-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
I agree with you as long as your game ends every hour or so and you must start completely over just like the games in your example. You must also only ever play on the same playing field and use regulation hardware that is the same as everyone else (ie: no super gaming computers, no special gaming peripherals, same sized monitors). Everyone must play with the same bandwidth and latency.
You have fun with that one. I'll stick to progression based RPGs as my MMO and single player game hobby because that's what interests me. When I want to play sports I go play real sports not "e-sport" video games.
edit: spelling -- it's my foe.
pushing mmorpgs away from time based rewards to skill based rewards is extemely feasible (i think gw2 is gonna have a shot at this, maybe TERA as well). mmorpgs will never be as skill based as esport type games but that doesnt mean they have to be all about who is a better basement dweller.
i think you are exaggerated the requirements for skill based gamplay and the fact is simply that you prefer time based rewards. that is great, there are plenty of game out their for your to play and enjoy but i dont think a mmorpg that focusses more on player skill rather than time will have to "end every hour or so....."
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
I agree with you as long as your game ends every hour or so and you must start completely over just like the games in your example. You must also only ever play on the same playing field and use regulation hardware that is the same as everyone else (ie: no super gaming computers, no special gaming peripherals, same sized monitors). Everyone must play with the same bandwidth and latency.
You have fun with that one. I'll stick to progression based RPGs as my MMO and single player game hobby because that's what interests me. When I want to play sports I go play real sports not "e-sport" video games.
edit: spelling -- it's my foe.
pushing mmorpgs away from time based rewards to skill based rewards is extemely feasible (i think gw2 is gonna have a shot at this, maybe TERA as well). mmorpgs will never be as skill based as esport type games but that doesnt mean they have to be all about who is a better basement dweller.
i think you are exaggerated the requirements for skill based gamplay and the fact is simply that you prefer time based rewards. that is great, there are plenty of game out their for your to play and enjoy but i dont think a mmorpg that focusses more on player skill rather than time will have to "end every hour or so....."
The problem is that what consistutes too much focus on time spent varies. It will never be enough for some people. You are going to ruin the last bit off MMOness currently left in the genre.
The feeling of fun IS a conditioned reward. It might not be as explicit as a shiny though.
The reason that everyone in games are the same is the fault of player skill whiners. Games had to homogenize to make themselves "fair". So whining that everyone in MMOs is the same when its the fault of "skill" obsessed players themselves is pretty ironic.
skill based gameplay would make everyone different not similar. i dont know how you can even make this claim when there isnt a single mmorpg out that is thoroughly based on player skill.
im assuming you are referring to the homogenisation of classes in themepark mmorpgs like WOW, RIFT etc. im sorry to break it to you but these mmorpgs are not about player skill. the skill cap is very very low.
when i say player skill i mean games like quake 3, starcraft, dota, countersrtike, chess etc etc. no one is the same in these games because player input effects the outcome of gameplay so much more than a elements from the game itself --> examples: health points, mana points, spell damage, dodge change, crit chance etc.
real humans will always be more complex, unique and different and different character definged by a small types/number of bunch of programmed stats. try representing a humans intelligence using the RPG stats? its impossible, the best you can do is assign a number like 122 intelligence.
programming a human brain will require trillions of lines code and that is ignoreing creativity and ingenuity. there is not stat for creativity in RPGs. why not give players the tools to use their creativity in a game. why rely on stats, gear, damage, HP etc to create diversity when you have a fucking goldmine known as the human brain waiting to be exploited.
Homogenized classes are the result of fair trolls. Wah wah game isn't fair.
Writing a human brain would not take a trillion lines of code. Although why we would want to write a human brain is beyond me. None of the games you name are mmos. And fyi, if you play dota and have crappy items or gimped levels, you lose. If I get fed as a carry I can 1v5 and your team is shit out of luck.
Furthermore every single game people name as a "skill" game have tiny timespans. 2 hours tops.
If you wanted to play quake why not just play quake?
