Originally posted by azzamasin Sounds very much like a open ended skill based class system is in the works and if so I am even more excited. I always disliked the rigid class systems of games like WoW, EQ1 and Neverwinter. I much prefer the skill based systems seen in Asheron's Call, Fallen Earth or if you go the class based system then go in a way similar to Rift or Elder Scrolls Online.
An open ended skill based system that allows you to build a character with the characteristics you want. Koool
A system that allows a character to be a raid primary tank one minute and a main tank healer 10 minutes later. Not cool at all.
I do not know ESO, but RIft was (and is) a dogs breakfast.
It doesn't take me 10 minutes to log into my alt in Everquest 1.
Oh you weren't talking about Everquest 1? Because people did that ALL THE TIME in Everquest 1.
Character dingbat, character not player. Your alt was a different character to your main,.
You missed the point.
Currently I can level a Warrior tank and a Cleric healer and as my guild needs, I simply log over to whichever is needed, in the span of 30 seconds.
Thus, there is little point in restricting classes or roles because in the end, it doesnt matter.
Of course it matters.
It didn't take him less than 10 minutes to get that character up to the level necessary to be useful, thats the difference.
Just being able to change your role or your build from one moment to the next is bad. It breaks down the need for players to seek out others to fill certain roles the same way tuning mmos to solo play destroys the challenge and interdependence that used to exist in online MULTIPLAYER games. This line of thinking is what has resulted in the complete streamlining and trivialization of the genre and that thought process is the culprit for removing the need or any sense of community in mmorpgs.
Originally posted by azzamasin Sounds very much like a open ended skill based class system is in the works and if so I am even more excited. I always disliked the rigid class systems of games like WoW, EQ1 and Neverwinter. I much prefer the skill based systems seen in Asheron's Call, Fallen Earth or if you go the class based system then go in a way similar to Rift or Elder Scrolls Online.
An open ended skill based system that allows you to build a character with the characteristics you want. Koool
A system that allows a character to be a raid primary tank one minute and a main tank healer 10 minutes later. Not cool at all.
I do not know ESO, but RIft was (and is) a dogs breakfast.
It doesn't take me 10 minutes to log into my alt in Everquest 1.
Oh you weren't talking about Everquest 1? Because people did that ALL THE TIME in Everquest 1.
Character dingbat, character not player. Your alt was a different character to your main,.
But you are the same player. What difference does the log screen make? I don't transform into another person. is that what you thought happened when the main healer DC'd and someone had to log into their healer alt to replace them?
LOL
OK I am one of those strange Role Playing types that thinks that the character is the thing, the basis of play.
You seem to be one of those strange folks who think that it is all about the player and their reflexes and skill.
There is no reconciling those two views, so I will not try. But the thing that was under discussion was character progression not player progression.
I dissagree. Say I want to be a Dwarf Paladin Tank. I can do that and then I can choose to not learn anything outside of that too. I can restrict myself to only wearing plate gear etc.
AND if I choose I can wear all plate gear except for a cloth hood. Then say I discover a dojo and the master inside teaches me to be a monk. I sacrifice my plate armor for chainmail and a cloth robe and start a new journey with my character.
In classic RPG/MMO the devs tell me what a paladin is and what one can do.
In my scenario I am a paladin that made a journey to be a monk.
Many many more RP possibilities are open now.
Like I said maybe now I can finally be a Dwarf leather wearer dual wield daggers and tanking and I have to role play as a Druid by praying to my goddess and gathering reagents in the forest for my spells. What better way to be a Druid than to have to actually go and be a Druid instead of the UI and game telling me I am a Druid?
An open ended skill based system that allows you to build a character with the characteristics you want. Koool
A system that allows a character to be a raid primary tank one minute and a main tank healer 10 minutes later. Not cool at all.
I do not know ESO, but RIft was (and is) a dogs breakfast.
I dissagree. Say I want to be a Dwarf Paladin Tank. I can do that and then I can choose to not learn anything outside of that too. I can restrict myself to only wearing plate gear etc.
AND if I choose I can wear all plate gear except for a cloth hood. Then say I discover a dojo and the master inside teaches me to be a monk. I sacrifice my plate armor for chainmail and a cloth robe and start a new journey with my character.
In classic RPG/MMO the devs tell me what a paladin is and what one can do.
In my scenario I am a paladin that made a journey to be a monk.
Many many more RP possibilities are open now.
Like I said maybe now I can finally be a Dwarf leather wearer dual wield daggers and tanking and I have to role play as a Druid by praying to my goddess and gathering reagents in the forest for my spells. What better way to be a Druid than to have to actually go and be a Druid instead of the UI and game telling me I am a Druid?
