the points I & many others raise in this thread & in the original are INARGUABLE.
having no penalty core role adjustment is a detriment to player identity & constancy that is key for PvP, & also a stronger sense of community.
It's extremely arguable. You may not like it personally, but I think I don't just think this proposed system is a good thing, I know it's a good thing. The freedom to continue playing a main character but not being locked into one class or play style is a great feature to keep the game fresh and entertaining for people.
I don't think it would be good to just be able to change it on the fly, but a system that allows you to switch classes without having to completely start over is a step in the right direction.
for class system, see ISTARIA/HORIZONS. They did multi-classing flawlessly.
I hope I can have just one character, but I also hope that lets say level 100 is the max, that I have to level EVERY class seperately. Some skills should overlap.
Although what I think we see, is some kind of Rift-ish system
on a similar note, just cause you can play every class on 1 char persay, doesnt mean you will, especially if it gets exponentially harder. Some like to play females as their healers, I like big lizards or orcs/halfgiants as my tank, and gnome/ratonka as my rogues. I could still see that aspect being plausable for alts
Originally posted by Convo I think there will be a class system in EQN similar to EQ with no hard factions. Players will be able to change classes though hard core faction grinding and learning the new class.
Already mentioned this but here is the TLDR version, lol:
Smed said factions will be huge factor in EQN.
How will deities play into multiple skills or an open skill system?
What if it is tied to skills like now how you can betray in EQ2 from say pally to sk, there may still be that good evil race base but what if faction is added.
Maybe every time you use an SK spell you lose faction with good and gain faction with evil. Maybe the Gods are factions and as you use Pally spells you gain faction with Mithaniel Marr and your paladin spells become more powerful based on your faction meanwhile you LOSE faction with Rallos Zek and your SK spells and abilities become less powerful eventually they are useless because they are like a level 1 spell. Then imagine that Luclin and Povar and all of the gods have their own spells and you are in this twisting nether of what you can do based on what you do.
Then also when you do quests you get faction and that effects your spells and abilities. In PVP maybe killing a player gives faction and that effects everything.
I doubt this is the case but I wonder how factions will play out with the skill tree if at all.
I also wonder about deities and how with an open skill system that will work.
the points I & many others raise in this thread & in the original are INARGUABLE.
having no penalty core role adjustment is a detriment to player identity & constancy that is key for PvP, & also a stronger sense of community.
It's extremely arguable. You may not like it personally, but I think I don't just think this proposed system is a good thing, I know it's a good thing. The freedom to continue playing a main character but not being locked into one class or play style is a great feature to keep the game fresh and entertaining for people.
I don't think it would be good to just be able to change it on the fly, but a system that allows you to switch classes without having to completely start over is a step in the right direction.
but you don't disagree with me.
you argue for penalized core role adjustment, as well.
I disagree with your sentiment that there needs to be a level reduction or sorts to do the class change. It shouldn't be able to be done on the fly, but this feature needs to be encouraged, not discouraged. A quest to perform, having to go back to town and switch with a cooldown, or a SC cash shop purchase or something is exactly the right amount of "penalty". Dropping levels is absurd, especially the amount of which you talked about.
Also, we all know EQ is going to have classes, not a skill tree. I don't mind either, but from a design standpoint, classes are much easier to balance. They offer a little less freedom (which can be helped by Class specialization trees) but their skills and abilities are grouped together and therefor easier to balance.
Also, even though classes are more restrictive than a skill-tree style system, EQN is going to have some sort of class changing system, so that brings in more freedom.
level reduction by half is needed so that the player has to build their reputation once more, so that they cant play FOTM hopscotch whack-a-mole
10 minute casting time & 28 day reuse is also a must for the same reasons, as a final cross-over "use ability", to finalize the core role change
no SC cash shop purchase for something so drastic, that seems out of line
a heritage quest caliber quest line, of course.
guess we agree to disagree. ;|
You build a reputation as a good player or bad player in general. You don't need to lower your level to build a reputation. In fact, most of the core players will only be concerned with cap level performance anyway. How good you can tank in some lvl 47 dungeon is going to be of little concern for hardcore players.
28 day reuse is extremely restrictive and goes against the freedom Dave was talking about.
It's a F2P game, expect to be paying money for a lot of things.
Originally posted by Convo I think there will be a class system in EQN similar to EQ with no hard factions. Players will be able to change classes though hard core faction grinding and learning the new class.
Already mentioned this but here is the TLDR version, lol:
Smed said factions will be huge factor in EQN.
How will deities play into multiple skills or an open skill system?
What if it is tied to skills like now how you can betray in EQ2 from say pally to sk, there may still be that good evil race base but what if faction is added.
Maybe every time you use an SK spell you lose faction with good and gain faction with evil. Maybe the Gods are factions and as you use Pally spells you gain faction with Mithaniel Marr and your paladin spells become more powerful based on your faction meanwhile you LOSE faction with Rallos Zek and your SK spells and abilities become less powerful eventually they are useless because they are like a level 1 spell. Then imagine that Luclin and Povar and all of the gods have their own spells and you are in this twisting nether of what you can do based on what you do.