Try and play starcraft with 10000 people with a timespan of infinity. Now tell me whether the game is based on player skills or length of time played. That's what I thought.
in dota you lose if you are behind in levels/items but you are not rewarded by time spent since everyone is given the same amount of time to attain these levels and items. it is your descisions made
a dota game rarely lasts longer than an hour. its still based primarily on time spent, its just a time limit that is easier for players to get full use of.
ofc starcraft played with 10000 players with infinite timespan will be about time spent more so than player skill. this is because it is designed to be players in a short time span. games can be designed to work on a longer time scale without heavily rewarding time spend.
then why did you list starcraft as a viable example if its not at all comparable?
example:
-replace darkfall and EVEs skill system with a WOW/RIFT style skill system except allow for multiclassing whilst keeping a cap on the max no. of skills able to be learn. you just removed that 2 years of advantage that those long time players had and you have a mmorpg that is fairly heavily based on player skill, it only takes a week or 2 to get all of your skills.
Economy is nearly as important as skills in EvE. Economy is inherently uncappable.
-remove raid/pvp grind based gear progression. make gear more easily attainable and provide the players a large choice of gear of similar strength rather than a small choice of gear but of different strenghts organised in tiers. that way your characters strength is based on what you choose to equip it with (kind of like DoTA) rather than how much time u spend grinding. in DoTA there are different items you can choose and it is the developers attention to make them equal in strength. the difference between a good and bad player in DoTA is often is item choices under certain circumstances. why dont MMORPGs try and emulate this type of gameplay, it is excellent.
Because for the last time DOTA is a strictly time limited game. Each time you play dota you start over. In DOTA you progress constantly based on your decisions. Games in DOTA almost never reach the point where its impossible to progress by getting more levels or items. Further every single player in a DOTA game starts at the same time at the same level.
id really like to know cuathon what style of game you would prefer regardless of whether it is feasible or not. do you prefer time based rewards or player skill/descision based rewards?
Player skills is unfair. Unless you are using an arena based matchmaking system you aren't going to be vs equal enemies all the time. In the case that you had that, the game would be DOTA and not an MMO.
If you like DOTA play DOTA.
how is dota based primarly on time spent. time is controlled variable in DoTA. you cannot gain advantage from spending more time as the game starts and ends at the same time for everyone.you even say this yourself later in your post @_@
winning at the economy is mainly about player skill. so few mmorpgs have a proper economy, it is one thing i would like to see because it is an excellent way for people to gain power without spending much time. i remeber i went from poor to rich in a couple of days of diablo 2 by making excellent trades. sure i had to spend time, but it was nothing compared to running a raid 100 times to get that item to drop.
i think you are not properly understanding what i am trying to say. im aware that it is impossible to not have any time based rewards in a persistent world mmorpg. what i am trying to say is that it is possible to minimise these time based rewards and replace them with player skill based rewards. things like action combat, player economy, politics, pvp, horizontal gear progression are all examples of things that make mmorpgs more about players rather than the amount of time spent by the player.
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
I agree with you as long as your game ends every hour or so and you must start completely over just like the games in your example. You must also only ever play on the same playing field and use regulation hardware that is the same as everyone else (ie: no super gaming computers, no special gaming peripherals, same sized monitors). Everyone must play with the same bandwidth and latency.
You have fun with that one. I'll stick to progression based RPGs as my MMO and single player game hobby because that's what interests me. When I want to play sports I go play real sports not "e-sport" video games.
edit: spelling -- it's my foe.
pushing mmorpgs away from time based rewards to skill based rewards is extemely feasible (i think gw2 is gonna have a shot at this, maybe TERA as well). mmorpgs will never be as skill based as esport type games but that doesnt mean they have to be all about who is a better basement dweller.
i think you are exaggerated the requirements for skill based gamplay and the fact is simply that you prefer time based rewards. that is great, there are plenty of game out their for your to play and enjoy but i dont think a mmorpg that focusses more on player skill rather than time will have to "end every hour or so....."
