-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"
why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.
im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance. PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games.
Damn. So anyone who plays more than 2 weeks to achieve some goal is a "no life loser"?
no
anyone who grinds their arse off for 2 weeks to unlock the next tier of pvp gear in a mmorrpg is a no life loser.
Would I be correct in summarizing this thread as: "I like to play in style X. Style X should get the most rewards!"
correct! this is the essence of debate/discussion -- taking into consideration that i made arguments backing up my views (something you forgot to mention)
feel free to state your viewpoint (rather than pointing out the obvious)
I come from a world where if I argue that world should work a certain way, it's because it provides the greatest good to the most people, not because it benefits me personally. In a discussion where everyone is being selfish, it's hard to feel motivated to offer help.
What most MMOs are selling is the illusion of ever-increasing wealth and power (give or take some setbacks along the way). It is hard to design one set of ostacles that keeps all players inside a narrow range between challenge and frustration. So it is inevitable that the broader the audience, the more the game drifts towards making all actions rewarding in some way.
If you want a game/minigame tailored to your ideal risk-reward ratio, then simply ask for it. Be honest about it, don't invent excuses that try to paint your position as somehow morally superior or reasons why everyone else who has a different ideal is wrong. Accept that until the gameplay stats prove you really are the majority, consider yourself a niche player and just ask for a niche where you feel motivated, not for the whole game be redesigned around you.
come on m8 ur talking shit, all you care about is yourself and maybe your closest family and friends.
i never painted myself as morally superior. this is just game preference it has nothing to do with morals rofl. all i said was the skill based rewards are better than time based rewards. wouldnt you rather be rewarded for your intelligence/skill rather than how many days you can take off work? alot of people seem to agree that grinding is not fun but they do it for rewards. i cant get my head around this , it just seems ridiculous to me. i play video games for fun and if im not having fun i simply do something else no matter how shiny the nest shiny is.
there cant be any gameplay stats that prove that skill based rewards are popular because no mmorpg has tried it yet. there are plenty of non-mmorpg games that reward players based on skill and they have more users than WOW eg. league of legends. how can you dismiss an idea if it hasnt even been tested?
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"
why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.
im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance. PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games.
Damn. So anyone who plays more than 2 weeks to achieve some goal is a "no life loser"?
no
anyone who grinds their arse off for 2 weeks to unlock the next tier of pvp gear in a mmorrpg is a no life loser.
it really depends what your goal is.
So...what are you looking for in an MMORPG?
item decay (stops time based rewards, the more you play -- the more your items decay, you have to play good to get stronger, not simply play)
player owned cities where u can set taxes, rent shop space
cities are special eg some cities might have a forge that gives 5% bonus fire damage on all crafts etc
no fixed classes
non targetting combat
meaninful crafting with crafting skill trees
pvp/pve zones (pvp zones have better rewards but greater risk)
fast levelling and then you focus on horizontal progression and teamwork based objectives like castle sieges/ relic capture
RPGs are about character progression, and gear/levels happens to be part of that. If you want to play a game where success is based mainly around skill, I suggest picking up an FPS or RTS game or GW2.
why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent.
Becasue, games with subscriptions reward companies over time spent playing their games. These companies don't make more based on how skillfull you play. They only make money based on how long you play. So they reward long time players.
Las Vegas Casinos "comp" Whales for losing money at the tables, not for winning. Winners are asked never to come back. I hope this clears things up.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
It still astounds me how many people are so closed minded about what constitutes an RPG. RPG needs some form of progression I'll concede to that, but there are so many more way to define progression that isn't about gear and levels.
I'm quite confident that I can create a non level, non gear based mmo on paper that has massive character progression. Would it be popular, maybe not, but I would account that more to people being closed minded then anything else.
Saying RPG have to have gear and levels to me is like saying there is only one way to get from city A to city B and that isby foot. Anything else is not true traveling. The same mind set kept the dark ages in place for so long.
My character in an RPG isn't defined be levels or gear, but by my actions and the path I take.