Then also when you do quests you get faction and that effects your spells and abilities. In PVP maybe killing a player gives faction and that effects everything.
I doubt this is the case but I wonder how factions will play out with the skill tree if at all.
I also wonder about deities and how with an open skill system that will work.
The easy answer is that your class/race/deity will play little or no role in the factions. If he said factions are going to be a big part of the game, they could all just be based on your deeds in the world. Who you help / don't help, who you kill / don't kill. You're assuming* that your character's build is going to drastically affect the factions he was talking about.
Think of it more like the EQ Velious Giant/Coldain/Dragon factions. Didn't matter what class you were or the deity you followed, but rather what actions you performed in the game.
the points I & many others raise in this thread & in the original are INARGUABLE.
having no penalty core role adjustment is a detriment to player identity & constancy that is key for PvP, & also a stronger sense of community.
It's extremely arguable. You may not like it personally, but I think I don't just think this proposed system is a good thing, I know it's a good thing. The freedom to continue playing a main character but not being locked into one class or play style is a great feature to keep the game fresh and entertaining for people.
I don't think it would be good to just be able to change it on the fly, but a system that allows you to switch classes without having to completely start over is a step in the right direction.
but you don't disagree with me.
you argue for penalized core role adjustment, as well.
I disagree with your sentiment that there needs to be a level reduction or sorts to do the class change. It shouldn't be able to be done on the fly, but this feature needs to be encouraged, not discouraged. A quest to perform, having to go back to town and switch with a cooldown, or a SC cash shop purchase or something is exactly the right amount of "penalty". Dropping levels is absurd, especially the amount of which you talked about.
level reduction by half is needed so that the player has to build their reputation once more, so that they cant play FOTM hopscotch whack-a-mole
10 minute casting time & 28 day reuse is also a must for the same reasons, as a final cross-over "use ability", to finalize the core role change
no SC cash shop purchase for something so drastic, that seems out of line
a heritage quest caliber quest line, of course.
guess we agree to disagree. ;|
If it was a system like FFXI or XIV, then you would need to level the individual classes anyhow. Your character could be a level 50 warrior type, but when you switch weapons to a mage type, you're a level 1 mage. Once both are level 50, you can switch between the two as long as you have the gear for it. It's an initial investment of time that is the "penalization" for the switch.
Considering the frame of reference, I would imagine that the penalization for the system in EQ Next would be the investment of time to either level the class or the skills you need (if it's an open skill system). Asheron's Call 1 and 2 also had the ability to switch roles. In AC1 you could complete a repeatable quest on a cooldown to reallocate XP in skills to effectively change your role all together. AC2 you had to delevel current skills in your skill tree (either through xp gains or paying in game currency to unlearn skills) in order to switch skill trees.
I am sure that there is going to be some form of penalization for switching roles, but whether the penalty is incurred at the time of the switch or if you need an upfront investment of time I guess is the real question.
the points I & many others raise in this thread & in the original are INARGUABLE.
having no penalty core role adjustment is a detriment to player identity & constancy that is key for PvP, & also a stronger sense of community.
It's extremely arguable. You may not like it personally, but I think I don't just think this proposed system is a good thing, I know it's a good thing. The freedom to continue playing a main character but not being locked into one class or play style is a great feature to keep the game fresh and entertaining for people.
I don't think it would be good to just be able to change it on the fly, but a system that allows you to switch classes without having to completely start over is a step in the right direction.
but you don't disagree with me.
you argue for penalized core role adjustment, as well.
none of which wouldn't be needed if you built a proper skill based system of horizontal, rather than vertical advancement.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
the points I & many others raise in this thread & in the original are INARGUABLE.
having no penalty core role adjustment is a detriment to player identity & constancy that is key for PvP, & also a stronger sense of community.
It's extremely arguable. You may not like it personally, but I think I don't just think this proposed system is a good thing, I know it's a good thing. The freedom to continue playing a main character but not being locked into one class or play style is a great feature to keep the game fresh and entertaining for people.
I don't think it would be good to just be able to change it on the fly, but a system that allows you to switch classes without having to completely start over is a step in the right direction.
but you don't disagree with me.
you argue for penalized core role adjustment, as well.
I disagree with your sentiment that there needs to be a level reduction or sorts to do the class change. It shouldn't be able to be done on the fly, but this feature needs to be encouraged, not discouraged. A quest to perform, having to go back to town and switch with a cooldown, or a SC cash shop purchase or something is exactly the right amount of "penalty". Dropping levels is absurd, especially the amount of which you talked about.
level reduction by half is needed so that the player has to build their reputation once more, so that they cant play FOTM hopscotch whack-a-mole
10 minute casting time & 28 day reuse is also a must for the same reasons, as a final cross-over "use ability", to finalize the core role change
no SC cash shop purchase for something so drastic, that seems out of line
a heritage quest caliber quest line, of course.
guess we agree to disagree. ;|
If it was a system like FFXI or XIV, then you would need to level the individual classes anyhow. Your character could be a level 50 warrior type, but when you switch weapons to a mage type, you're a level 1 mage. Once both are level 50, you can switch between the two as long as you have the gear for it. It's an initial investment of time that is the "penalization" for the switch.