The problem is that what consistutes too much focus on time spent varies. It will never be enough for some people. You are going to ruin the last bit off MMOness currently left in the genre.
i actually think the opposite. time based rewards and easy meaningless content that has to be repeated ad naseum are what is killing the genre. like others have pointed out its a cheap way to get dumb people to keep paying subs.
darkfall could have been so much better if it didnt favor so heavily those who have been playing for 3 years. how do you expect such an mmorpg to grow if new players are so heavily disadvantages. the same applies to EVE online.
if EVE online had a different skill system it would fairly player skill based. you can spend however much time you want on that game but your will not get anywhere unless you make good descisions simply because the longer you spend playing EVE the higher chance you have that your ship will get blown up.
this brings me to the concept of item decay. it is an excellent idea because the longer you play the more you decay. if you play well you get stronger, if you play poorly you get weaker. playing for more time doesnt neccessarly = stronger character.
i actually think the opposite. time based rewards and easy meaningless content that has to be repeated ad naseum are what is killing the genre. like others have pointed out its a cheap way to get dumb people to keep paying subs.
darkfall could have been so much better if it didnt favor so heavily those who have been playing for 3 years. how do you expect such an mmorpg to grow if new players are so heavily disadvantages. the same applies to EVE online.
if EVE online had a different skill system it would fairly player skill based. you can spend however much time you want on that game but your will not get anywhere unless you make good descisions simply because the longer you spend playing EVE the higher chance you have that your ship will get blown up.
this brings me to the concept of item decay. it is an excellent idea because the longer you play the more you decay. if you play well you get stronger, if you play poorly you get weaker. playing for more time doesnt neccessarly = stronger character.
Let me ask you something.
Why do peopel repeat Heroics ad nauseam?
Becuse there is a grind..Well maybe after once or twice through. But yeah at lest the 1st few times they were exciting. Then they stopped being exciting but you continued to do them right? To get teh drops right?
So, what would happen to those dungeons if there was no gear and no token system?
HINT: ******CRICKETTS******* right? No one would do those dungeons after you had mastered them a few times right?
So, what game was I just referring to? WoW or GW2 or both?
Both. There is no grind in GW2 because there is no dungeon once it begins to feel grindy. You do them until they feel grindy.
This is not the future of MMOs? With no reason to press on, you won't
Then, inbetween content upgrades, you'll be back in WoW.
i actually think the opposite. time based rewards and easy meaningless content that has to be repeated ad naseum are what is killing the genre. like others have pointed out its a cheap way to get dumb people to keep paying subs.
darkfall could have been so much better if it didnt favor so heavily those who have been playing for 3 years. how do you expect such an mmorpg to grow if new players are so heavily disadvantages. the same applies to EVE online.
if EVE online had a different skill system it would fairly player skill based. you can spend however much time you want on that game but your will not get anywhere unless you make good descisions simply because the longer you spend playing EVE the higher chance you have that your ship will get blown up.
this brings me to the concept of item decay. it is an excellent idea because the longer you play the more you decay. if you play well you get stronger, if you play poorly you get weaker. playing for more time doesnt neccessarly = stronger character.
Let me ask you something.
Why do peopel repeat Heroics ad nauseam?
Becuse there is a grind..Well maybe after once or twice through. But yeah at lest the 1st few times they were exciting. Then they stopped being exciting but you continued to do them right? To get teh drops right?
So, what would happen to those dungeons if there was no gear and no token system?
HINT: ******CRICKETTS******* right? No one would do those dungeons after you had mastered them a few times right?
So, what game was I just referring to? WoW or GW2 or both?
Both. There is no grind in GW2 because there is no dungeon once it begins to feel grindy. You do them until they feel grindy.
This is not the future of MMOs? With no reason to press on, you won't
Then, inbetween content upgrades, you'll be back in WoW.
why not make games fun so people play for fun rather than shinies....
this is the point im trying to get across. what keeps millions of people playing DoTA. its fucking fun and different every single time.
why not make games fun so people play for fun rather than shinies....
this is the point im trying to get across. what keeps millions of people playing DoTA. its fucking fun and different every single time.
there are tons of games that are just for fun.
But MMOs aren't. They are for us to log in and "build" something in our free time.