Would I be correct in summarizing this thread as: "I like to play in style X. Style X should get the most rewards!"
correct! this is the essence of debate/discussion -- taking into consideration that i made arguments backing up my views (something you forgot to mention)
feel free to state your viewpoint (rather than pointing out the obvious)
I come from a world where if I argue that world should work a certain way, it's because it provides the greatest good to the most people, not because it benefits me personally. In a discussion where everyone is being selfish, it's hard to feel motivated to offer help.
What most MMOs are selling is the illusion of ever-increasing wealth and power (give or take some setbacks along the way). It is hard to design one set of ostacles that keeps all players inside a narrow range between challenge and frustration. So it is inevitable that the broader the audience, the more the game drifts towards making all actions rewarding in some way.
If you want a game/minigame tailored to your ideal risk-reward ratio, then simply ask for it. Be honest about it, don't invent excuses that try to paint your position as somehow morally superior or reasons why everyone else who has a different ideal is wrong. Accept that until the gameplay stats prove you really are the majority, consider yourself a niche player and just ask for a niche where you feel motivated, not for the whole game be redesigned around you.
come on m8 ur talking shit, all you care about is yourself and maybe your closest family and friends.
i never painted myself as morally superior. this is just game preference it has nothing to do with morals rofl. all i said was the skill based rewards are better than time based rewards. wouldnt you rather be rewarded for your intelligence/skill rather than how many days you can take off work? alot of people seem to agree that grinding is not fun but they do it for rewards. i cant get my head around this , it just seems ridiculous to me. i play video games for fun and if im not having fun i simply do something else no matter how shiny the nest shiny is.
there cant be any gameplay stats that prove that skill based rewards are popular because no mmorpg has tried it yet. there are plenty of non-mmorpg games that reward players based on skill and they have more users than WOW eg. league of legends. how can you dismiss an idea if it hasnt even been tested?
you say league of legends reward people base on skill, what do they reward people in that game?
Would I be correct in summarizing this thread as: "I like to play in style X. Style X should get the most rewards!"
correct! this is the essence of debate/discussion -- taking into consideration that i made arguments backing up my views (something you forgot to mention)
feel free to state your viewpoint (rather than pointing out the obvious)
I come from a world where if I argue that world should work a certain way, it's because it provides the greatest good to the most people, not because it benefits me personally. In a discussion where everyone is being selfish, it's hard to feel motivated to offer help.
What most MMOs are selling is the illusion of ever-increasing wealth and power (give or take some setbacks along the way). It is hard to design one set of ostacles that keeps all players inside a narrow range between challenge and frustration. So it is inevitable that the broader the audience, the more the game drifts towards making all actions rewarding in some way.
If you want a game/minigame tailored to your ideal risk-reward ratio, then simply ask for it. Be honest about it, don't invent excuses that try to paint your position as somehow morally superior or reasons why everyone else who has a different ideal is wrong. Accept that until the gameplay stats prove you really are the majority, consider yourself a niche player and just ask for a niche where you feel motivated, not for the whole game be redesigned around you.
come on m8 ur talking shit, all you care about is yourself and maybe your closest family and friends.
i never painted myself as morally superior. this is just game preference it has nothing to do with morals rofl. all i said was the skill based rewards are better than time based rewards. wouldnt you rather be rewarded for your intelligence/skill rather than how many days you can take off work? alot of people seem to agree that grinding is not fun but they do it for rewards. i cant get my head around this , it just seems ridiculous to me. i play video games for fun and if im not having fun i simply do something else no matter how shiny the nest shiny is.
there cant be any gameplay stats that prove that skill based rewards are popular because no mmorpg has tried it yet. there are plenty of non-mmorpg games that reward players based on skill and they have more users than WOW eg. league of legends. how can you dismiss an idea if it hasnt even been tested?
you say league of legends reward people base on skill, what do they reward people in that game?
LoL is not totally skill based, there are levels for progression. These levels give you summoner points, glyph slots, new summoner abilities and access to better tier glyphs. A player that has played more WILL have an advantage.
I don't understand this whole "reward" thing anyway.
I play a game because I like the gameplay, the setting, the lore, the people I'm playing it with - it never crossed my mind that I have to get a "reward" for that - he, it's not like I made some big achievement that should be rewarded, I'm just playing a damn computer game!
Equally with the "time spent" argument - when I like the gameplay I like to spend time in that game. Are people so weird these days that they want a reward for not playing the game, i.e. for not spending time in it?
