I also think that each class can play each role. Why not? Because D&D said so? I like D&D as much as the next nerd but limiting an RPG seems a bit silly. If I'm a Mage why can't I tank using energy fields to lessen blows and rock golems to distract the mob. If I'm a rogue why can't I life siphon to heal my group mates. I get why there is preconceived notions about certain class roles I just don't think they apply 40 years later.
Why play a particular class if each class can play each role? How a single class can cover each role, assuming that each role need specific gears and attributes?
I think that this system will generate clones, all char. will do the same things, not exactly what i call freedom
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it" -Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
NATURE: Cure disease, charm beast, skin like wood etc
INTUITION: beg, steal, sneak, feign death, etc
If you want to be a Paladin you go down the Melee school and the Holy school.
If you want to be an SK you go down the Melee school and the Necromancy school.
If you want to be a Druid you go down the Nature school and the Holy school.
If you want to be a Beastmaster you go down the Nature school and the Martial school.
If you want to be an Assassins master Melee, Intuition and maybe a little Martial arts.
Then you can do other stuff I mean what is a Necromancer Martial artist?
This sounds good at first, but not practical. People will find a specific min/max build and then everyone will flock to that specific build. If Necro/Rogue turns out to be the best dps then every DPS looking for a group would be a necro/rogue.
What initially looks like more freedom will in turn reduce it.
A class system would be much easier to balance on the design team.
You guys are looking at this way too much. EQN will almost certainly have a hard class system. There will just be some mechanic so you can switch your lvl 50 warrior into a lvl 50 Cleric or a 50 rogue if you wish to.
We don't know exactly how easily it will be to do it, and what the cost will be (SC micro payment, a long quest, just going back to town and meditating for a few minutes, flipping on the fly, whatever), but from the video it's almost exactly what Dave Georgeson was talking about.
Classes, but with freedom to change.
The game will only have issues with min/max building if it was designed that way.
If the developers can manage a design that will allow an open skill based system with many viable roles and skills, then this wouldn't really be a problem. It definitely isn't impossible and will allow much more freedom and open gameplay than predestined classes.
Seeing as how this is a sandbox game though, it's very likely EQN will be skill-based. It wouldn't really make sense not to. If you look at most sandbox MMO's on the market right now, they're all skill-based. As long as SOE knows where to put limits on the system and balance it well, it would be a much more favorable design.
You have to look at it from a design standpoint mathematically. If there are 12 classes, with no "specs", then you only have 12 possible scenarios to balance. Even less if you only balance in arch-type (DPS / Tank / Healer).
Now if there are 12 classes, each with 3 spec trees they can choose from, you then have 36 scenarios to balance.
If you have a free flowing skill tree, and players can pick and choose any skills they want, you start getting into factorials for determining possible scenarios to balance. Go ahead and use a program or graphing calculator to calculate 50! (50 factorial 50 * 49 * 48 * 47......).
I assure you it's not a small number.
There are ways to curb this, through limitations on skill selection choices and such, but from the video it sounds like they want a lot of freedom. To create a lot of freedom, but keep it well within a proper design scope, they will probably have a hard class system, but will incorporate some sort of freedom in changing how your character plays through some sort of mechanic.
Also, Sandbox does not automatically = skill based system. Just because that's been common for the genre, does not make it a "sandbox feature".
I don't believe they will let you level one class to 50 and then switch to every other class already leveled to 50. I would be shocked if they don't make you level every class individually.
I do agree with most everything else you said though, and if I misunderstood the part about switching then please forgive me.
I think you did misunderstand me, but only a little bit.
They are almost certainly going to let characters switch between classes as they want. How they do this is completely up in the air at this moment.
They might allow a lvl 50 cleric to simply switch into a 50 warrior.
They might just have it so that every character is basically every class, but you have to level each class individually. A system that basically replaces AAs. Instead of AAs, you'd have your "main class", and then you can level up another class on the same character. So you might have a lvl 50 warrior, but he's also a lvl 34 druid, and a 48 rogue. So that you can keep your main character/looks/name/roleplay stuff and just switch to a different class when you see fit.