Yes there are many aspects that are fun to do...but no all. Yet we still need a reaon to log in and do something even if it's not the most fun thing to do, but al least if gives a sense of working towards a goal in between.
If there is no reason to log into the game other than fun...why would you log in after the fun wears off?
And so far every video game I have ever played loses that magic fun factor fairly soon. (Enter the grind) What's the reason to log in then?
You need something to do. fun or not. Yeah that doesn't sound very glorious...but it'sthe nature of the beast in MMOs.
But. it's different for different people, Maybe it always be fun. But I know what it's like to log into an MMO and sit there and stare at your character sitting on it's mount in the city and think to my self WTF do I do now? and log out.
My question is..when, not if, but when, GW starts to get grindy...what is the reason to log in and play.
I mean that question truthfully, not rethorically. Meaning have you thought about that or just taken it as fact that since there is no grind in GW2 it will always be fun?
I want to be rewarded for leveling up. Just that. I don't want rewards at level 1, level 5, level 10, and level 20 and then POOFFF!!! I'm on my own from then on out. Why always reward me for joining your game but not for achieving anything? I don't want to be rewarded for staying logged in for days on my personal cash vendor. That's lagg, I have a life, and omg get over yourselves you are not the only game in the world.
I don't think game makers should gear games for the intelligent only. How smart can you be to sit on your askit and not go out and get a real job? Wife. Kids? A dog. Something other than this dumb PC game? So don't beatch about how games are rewarding only the stupid players. Dude, if you are so smart go design your own game. Gawd, leave us dummies alone!
why not make games fun so people play for fun rather than shinies....
this is the point im trying to get across. what keeps millions of people playing DoTA. its fucking fun and different every single time.
there are tons of games that are just for fun.
But MMOs aren't. They are for us to log in and "build" something in our free time.
Yes there are many aspects that are fun to do...but no all. Yet we still need a reaon to log in and do something even if it's not the most fun thing to do, but al least if gives a sense of working towards a goal in between.
If there is no reason to log into the game other than fun...why would you log in after the fun wears off?
And so far every video game I have ever played loses that magic fun factor fairly soon. (Enter the grind) What's the reason to log in then?
You need something to do. fun or not. Yeah that doesn't sound very glorious...but it'sthe nature of the beast in MMOs.
But. it's different for different people, Maybe it always be fun. But I know what it's like to log into an MMO and sit there and stare at your character sitting on it's mount in the city and think to my self WTF do I do now? and log out.
My question is..when, not if, but when, GW starts to get grindy...what is the reason to log in and play.
I mean that question truthfully, not rethorically. Meaning have you thought about that or just taken it as fact that since there is no grind in GW2 it will always be fun?
there will be no reason to log in and play GW2 after it gets boring. it will probably get boring fairly quickly because it is essentially a themepark mmorpg, there is no player economy, no meaninful player controlled cities, no item decay/destruction etc
there is really not much to do except WvWvW but that will most likely be fairly meaningless seeing as you dont really ever get to own any of the castles you capture and charge taxes, rent out shop space etc
it seems you have just come to accept that video games are not fun in the long term and they only reason to play them is digital rewards. video games can be fun in the long term if designed correctly.
I want to be rewarded for leveling up. Just that. I don't want rewards at level 1, level 5, level 10, and level 20 and then POOFFF!!! I'm on my own from then on out. Why always reward me for joining your game but not for achieving anything? I don't want to be rewarded for staying logged in for days on my personal cash vendor. That's lagg, I have a life, and omg get over yourselves you are not the only game in the world.
I don't think game makers should gear games for the intelligent only. How smart can you be to sit on your askit and not go out and get a real job? Wife. Kids? A dog. Something other than this dumb PC game? So don't beatch about how games are rewarding only the stupid players. Dude, if you are so smart go design your own game. Gawd, leave us dummies alone!
Would I be correct in summarizing this thread as: "I like to play in style X. Style X should get the most rewards!"
correct! this is the essence of debate/discussion -- taking into consideration that i made arguments backing up my views (something you forgot to mention)
feel free to state your viewpoint (rather than pointing out the obvious)
I come from a world where if I argue that world should work a certain way, it's because it provides the greatest good to the most people, not because it benefits me personally. In a discussion where everyone is being selfish, it's hard to feel motivated to offer help.