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
MMOs dont directly reward time spent. You can spend 20 hours logge onto a game and spend all that time chatting, the guy who logs in for 10 hours and fights monsters will level up. Your character impoves by playing the game (shock!), not just time spent. It not only improves your characters stats, but improves the player's ability to make decisions, their reflextes, strategy, knowledge, all that stuff you mentioned. It all comes with time, and obviously a person whose put in the time and effort to make their character better will become a better player than one that, say, bought a character from another person or got power leveled.
Time =/= reward...effort does. More time just means more opportunity to put forth the effort.
RPGs are about character progression, and gear/levels happens to be part of that. If you want to play a game where success is based mainly around skill, I suggest picking up an FPS or RTS game or GW2.
Fixed it for ya
He said skill.
How's GW2 fit in? I saw the PVP videos. Felt like watching Frost Mages all over again.
RPGs are about character progression, and gear/levels happens to be part of that. If you want to play a game where success is based mainly around skill, I suggest picking up an FPS or RTS game or GW2.
Fixed it for ya
He said skill.
How's GW2 fit in? I saw the PVP videos. Felt like watching Frost Mages all over again.
1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1
"Oh Shit!"
11111111111111111111111
"Whew"
1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1
Even an FPS or RTS you wont get good at without spending time playing it first.
I'm not sure why so many people think they should instantly be better than someone with far more experience (actual experience, not experience points) than themselves. I feel old saying it, and maybe it means I am getting old, but I think this new generation seems to feel more entitled to getting something for nothing than previous ones.
I don't understand this whole "reward" thing anyway.
Yeah, ok ... the gameplay should be its own reward, not everything is about chasing the carrots, about racing the treadmill, finding your own fun rather than racing everyone else's harvest rates ... I don't really want to argue against that angle of seeing things even though most games out there are structured as an overt treadmill.
Originally posted by maplestone Originally posted by Larsa I don't understand this whole "reward" thing anyway.
Yeah, ok ... the gameplay should be its own reward, not everything is about chasing the carrots, about racing the treadmill, finding your own fun rather than racing everyone else's harvest rates ... I don't really want to argue against that angle of seeing things even though most games out there are structured as an overt treadmill. The inherent flaw in basing an MMO around the concept that "Game play is it's own reward" is that once game play itself ceases to be rewarding, game play ceases altogether.
That's not going to work for long term MMO gaming.
-their reflexes, strategy and knowledge during combat
-their ability make allies and utlisie these friendships
-their ability to play the market and reap gains
pretty much every game whether it be soccer,basketball, quake 3, starcraft or chess doesnt directly reward time spent. you will get better with practice but not neccesarly at the same rate and different people will plateu at different ability levels. practicing and competing to extract all the performance out of your potential is what makes these games interesting and is the reason for their longevity.
"hey looks like you grinded your arse off for 2 weeks now you have enough badges to unlock tier X pvp gear. congratulations you are a no life loser and now you can pwn all those who undergoing the process you just went through. dont you just feel great?"
why is it mmorpgs have this stupid concept of rewards based on time spent. "progression" should be difficult not time consuming. for example: once a raid is complete why should you have to keep completing until you have all the items? if you can do it once, you can surely do it again. how do people put up with this crap? make the raids more challenging rather than making them something you repeat and repeat.
im also a firm beleiver than no computer programming can beat the complexity and unpredicatlibility of PVP based gameplay. . i think one of the reasons that players dont like pvp gameplay is because it is poorly done. since players are rewarded based on time spent, casual players (the majority) dont stand a chance. PVP gameplay is superior to PVE gameplay in that there are infinite possibilities. developers only have to provide the tools, they dont need to constantly churn out content. look at LoL and DoTA. both of these games are extremely popular (far more popular than any mmorpg) and they are pvp games.
All games? Every game that is made? No games ever should be based on progression? All games forever should fit your criteria?
Personally, I'm glad there is a variety of games, some based on skill, some based on progression (time in game).
It looks like we are still living in the 90's, people stuffing games into very restrictive genres going insane when they stumble upon a game like Borderlands and cant decide if it's a RPG or FPS game... I see the genre borders blending more and more with games like Borderlands, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and such, and I damn well hope to see similar MMORPGFPS games and not just RPG or FPS based games.