They might just have a skill tree system and you can "respec" at any time.
Who knows.
My only point is that EQN will certainly have freedom when it comes to changing how your main character plays. How they do it, is going to be a mystery until Aug 2nd.
Originally posted by eolse I really don't want to see monks throwing fireballs , i really want to see Everquest next with the same in depth classes they have done in eq1.
That's not what he was getting at in the video.
Think of it more like, you have a main character, and his class can change.
It didn't sound like they were designing some hybrid pick your class system, but more like you have a 50 Monk, and instead of creating an alt, you can just switch* to another class while using your main character's body.
Hope that helps.
I agree with you as well. Monks throwing ice spears and clerics backstabbing people would be extremely lame. Don't worry, that's not going to be happening lol.
I know the sunk cost fallacy says that you must maintain and play the same character for the rest of your life.
But it really is not true. But it's an essentially harmless bullet point that might "sell" one or two customers, I guess.
"New for SOE Live Customers: inter-game character transfers! More details next month!"
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by eolse I really don't want to see monks throwing fireballs , i really want to see Everquest next with the same in depth classes they have done in eq1.
That's not what he was getting at in the video.
Think of it more like, you have a main character, and his class can change.
It didn't sound like they were designing some hybrid pick your class system, but more like you have a 50 Monk, and instead of creating an alt, you can just switch* to another class while using your main character's body.
Hope that helps.
I agree with you as well. Monks throwing ice spears and clerics backstabbing people would be extremely lame. Don't worry, that's not going to be happening lol.
Well, this system could work, but they need to put some limitations as in EQ1...so for example with my Ogre i could play a warrior and then a shaman but not a rogue, a wizard or a paladin. Will see.
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it" -Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
I know the sunk cost fallacy says that you must maintain and play the same character for the rest of your life.
But it really is not true. But it's an essentially harmless bullet point that might "sell" one or two customers, I guess.
"New for SOE Live Customers: inter-game character transfers! More details next month!"
I don't think anyone is saying that you have* to play 1 character your whole life, but some people do.
I personally dislike alts. My best friend is an alt fiend. I think the freedom to play either way could only be a good thing. Freedom to make alts, or freedom to change up your main character to offer fresh new experiences even years after you've played it.
Originally posted by eolse I really don't want to see monks throwing fireballs , i really want to see Everquest next with the same in depth classes they have done in eq1.
That's not what he was getting at in the video.
Think of it more like, you have a main character, and his class can change.
It didn't sound like they were designing some hybrid pick your class system, but more like you have a 50 Monk, and instead of creating an alt, you can just switch* to another class while using your main character's body.
Hope that helps.
I agree with you as well. Monks throwing ice spears and clerics backstabbing people would be extremely lame. Don't worry, that's not going to be happening lol.
So if i m not misunderstend...i can start with an Ogre Warrior and then i can play for example a wizard of the same lvl with my Ogre char.? I hope to have misunderstand cause in this way they will kill rp. How for example an Ogre with low intelligence can become a spellcaster?
We don't know what the "cost" of changing your class will be(If you have to build up each class on a character, or if you can just switch 50 to 50), or if there will be restrictions (like no ogre casters).
He just said that he wants players to have the freedom to change the way they play on their characters. That locking a character into one class is not something that has* to happen and something they look to address in EQN.
Anything past that is just speculation man. To me it sounds like it could be many things. Simply performing a skill or process in town and directly turning your lvl 50 ogre warrior into a 50 ogre cleric.
Having skills that you can just respec (rebuilding you class as you see fit, when you want to).
Having a main character and being able to level up each class individually on that one character, etc etc.
They might not have class/race restrictions in the game. You might be able to make a Dwarf Wizard, or a Gnome Monk. What would be the difference of switching from an ogre warrior to an ogre wizard, and simply making an ogre wizard from the start?