Considering the frame of reference, I would imagine that the penalization for the system in EQ Next would be the investment of time to either level the class or the skills you need (if it's an open skill system). Asheron's Call 1 and 2 also had the ability to switch roles. In AC1 you could complete a repeatable quest on a cooldown to reallocate XP in skills to effectively change your role all together. AC2 you had to delevel current skills in your skill tree (either through xp gains or paying in game currency to unlearn skills) in order to switch skill trees.
I am sure that there is going to be some form of penalization for switching roles, but whether the penalty is incurred at the time of the switch or if you need an upfront investment of time I guess is the real question.
The FFXI system is exactly what I'm hoping for. IMO every class you want to play should have to be leveled up from level 1, but you should be able to switch between your classes at your discretion, exactly like you can with alts. Though I don't mind having to return to your house/home town to switch, switching in the field isn't necessary or even desirable IMO.
I didn't read the entire thread, but if it turns out to be a skill based system, I would like to see a partial backslide of skills the longer you stay in one role. This means that a fighter that trains to be a mage would lose skill as a warrior the longer he trained as a mage, but only down to a certain threshold (this would simulate being out of practice in that role, being "rusty" if you will).
Another idea I had for an MMO in the past was to have different skills based around commerce that would translate into skills useful in different roles. For example, becoming a lumberjack and chopping a lot of wood would assist you in eventually training to be a knight/warrior. Being a message runner could translate into either an athletic fighter or if used more as a covert mission, could translate to an assassin type character, gaining high skill in sneaking around in the shadows. I'm sure there are many other ways that roles could be defined over time, so that you do not start out as a class, but rather train into it.
Yes, you could still start training directly through the different disciplines, but it would take longer than gaining proficiency by taking up a trade (yes, I would consider delivering messages a trade, for this purpose). Knights could even take up trades to retain and broaden their skill in different areas. This would encourage those trades to be taken up to help increase skills for your chosen role, which would, in turn, benefit everyone else.
If it was a system like FFXI or XIV, then you would need to level the individual classes anyhow. Your character could be a level 50 warrior type, but when you switch weapons to a mage type, you're a level 1 mage. Once both are level 50, you can switch between the two as long as you have the gear for it. It's an initial investment of time that is the "penalization" for the switch.
Considering the frame of reference, I would imagine that the penalization for the system in EQ Next would be the investment of time to either level the class or the skills you need (if it's an open skill system). Asheron's Call 1 and 2 also had the ability to switch roles. In AC1 you could complete a repeatable quest on a cooldown to reallocate XP in skills to effectively change your role all together. AC2 you had to delevel current skills in your skill tree (either through xp gains or paying in game currency to unlearn skills) in order to switch skill trees.
I am sure that there is going to be some form of penalization for switching roles, but whether the penalty is incurred at the time of the switch or if you need an upfront investment of time I guess is the real question.
switching on the fly, where you can be ON THE BATTLEFIELD within 3 days of changing your core class, is just unacceptable for retaining core community & reputation identity.
Let's use an existing model as an example. In WoW, you can't switch classes. So, I have my level 90 Monk and a level 90 Death Knight. I can tank and heal on my monk, or I can tank and dps on my death knight, and I have both classes and both roles for each class already geared. So, should I incur some type of a penalty to switch my role as the group would need? Let's say I went to the raid as a DPS DK, but one of our healers needed to leave due to an emergency and there wasn't another healer on at the time. So, I offer to log out, grab my monk who can heal, and then one of the alt dps guys can step in.
In that scenario. My "penalty" was first leveling both a dk and a monk. Then gearing for the roles I wanted to perform. After that, there is no penalty to me for switching freely between my two characters or 4 roles. Why would there be? Should there be some artificial and additional gate to prevent me from playing how I see fit, or how my group needs? How is my versatility detrimental to the community as a whole or to my personal reputation as a gamer. Moreover, how would any of this be detrimental if I was able to do all of this on a singular character, with the same time investment, as opposed to having an army of alts?
A game will retain core community as long as it's good, regardless of how role and classes work. Your reputation as a gamer will only be important to the crowd you are running with. I could be the best tank in the entire world, but no one outside of my guild would know that if I never ran with anyone else. The larger the population of the community, the less important your personal rep becomes, because you are just another faceless entity within an ocean of people.
It's amazing that this stuff gets overlooked, I have posted this video several times over the past few months on different sites, and nobody really talked about it until now. lol
It seems obvious to me that it won't be something easily done, like in Rift or something. Georgeson makes it sound like it will be a quest of some sorts. Possibly similar to how betraying works in Everquest 2.
NATURE: Cure disease, charm beast, skin like wood etc
INTUITION: beg, steal, sneak, feign death, etc
If you want to be a Paladin you go down the Melee school and the Holy school.
If you want to be an SK you go down the Melee school and the Necromancy school.
If you want to be a Druid you go down the Nature school and the Holy school.
If you want to be a Beastmaster you go down the Nature school and the Martial school.
If you want to be an Assassins master Melee, Intuition and maybe a little Martial arts.