I agree, in fact I said it earlier
An open ended skill based system that allows you to build a character with the characteristics you want. Koool
A UI that lets you press a button to change from that Dwarf-Paladin->Monk-Tank to a Dwarf-Druid-Healer in 5 seconds not cool.
An open ended skill based system that allows you to build a character with the characteristics you want. Koool
A system that allows a character to be a raid primary tank one minute and a main tank healer 10 minutes later. Not cool at all.
I do not know ESO, but RIft was (and is) a dogs breakfast.
I dissagree. Say I want to be a Dwarf Paladin Tank. I can do that and then I can choose to not learn anything outside of that too. I can restrict myself to only wearing plate gear etc.
AND if I choose I can wear all plate gear except for a cloth hood. Then say I discover a dojo and the master inside teaches me to be a monk. I sacrifice my plate armor for chainmail and a cloth robe and start a new journey with my character.
In classic RPG/MMO the devs tell me what a paladin is and what one can do.
In my scenario I am a paladin that made a journey to be a monk.
Many many more RP possibilities are open now.
Like I said maybe now I can finally be a Dwarf leather wearer dual wield daggers and tanking and I have to role play as a Druid by praying to my goddess and gathering reagents in the forest for my spells. What better way to be a Druid than to have to actually go and be a Druid instead of the UI and game telling me I am a Druid?
I agree, in fact I said it earlier
An open ended skill based system that allows you to build a character with the characteristics you want. Koool
A UI that lets you press a button to change from that Dwarf-Paladin->Monk-Tank to a Dwarf-Druid-Healer in 5 seconds not cool.
That isn't how FFXIV/FFXI work, you have to level up every class or job you play. You just don't have to create a new alt. I don't even know who you think you are arguing with that is advocating Rift's system of being able to switch between souls to fill different roles without any progression in that path needed.
An open ended skill based system that allows you to build a character with the characteristics you want. Koool
A system that allows a character to be a raid primary tank one minute and a main tank healer 10 minutes later. Not cool at all.
I do not know ESO, but RIft was (and is) a dogs breakfast.
I dissagree. Say I want to be a Dwarf Paladin Tank. I can do that and then I can choose to not learn anything outside of that too. I can restrict myself to only wearing plate gear etc.
AND if I choose I can wear all plate gear except for a cloth hood. Then say I discover a dojo and the master inside teaches me to be a monk. I sacrifice my plate armor for chainmail and a cloth robe and start a new journey with my character.
In classic RPG/MMO the devs tell me what a paladin is and what one can do.
In my scenario I am a paladin that made a journey to be a monk.
Many many more RP possibilities are open now.
Like I said maybe now I can finally be a Dwarf leather wearer dual wield daggers and tanking and I have to role play as a Druid by praying to my goddess and gathering reagents in the forest for my spells. What better way to be a Druid than to have to actually go and be a Druid instead of the UI and game telling me I am a Druid?
I agree, in fact I said it earlier
An open ended skill based system that allows you to build a character with the characteristics you want. Koool
A UI that lets you press a button to change from that Dwarf-Paladin->Monk-Tank to a Dwarf-Druid-Healer in 5 seconds not cool.
Right.
There has to be drawbacks to switching, and limitations as to how far you can go down any tree while maintaining abilities from another. Everyone who has ever removed those limitations has been left with a complete mess of a game (see Darkfall 1 for a perfect example).
If you decide you want to hybridize yourself, it can't be without repercussions. If you decide you want to stay true to your class, but change your build, you should have to retrain your way back up to master that build. Its not just a free switch whenever you want to "change roles." If you decide you want to go with another class altogether, congratulations on your past accomplishment. welcome to level 1.
Ok, so some people do not want to be able to switch between say tank and healer.
Does this mean they only want to allow one character per account?
One account per IP address?
I have one of every class at max level and geared. Which do you want? It takes me less than 30 seconds to log onto any of them and do any role. Take your time. RP if you want. OK Guardian it is. Let me log in. Ok I am on my guardian. Oh Bob logged in you need my Cleric. Righto Ill log over to him, brb.
You can keep your restrictions and load screen RP with EQ and EQ2 I will take being able to be what I want, expand my characters horizons and roleplay on a much more serious level than ever before with less restrictions.
Ok, so some people do not want to be able to switch between say tank and healer.
Does this mean they only want to allow one character per account?
One account per IP address?
I have one of every class at max level and geared. Which do you want? It takes me less than 30 seconds to log onto any of them and do any role. Take your time. RP if you want. OK Guardian it is. Let me log in. Ok I am on my guardian. Oh Bob logged in you need my Cleric. Righto Ill log over to him, brb.
You can keep your restrictions and load screen RP with EQ and EQ2 I will take being able to be what I want, expand my characters horizons and roleplay on a much more serious level than ever before with less restrictions.