If there are class/race combo restrictions, you can rest assured that the class-changing mechanic won't bypass that.
It's amazing that this stuff gets overlooked, I have posted this video several times over the past few months on different sites, and nobody really talked about it until now. lol
It seems obvious to me that it won't be something easily done, like in Rift or something. Georgeson makes it sound like it will be a quest of some sorts. Possibly similar to how betraying works in Everquest 2.
No dedicated EQN forums to really discuss it.
I am not sure where you get that he says it would be difficult. He made it sound like you could have multiple classes and that this would give players more choice and would need to be balanced.
Originally posted by eolse I really don't want to see monks throwing fireballs , i really want to see Everquest next with the same in depth classes they have done in eq1.
If under a scenario where EQN had some type of multiclass system like that, such a character wouldn't be a Monk. They would be a Monk/Wizard. I don't see an issue with such a system.
I like the thought of multiclass system. I've experienced open class system before other than UO, runescape etc I mean in themeparks like DOMO etc where you can be a plate wearer who can aoe or a dancing martial artist a heal tank, doge ccer with warior shouts etc at the same time. You can be a theif who plays the guitar etc. You get the idea.
Now I think more on it if you have say 3 or 4 different classes you could chose from and mix them up how you like that would save the everyone being the same problem if there were enough choices. If you were a dedicated healer you could chose to have DoT's or DH or wards etc for one example and mix it up with dps, tanking etc. Would be interesting.
It's amazing that this stuff gets overlooked, I have posted this video several times over the past few months on different sites, and nobody really talked about it until now. lol
It seems obvious to me that it won't be something easily done, like in Rift or something. Georgeson makes it sound like it will be a quest of some sorts. Possibly similar to how betraying works in Everquest 2.
No dedicated EQN forums to really discuss it.
I am not sure where you get that he says it would be difficult. He made it sound like you could have multiple classes and that this would give players more choice and would need to be balanced.
Georgeson states that he believes that there are interesting and cool ways to make this happen.... I don't think easily switching to a different role is at all interesting or cool.
It's amazing that this stuff gets overlooked, I have posted this video several times over the past few months on different sites, and nobody really talked about it until now. lol
It seems obvious to me that it won't be something easily done, like in Rift or something. Georgeson makes it sound like it will be a quest of some sorts. Possibly similar to how betraying works in Everquest 2.
No dedicated EQN forums to really discuss it.
I am not sure where you get that he says it would be difficult. He made it sound like you could have multiple classes and that this would give players more choice and would need to be balanced.
Georgeson states that he believes that there are interesting and cool ways to make this happen.... I don't think easily switching to a different role is at all interesting or cool.
I disagree. I think being able to change the way your main character plays is a great step in the right direction. When it comes right down to it, a game should be fun, not a second job.
We also do not know what limitations there will be OUTSIDE of the class/skill system. The two biggest that come to mind is exactly how many buttons do you get and gear.
If we only get to ever use 8 abilities like EQs 8 spell gems and we get to choose from all skills in game, that is pretty limiting.
Gear is limiting as well. Over on the reddit we were talking about a warrior tank that decides to go rogue.
Of course a rogue would do terrible in plate strength gear. Sure we do not know there will be no dexterity plate gear, let's hope not. Sure the rogue cannot sneak in plate gear, let's hope not at least.
So now we have a situation where the warrior had to level up the rogue and has to get dexterity gear and probably level up daggers or 1H swords or fists weapons, whatever he is going to use. Seems to me he might as well have started a new toon in the old school themepark one class system. The difference now is he simply has to change gear and spells around and there you go.
Looking at the big picture of Smedley deriding content churn and needing something to do in between expansions, being able to level all classes or all abilities is a HUGE time sink, but one that I would LOVE to endeavour in.
We also do not know if there will even BE levels, maybe it is like EVE no levels no classes EVE has 22 years worth of skills to train. No one, not one person has all of the skills in EVE.