And what's with the "time spent is RPG thing" arguing anyway, last I played Battlefield BC2 I got better guns and accessories depending on the time I spent in the game, sure I got them faster the better I played but it's essentially the same. Same thing in Space Marine MP. It's neccesary feature in online games where you want people to spend as much as possible time, or as long as possible on a long run. Rewarding time spent is here to stay regardless of the genre if it's an online game trying to keep players in the game by a carrot, which is very common nowadays.
It looks like we are still living in the 90's, people stuffing games into very restrictive genres going insane when they stumble upon a game like Borderlands and cant decide if it's a RPG or FPS game... I see the genre borders blending more and more with games like Borderlands, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and such, and I damn well hope to see similar MMORPGFPS games and not just RPG or FPS based games.
And what's with the "time spent is RPG thing" arguing anyway, last I played Battlefield BC2 I got better guns and accessories depending on the time I spent in the game, sure I got them faster the better I played but it's essentially the same. Same thing in Space Marine MP. It's neccesary feature in online games where you want people to spend as much as possible time, or as long as possible on a long run. Rewarding time spent is here to stay regardless of the genre if it's an online game trying to keep players in the game by a carrot, which is very common nowadays.
It may be a little off topic, but I just have to say...I've never been a fan of FPS', but not since Goldeneye have I been so enthralled by one quite as much as Borderlands. Awesome game that. Hope the sequel lives up to the original.
Originally posted by Kuinn It looks like we are still living in the 90's, people stuffing games into very restrictive genres going insane when they stumble upon a game like Borderlands and cant decide if it's a RPG or FPS game... I see the genre borders blending more and more with games like Borderlands, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and such, and I damn well hope to see similar MMORPGFPS games and not just RPG or FPS based games.
And what's with the "time spent is RPG thing" arguing anyway, last I played Battlefield BC2 I got better guns and accessories depending on the time I spent in the game, sure I got them faster the better I played but it's essentially the same. Same thing in Space Marine MP. It's neccesary feature in online games where you want people to spend as much as possible time, or as long as possible on a long run. Rewarding time spent is here to stay regardless of the genre if it's an online game trying to keep players in the game by a carrot, which is very common nowadays.
I think your comment about the carrot is at the heart of this thread. There are current sentiments floating around that you don't need the carrot. Or that the carrot is the fun of the game itself.
It's easy to apply that to a finite game. One with a start and a finish like a SPRPG, But I am struggling with that concept and how it applies to the long term MMORPG.
It looks like we are still living in the 90's, people stuffing games into very restrictive genres going insane when they stumble upon a game like Borderlands and cant decide if it's a RPG or FPS game... I see the genre borders blending more and more with games like Borderlands, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and such, and I damn well hope to see similar MMORPGFPS games and not just RPG or FPS based games.
And what's with the "time spent is RPG thing" arguing anyway, last I played Battlefield BC2 I got better guns and accessories depending on the time I spent in the game, sure I got them faster the better I played but it's essentially the same. Same thing in Space Marine MP. It's neccesary feature in online games where you want people to spend as much as possible time, or as long as possible on a long run. Rewarding time spent is here to stay regardless of the genre if it's an online game trying to keep players in the game by a carrot, which is very common nowadays.
I think your comment about the carrot is at the heart of this thread.
There are current sentiments floating around that you don't need the carrot. Or that the carrot is the fun of the game itself.
It's easy to apply that to a finite game. One with a start and a finish like a SPRPG, But I am struggling with that concept and how it applies to the long term MMORPG.
So much this.
Even srpgs have carrots anyways. Its just not a grind because the whole game only lasts 20-100 hours.
The old equation use to be time + risk = reward. They dropped the risk from the equation and boredom ensued.
In EQ, you lost exp points for dying, you had to retrieve your corpse or lose your stuff etc. It took some amount of skill to get to the level cap and stay there. Perhaps not a lot, but more than just playing 24 hours a day beating your head against a wall until you "achieved" max level.
It also took social skill, most classes were incapable of soloing their way to max level in a reasonable time frame, so they had to have the social skills to work with others in order to progress.