Also, you have to understand that this destroys a players sense of identity. Especially on a pvp server, I don't want to see a player I've fought 100 times and then come to find out he is a different class today than the last time I saw him.
The shortcomings of the system you are describing by far outweigh the benefits.
An open ended skill based system that allows you to build a character with the characteristics you want. Koool
A system that allows a character to be a raid primary tank one minute and a main tank healer 10 minutes later. Not cool at all.
I do not know ESO, but RIft was (and is) a dogs breakfast.
I dissagree. Say I want to be a Dwarf Paladin Tank. I can do that and then I can choose to not learn anything outside of that too. I can restrict myself to only wearing plate gear etc.
AND if I choose I can wear all plate gear except for a cloth hood. Then say I discover a dojo and the master inside teaches me to be a monk. I sacrifice my plate armor for chainmail and a cloth robe and start a new journey with my character.
In classic RPG/MMO the devs tell me what a paladin is and what one can do.
In my scenario I am a paladin that made a journey to be a monk.
Many many more RP possibilities are open now.
Like I said maybe now I can finally be a Dwarf leather wearer dual wield daggers and tanking and I have to role play as a Druid by praying to my goddess and gathering reagents in the forest for my spells. What better way to be a Druid than to have to actually go and be a Druid instead of the UI and game telling me I am a Druid?
I agree, in fact I said it earlier
An open ended skill based system that allows you to build a character with the characteristics you want. Koool
A UI that lets you press a button to change from that Dwarf-Paladin->Monk-Tank to a Dwarf-Druid-Healer in 5 seconds not cool.
Right.
There has to be drawbacks to switching, and limitations as to how far you can go down any tree while maintaining abilities from another. Everyone who has ever removed those limitations has been left with a complete mess of a game (see Darkfall 1 for a perfect example).
If you decide you want to hybridize yourself, it can't be without repercussions. If you decide you want to stay true to your class, but change your build, you should have to retrain your way back up to master that build. Its not just a free switch whenever you want to "change roles." If you decide you want to go with another class altogether, congratulations on your past accomplishment. welcome to level 1.
Oh yes there needs to be restrictions but it needs to be more along the lines of 8 spellgems, and I dont mean also 100 AA abilities, I mean 8 abilities total, then you can put whatever into thsoe 8 but all you get is 8. Gear is another restriction, are you really going to do much damage with your fireballs when in strength plate gear?
Yes I agree about Darkfall, everyone was one build.
Dave believes that they can balance it and make it really cool so we will see.
Ok, so some people do not want to be able to switch between say tank and healer.
Does this mean they only want to allow one character per account?
One account per IP address?
I have one of every class at max level and geared. Which do you want? It takes me less than 30 seconds to log onto any of them and do any role. Take your time. RP if you want. OK Guardian it is. Let me log in. Ok I am on my guardian. Oh Bob logged in you need my Cleric. Righto Ill log over to him, brb.
You can keep your restrictions and load screen RP with EQ and EQ2 I will take being able to be what I want, expand my characters horizons and roleplay on a much more serious level than ever before with less restrictions.
Also, you have to understand that this destroys a players sense of identity. Especially on a pvp server, I don't want to see a player I've fought 100 times and then come to find out he is a different class today than the last time I saw him.
The shortcomings of the system you are describing by far outweigh the benefits.
Because that rogue totally doesnt have a mage alt...
And because you clearly are unable to see that he is wearing cloth gear today instead of leather...
Ok, so some people do not want to be able to switch between say tank and healer.
Does this mean they only want to allow one character per account?
One account per IP address?
I have one of every class at max level and geared. Which do you want? It takes me less than 30 seconds to log onto any of them and do any role. Take your time. RP if you want. OK Guardian it is. Let me log in. Ok I am on my guardian. Oh Bob logged in you need my Cleric. Righto Ill log over to him, brb.
You can keep your restrictions and load screen RP with EQ and EQ2 I will take being able to be what I want, expand my characters horizons and roleplay on a much more serious level than ever before with less restrictions.
Also, you have to understand that this destroys a players sense of identity. Especially on a pvp server, I don't want to see a player I've fought 100 times and then come to find out he is a different class today than the last time I saw him.
The shortcomings of the system you are describing by far outweigh the benefits.
Because that rogue totally doesnt have a mage alt...
And because you clearly are unable to see that he is wearing cloth gear today instead of leather...
A rogue with a mage alt with the same name? What?
If a player begins a new class, his past experiences should be diminished. Thats all I'm sayin'. You just can't have it all. Imagination is a wonderful thing, but you aren't considering the consequences. Like I already said,
It breaks down the need for players to seek out others to fill certain roles the same way tuning mmos to solo play destroys the challenge and interdependence that used to exist in online MULTIPLAYER games. This line of thinking is what has resulted in the complete streamlining and trivialization of the genre and that thought process is the culprit for removing the need or any sense of community in mmorpgs.