Then you can do other stuff I mean what is a Necromancer Martial artist?
This sounds good at first, but not practical. People will find a specific min/max build and then everyone will flock to that specific build. If Necro/Rogue turns out to be the best dps then every DPS looking for a group would be a necro/rogue.
What initially looks like more freedom will in turn reduce it.
A class system would be much easier to balance on the design team.
You guys are looking at this way too much. EQN will almost certainly have a hard class system. There will just be some mechanic so you can switch your lvl 50 warrior into a lvl 50 Cleric or a 50 rogue if you wish to.
We don't know exactly how easily it will be to do it, and what the cost will be (SC micro payment, a long quest, just going back to town and meditating for a few minutes, flipping on the fly, whatever), but from the video it's almost exactly what Dave Georgeson was talking about.
If it was a system like FFXI or XIV, then you would need to level the individual classes anyhow. Your character could be a level 50 warrior type, but when you switch weapons to a mage type, you're a level 1 mage. Once both are level 50, you can switch between the two as long as you have the gear for it. It's an initial investment of time that is the "penalization" for the switch.
Considering the frame of reference, I would imagine that the penalization for the system in EQ Next would be the investment of time to either level the class or the skills you need (if it's an open skill system). Asheron's Call 1 and 2 also had the ability to switch roles. In AC1 you could complete a repeatable quest on a cooldown to reallocate XP in skills to effectively change your role all together. AC2 you had to delevel current skills in your skill tree (either through xp gains or paying in game currency to unlearn skills) in order to switch skill trees.
I am sure that there is going to be some form of penalization for switching roles, but whether the penalty is incurred at the time of the switch or if you need an upfront investment of time I guess is the real question.
switching on the fly, where you can be ON THE BATTLEFIELD within 3 days of changing your core class, is just unacceptable for retaining core community & reputation identity.
Let's use an existing model as an example. In WoW, you can't switch classes. So, I have my level 90 Monk and a level 90 Death Knight. I can tank and heal on my monk, or I can tank and dps on my death knight, and I have both classes and both roles for each class already geared. So, should I incur some type of a penalty to switch my role as the group would need? Let's say I went to the raid as a DPS DK, but one of our healers needed to leave due to an emergency and there wasn't another healer on at the time. So, I offer to log out, grab my monk who can heal, and then one of the alt dps guys can step in.
In that scenario. My "penalty" was first leveling both a dk and a monk. Then gearing for the roles I wanted to perform. After that, there is no penalty to me for switching freely between my two characters or 4 roles. Why would there be? Should there be some artificial and additional gate to prevent me from playing how I see fit, or how my group needs? How is my versatility detrimental to the community as a whole or to my personal reputation as a gamer. Moreover, how would any of this be detrimental if I was able to do all of this on a singular character, with the same time investment, as opposed to having an army of alts?
A game will retain core community as long as it's good, regardless of how role and classes work. Your reputation as a gamer will only be important to the crowd you are running with. I could be the best tank in the entire world, but no one outside of my guild would know that if I never ran with anyone else. The larger the population of the community, the less important your personal rep becomes, because you are just another faceless entity within an ocean of people.
EXACTLY. It actually encourages community and player reputation because now that I have had to invest 6 months into becoming a necromancer monk that can swap over to cleric heals, I am kinda stuck with my character and cant go start over and hide behind an alt when it turns out I am a jerk or an idiot and no one will group with me.
OR I get tons of whispers when I log in because I am well known on my server as that crazy necro monk that can heal and is nice and not and idiot.
NATURE: Cure disease, charm beast, skin like wood etc
INTUITION: beg, steal, sneak, feign death, etc
If you want to be a Paladin you go down the Melee school and the Holy school.
If you want to be an SK you go down the Melee school and the Necromancy school.
If you want to be a Druid you go down the Nature school and the Holy school.
If you want to be a Beastmaster you go down the Nature school and the Martial school.
If you want to be an Assassins master Melee, Intuition and maybe a little Martial arts.
Then you can do other stuff I mean what is a Necromancer Martial artist?
This sounds good at first, but not practical. People will find a specific min/max build and then everyone will flock to that specific build. If Necro/Rogue turns out to be the best dps then every DPS looking for a group would be a necro/rogue.
What initially looks like more freedom will in turn reduce it.
A class system would be much easier to balance on the design team.
You guys are looking at this way too much. EQN will almost certainly have a hard class system. There will just be some mechanic so you can switch your lvl 50 warrior into a lvl 50 Cleric or a 50 rogue if you wish to.
We don't know exactly how easily it will be to do it, and what the cost will be (SC micro payment, a long quest, just going back to town and meditating for a few minutes, flipping on the fly, whatever), but from the video it's almost exactly what Dave Georgeson was talking about.
Classes, but with freedom to change.
I don't believe they will let you level one class to 50 and then switch to every other class already leveled to 50. I would be shocked if they don't make you level every class individually.
I do agree with most everything else you said though, and if I misunderstood the part about switching then please forgive me.
NATURE: Cure disease, charm beast, skin like wood etc
INTUITION: beg, steal, sneak, feign death, etc
If you want to be a Paladin you go down the Melee school and the Holy school.
