you realise i wasn't replying to you post right? The dopamine reference is actually about an article that was published some time ago. You understand Immersion, some people actually cannot comprehend what it is. Nothing wrong with that, the issue is actually the opposite, people arguing against elements that provide immersion for people because they don't get it.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom you realise i wasn't replying to you post right? The dopamine reference is actually about an article that was published some time ago. You understand Immersion, some people actually cannot comprehend what it is. Nothing wrong with that, the issue is actually the opposite, people arguing against elements that provide immersion for people because they don't get it.
Yes I know. You are replaying to everyone that doesn't like fast travel. Dopamine is released in response to a stimulus. Pretty much anything you like (a reward system), included slow travel will cause an endorphine release. Even neutral stimuli and pain have cause dopamine release.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Why should the "entertainment" part of the game only be in certain specific locations. In the past game design was constrained by technology limitations, it is my honest opinion these dont/shouldnt be there any more, its lazy design. There is no reason for heavy instancing, localized mob spawns, tiny mob paths or indeed rediculously predictable AI. Why cant we have worlds that work like real life ecosystems with migrating packs, single monsters and rare mobs all cohabiting a single world.
A large part of the problem is people knowing exactly where everything is. Dungeon X is in this location, mob type Y is always here and will always drop Z resource. This allows for game databases to be created removing any sort of sense of discovery or adventure.
If designers could make Ultima Online or EQ with the tech they had 10+ years ago why the hell are we still playing wow clones now? The answer is lazyness, and profit margins. The tech is there, they just too busy paying voice actors and concept artsist, and we all get bored with cookie cutter games with a new skin every 6-12 months
Originally posted by Bladestrom you realise i wasn't replying to you post right? The dopamine reference is actually about an article that was published some time ago. You understand Immersion, some people actually cannot comprehend what it is. Nothing wrong with that, the issue is actually the opposite, people arguing against elements that provide immersion for people because they don't get it.
Yes I know. You are replaying to everyone that doesn't like fast travel. Dopamine is released in response to a great deal of stimulus. Pretty much anything you like, included slow travel will cause an endorphine release.
Ah you misunderstand, i'm referring to a category of player that does not understand slow play and immersion and therefore argues that it is a waste of time, not people who just don't like it. Nothing wrong with the latter, in fact its more niche than games that are much more aggressive. BTW I like both.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
It most certainly has dwindled away and partially due to the new impatient group of players that came bout when WOW did.They actually want yellow markers and hand holding and VERY easy no depth game play.The reason is simple and we have all seen it a LOT,people like to make claims of how good they are based on their level,so players don't want to feel like a noob and want levels VERY fast.They do NOT want to be immersed into a true rpg but instead want levels and status by making claims of "look at our RAID group and what we've done".
I see the same thing in rank systems,people equate the best to rank,yet we ALWAYS see those top ranked losing to low ranked as ranking systems are always skewed into he who plays more is ranked higher,it is the same thing for leveling.Just because you have a level 90 character in WOW it means absolutely nothing,it means you followed all those yellow markers around until you dinged level 90 that is what it means.
IF a game is engaging with depth then it will be fun on it's own,levels should be VERY slow to mimic aging,you should not be aging several years within an hour or two.I find it absolutely embarrassing when developers ding you level 2 for basically making one kill or doing one quest,it is a joke.So that is what rpg gaming has come down to,free hand out levels and nothing more,then some fantasy end game grind to keep them coming back spending money.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
@ Venge: Thats a fact and even worse, they understand what immersion is but argue that its a waste of time despite this. It would be as bad as someone arguing that single player games are a waste of time because they don't have virtual worlds and slow travel, or that jazz shouldn't exist because pop is mainstream etc etc. That's the sole problem, people arguing that a thing should not exist because it doesn't suit their needs.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
But by insulting them calling them instant gratification dopamine junkies you are in effect belittling their position in effect saying they don't know what they are talking about.
It's just as bad, if not worse then what they are doing.
And you still don't know who they are. Do you know who understands it and argues against it vs the person who understands and just doesn't agree vs the person who doesn't understand?