What if, I know another what if, but what if it takes upwards of 3 - 4 months to simply level 1 class? Then we are talking about things that may or may not happen a year into the life of the game here. Those first raids are going to need tanks and healers and DPS and we wont be moving on to multiclass hybrids or the problems we can think of for a while.
On a side note I cannot believe how civil everyone is being and what good points have been addressed on both sides of this discussion, keep it up guys
It's amazing that this stuff gets overlooked, I have posted this video several times over the past few months on different sites, and nobody really talked about it until now. lol
It seems obvious to me that it won't be something easily done, like in Rift or something. Georgeson makes it sound like it will be a quest of some sorts. Possibly similar to how betraying works in Everquest 2.
No dedicated EQN forums to really discuss it.
I am not sure where you get that he says it would be difficult. He made it sound like you could have multiple classes and that this would give players more choice and would need to be balanced.
Georgeson states that he believes that there are interesting and cool ways to make this happen.... I don't think easily switching to a different role is at all interesting or cool.
I disagree. I think being able to change the way your main character plays is a great step in the right direction. When it comes right down to it, a game should be fun, not a second job.
I don't have a problem with changing classes, I just have a problem with it being easy.
The second job argument is lame as shit. Having everything handed to you makes the game boring (like most MMOs after WoW launched, my opinion of course).
It's amazing that this stuff gets overlooked, I have posted this video several times over the past few months on different sites, and nobody really talked about it until now. lol
It seems obvious to me that it won't be something easily done, like in Rift or something. Georgeson makes it sound like it will be a quest of some sorts. Possibly similar to how betraying works in Everquest 2.
No dedicated EQN forums to really discuss it.
I am not sure where you get that he says it would be difficult. He made it sound like you could have multiple classes and that this would give players more choice and would need to be balanced.
Georgeson states that he believes that there are interesting and cool ways to make this happen.... I don't think easily switching to a different role is at all interesting or cool.
I disagree. I think being able to change the way your main character plays is a great step in the right direction. When it comes right down to it, a game should be fun, not a second job.
I don't have a problem with changing classes, I just have a problem with it being easy.
The second job argument is lame as shit. Having everything handed to you makes the game boring (like most MMOs after WoW launched, my opinion of course).
How was the argument "lame"? It's a fact. A game should be fun. Not feel like a chore.
Most games after EQ* have been easy mode. A trend that started with WoW and caught on.
You might feel that switching classes is "handing it" over to you, but others might not. No one handed you the effort put in from lvl 1 to cap. Simply being able to switch classes has nothing to do with hand outs. It's just more freedom on how you play.
Not to mention that you'll probably need to earn different gear for different class play. So not only did you have to earn all your levels, you also had to earn new sets of gear.
That's not even including any effort they require for the class switch. (like a quest line to access it, or whatever).
In any case, I can't wait for Aug 2nd so we can stop stabbing in the dark on what the game is going to be like.
All I know is that Dave Georgeson says a lot of things I agree with, so I'm sure I'm not going to be disappointed with the product they're making.
We also do not know what limitations there will be OUTSIDE of the class/skill system. The two biggest that come to mind is exactly how many buttons do you get and gear.
If we only get to ever use 8 abilities like EQs 8 spell gems and we get to choose from all skills in game, that is pretty limiting.
Gear is limiting as well. Over on the reddit we were talking about a warrior tank that decides to go rogue.
Of course a rogue would do terrible in plate strength gear. Sure we do not know there will be no dexterity plate gear, let's hope not. Sure the rogue cannot sneak in plate gear, let's hope not at least.
Ya that's not what it sounds like when I listen to Dave's comment. Rest assured you're not going to be seeing plate wearing thief dps characters running around lol.
But I agree. Not only would you need to level up your character initially, you're also going to have to earn / buy all the gear to go with the separate profession(s).
It sounds to me like it could be a way to boost the crafted item economy, an alternative to an AA system (level alt classes instead of AAs), or even a mix of both those considerations.