If you want to be an SK you go down the Melee school and the Necromancy school.
If you want to be a Druid you go down the Nature school and the Holy school.
If you want to be a Beastmaster you go down the Nature school and the Martial school.
If you want to be an Assassins master Melee, Intuition and maybe a little Martial arts.
Then you can do other stuff I mean what is a Necromancer Martial artist?
This sounds good at first, but not practical. People will find a specific min/max build and then everyone will flock to that specific build. If Necro/Rogue turns out to be the best dps then every DPS looking for a group would be a necro/rogue.
What initially looks like more freedom will in turn reduce it.
A class system would be much easier to balance on the design team.
You guys are looking at this way too much. EQN will almost certainly have a hard class system. There will just be some mechanic so you can switch your lvl 50 warrior into a lvl 50 Cleric or a 50 rogue if you wish to.
We don't know exactly how easily it will be to do it, and what the cost will be (SC micro payment, a long quest, just going back to town and meditating for a few minutes, flipping on the fly, whatever), but from the video it's almost exactly what Dave Georgeson was talking about.
Classes, but with freedom to change.
I agree. Darkfall 1 is a prime example of this, everyone was the same build. But you can work with it in PVE. That necro rogue may not do so well on a boss that is immune to necro spells. Maybe a boss does a ton of melee aoe damage and rogues have to step back and use their bows to do damage or maybe they just have to med, swap out to some elemental magic spells if they dont do bows.
Just like you need a tank and a healer maybe bosses will need a frost mage for one phase and a fire mage for another and melee for a phase and ranged for another.
I remember WoW and having to go frost for MC. It sucked to have to go back to town and spend gold to respec and stand there and put in every point. I remember needing rogues in BWL after Vael for the suppression room, or at least someone that could disarm traps.
Sure there may be a leveling spec that everyone uses or starts out with, maybe not newbies who are just going to do what is fun or cool to them. But raids and encounters can most definitely determine what specs are needed, just like roles.
Dave says he thinks that it can be balanced. Well have to see, but I totally understand your concern and I have it as well and believe me I will be the first one complaining if we are all the same spec, I have fought the good fight for hybrids for a looooong time and understnad that min/max is just one way to do things, ah but that is another thread, haha.
NATURE: Cure disease, charm beast, skin like wood etc
INTUITION: beg, steal, sneak, feign death, etc
If you want to be a Paladin you go down the Melee school and the Holy school.
If you want to be an SK you go down the Melee school and the Necromancy school.
If you want to be a Druid you go down the Nature school and the Holy school.
If you want to be a Beastmaster you go down the Nature school and the Martial school.
If you want to be an Assassins master Melee, Intuition and maybe a little Martial arts.
Then you can do other stuff I mean what is a Necromancer Martial artist?
This sounds good at first, but not practical. People will find a specific min/max build and then everyone will flock to that specific build. If Necro/Rogue turns out to be the best dps then every DPS looking for a group would be a necro/rogue.
What initially looks like more freedom will in turn reduce it.
A class system would be much easier to balance on the design team.
You guys are looking at this way too much. EQN will almost certainly have a hard class system. There will just be some mechanic so you can switch your lvl 50 warrior into a lvl 50 Cleric or a 50 rogue if you wish to.
We don't know exactly how easily it will be to do it, and what the cost will be (SC micro payment, a long quest, just going back to town and meditating for a few minutes, flipping on the fly, whatever), but from the video it's almost exactly what Dave Georgeson was talking about.
Classes, but with freedom to change.
The game will only have issues with min/max building if it was designed that way.
If the developers can manage a design that will allow an open skill based system with many viable roles and skills, then this wouldn't really be a problem. It definitely isn't impossible and will allow much more freedom and open gameplay than predestined classes.
Seeing as how this is a sandbox game though, it's very likely EQN will be skill-based. It wouldn't really make sense not to. If you look at most sandbox MMO's on the market right now, they're all skill-based. As long as SOE knows where to put limits on the system and balance it well, it would be a much more favorable design.
NATURE: Cure disease, charm beast, skin like wood etc
INTUITION: beg, steal, sneak, feign death, etc
If you want to be a Paladin you go down the Melee school and the Holy school.
If you want to be an SK you go down the Melee school and the Necromancy school.
If you want to be a Druid you go down the Nature school and the Holy school.
If you want to be a Beastmaster you go down the Nature school and the Martial school.
If you want to be an Assassins master Melee, Intuition and maybe a little Martial arts.
Then you can do other stuff I mean what is a Necromancer Martial artist?
This sounds good at first, but not practical. People will find a specific min/max build and then everyone will flock to that specific build. If Necro/Rogue turns out to be the best dps then every DPS looking for a group would be a necro/rogue.
What initially looks like more freedom will in turn reduce it.
A class system would be much easier to balance on the design team.
You guys are looking at this way too much. EQN will almost certainly have a hard class system. There will just be some mechanic so you can switch your lvl 50 warrior into a lvl 50 Cleric or a 50 rogue if you wish to.