What most MMOs are selling is the illusion of ever-increasing wealth and power (give or take some setbacks along the way). It is hard to design one set of ostacles that keeps all players inside a narrow range between challenge and frustration. So it is inevitable that the broader the audience, the more the game drifts towards making all actions rewarding in some way.
If you want a game/minigame tailored to your ideal risk-reward ratio, then simply ask for it. Be honest about it, don't invent excuses that try to paint your position as somehow morally superior or reasons why everyone else who has a different ideal is wrong. Accept that until the gameplay stats prove you really are the majority, consider yourself a niche player and just ask for a niche where you feel motivated, not for the whole game be redesigned around you.
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"
why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.
im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance. PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games.
Damn. So anyone who plays more than 2 weeks to achieve some goal is a "no life loser"?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Would I be correct in summarizing this thread as: "I like to play in style X. Style X should get the most rewards!"
correct! this is the essence of debate/discussion -- taking into consideration that i made arguments backing up my views (something you forgot to mention)
feel free to state your viewpoint (rather than pointing out the obvious)
I come from a world where if I argue that world should work a certain way, it's because it provides the greatest good to the most people, not because it benefits me personally. In a discussion where everyone is being selfish, it's hard to feel motivated to offer help.
What most MMOs are selling is the illusion of ever-increasing wealth and power (give or take some setbacks along the way). It is hard to design one set of ostacles that keeps all players inside a narrow range between challenge and frustration. So it is inevitable that the broader the audience, the more the game drifts towards making all actions rewarding in some way.
If you want a game/minigame tailored to your ideal risk-reward ratio, then simply ask for it. Be honest about it, don't invent excuses that try to paint your position as somehow morally superior or reasons why everyone else who has a different ideal is wrong. Accept that until the gameplay stats prove you really are the majority, consider yourself a niche player and just ask for a niche where you feel motivated, not for the whole game be redesigned around you.
Sorry I'm calling bullshit. Altruism is a fictious ideal. People ALWAYS act in their own best interest.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Sooooooooo..........
you weren't overly impressed with the post?
Wasn't it intellegent?
Well thought out?
non-biased and objective?
Contained many referenceable facts?
and contained arguments from multiple points of view?
I'm agree with the topic. Earned skills, items, achievements/titles are enough reward for veteran players. Costumes, pets, or something visual is a fair reward for veterans but items what are making thems better as they are.. not fair. The real MMO is where your skills dominating not your money, gear or time of spent. Eve and Perpetuum are different, those games are depends on time. That's why they hardly refresh their player base.
Some people here have mistaken practice with being rewarded for idling.
Just because Bob picked up the game in 08 and leaves his computer humming overnight with the game running, he doesn't deserve to hit 5% harder, ride a 5% faster giant lizard, or pick up 5% more money than I do.
Now if Bob's been examining drop charts, punching out damage and defense numbers, and knows that this little bit here and this little bit there that anyone could manage to do gives him these extra 5%, I can't complain as a novice.
I'm agree with the topic. Earned skills, items, achievements/titles are enough reward for veteran players. Costumes, pets, or something visual is a fair reward for veterans but items what are making thems better as they are.. not fair. The real MMO is where your skills dominating not your money, gear or time of spent. Eve and Perpetuum are different, those games are depends on time. That's why they hardly refresh their player base.
That would be the eye / finger coordination, correct? Who can spam the attack button faster........
If time spent playing is not rewarded, there is no reason to spend time playing.
That might cause problems with subscription business model.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
If time spent playing is not rewarded, there is no reason to spend time playing.
That might cause problems with subscription business model.
Don't worry, they're slowly moving over to P2W.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"
why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.
im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance. PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games.
Damn. So anyone who plays more than 2 weeks to achieve some goal is a "no life loser"?
no
anyone who grinds their arse off for 2 weeks to unlock the next tier of pvp gear in a mmorrpg is a no life loser.