I think it'd be a lot of fun to have 1 main character, and get to work on quests to unlock alternate class switches, or level up alternate classes like an AA system replacement. Hell, I'd even welcome the ability to just swap my character's class without having to level it up or anything. There's been a lot of games where I played, maxed out and geared up a character, and I really really wanted to try another class, but didn't feel like replaying all the low level content just to do it on an alt. Being able to swap out to another class would, in my opinion, add a lot more replay value to the game.
It would give people like me, who enjoy playing 1 character, a lot to do, even after capping out initially.
It's amazing that this stuff gets overlooked, I have posted this video several times over the past few months on different sites, and nobody really talked about it until now. lol
It seems obvious to me that it won't be something easily done, like in Rift or something. Georgeson makes it sound like it will be a quest of some sorts. Possibly similar to how betraying works in Everquest 2.
No dedicated EQN forums to really discuss it.
I am not sure where you get that he says it would be difficult. He made it sound like you could have multiple classes and that this would give players more choice and would need to be balanced.
Georgeson states that he believes that there are interesting and cool ways to make this happen.... I don't think easily switching to a different role is at all interesting or cool.
I disagree. I think being able to change the way your main character plays is a great step in the right direction. When it comes right down to it, a game should be fun, not a second job.
I don't have a problem with changing classes, I just have a problem with it being easy.
The second job argument is lame as shit. Having everything handed to you makes the game boring (like most MMOs after WoW launched, my opinion of course).
How was the argument "lame"? It's a fact. A game should be fun. Not feel like a chore.
Most games after EQ* have been easy mode. A trend that started with WoW and caught on.
You might feel that switching classes is "handing it" over to you, but others might not. No one handed you the effort put in from lvl 1 to cap. Simply being able to switch classes has nothing to do with hand outs. It's just more freedom on how you play.
Not to mention that you'll probably need to earn different gear for different class play. So not only did you have to earn all your levels, you also had to earn new sets of gear.
That's not even including any effort they require for the class switch. (like a quest line to access it, or whatever).
In any case, I can't wait for Aug 2nd so we can stop stabbing in the dark on what the game is going to be like.
All I know is that Dave Georgeson says a lot of things I agree with, so I'm sure I'm not going to be disappointed with the product they're making.
I don't think you're understanding what I'm typing. lol Again, I do think that being able to switch classes SHOULD be in the game. Being able to change classes should be the result of a quest of some sorts, and not just a click of a button.
How was the argument "lame"? It's a fact. A game should be fun. Not feel like a chore.
Most games after EQ* have been easy mode. A trend that started with WoW and caught on.
You might feel that switching classes is "handing it" over to you, but others might not. No one handed you the effort put in from lvl 1 to cap. Simply being able to switch classes has nothing to do with hand outs. It's just more freedom on how you play.
Not to mention that you'll probably need to earn different gear for different class play. So not only did you have to earn all your levels, you also had to earn new sets of gear.
That's not even including any effort they require for the class switch. (like a quest line to access it, or whatever).
In any case, I can't wait for Aug 2nd so we can stop stabbing in the dark on what the game is going to be like.
All I know is that Dave Georgeson says a lot of things I agree with, so I'm sure I'm not going to be disappointed with the product they're making.
I don't think you're understanding what I'm typing. lol Again, I do think that being able to switch classes SHOULD be in the game. Being able to change classes should be the result of a quest of some sorts, and not just a click of a button.
I'm just saying that any way they decide to put this feature in the game is fine by me. I can read what you posted just fine.
If they make it easy, that's cool.
If they make it hard, that's fine too.
I'm just glad that it's on their to-do list.
Also, you gotta remember that us Hardcores might want something to appeal to us, but in the end, the casual fanbase pays the bills. I think it'd make more sense to have the class switching mechanic have limitation (like you can't do it in the middle of a dungeon or a raid), but it's not an extremely involved process.