We don't know exactly how easily it will be to do it, and what the cost will be (SC micro payment, a long quest, just going back to town and meditating for a few minutes, flipping on the fly, whatever), but from the video it's almost exactly what Dave Georgeson was talking about.
Classes, but with freedom to change.
I don't believe they will let you level one class to 50 and then switch to every other class already leveled to 50. I would be shocked if they don't make you level every class individually.
I do agree with most everything else you said though, and if I misunderstood the part about switching then please forgive me.
The class switching idea seems to reflect an existing EQ1 mechanic: shrouds. In theory, this gave a player the ability to swap his class to a more needed class to help build a group. The player would interact with an NPC and his character would be transformed into another race with abilities similar to the desired class' functionality. That's occasionally useful if the group is formed in a convenient location (PoK) then travels to a remote location to hunt.
The main criticism I've seen of the EQ1 mechanism is that the shrouds are not a complete replacement for the desired class.
I'm not a particular fan of shrouds. I hope I'm wrong.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
FFXI has been doing this for 11 years and it should be industry standard. Alt's are stupid and pointless. FFX|V expands a little on the system by combining classes into new classes. You have to level ALL of them individually but there are no limitations on how many you can level, that includes all Crafting classes (yes they are classes with skills and abilities not just tacked on crafting systems).
This has been proven to work and its balanced. Why this is not the standard for any MMO is a mystery.
Good to hear EQNext are at least thinking of going into that direction but it seems they are not really clear on how to do it.
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
FFXI has been doing this for 11 years and it should be industry standard. Alt's are stupid and pointless. FFX|V expands a little on the system by combining classes into new classes. You have to level ALL of them individually but there are no limitations on how many you can level, that includes all Crafting classes (yes they are classes with skills and abilities not just tacked on crafting systems).
This has been proven to work and its balanced. Why this is not the standard for any MMO is a mystery.
Good to hear EQNext are at least thinking of going into that direction but it seems they are not really clear on how to do it.
He's being vague on purpose... the reveal isn't until August 2.
I think that The Secret World attempted the very same thing in its own way, if EQN has found a way to have the capacity to be many different things, shopkeeper, explorer, trader, hunter, etc etc then a more "grown-up" system to the ones found in Free Realms, FFXI, TSW etc could be a real selling point, I think what RIFT addresses this issue also in their own way & was largely successful but what I want EQN to offer is far more "OUT OF COMBAT" roles, lifestyles, hobbies.
Because ultimately this is a role playing game and you should be able to play the role that you want to play.
You can just as easily say this:
Because ultimately this is a role playing game and you should play the role you chose to play.
I will have a much harder time associating a person with their role if they are allowed to switch it every minute like in Rift.
Rift was cool....for a minute. yeah the changing thing gets old.
I agree, while I liked that system ok for rift, I don't think it would be good for EQNext. Having an identity that takes some work to achieve is a good thing
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It's extremely arguable. You may not like it personally, but I think I don't just think this proposed system is a good thing, I know it's a good thing. The freedom to continue playing a main character but not being locked into one class or play style is a great feature to keep the game fresh and entertaining for people.
I don't think it would be good to just be able to change it on the fly, but a system that allows you to switch classes without having to completely start over is a step in the right direction.
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for class system, see ISTARIA/HORIZONS. They did multi-classing flawlessly.
I hope I can have just one character, but I also hope that lets say level 100 is the max, that I have to level EVERY class seperately. Some skills should overlap.
Although what I think we see, is some kind of Rift-ish system
on a similar note, just cause you can play every class on 1 char persay, doesnt mean you will, especially if it gets exponentially harder. Some like to play females as their healers, I like big lizards or orcs/halfgiants as my tank, and gnome/ratonka as my rogues. I could still see that aspect being plausable for alts
Already mentioned this but here is the TLDR version, lol:
Smed said factions will be huge factor in EQN.
How will deities play into multiple skills or an open skill system?
What if it is tied to skills like now how you can betray in EQ2 from say pally to sk, there may still be that good evil race base but what if faction is added.
Maybe every time you use an SK spell you lose faction with good and gain faction with evil. Maybe the Gods are factions and as you use Pally spells you gain faction with Mithaniel Marr and your paladin spells become more powerful based on your faction meanwhile you LOSE faction with Rallos Zek and your SK spells and abilities become less powerful eventually they are useless because they are like a level 1 spell. Then imagine that Luclin and Povar and all of the gods have their own spells and you are in this twisting nether of what you can do based on what you do.
Then also when you do quests you get faction and that effects your spells and abilities. In PVP maybe killing a player gives faction and that effects everything.
I doubt this is the case but I wonder how factions will play out with the skill tree if at all.
I also wonder about deities and how with an open skill system that will work.
I disagree with your sentiment that there needs to be a level reduction or sorts to do the class change. It shouldn't be able to be done on the fly, but this feature needs to be encouraged, not discouraged. A quest to perform, having to go back to town and switch with a cooldown, or a SC cash shop purchase or something is exactly the right amount of "penalty". Dropping levels is absurd, especially the amount of which you talked about.
Also, we all know EQ is going to have classes, not a skill tree. I don't mind either, but from a design standpoint, classes are much easier to balance. They offer a little less freedom (which can be helped by Class specialization trees) but their skills and abilities are grouped together and therefor easier to balance.