Comments
pushing mmorpgs away from time based rewards to skill based rewards is extemely feasible (i think gw2 is gonna have a shot at this, maybe TERA as well). mmorpgs will never be as skill based as esport type games but that doesnt mean they have to be all about who is a better basement dweller.
i think you are exaggerated the requirements for skill based gamplay and the fact is simply that you prefer time based rewards. that is great, there are plenty of game out their for your to play and enjoy but i dont think a mmorpg that focusses more on player skill rather than time will have to "end every hour or so....."
I'm pretty sure MMORPGs have been rewarding players for their time spent in-game since the beginning.
The problem is that what consistutes too much focus on time spent varies. It will never be enough for some people. You are going to ruin the last bit off MMOness currently left in the genre.
how is dota based primarly on time spent. time is controlled variable in DoTA. you cannot gain advantage from spending more time as the game starts and ends at the same time for everyone.you even say this yourself later in your post @_@
winning at the economy is mainly about player skill. so few mmorpgs have a proper economy, it is one thing i would like to see because it is an excellent way for people to gain power without spending much time. i remeber i went from poor to rich in a couple of days of diablo 2 by making excellent trades. sure i had to spend time, but it was nothing compared to running a raid 100 times to get that item to drop.
i think you are not properly understanding what i am trying to say. im aware that it is impossible to not have any time based rewards in a persistent world mmorpg. what i am trying to say is that it is possible to minimise these time based rewards and replace them with player skill based rewards. things like action combat, player economy, politics, pvp, horizontal gear progression are all examples of things that make mmorpgs more about players rather than the amount of time spent by the player.
i actually think the opposite. time based rewards and easy meaningless content that has to be repeated ad naseum are what is killing the genre. like others have pointed out its a cheap way to get dumb people to keep paying subs.
darkfall could have been so much better if it didnt favor so heavily those who have been playing for 3 years. how do you expect such an mmorpg to grow if new players are so heavily disadvantages. the same applies to EVE online.
if EVE online had a different skill system it would fairly player skill based. you can spend however much time you want on that game but your will not get anywhere unless you make good descisions simply because the longer you spend playing EVE the higher chance you have that your ship will get blown up.
this brings me to the concept of item decay. it is an excellent idea because the longer you play the more you decay. if you play well you get stronger, if you play poorly you get weaker. playing for more time doesnt neccessarly = stronger character.
Let me ask you something.
Why do peopel repeat Heroics ad nauseam?
Becuse there is a grind..Well maybe after once or twice through. But yeah at lest the 1st few times they were exciting. Then they stopped being exciting but you continued to do them right? To get teh drops right?
So, what would happen to those dungeons if there was no gear and no token system?
HINT: ******CRICKETTS******* right? No one would do those dungeons after you had mastered them a few times right?
So, what game was I just referring to? WoW or GW2 or both?
Both. There is no grind in GW2 because there is no dungeon once it begins to feel grindy. You do them until they feel grindy.
This is not the future of MMOs? With no reason to press on, you won't
Then, inbetween content upgrades, you'll be back in WoW.
why not make games fun so people play for fun rather than shinies....
this is the point im trying to get across. what keeps millions of people playing DoTA. its fucking fun and different every single time.
there are tons of games that are just for fun.
But MMOs aren't. They are for us to log in and "build" something in our free time.
Yes there are many aspects that are fun to do...but no all. Yet we still need a reaon to log in and do something even if it's not the most fun thing to do, but al least if gives a sense of working towards a goal in between.
If there is no reason to log into the game other than fun...why would you log in after the fun wears off?
And so far every video game I have ever played loses that magic fun factor fairly soon. (Enter the grind) What's the reason to log in then?
You need something to do. fun or not. Yeah that doesn't sound very glorious...but it'sthe nature of the beast in MMOs.
But. it's different for different people, Maybe it always be fun. But I know what it's like to log into an MMO and sit there and stare at your character sitting on it's mount in the city and think to my self WTF do I do now? and log out.
My question is..when, not if, but when, GW starts to get grindy...what is the reason to log in and play.