I have complete faith SOE understands this basic concept and the need for player diversity.
This would be my preference. Either an open system like Elder Scrolls Online or even a job system like Final Fantasy (whatever the number is these days).
I want to be able to have one character instead of several alts. Now, do not get me wrong, I do not want to be able to do everything at the same time, but I want to be tank, ranged DPS, healer, and utility, just not at the same time. I need to have limited abilities usable at any given time, but I definitely would like to be able to spends years maxing out one character instead of having several maxed alts that I have to switch between all the time.
Alts are especially an issue with special events, like holiday, xpac, etc. I hate having to do all the events on each character.
Just let me have one character that I can put years into.
People really like roles and some games that blur the lines with roles turns people off. I personally liked GW2's class and combat system, because you could have, say, a wizard tank, or a guardian DPSer, or a ranger healer, etc etc. But in GW2, everyone was pretty much a mix of all classes. Sure you could heavily spec into one type like I mentioned, but for the most part, every class regardless of spec was sort of a mix.
I enjoyed that system, but my wife hated it. I asked her why, and she said "I just like having a role and mastering it". So I can see the appeal in that kind of system.
I really like the ideas Dave has for EQ2. In old MUDs, like Legends of Kesmai, you could sacrafice a level and completely recreate your main character. So if you had a really high level wizard, and you wanted to be a martial artist, you just did the ancestory process and made a new class. That way you didn't have to completely reroll if you didn't want to.
The concept of not being locked into a single role, and being able to have one main character that's able to move between roles is an awesome step in the right direction.
The more I hear about EQN, the more I want to play it.
I would love a system similar to FF11, where I can level to 50 as a Druid then switch and level to 50 as a Bard, and switch between back and forth in between.
I do not want a system, class based or skill based, that blends everything together. I like the archetypes and the defined roles each class brings to the table.
If it's any system other than the one similar to FFXI forget it. The problem with open skill systems like the one some of you are describing is that sooner rather than later the min/maxing starts. Then you have players looking for specific skills that have good synergy with others and before long every tanks needs these skills and every healer needs those skills and all dps has to have skills that maximize damage.
The beauty of FFXI's job system was that only thing a player had to do was level the class and not worry about juggling skills. The skills came with the class. Also the only place you could change jobs was at your home. This gave picking a class and sub class a little weight unless your party was willing to wait for you to run back to your house to switch. Also jobs had goo synergy with several other jobs so it was not uncommon to see a WAR/MNK, WAR/SAM, WAR/THF and so on.
But if EQN goes an entirely different route, I just hope it's not like Rift or any other skill switching system. Keep things at the job/class level or make it like SWG. BUt if they do make it like SWG there will be no need for roles nor a trinity.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Is this the new thread for everyone to get heated about? I hope not. You have less than 30 days to find out what this game is. Then you can post here and on SOE's forums as if you have magical powers to change it to w/e it is you want the game to be.
So many people are going to be angry that this game isn't just a retread of everything we've seen before.
I would love a system similar to FF11, where I can level to 50 as a Druid then switch and level to 50 as a Bard, and switch between back and forth in between.
I do not want a system, class based or skill based, that blends everything together. I like the archetypes and the defined roles each class brings to the table.
It would be illogical to put in a lot of hard work on a system that lets you freely change your character's class, and then just make every class perform all roles. Also, Everquest is known for it's great and diverse class/role system. I doubt they'd throw that out the window.
If they do make it like ffxi I wonder if they will also make it ARAC like ffxi. Having racial restrictions on classes would kill a lot of what makes ffxis system work so well IMO.
My mithra might have made a better thief and mage, but nothing was stopping me from also leveling up a Warrior and Ninja, or a Ranger, etc etc.
Ok, so some people do not want to be able to switch between say tank and healer.
Does this mean they only want to allow one character per account?
One account per IP address?
I have one of every class at max level and geared. Which do you want? It takes me less than 30 seconds to log onto any of them and do any role. Take your time. RP if you want. OK Guardian it is. Let me log in. Ok I am on my guardian. Oh Bob logged in you need my Cleric. Righto Ill log over to him, brb.
You can keep your restrictions and load screen RP with EQ and EQ2 I will take being able to be what I want, expand my characters horizons and roleplay on a much more serious level than ever before with less restrictions.
Also, you have to understand that this destroys a players sense of identity. Especially on a pvp server, I don't want to see a player I've fought 100 times and then come to find out he is a different class today than the last time I saw him.
The shortcomings of the system you are describing by far outweigh the benefits.
Because that rogue totally doesnt have a mage alt...
And because you clearly are unable to see that he is wearing cloth gear today instead of leather...