Also, even though classes are more restrictive than a skill-tree style system, EQN is going to have some sort of class changing system, so that brings in more freedom.
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You build a reputation as a good player or bad player in general. You don't need to lower your level to build a reputation. In fact, most of the core players will only be concerned with cap level performance anyway. How good you can tank in some lvl 47 dungeon is going to be of little concern for hardcore players.
28 day reuse is extremely restrictive and goes against the freedom Dave was talking about.
It's a F2P game, expect to be paying money for a lot of things.
Sure a strong quest would be appropriate.
You're just wrong, frankly lol.
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The easy answer is that your class/race/deity will play little or no role in the factions. If he said factions are going to be a big part of the game, they could all just be based on your deeds in the world. Who you help / don't help, who you kill / don't kill. You're assuming* that your character's build is going to drastically affect the factions he was talking about.
Think of it more like the EQ Velious Giant/Coldain/Dragon factions. Didn't matter what class you were or the deity you followed, but rather what actions you performed in the game.
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If it was a system like FFXI or XIV, then you would need to level the individual classes anyhow. Your character could be a level 50 warrior type, but when you switch weapons to a mage type, you're a level 1 mage. Once both are level 50, you can switch between the two as long as you have the gear for it. It's an initial investment of time that is the "penalization" for the switch.
Considering the frame of reference, I would imagine that the penalization for the system in EQ Next would be the investment of time to either level the class or the skills you need (if it's an open skill system). Asheron's Call 1 and 2 also had the ability to switch roles. In AC1 you could complete a repeatable quest on a cooldown to reallocate XP in skills to effectively change your role all together. AC2 you had to delevel current skills in your skill tree (either through xp gains or paying in game currency to unlearn skills) in order to switch skill trees.
I am sure that there is going to be some form of penalization for switching roles, but whether the penalty is incurred at the time of the switch or if you need an upfront investment of time I guess is the real question.
none of which wouldn't be needed if you built a proper skill based system of horizontal, rather than vertical advancement.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
The FFXI system is exactly what I'm hoping for. IMO every class you want to play should have to be leveled up from level 1, but you should be able to switch between your classes at your discretion, exactly like you can with alts. Though I don't mind having to return to your house/home town to switch, switching in the field isn't necessary or even desirable IMO.
I didn't read the entire thread, but if it turns out to be a skill based system, I would like to see a partial backslide of skills the longer you stay in one role. This means that a fighter that trains to be a mage would lose skill as a warrior the longer he trained as a mage, but only down to a certain threshold (this would simulate being out of practice in that role, being "rusty" if you will).
Another idea I had for an MMO in the past was to have different skills based around commerce that would translate into skills useful in different roles. For example, becoming a lumberjack and chopping a lot of wood would assist you in eventually training to be a knight/warrior. Being a message runner could translate into either an athletic fighter or if used more as a covert mission, could translate to an assassin type character, gaining high skill in sneaking around in the shadows. I'm sure there are many other ways that roles could be defined over time, so that you do not start out as a class, but rather train into it.
Yes, you could still start training directly through the different disciplines, but it would take longer than gaining proficiency by taking up a trade (yes, I would consider delivering messages a trade, for this purpose). Knights could even take up trades to retain and broaden their skill in different areas. This would encourage those trades to be taken up to help increase skills for your chosen role, which would, in turn, benefit everyone else.
Just a couple ideas that I've had.
I'd be interesting in hearing you elaborate on this.
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Dont think of it as classes, think of it as schools of magic and disciplines:
MELEE SCHOOL: swords maces staves fist weapons etc, taunt, kick, shield bash, block, dodge, parry
ELEMENTAL MAGIC: heat, cold, magic
NECROMANCY: disease, noxxious, shadow
MARTIAL: Spinning kick, Fists of fury etc.
HOLY: Complete Heal etc
NATURE: Cure disease, charm beast, skin like wood etc
INTUITION: beg, steal, sneak, feign death, etc
If you want to be a Paladin you go down the Melee school and the Holy school.
If you want to be an SK you go down the Melee school and the Necromancy school.
If you want to be a Druid you go down the Nature school and the Holy school.
If you want to be a Beastmaster you go down the Nature school and the Martial school.
If you want to be an Assassins master Melee, Intuition and maybe a little Martial arts.
Then you can do other stuff I mean what is a Necromancer Martial artist?
Let's use an existing model as an example. In WoW, you can't switch classes. So, I have my level 90 Monk and a level 90 Death Knight. I can tank and heal on my monk, or I can tank and dps on my death knight, and I have both classes and both roles for each class already geared. So, should I incur some type of a penalty to switch my role as the group would need? Let's say I went to the raid as a DPS DK, but one of our healers needed to leave due to an emergency and there wasn't another healer on at the time. So, I offer to log out, grab my monk who can heal, and then one of the alt dps guys can step in.