Even crafting had some level of risk involved in old school MMOs, you risked losing the ingredient during a failed attempt, sometimes losing thousands of gold in the process.
Yeah, combat may be rather skillless for the most part, though games like FFXI in the days before WoW, required lots of teamwork in combat in order to progress at a reasonable pace (another layer of social skill), but that doesn't mean MMOs were without skill requirements, at least before the Wowified themepark invasion. It was just a different type of skill requirement, more social and perseverance oriented and less twitch/strategy. Combat was only a part of the game, not 90% of it.
When things were reduced to time = reward is when MMORPGs became boring IMO. Everyone could do everything, no one had to depend on anyone else, and you were 100% guaranteed to reach max level just for showing up and playing. Even a social reject can reach the level cap at the same pace as everyone else.
This is all my opinion of course, but I'm an ex MMORPG gamer and I don't think I'll ever go back for the reasons I listed above. The genre has moved away from virtual worlds that feel realistic and alive to game worlds that feel void of even a vestige of soul, muchless life and any developer that even attempts to make anything else is instantly shot down in the market place or lacks the investment support to fully flesh out their game.
So if I have a membership to a gym, I should automatically grow muscles?
If you spend more time than me DOING muscle building exercizes, yes! If you just go in and sit there looking at the ladies, then, no. Wrong muscle being exercized there buddy :-P
You get out of game & life what you put into it.
Correct. It is effort applied and lessons learned that generate the rewards, not time.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
RPGs are about character progression, and gear/levels happens to be part of that. If you want to play a game where success is based mainly around skill, I suggest picking up an FPS or RTS game.
Exactamundo... It's attitudes like the OP's that really boggle my mind, what he wants is another genre, not to say there can't be MMO games like this, but they're not going to be MMORPG's.
Well, they are making one just for the OP, GW2 in fact, and it really isn't a proper MMORPG since its focuses so hard on removing character progression from the game and leveling the playing field.
Should be right up his alley.
There is a lot of misinformation and speculation about just how exactly GW2's progression system will work.
I think He's referring to the level cap philosophy GW2 is using, no upward progression all horizontal. Not to mention things like instant 80, gear etc.. in PVP.
I stand by my statement, with the exception to the instant level cap PvP chars.
Then please correct him about it rather than just making a general statement. Everything I have read about GW2 indicates that they want a horizontal progression rather than vertical progression which is what he was saying. If that is incorrect, I would like to know how it is incorrect as it may change some of my thoughts on the game.
item decay (stops time based rewards, the more you play -- the more your items decay, you have to play good to get stronger, not simply play)
player owned cities where u can set taxes, rent shop space
cities are special eg some cities might have a forge that gives 5% bonus fire damage on all crafts etc
no fixed classes
non targetting combat
meaninful crafting with crafting skill trees
pvp/pve zones (pvp zones have better rewards but greater risk)
fast levelling and then you focus on horizontal progression and teamwork based objectives like castle sieges/ relic capture
large concurrent server population
You are confusing me, you speak out againts time based gameplay, yet you propose features which are the BACKBONE of time based mmos, time to get mats for crafting, time to get money to pay rent for housing, time to get resources to counter item decay...
It seems to me that you are just unhappy that rift or wow follow the same old paradigm, easy to play hard to master, nowadays ofcourse, too easy to play too hard to master, especially in pvp, with every expansion new mechanics are introduced, i dont know about current wow, but at the time i played you needed 3 hotbars @ howmanywerethere? 10 skills hotkeyed.
Soo.... welcome in the club, it was stated a long time ago that wow gameplay was like someone would doscontinue the grades B, D, E and F at school, taking away any incentive to try to be better to anyone who is not a egghead (hardcore raider, arena junkie), if you can get a C for free, why bother?