A rogue with a mage alt with the same name? What?
If a player begins a new class, his past experiences should be diminished. Thats all I'm sayin'. You just can't have it all. Imagination is a wonderful thing, but you aren't considering the consequences. Like I already said,
It breaks down the need for players to seek out others to fill certain roles the same way tuning mmos to solo play destroys the challenge and interdependence that used to exist in online MULTIPLAYER games. This line of thinking is what has resulted in the complete streamlining and trivialization of the genre and that thought process is the culprit for removing the need or any sense of community in mmorpgs.
I have complete faith SOE understands this basic concept and the need for player diversity.
I don't know what you two are going back and forth over. To me it sounds like they're going to allow some sort of system where your character is capable of switching classes so that you don't have to reroll a character from 1 to cap after you've already done so (Unless you want to).
He didn't mention anything about merging roles together (like in GW2). Dave basically just said that some characters want to try something new, but don't want to start all over again, and they plan on creating a system to cover this issue.
I for one personally enjoy maxing and becoming the best of a single class when I play an MMORPG. I generally just hate alts. I think the system talked about in the video is going to appeal to someone like me, who might play the game for years, and want to change it up, but doesn't want to start an alt to do so.
Nothing about the system he was talking about has anything to do with being anti-social. If you switch from a Paladin to a Rogue, your character is still going to need to seek out other complementary classes to play with.
One thing i haven't seen mentioned is your characters attributes and their effects on their class. How can a fighter with low intelligence suddenly cast spells, or a physically weak wizzie put on plate mail and swing a two-handed sword that they could barely lift? Not to be nit-picky (probably too influenced by D&D paper rpg), but it feels kind of wrong for a toon to do everything and do it well, regardless of his attributes. I'm all for multi-class or skills anyone can learn to shape different kinds of fighters or casters so there is some differences, but not have one toon that can do anything.
In the end won't all maxed out toons be the same? Just different names? I kinda like having a role to play and be known for. Maybe a system that lets you switch roles in the same class archetype (if they have these) would be an option. Such as a fighter changing weapons/armor to go from tank to dps, or fighter to paladin to help heal. just throwing out ideas, but i feel that for role-play or to be known on your server, being really good at a class/role and grouping will showcase your toon better.
I for one personally enjoy maxing and becoming the best of a single class when I play an MMORPG. I generally just hate alts. I think the system talked about in the video is going to appeal to someone like me, who might play the game for years, and want to change it up, but doesn't want to start an alt to do so.
Nothing about the system he was talking about has anything to do with being anti-social. If you switch from a Paladin to a Rogue, your character is still going to need to seek out other complementary classes to play with.
I kinda liked having alts. Different race, play style. I would even interact with others/groups when on diff alts. Brash and aggressive on warriors, more strategic on ranger or rogue, friendlier as cleric, etc. Makes a nice change of pace.
I guess I look at fantasy source material and then I look at multiclassing and then I look at real life then I look at multiclassing... then I feel sick to my stomach.
In the fantasy world I love Gandalf because he is a wizard... had he donned platemail and stopped casting spells halfway through the series, like he goes off to do research and then says "Screw this... I am a warrior!" I think I would have just been done with old Gandalf.
It is like in real life, I like my doctor, because he is a doctor, that is his focus... I would like him a lot less if he was a doctor and a construction worker, a policeman, and an indian chief.
I hate multiclassing, it was horrible in FFXI... sure you had an illusion of choice but in reality everyone was a total bitch if you didn't have the most optimized combo. So why not just stick to pure class with a variety of skills to choose from FOR THAT CLASS. My warrior doesn't need heal spells and fireballs.
One thing i haven't seen mentioned is your characters attributes and their effects on their class. How can a fighter with low intelligence suddenly cast spells, or a physically weak wizzie put on plate mail and swing a two-handed sword that they could barely lift? Not to be nit-picky (probably too influenced by D&D paper rpg), but it feels kind of wrong for a toon to do everything and do it well, regardless of his attributes. I'm all for multi-class or skills anyone can learn to shape different kinds of fighters or casters so there is some differences, but not have one toon that can do anything.
In the end won't all maxed out toons be the same? Just different names? I kinda like having a role to play and be known for. Maybe a system that lets you switch roles in the same class archetype (if they have these) would be an option. Such as a fighter changing weapons/armor to go from tank to dps, or fighter to paladin to help heal. just throwing out ideas, but i feel that for role-play or to be known on your server, being really good at a class/role and grouping will showcase your toon better.
just me 2 cents.
That would just be a part of the "Respec". Your stats would get changed around as well. If you're looking for a Roleplay-style answer, it could be many things.