How was the argument "lame"? It's a fact. A game should be fun. Not feel like a chore.
Most games after EQ* have been easy mode. A trend that started with WoW and caught on.
You might feel that switching classes is "handing it" over to you, but others might not. No one handed you the effort put in from lvl 1 to cap. Simply being able to switch classes has nothing to do with hand outs. It's just more freedom on how you play.
Not to mention that you'll probably need to earn different gear for different class play. So not only did you have to earn all your levels, you also had to earn new sets of gear.
That's not even including any effort they require for the class switch. (like a quest line to access it, or whatever).
In any case, I can't wait for Aug 2nd so we can stop stabbing in the dark on what the game is going to be like.
All I know is that Dave Georgeson says a lot of things I agree with, so I'm sure I'm not going to be disappointed with the product they're making.
I don't think you're understanding what I'm typing. lol Again, I do think that being able to switch classes SHOULD be in the game. Being able to change classes should be the result of a quest of some sorts, and not just a click of a button.
I'm just saying that any way they decide to put this feature in the game is fine by me. I can read what you posted just fine.
If they make it easy, that's cool.
If they make it hard, that's fine too.
I'm just glad that it's on their to-do list.
Then why are you arguing with my point about making it a quest, and then turning around and talking about making a quest? ... sigh
Either way, if changing classes is a questline of sorts, I think giving out gear through the questline would be an option so you're not naked when you finish switching classes.
Then why are you arguing with my point about making it a quest, and then turning around and talking about making a quest? ... sigh
Because us "Hardcores" might want something to appeal to us, but in the end, the casual fanbase pays the bills. I think it'd make more sense to have the class switching mechanic have limitation (like you can't do it in the middle of a dungeon or a raid), but not make it an extremely involved process.
I'm not arguing against what you suggested, I'm simply stating that even if it is easy to do, that it won't ruin the game.
Comments
Why play a particular class if each class can play each role? How a single class can cover each role, assuming that each role need specific gears and attributes?
I think that this system will generate clones, all char. will do the same things, not exactly what i call freedom
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
Has anyone made the joke about how this obviously means EQN will have FFA PvP yet?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You have to look at it from a design standpoint mathematically. If there are 12 classes, with no "specs", then you only have 12 possible scenarios to balance. Even less if you only balance in arch-type (DPS / Tank / Healer).
Now if there are 12 classes, each with 3 spec trees they can choose from, you then have 36 scenarios to balance.
If you have a free flowing skill tree, and players can pick and choose any skills they want, you start getting into factorials for determining possible scenarios to balance. Go ahead and use a program or graphing calculator to calculate 50! (50 factorial 50 * 49 * 48 * 47......).
I assure you it's not a small number.
There are ways to curb this, through limitations on skill selection choices and such, but from the video it sounds like they want a lot of freedom. To create a lot of freedom, but keep it well within a proper design scope, they will probably have a hard class system, but will incorporate some sort of freedom in changing how your character plays through some sort of mechanic.
Also, Sandbox does not automatically = skill based system. Just because that's been common for the genre, does not make it a "sandbox feature".
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I think you did misunderstand me, but only a little bit.
They are almost certainly going to let characters switch between classes as they want. How they do this is completely up in the air at this moment.
They might allow a lvl 50 cleric to simply switch into a 50 warrior.
They might just have it so that every character is basically every class, but you have to level each class individually. A system that basically replaces AAs. Instead of AAs, you'd have your "main class", and then you can level up another class on the same character. So you might have a lvl 50 warrior, but he's also a lvl 34 druid, and a 48 rogue. So that you can keep your main character/looks/name/roleplay stuff and just switch to a different class when you see fit.
They might just have a skill tree system and you can "respec" at any time.
Who knows.
My only point is that EQN will certainly have freedom when it comes to changing how your main character plays. How they do it, is going to be a mystery until Aug 2nd.
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That's not what he was getting at in the video.