I mean that question truthfully, not rethorically. Meaning have you thought about that or just taken it as fact that since there is no grind in GW2 it will always be fun?
I want to be rewarded for leveling up. Just that. I don't want rewards at level 1, level 5, level 10, and level 20 and then POOFFF!!! I'm on my own from then on out. Why always reward me for joining your game but not for achieving anything? I don't want to be rewarded for staying logged in for days on my personal cash vendor. That's lagg, I have a life, and omg get over yourselves you are not the only game in the world.
I don't think game makers should gear games for the intelligent only. How smart can you be to sit on your askit and not go out and get a real job? Wife. Kids? A dog. Something other than this dumb PC game? So don't beatch about how games are rewarding only the stupid players. Dude, if you are so smart go design your own game. Gawd, leave us dummies alone!
there will be no reason to log in and play GW2 after it gets boring. it will probably get boring fairly quickly because it is essentially a themepark mmorpg, there is no player economy, no meaninful player controlled cities, no item decay/destruction etc
there is really not much to do except WvWvW but that will most likely be fairly meaningless seeing as you dont really ever get to own any of the castles you capture and charge taxes, rent out shop space etc
it seems you have just come to accept that video games are not fun in the long term and they only reason to play them is digital rewards. video games can be fun in the long term if designed correctly.
I come from a world where if I argue that world should work a certain way, it's because it provides the greatest good to the most people, not because it benefits me personally. In a discussion where everyone is being selfish, it's hard to feel motivated to offer help.
What most MMOs are selling is the illusion of ever-increasing wealth and power (give or take some setbacks along the way). It is hard to design one set of ostacles that keeps all players inside a narrow range between challenge and frustration. So it is inevitable that the broader the audience, the more the game drifts towards making all actions rewarding in some way.
If you want a game/minigame tailored to your ideal risk-reward ratio, then simply ask for it. Be honest about it, don't invent excuses that try to paint your position as somehow morally superior or reasons why everyone else who has a different ideal is wrong. Accept that until the gameplay stats prove you really are the majority, consider yourself a niche player and just ask for a niche where you feel motivated, not for the whole game be redesigned around you.
Damn. So anyone who plays more than 2 weeks to achieve some goal is a "no life loser"?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Sorry I'm calling bullshit. Altruism is a fictious ideal. People ALWAYS act in their own best interest.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Sooooooooo..........
you weren't overly impressed with the post?
Wasn't it intellegent?
Well thought out?
non-biased and objective?
Contained many referenceable facts?
and contained arguments from multiple points of view?
The OP was exactly that but the opposite. It's almost like it was nothing it should have been.
Yep...my point exactly.
I had tried to pick the inital post apart from a WoW players perspective...Thought it was witty too, just got glossed over .
Oh well. Not sure why such a waste of a thread keeps pulling me back...
I guess it's the sarcasm
I'm agree with the topic. Earned skills, items, achievements/titles are enough reward for veteran players. Costumes, pets, or something visual is a fair reward for veterans but items what are making thems better as they are.. not fair. The real MMO is where your skills dominating not your money, gear or time of spent. Eve and Perpetuum are different, those games are depends on time. That's why they hardly refresh their player base.
Some people here have mistaken practice with being rewarded for idling.
Just because Bob picked up the game in 08 and leaves his computer humming overnight with the game running, he doesn't deserve to hit 5% harder, ride a 5% faster giant lizard, or pick up 5% more money than I do.
Now if Bob's been examining drop charts, punching out damage and defense numbers, and knows that this little bit here and this little bit there that anyone could manage to do gives him these extra 5%, I can't complain as a novice.
That would be the eye / finger coordination, correct? Who can spam the attack button faster........
*flops over dead in my best Tinker Bell impression*
If time spent playing is not rewarded, there is no reason to spend time playing.
That might cause problems with subscription business model.
Don't worry, they're slowly moving over to P2W.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
no
anyone who grinds their arse off for 2 weeks to unlock the next tier of pvp gear in a mmorrpg is a no life loser.
it really depends what your goal is.