The main thing that I would worry about is gear. We don't know what kind of gear system EQN will have, but if it's anything like EQ or EQ2, it's going to be a real problem to "change classes/roles" when you got a full set of raid gear as a tank but you switch over to a mage or rogue.
One thing to consider though is that the game is going to be a sandbox, with probably a huge emphasis on crafting. So maybe this could be a way they stimulate the economy. A lot of players with a class-changing system is going to want to buy and maintain more than 1 gear setup.
As for reputation. I think a "good" player will be able to play any class well. You'll build a reputation as a good player or a bad player. Nothing really changes. If you're always switching classes and never learning how to play, you'll have a bad rep.
I guess I look at fantasy source material and then I look at multiclassing and then I look at real life then I look at multiclassing... then I feel sick to my stomach.
In the fantasy world I love Gandalf because he is a wizard... had he donned platemail and stopped casting spells halfway through the series, like he goes off to do research and then says "Screw this... I am a warrior!" I think I would have just been done with old Gandalf.
It is like in real life, I like my doctor, because he is a doctor, that is his focus... I would like him a lot less if he was a doctor and a construction worker, a policeman, and an indian chief.
I hate multiclassing, it was horrible in FFXI... sure you had an illusion of choice but in reality everyone was a total bitch if you didn't have the most optimized combo. So why not just stick to pure class with a variety of skills to choose from FOR THAT CLASS. My warrior doesn't need heal spells and fireballs.
I think the system Dave was talking about was where the game has "classes" and you can just do something to change your class.
Like you have a 43 Druid, and one day you decide you don't like druid, or you just want to try something else, so you do a quest, or pay a SC fee, or whatever, and you get to pick a new class of your choice without having to start over.
You're not going to have a Druid Warrior Rogue running around.
I guess I look at fantasy source material and then I look at multiclassing and then I look at real life then I look at multiclassing... then I feel sick to my stomach.
In the fantasy world I love Gandalf because he is a wizard... had he donned platemail and stopped casting spells halfway through the series, like he goes off to do research and then says "Screw this... I am a warrior!" I think I would have just been done with old Gandalf.
It is like in real life, I like my doctor, because he is a doctor, that is his focus... I would like him a lot less if he was a doctor and a construction worker, a policeman, and an indian chief.
I hate multiclassing, it was horrible in FFXI... sure you had an illusion of choice but in reality everyone was a total bitch if you didn't have the most optimized combo. So why not just stick to pure class with a variety of skills to choose from FOR THAT CLASS. My warrior doesn't need heal spells and fireballs.
Comments
Of course it matters.
It didn't take him less than 10 minutes to get that character up to the level necessary to be useful, thats the difference.
Just being able to change your role or your build from one moment to the next is bad. It breaks down the need for players to seek out others to fill certain roles the same way tuning mmos to solo play destroys the challenge and interdependence that used to exist in online MULTIPLAYER games. This line of thinking is what has resulted in the complete streamlining and trivialization of the genre and that thought process is the culprit for removing the need or any sense of community in mmorpgs.
I dissagree. Say I want to be a Dwarf Paladin Tank. I can do that and then I can choose to not learn anything outside of that too. I can restrict myself to only wearing plate gear etc.
AND if I choose I can wear all plate gear except for a cloth hood. Then say I discover a dojo and the master inside teaches me to be a monk. I sacrifice my plate armor for chainmail and a cloth robe and start a new journey with my character.
In classic RPG/MMO the devs tell me what a paladin is and what one can do.
In my scenario I am a paladin that made a journey to be a monk.
Many many more RP possibilities are open now.
Like I said maybe now I can finally be a Dwarf leather wearer dual wield daggers and tanking and I have to role play as a Druid by praying to my goddess and gathering reagents in the forest for my spells. What better way to be a Druid than to have to actually go and be a Druid instead of the UI and game telling me I am a Druid?
I agree, in fact I said it earlier
An open ended skill based system that allows you to build a character with the characteristics you want. Koool
A UI that lets you press a button to change from that Dwarf-Paladin->Monk-Tank to a Dwarf-Druid-Healer in 5 seconds not cool.
That isn't how FFXIV/FFXI work, you have to level up every class or job you play. You just don't have to create a new alt. I don't even know who you think you are arguing with that is advocating Rift's system of being able to switch between souls to fill different roles without any progression in that path needed.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
Right.
There has to be drawbacks to switching, and limitations as to how far you can go down any tree while maintaining abilities from another. Everyone who has ever removed those limitations has been left with a complete mess of a game (see Darkfall 1 for a perfect example).
If you decide you want to hybridize yourself, it can't be without repercussions. If you decide you want to stay true to your class, but change your build, you should have to retrain your way back up to master that build. Its not just a free switch whenever you want to "change roles." If you decide you want to go with another class altogether, congratulations on your past accomplishment. welcome to level 1.