Comments
So...what are you looking for in an MMORPG?
come on m8 ur talking shit, all you care about is yourself and maybe your closest family and friends.
i never painted myself as morally superior. this is just game preference it has nothing to do with morals rofl. all i said was the skill based rewards are better than time based rewards. wouldnt you rather be rewarded for your intelligence/skill rather than how many days you can take off work? alot of people seem to agree that grinding is not fun but they do it for rewards. i cant get my head around this , it just seems ridiculous to me. i play video games for fun and if im not having fun i simply do something else no matter how shiny the nest shiny is.
there cant be any gameplay stats that prove that skill based rewards are popular because no mmorpg has tried it yet. there are plenty of non-mmorpg games that reward players based on skill and they have more users than WOW eg. league of legends. how can you dismiss an idea if it hasnt even been tested?
item decay (stops time based rewards, the more you play -- the more your items decay, you have to play good to get stronger, not simply play)
player owned cities where u can set taxes, rent shop space
cities are special eg some cities might have a forge that gives 5% bonus fire damage on all crafts etc
no fixed classes
non targetting combat
meaninful crafting with crafting skill trees
pvp/pve zones (pvp zones have better rewards but greater risk)
fast levelling and then you focus on horizontal progression and teamwork based objectives like castle sieges/ relic capture
large concurrent server population
Fixed it for ya
Becasue, games with subscriptions reward companies over time spent playing their games. These companies don't make more based on how skillfull you play. They only make money based on how long you play. So they reward long time players.
Las Vegas Casinos "comp" Whales for losing money at the tables, not for winning. Winners are asked never to come back. I hope this clears things up.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
It still astounds me how many people are so closed minded about what constitutes an RPG. RPG needs some form of progression I'll concede to that, but there are so many more way to define progression that isn't about gear and levels.
I'm quite confident that I can create a non level, non gear based mmo on paper that has massive character progression. Would it be popular, maybe not, but I would account that more to people being closed minded then anything else.
Saying RPG have to have gear and levels to me is like saying there is only one way to get from city A to city B and that isby foot. Anything else is not true traveling. The same mind set kept the dark ages in place for so long.
My character in an RPG isn't defined be levels or gear, but by my actions and the path I take.
you say league of legends reward people base on skill, what do they reward people in that game?
LoL is not totally skill based, there are levels for progression. These levels give you summoner points, glyph slots, new summoner abilities and access to better tier glyphs. A player that has played more WILL have an advantage.
The pvp part probably make sense. Rewards should be given to people who win tournament etc.
But how about pve?
I don't understand this whole "reward" thing anyway.
I play a game because I like the gameplay, the setting, the lore, the people I'm playing it with - it never crossed my mind that I have to get a "reward" for that - he, it's not like I made some big achievement that should be rewarded, I'm just playing a damn computer game!
Equally with the "time spent" argument - when I like the gameplay I like to spend time in that game. Are people so weird these days that they want a reward for not playing the game, i.e. for not spending time in it?
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
MMOs dont directly reward time spent. You can spend 20 hours logge onto a game and spend all that time chatting, the guy who logs in for 10 hours and fights monsters will level up. Your character impoves by playing the game (shock!), not just time spent. It not only improves your characters stats, but improves the player's ability to make decisions, their reflextes, strategy, knowledge, all that stuff you mentioned. It all comes with time, and obviously a person whose put in the time and effort to make their character better will become a better player than one that, say, bought a character from another person or got power leveled.
Time =/= reward...effort does. More time just means more opportunity to put forth the effort.
He said skill.
How's GW2 fit in? I saw the PVP videos. Felt like watching Frost Mages all over again.
1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1
"Oh Shit!"
11111111111111111111111
"Whew"
1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1--1
Even an FPS or RTS you wont get good at without spending time playing it first.
I'm not sure why so many people think they should instantly be better than someone with far more experience (actual experience, not experience points) than themselves. I feel old saying it, and maybe it means I am getting old, but I think this new generation seems to feel more entitled to getting something for nothing than previous ones.
Yeah, ok ... the gameplay should be its own reward, not everything is about chasing the carrots, about racing the treadmill, finding your own fun rather than racing everyone else's harvest rates ... I don't really want to argue against that angle of seeing things even though most games out there are structured as an overt treadmill.
The inherent flaw in basing an MMO around the concept that "Game play is it's own reward" is that once game play itself ceases to be rewarding, game play ceases altogether.
That's not going to work for long term MMO gaming.
All games? Every game that is made? No games ever should be based on progression? All games forever should fit your criteria?
Personally, I'm glad there is a variety of games, some based on skill, some based on progression (time in game).
