don't see how this is more skillfull than what I consider "thought" based combat. Every game requires skill. So, I've never understood the argument for "skill" based anything, since it is all skill based.
So should someone that works 16 hours a day and someone that works 16 hours a week be rewarded equally as well? How about rewarding someone for spending money in the cash shop, is that what you'd lilke to see?
It's not because the "no-lifers" are rewarded more in game that they're better than you in PvP. In most games they'd have vastly superior gear and would own you in a way not even somewhat funny. GW2 should be the closest thing to a level playing field as far as MMO's go since gear at cap is supposed to be somewhat equivalent no matter how you get it.
Few points to make about this comment.
A) It's a beautiful irony that you compared MMO time spent to hourly work. That's exactly what the genre is turning into, and what I hope it moves away from.
C) Many people who are pro cash shops do not want to be rewarded directly for spending money. They are looking for a means to reduce the unreasonable time requirements mmos currently have.
I agree with Sythion. MMOs have turned into (or maybe they always were this way?) games which can pass as a second job. You spend an awful lot of time being bored doing some repetitive task (grind) in order to get to the fun stuff. I find MMOs unreasonable in terms of the time requirements they have. They are not games which you can play for say 5-6 hours a week because you will get no where and they are not really fun.
That's why I stopped playing MMOs a long time ago and I don't intend on playing an MMO again unless the ridiculously boring time sinks are removed. MMOs are boring but people just play them because of things like progression, "social interaction" etc. But at the end of the day MMOs are rarely fun.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
You have over a thousand posts on a website dedicated to Mmorpg's, and you are just now figuring out that they are ALL time sinks?
I do not understand this ....
Still, they should reward you for accomplishing stuff, not just being around.
There is far too much kindergarden mentality over MMOs where everybody gets a price no matter how bad they played.
Some time sinks are needed if you want players to stay around for years but there is such thing as going too far, like daily quests and similar crap.
yeh there is levels/runes but it doesnt take long to unlock enough to play a couple of champs. from then on in its horizontal progression. you are only paired against people of the same level as you anyway so its not big deal.
im not saying there should be NO time based rewards but MMORPGs should try and remove focus from them. LoL seemed like a good example. I could have pointed out DoTA which has 7-11 milllion unique downloads of the latest map, probably heaps more actual players and this game has no time based rewards whatsoever and you are saying there is no market for skill based rewards? the most popular games have skill based rewards, these players wouldnt touch mmorpgs because its really gay when you dont stand a chance because you havent undergone the tedious grind to get the latest raid/pvp gear.
i agree with what you are saying mostly.
except there really isnt any mmorpgs that rewards you based on how good you are, you get rewarded for simply spending time.
in themeparks, its all about logging in and grinding dailes, raids and for rep/badges.
in sandboxs, they ussually have some ridiculous skill system that takes 3 years to max out.
Sandboxes also highly reward your in game "social network." But I'm introverted so that doesn't suite me at all.
ya but as long as there is rewards, you are automatically rewarded for time spend.
And if you reward people by making them stronger, you automatically give them an unfair advantage. The reward itself is the problem. That make the competition no longer purely skill based.
That being said the arena system world of warcraft have is probably the closest thing to a CORPG(competive online RPG). But there's many CORPG hater in this forum. They dont' believe in instanced pvp. And anyone who start doing wow arena now will be behind if they dont' have decent starter gear. You only need to play 1 hour a week to catch up, but it'll take you month to catch up.
We believe in instanced PvP. Please do not lie about other people. We just believe that coop rpgs and mobas are separate genre's from MMOs and dilute the goal of MMOs. Why do MOBAs and COOP RPGs have to be shoved into MMOs? They were separated for a reason.
Problem solved? I presume that's implied.
Its not implied. themeparkers constantly claim that we hate all forms of instances when we are really saying that they dont belong in mmorpgs specifically. You showed your true colors when you refered to us as "haters". I have played 10 games of Hon today and some guild wars. Its VERY disingenuous to refer to us as haters.
i dont hate instanced pvp. i just think it shouldnt be the main focus. if you reward people for instanced pvp and dont reward them for world pvp then everyone just sits in battlegrounds and the game ceases to become a mmorpg.
i think instanced pvp is good as long as there are no rewards. maybe you could have a system where the teams/guiilds participating place money,items,gear as bets and whoever wins the instanced pvp match gets to take home all of the money,gear,items. that way there is no net gain from instanced pvp but it is still meaningful without forcing people to grind pvp instances.
this will also solve the probelm of time based rewards. good instanced pvp teams will only gain items. if you are not good you will never be rewarded anythinh no matter how long you play.