1 character and 1 name is the way to go. I hate alts.
Give the altoholics the ability to do their thing but allow me to level every class on 1 character.
Ok, so some people do not want to be able to switch between say tank and healer.
Does this mean they only want to allow one character per account?
One account per IP address?
I have one of every class at max level and geared. Which do you want? It takes me less than 30 seconds to log onto any of them and do any role. Take your time. RP if you want. OK Guardian it is. Let me log in. Ok I am on my guardian. Oh Bob logged in you need my Cleric. Righto Ill log over to him, brb.
You can keep your restrictions and load screen RP with EQ and EQ2 I will take being able to be what I want, expand my characters horizons and roleplay on a much more serious level than ever before with less restrictions.
Also, you have to understand that this destroys a players sense of identity. Especially on a pvp server, I don't want to see a player I've fought 100 times and then come to find out he is a different class today than the last time I saw him.
The shortcomings of the system you are describing by far outweigh the benefits.
Oh yes there needs to be restrictions but it needs to be more along the lines of 8 spellgems, and I dont mean also 100 AA abilities, I mean 8 abilities total, then you can put whatever into thsoe 8 but all you get is 8. Gear is another restriction, are you really going to do much damage with your fireballs when in strength plate gear?
Yes I agree about Darkfall, everyone was one build.
Dave believes that they can balance it and make it really cool so we will see.
Because that rogue totally doesnt have a mage alt...
And because you clearly are unable to see that he is wearing cloth gear today instead of leather...
A rogue with a mage alt with the same name? What?
If a player begins a new class, his past experiences should be diminished. Thats all I'm sayin'. You just can't have it all. Imagination is a wonderful thing, but you aren't considering the consequences. Like I already said,
It breaks down the need for players to seek out others to fill certain roles the same way tuning mmos to solo play destroys the challenge and interdependence that used to exist in online MULTIPLAYER games. This line of thinking is what has resulted in the complete streamlining and trivialization of the genre and that thought process is the culprit for removing the need or any sense of community in mmorpgs.
I have complete faith SOE understands this basic concept and the need for player diversity.
People really like roles and some games that blur the lines with roles turns people off. I personally liked GW2's class and combat system, because you could have, say, a wizard tank, or a guardian DPSer, or a ranger healer, etc etc. But in GW2, everyone was pretty much a mix of all classes. Sure you could heavily spec into one type like I mentioned, but for the most part, every class regardless of spec was sort of a mix.
I enjoyed that system, but my wife hated it. I asked her why, and she said "I just like having a role and mastering it". So I can see the appeal in that kind of system.
I really like the ideas Dave has for EQ2. In old MUDs, like Legends of Kesmai, you could sacrafice a level and completely recreate your main character. So if you had a really high level wizard, and you wanted to be a martial artist, you just did the ancestory process and made a new class. That way you didn't have to completely reroll if you didn't want to.
The concept of not being locked into a single role, and being able to have one main character that's able to move between roles is an awesome step in the right direction.
The more I hear about EQN, the more I want to play it.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
I would love a system similar to FF11, where I can level to 50 as a Druid then switch and level to 50 as a Bard, and switch between back and forth in between.
I do not want a system, class based or skill based, that blends everything together. I like the archetypes and the defined roles each class brings to the table.
If it's any system other than the one similar to FFXI forget it. The problem with open skill systems like the one some of you are describing is that sooner rather than later the min/maxing starts. Then you have players looking for specific skills that have good synergy with others and before long every tanks needs these skills and every healer needs those skills and all dps has to have skills that maximize damage.
The beauty of FFXI's job system was that only thing a player had to do was level the class and not worry about juggling skills. The skills came with the class. Also the only place you could change jobs was at your home. This gave picking a class and sub class a little weight unless your party was willing to wait for you to run back to your house to switch. Also jobs had goo synergy with several other jobs so it was not uncommon to see a WAR/MNK, WAR/SAM, WAR/THF and so on.
But if EQN goes an entirely different route, I just hope it's not like Rift or any other skill switching system. Keep things at the job/class level or make it like SWG. BUt if they do make it like SWG there will be no need for roles nor a trinity.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
You have less than 30 days to find out what this game is. Then you can post here and on SOE's forums as if you have magical powers to change it to w/e it is you want the game to be.
So many people are going to be angry that this game isn't just a retread of everything we've seen before.
It would be illogical to put in a lot of hard work on a system that lets you freely change your character's class, and then just make every class perform all roles. Also, Everquest is known for it's great and diverse class/role system. I doubt they'd throw that out the window.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
My mithra might have made a better thief and mage, but nothing was stopping me from also leveling up a Warrior and Ninja, or a Ranger, etc etc.
Wow now I'm staring to miss ffxi haha.