Think of it more like, you have a main character, and his class can change.
It didn't sound like they were designing some hybrid pick your class system, but more like you have a 50 Monk, and instead of creating an alt, you can just switch* to another class while using your main character's body.
Hope that helps.
I agree with you as well. Monks throwing ice spears and clerics backstabbing people would be extremely lame. Don't worry, that's not going to be happening lol.
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I know the sunk cost fallacy says that you must maintain and play the same character for the rest of your life.
But it really is not true. But it's an essentially harmless bullet point that might "sell" one or two customers, I guess.
"New for SOE Live Customers: inter-game character transfers! More details next month!"
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Well, this system could work, but they need to put some limitations as in EQ1...so for example with my Ogre i could play a warrior and then a shaman but not a rogue, a wizard or a paladin. Will see.
"Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
-Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.
I don't think anyone is saying that you have* to play 1 character your whole life, but some people do.
I personally dislike alts. My best friend is an alt fiend. I think the freedom to play either way could only be a good thing. Freedom to make alts, or freedom to change up your main character to offer fresh new experiences even years after you've played it.
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We don't know what the "cost" of changing your class will be(If you have to build up each class on a character, or if you can just switch 50 to 50), or if there will be restrictions (like no ogre casters).
He just said that he wants players to have the freedom to change the way they play on their characters. That locking a character into one class is not something that has* to happen and something they look to address in EQN.
Anything past that is just speculation man. To me it sounds like it could be many things. Simply performing a skill or process in town and directly turning your lvl 50 ogre warrior into a 50 ogre cleric.
Having skills that you can just respec (rebuilding you class as you see fit, when you want to).
Having a main character and being able to level up each class individually on that one character, etc etc.
They might not have class/race restrictions in the game. You might be able to make a Dwarf Wizard, or a Gnome Monk. What would be the difference of switching from an ogre warrior to an ogre wizard, and simply making an ogre wizard from the start?
If there are class/race combo restrictions, you can rest assured that the class-changing mechanic won't bypass that.
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No dedicated EQN forums to really discuss it.
I am not sure where you get that he says it would be difficult. He made it sound like you could have multiple classes and that this would give players more choice and would need to be balanced.
If under a scenario where EQN had some type of multiclass system like that, such a character wouldn't be a Monk. They would be a Monk/Wizard. I don't see an issue with such a system.
I like the thought of multiclass system. I've experienced open class system before other than UO, runescape etc I mean in themeparks like DOMO etc where you can be a plate wearer who can aoe or a dancing martial artist a heal tank, doge ccer with warior shouts etc at the same time. You can be a theif who plays the guitar etc. You get the idea.
Now I think more on it if you have say 3 or 4 different classes you could chose from and mix them up how you like that would save the everyone being the same problem if there were enough choices. If you were a dedicated healer you could chose to have DoT's or DH or wards etc for one example and mix it up with dps, tanking etc. Would be interesting.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Georgeson states that he believes that there are interesting and cool ways to make this happen.... I don't think easily switching to a different role is at all interesting or cool.
I'd be fine with it no matter how they put it in.
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I disagree. I think being able to change the way your main character plays is a great step in the right direction. When it comes right down to it, a game should be fun, not a second job.
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We also do not know what limitations there will be OUTSIDE of the class/skill system. The two biggest that come to mind is exactly how many buttons do you get and gear.
If we only get to ever use 8 abilities like EQs 8 spell gems and we get to choose from all skills in game, that is pretty limiting.
Gear is limiting as well. Over on the reddit we were talking about a warrior tank that decides to go rogue.
Of course a rogue would do terrible in plate strength gear. Sure we do not know there will be no dexterity plate gear, let's hope not. Sure the rogue cannot sneak in plate gear, let's hope not at least.
So now we have a situation where the warrior had to level up the rogue and has to get dexterity gear and probably level up daggers or 1H swords or fists weapons, whatever he is going to use. Seems to me he might as well have started a new toon in the old school themepark one class system. The difference now is he simply has to change gear and spells around and there you go.