Most gamers like them both.
It looks like we are still living in the 90's, people stuffing games into very restrictive genres going insane when they stumble upon a game like Borderlands and cant decide if it's a RPG or FPS game... I see the genre borders blending more and more with games like Borderlands, Mass Effect, Fallout 3 and such, and I damn well hope to see similar MMORPGFPS games and not just RPG or FPS based games.
And what's with the "time spent is RPG thing" arguing anyway, last I played Battlefield BC2 I got better guns and accessories depending on the time I spent in the game, sure I got them faster the better I played but it's essentially the same. Same thing in Space Marine MP. It's neccesary feature in online games where you want people to spend as much as possible time, or as long as possible on a long run. Rewarding time spent is here to stay regardless of the genre if it's an online game trying to keep players in the game by a carrot, which is very common nowadays.
It may be a little off topic, but I just have to say...I've never been a fan of FPS', but not since Goldeneye have I been so enthralled by one quite as much as Borderlands. Awesome game that. Hope the sequel lives up to the original.
To reward time spent is to reward the people who keep subbing.
Time spent = Money.
That's the bottom line.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
I think your comment about the carrot is at the heart of this thread.
There are current sentiments floating around that you don't need the carrot. Or that the carrot is the fun of the game itself.
It's easy to apply that to a finite game. One with a start and a finish like a SPRPG, But I am struggling with that concept and how it applies to the long term MMORPG.
So much this.
Even srpgs have carrots anyways. Its just not a grind because the whole game only lasts 20-100 hours.
The old equation use to be time + risk = reward. They dropped the risk from the equation and boredom ensued.
In EQ, you lost exp points for dying, you had to retrieve your corpse or lose your stuff etc. It took some amount of skill to get to the level cap and stay there. Perhaps not a lot, but more than just playing 24 hours a day beating your head against a wall until you "achieved" max level.
It also took social skill, most classes were incapable of soloing their way to max level in a reasonable time frame, so they had to have the social skills to work with others in order to progress.
Even crafting had some level of risk involved in old school MMOs, you risked losing the ingredient during a failed attempt, sometimes losing thousands of gold in the process.
Yeah, combat may be rather skillless for the most part, though games like FFXI in the days before WoW, required lots of teamwork in combat in order to progress at a reasonable pace (another layer of social skill), but that doesn't mean MMOs were without skill requirements, at least before the Wowified themepark invasion. It was just a different type of skill requirement, more social and perseverance oriented and less twitch/strategy. Combat was only a part of the game, not 90% of it.
When things were reduced to time = reward is when MMORPGs became boring IMO. Everyone could do everything, no one had to depend on anyone else, and you were 100% guaranteed to reach max level just for showing up and playing. Even a social reject can reach the level cap at the same pace as everyone else.
This is all my opinion of course, but I'm an ex MMORPG gamer and I don't think I'll ever go back for the reasons I listed above. The genre has moved away from virtual worlds that feel realistic and alive to game worlds that feel void of even a vestige of soul, muchless life and any developer that even attempts to make anything else is instantly shot down in the market place or lacks the investment support to fully flesh out their game.
Correct. It is effort applied and lessons learned that generate the rewards, not time.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Then please correct him about it rather than just making a general statement. Everything I have read about GW2 indicates that they want a horizontal progression rather than vertical progression which is what he was saying. If that is incorrect, I would like to know how it is incorrect as it may change some of my thoughts on the game.
You are confusing me, you speak out againts time based gameplay, yet you propose features which are the BACKBONE of time based mmos, time to get mats for crafting, time to get money to pay rent for housing, time to get resources to counter item decay...
It seems to me that you are just unhappy that rift or wow follow the same old paradigm, easy to play hard to master, nowadays ofcourse, too easy to play too hard to master, especially in pvp, with every expansion new mechanics are introduced, i dont know about current wow, but at the time i played you needed 3 hotbars @ howmanywerethere? 10 skills hotkeyed.
Soo.... welcome in the club, it was stated a long time ago that wow gameplay was like someone would doscontinue the grades B, D, E and F at school, taking away any incentive to try to be better to anyone who is not a egghead (hardcore raider, arena junkie), if you can get a C for free, why bother?
Flame on!