In that scenario. My "penalty" was first leveling both a dk and a monk. Then gearing for the roles I wanted to perform. After that, there is no penalty to me for switching freely between my two characters or 4 roles. Why would there be? Should there be some artificial and additional gate to prevent me from playing how I see fit, or how my group needs? How is my versatility detrimental to the community as a whole or to my personal reputation as a gamer. Moreover, how would any of this be detrimental if I was able to do all of this on a singular character, with the same time investment, as opposed to having an army of alts?
A game will retain core community as long as it's good, regardless of how role and classes work. Your reputation as a gamer will only be important to the crowd you are running with. I could be the best tank in the entire world, but no one outside of my guild would know that if I never ran with anyone else. The larger the population of the community, the less important your personal rep becomes, because you are just another faceless entity within an ocean of people.
It's amazing that this stuff gets overlooked, I have posted this video several times over the past few months on different sites, and nobody really talked about it until now. lol
It seems obvious to me that it won't be something easily done, like in Rift or something. Georgeson makes it sound like it will be a quest of some sorts. Possibly similar to how betraying works in Everquest 2.
This sounds good at first, but not practical. People will find a specific min/max build and then everyone will flock to that specific build. If Necro/Rogue turns out to be the best dps then every DPS looking for a group would be a necro/rogue.
What initially looks like more freedom will in turn reduce it.
A class system would be much easier to balance on the design team.
You guys are looking at this way too much. EQN will almost certainly have a hard class system. There will just be some mechanic so you can switch your lvl 50 warrior into a lvl 50 Cleric or a 50 rogue if you wish to.
We don't know exactly how easily it will be to do it, and what the cost will be (SC micro payment, a long quest, just going back to town and meditating for a few minutes, flipping on the fly, whatever), but from the video it's almost exactly what Dave Georgeson was talking about.
Classes, but with freedom to change.
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EXACTLY. It actually encourages community and player reputation because now that I have had to invest 6 months into becoming a necromancer monk that can swap over to cleric heals, I am kinda stuck with my character and cant go start over and hide behind an alt when it turns out I am a jerk or an idiot and no one will group with me.
OR I get tons of whispers when I log in because I am well known on my server as that crazy necro monk that can heal and is nice and not and idiot.
I don't believe they will let you level one class to 50 and then switch to every other class already leveled to 50. I would be shocked if they don't make you level every class individually.
I do agree with most everything else you said though, and if I misunderstood the part about switching then please forgive me.
I agree. Darkfall 1 is a prime example of this, everyone was the same build. But you can work with it in PVE. That necro rogue may not do so well on a boss that is immune to necro spells. Maybe a boss does a ton of melee aoe damage and rogues have to step back and use their bows to do damage or maybe they just have to med, swap out to some elemental magic spells if they dont do bows.
Just like you need a tank and a healer maybe bosses will need a frost mage for one phase and a fire mage for another and melee for a phase and ranged for another.
I remember WoW and having to go frost for MC. It sucked to have to go back to town and spend gold to respec and stand there and put in every point. I remember needing rogues in BWL after Vael for the suppression room, or at least someone that could disarm traps.
Sure there may be a leveling spec that everyone uses or starts out with, maybe not newbies who are just going to do what is fun or cool to them. But raids and encounters can most definitely determine what specs are needed, just like roles.
Dave says he thinks that it can be balanced. Well have to see, but I totally understand your concern and I have it as well and believe me I will be the first one complaining if we are all the same spec, I have fought the good fight for hybrids for a looooong time and understnad that min/max is just one way to do things, ah but that is another thread, haha.
The game will only have issues with min/max building if it was designed that way.
If the developers can manage a design that will allow an open skill based system with many viable roles and skills, then this wouldn't really be a problem. It definitely isn't impossible and will allow much more freedom and open gameplay than predestined classes.
Seeing as how this is a sandbox game though, it's very likely EQN will be skill-based. It wouldn't really make sense not to. If you look at most sandbox MMO's on the market right now, they're all skill-based. As long as SOE knows where to put limits on the system and balance it well, it would be a much more favorable design.
The class switching idea seems to reflect an existing EQ1 mechanic: shrouds. In theory, this gave a player the ability to swap his class to a more needed class to help build a group. The player would interact with an NPC and his character would be transformed into another race with abilities similar to the desired class' functionality. That's occasionally useful if the group is formed in a convenient location (PoK) then travels to a remote location to hunt.
The main criticism I've seen of the EQ1 mechanism is that the shrouds are not a complete replacement for the desired class.
I'm not a particular fan of shrouds. I hope I'm wrong.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
FFXI has been doing this for 11 years and it should be industry standard. Alt's are stupid and pointless. FFX|V expands a little on the system by combining classes into new classes. You have to level ALL of them individually but there are no limitations on how many you can level, that includes all Crafting classes (yes they are classes with skills and abilities not just tacked on crafting systems).
This has been proven to work and its balanced. Why this is not the standard for any MMO is a mystery.
Good to hear EQNext are at least thinking of going into that direction but it seems they are not really clear on how to do it.
He's being vague on purpose... the reveal isn't until August 2.
Rift was cool....for a minute. yeah the changing thing gets old.
I agree, while I liked that system ok for rift, I don't think it would be good for EQNext. Having an identity that takes some work to achieve is a good thing
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