People usually just want to be rewarded for whatever they're already good at, and not for what they aren't.
If you have lots of time, you want it to be worth something, if you have lots of friends, you want a game that makes a virtue out of it, if your hand-eye coordination is good, you want a game that makes the most of it.. that's all fine, but the flipside of it bugs me, when people only want their own assets to be of any value, but think whatever others have should be worthless - or at best, just its own reward.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Everything you said is completely wrong due to the fact in basketball that veteran players have higher salaries based on time spent in the league. Research next time before posting. There should always be rewards for time spent. It just depends on the level of reward.
well currently mmorpgs really only reward people who spend time and nothing else. rewarding people for spending time is ok as long as it is moderate and you also reward players for hand eye coordination, brains, reflexes, social skills etc etc most modern mmorpgs dont reward these skills and the strongest characters are those who have invested the most time doing mundane repitive tasks. dont you think it is stupid that people are rewarded for doing easy repetitive tasks that anyone can do. it seems very unintuiive to me, i mean you wouldnt pay a taxi driver as much an engineer?
The whole point of RPGs is that your real life has no effect on your capabilities. That's why they are roleplaying games. Some people do choose to incorporate their real life skills, but that is optional.
In any case any form of progression will always overpower skills. Because progression is eternal and skills are not. You cannot get linear permanently better.
In TTS I do set individual skills to have diminishing returns for training, but you can always train other related skills even if the bonus isnt as much as the first 100exp in a given skill its better than possible increases in player skill. Similarly economic power almost always expands over time unless you can lose it through combat. And it expands at a much greater rate than skill. If I am 10x as rich as you its almost impossible to surpass me even if you are 4x as smart.
Unless you cap character skills in which case you are effectively removing progression it time invested always matters more than skill. Its not a zero sum game but its very very close. One option always overwhelms the other.
Listen, I didn't say anything about you hating instanced pvp. I said you and many people like you hate instanced pvp in an mmorpg.
When I say competitive online rpg, I presume I'm talking about instanced pvp in an mmorpg game. And the game is purely base on skill. Since how can you have competitve online rpg when 2 sides dont' even have equal amount of people. And I thought that's what you hate, you hate instanced pvp in an mmorpg. And I thought the rpg part automatically assume it's an mmorpg not MOBA.
Basically I'm saying is you and many people like you are a hater of competitive instanced pvp in an mmorpg game. If hater is such an offensive word I appologize.
And me personally, I dont' care either way. Weather there's instanced pvp or not I don't care. I like them either way.
*side note CORPG can mean co-operative online rpg or competitve online rpg. I'm talking about competitive online rpg here. I put a bracket there.
Guild Wars was the first CORPG by your definition. They explicitly say its NOT an MMO. You can have a CORPG OR an MMORPG. Your post still makes no sense.
Instanced PvP is inherently anti RPG which is why I mention MOBAs. Instances that you play over and over remove the whole idea of roleplay.
And you did not say in an mmorpg. you CHANGED that after I called you out.
Hater means irrational hatred, its basically the opposite of fanboy. The fact that I think that instanced PvP belongs in games like GW1 and not MMORPGs does not make me a "hater".
I appologize. My communication skill isn't very good. My understand of terminology or english skill isn't very good.
The only thing I'm trying to say is many people on this forum hate compettive instanced pvp in an mmorpg. Are we ok now?
Not hate. Do not think it belongs there. Its innapropriate as an mmorpg feature. It does not contain any massively multiplayer features. I don't like instanced PvE in MMOs either.
Using hate is pathos based hyperbole.
I appologize again. The only thing I'm trying to say is many people on this forum dislike compettive instanced pvp in an mmorpg.
I like the idea of being rewarded for my time spent playing a game. I don't like the idea of playing a game and having everyone have the same everything. There has to be something to be earned for me, being rewarded is fun in my opinion. Grinding for a long time for that one last level is always a giant payoff when you get it. Or that one peice of gear you have been trying to get forever and doing tons of stuff in game and investing tons of time for it, and finally getting it. Oh man that is awesome.