Looking at the big picture of Smedley deriding content churn and needing something to do in between expansions, being able to level all classes or all abilities is a HUGE time sink, but one that I would LOVE to endeavour in.
We also do not know if there will even BE levels, maybe it is like EVE no levels no classes EVE has 22 years worth of skills to train. No one, not one person has all of the skills in EVE.
What if, I know another what if, but what if it takes upwards of 3 - 4 months to simply level 1 class? Then we are talking about things that may or may not happen a year into the life of the game here. Those first raids are going to need tanks and healers and DPS and we wont be moving on to multiclass hybrids or the problems we can think of for a while.
On a side note I cannot believe how civil everyone is being and what good points have been addressed on both sides of this discussion, keep it up guys
I don't have a problem with changing classes, I just have a problem with it being easy.
The second job argument is lame as shit. Having everything handed to you makes the game boring (like most MMOs after WoW launched, my opinion of course).
How was the argument "lame"? It's a fact. A game should be fun. Not feel like a chore.
Most games after EQ* have been easy mode. A trend that started with WoW and caught on.
You might feel that switching classes is "handing it" over to you, but others might not. No one handed you the effort put in from lvl 1 to cap. Simply being able to switch classes has nothing to do with hand outs. It's just more freedom on how you play.
Not to mention that you'll probably need to earn different gear for different class play. So not only did you have to earn all your levels, you also had to earn new sets of gear.
That's not even including any effort they require for the class switch. (like a quest line to access it, or whatever).
In any case, I can't wait for Aug 2nd so we can stop stabbing in the dark on what the game is going to be like.
All I know is that Dave Georgeson says a lot of things I agree with, so I'm sure I'm not going to be disappointed with the product they're making.
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Ya that's not what it sounds like when I listen to Dave's comment. Rest assured you're not going to be seeing plate wearing thief dps characters running around lol.
But I agree. Not only would you need to level up your character initially, you're also going to have to earn / buy all the gear to go with the separate profession(s).
It sounds to me like it could be a way to boost the crafted item economy, an alternative to an AA system (level alt classes instead of AAs), or even a mix of both those considerations.
I think it'd be a lot of fun to have 1 main character, and get to work on quests to unlock alternate class switches, or level up alternate classes like an AA system replacement. Hell, I'd even welcome the ability to just swap my character's class without having to level it up or anything. There's been a lot of games where I played, maxed out and geared up a character, and I really really wanted to try another class, but didn't feel like replaying all the low level content just to do it on an alt. Being able to swap out to another class would, in my opinion, add a lot more replay value to the game.
It would give people like me, who enjoy playing 1 character, a lot to do, even after capping out initially.
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I don't think you're understanding what I'm typing. lol Again, I do think that being able to switch classes SHOULD be in the game. Being able to change classes should be the result of a quest of some sorts, and not just a click of a button.
I'm just saying that any way they decide to put this feature in the game is fine by me. I can read what you posted just fine.
If they make it easy, that's cool.
If they make it hard, that's fine too.
I'm just glad that it's on their to-do list.
Also, you gotta remember that us Hardcores might want something to appeal to us, but in the end, the casual fanbase pays the bills. I think it'd make more sense to have the class switching mechanic have limitation (like you can't do it in the middle of a dungeon or a raid), but it's not an extremely involved process.
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Then why are you arguing with my point about making it a quest, and then turning around and talking about making a quest? ... sigh
Either way, if changing classes is a questline of sorts, I think giving out gear through the questline would be an option so you're not naked when you finish switching classes.
Because us "Hardcores" might want something to appeal to us, but in the end, the casual fanbase pays the bills. I think it'd make more sense to have the class switching mechanic have limitation (like you can't do it in the middle of a dungeon or a raid), but not make it an extremely involved process.
I'm not arguing against what you suggested, I'm simply stating that even if it is easy to do, that it won't ruin the game.
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