I don't know what you two are going back and forth over. To me it sounds like they're going to allow some sort of system where your character is capable of switching classes so that you don't have to reroll a character from 1 to cap after you've already done so (Unless you want to).
He didn't mention anything about merging roles together (like in GW2). Dave basically just said that some characters want to try something new, but don't want to start all over again, and they plan on creating a system to cover this issue.
I for one personally enjoy maxing and becoming the best of a single class when I play an MMORPG. I generally just hate alts. I think the system talked about in the video is going to appeal to someone like me, who might play the game for years, and want to change it up, but doesn't want to start an alt to do so.
Nothing about the system he was talking about has anything to do with being anti-social. If you switch from a Paladin to a Rogue, your character is still going to need to seek out other complementary classes to play with.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
One thing i haven't seen mentioned is your characters attributes and their effects on their class. How can a fighter with low intelligence suddenly cast spells, or a physically weak wizzie put on plate mail and swing a two-handed sword that they could barely lift? Not to be nit-picky (probably too influenced by D&D paper rpg), but it feels kind of wrong for a toon to do everything and do it well, regardless of his attributes. I'm all for multi-class or skills anyone can learn to shape different kinds of fighters or casters so there is some differences, but not have one toon that can do anything.
In the end won't all maxed out toons be the same? Just different names? I kinda like having a role to play and be known for. Maybe a system that lets you switch roles in the same class archetype (if they have these) would be an option. Such as a fighter changing weapons/armor to go from tank to dps, or fighter to paladin to help heal. just throwing out ideas, but i feel that for role-play or to be known on your server, being really good at a class/role and grouping will showcase your toon better.
just me 2 cents.
I kinda liked having alts. Different race, play style. I would even interact with others/groups when on diff alts. Brash and aggressive on warriors, more strategic on ranger or rogue, friendlier as cleric, etc. Makes a nice change of pace.
I guess I look at fantasy source material and then I look at multiclassing and then I look at real life then I look at multiclassing... then I feel sick to my stomach.
In the fantasy world I love Gandalf because he is a wizard... had he donned platemail and stopped casting spells halfway through the series, like he goes off to do research and then says "Screw this... I am a warrior!" I think I would have just been done with old Gandalf.
It is like in real life, I like my doctor, because he is a doctor, that is his focus... I would like him a lot less if he was a doctor and a construction worker, a policeman, and an indian chief.
I hate multiclassing, it was horrible in FFXI... sure you had an illusion of choice but in reality everyone was a total bitch if you didn't have the most optimized combo. So why not just stick to pure class with a variety of skills to choose from FOR THAT CLASS. My warrior doesn't need heal spells and fireballs.
Help support an artist and gamer who has lost his tools to create and play: http://www.gofundme.com/u63nzcgk
That would just be a part of the "Respec". Your stats would get changed around as well. If you're looking for a Roleplay-style answer, it could be many things.
The main thing that I would worry about is gear. We don't know what kind of gear system EQN will have, but if it's anything like EQ or EQ2, it's going to be a real problem to "change classes/roles" when you got a full set of raid gear as a tank but you switch over to a mage or rogue.
One thing to consider though is that the game is going to be a sandbox, with probably a huge emphasis on crafting. So maybe this could be a way they stimulate the economy. A lot of players with a class-changing system is going to want to buy and maintain more than 1 gear setup.
As for reputation. I think a "good" player will be able to play any class well. You'll build a reputation as a good player or a bad player. Nothing really changes. If you're always switching classes and never learning how to play, you'll have a bad rep.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
I think the system Dave was talking about was where the game has "classes" and you can just do something to change your class.
Like you have a 43 Druid, and one day you decide you don't like druid, or you just want to try something else, so you do a quest, or pay a SC fee, or whatever, and you get to pick a new class of your choice without having to start over.
You're not going to have a Druid Warrior Rogue running around.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
I guess I look at fantasy source material and then I look at multiclassing and then I look at real life then I look at multiclassing... then I feel sick to my stomach.
In the fantasy world I love Gandalf because he is a wizard... had he donned platemail and stopped casting spells halfway through the series, like he goes off to do research and then says "Screw this... I am a warrior!" I think I would have just been done with old Gandalf.
It is like in real life, I like my doctor, because he is a doctor, that is his focus... I would like him a lot less if he was a doctor and a construction worker, a policeman, and an indian chief.
I hate multiclassing, it was horrible in FFXI... sure you had an illusion of choice but in reality everyone was a total bitch if you didn't have the most optimized combo. So why not just stick to pure class with a variety of skills to choose from FOR THAT CLASS. My warrior doesn't need heal spells and fireballs.
Help support an artist and gamer who has lost his tools to create and play: http://www.gofundme.com/u63nzcgk