At best its' a guessing game.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
But by insulting them calling them instant gratification dopamine junkies you are in effect belittling their position in effect saying they don't know what they are talking about.
It's just as bad, if not worse then what they are doing.
And you still don't know who they are. Do you know who understands it and argues against it vs the person who understands and just doesn't agree vs the person who doesn't understand?
At best its' a guessing game.
"You don't like it, so you must not understand it." Its a cop-out response when someone can't think of any proper counter-argument.
Then again, he really might think he is above everyone else.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
But by insulting them calling them instant gratification dopamine junkies you are in effect belittling their position in effect saying they don't know what they are talking about.
It's just as bad, if not worse then what they are doing.
And you still don't know who they are. Do you know who understands it and argues against it vs the person who understands and just doesn't agree vs the person who doesn't understand?
At best its' a guessing game.
The beginings of ad hominem does not contribute to a discussion., I could refer to very specific posts and posters, but that's not what a forum is about. Ironically I agreed with your points, but you are too wrapped up in attacking to realise it. So to clarify on my early post, what i am saying is that some people argue against immersion because they don't understand a style of play, you argue that some do understand and choose to ignore it. You think the latter is not worse than the former?
to clarify above, im not saying 'you dont like it so you cannot understand it' im saying that someone saying a game style is wrong and invalid because they don't like it is incorrect, and i'm saying some people do not understand what immersive role playing is about (as an example) I don't think that is factually incorrect.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
What is the difference of insta-teleporting to the content you intend on hunting
VS that content being in your travels?
Because then gamers would complain the world/game feels claustrophobic.
When you hit content on your travels your traveling ceases. You digest the content and then carry on with your travels. Unless the content is something you can do whilst still traveling.
A Great example of a game that has just came out that has masses of slow travel and is very popular is Elite Dangerous. Many love this game, Many will hate it because of the traveling, but the fact is the slow traveling is integral to the game and makes it what it is.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
At blade I'm saying you don't know what someone else knows or what they understand is or what their motivations are so all you are doing is insulting people.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
But by insulting them calling them instant gratification dopamine junkies you are in effect belittling their position in effect saying they don't know what they are talking about.
It's just as bad, if not worse then what they are doing.
And you still don't know who they are. Do you know who understands it and argues against it vs the person who understands and just doesn't agree vs the person who doesn't understand?
At best its' a guessing game.
The beginings of ad hominem does not contribute to a discussion., I could refer to very specific posts and posters, but that's not what a forum is about. Ironically I agreed with your points, but you are too wrapped up in attacking to realise it. So to clarify on my early post, what i am saying is that some people argue against immersion because they don't understand a style of play, you argue that some do understand and choose to ignore it. You think the latter is not worse than the former?
to clarify above, im not saying 'you dont like it so you cannot understand it' im saying that someone saying a game style is wrong and invalid because they don't like it is incorrect, and i'm saying some people do not understand what immersive role playing is about (as an example) I don't think that is factually incorrect.
Venge didn't use an ad hominem - you did. He criticized you for doing it. By bringing it up, you hinted that the side that doesn't agree with you doesn't understand immersion. Even if you wrote "some people".
In the same manner I could write: Some people are more easily entertained than others, therefore slow travel time and arduous repetition is good gameplay for them.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
But by insulting them calling them instant gratification dopamine junkies you are in effect belittling their position in effect saying they don't know what they are talking about.
It's just as bad, if not worse then what they are doing.
And you still don't know who they are. Do you know who understands it and argues against it vs the person who understands and just doesn't agree vs the person who doesn't understand?
At best its' a guessing game.
The beginings of ad hominem does not contribute to a discussion., I could refer to very specific posts and posters, but that's not what a forum is about. Ironically I agreed with your points, but you are too wrapped up in attacking to realise it. So to clarify on my early post, what i am saying is that some people argue against immersion because they don't understand a style of play, you argue that some do understand and choose to ignore it. You think the latter is not worse than the former?
to clarify above, im not saying 'you dont like it so you cannot understand it' im saying that someone saying a game style is wrong and invalid because they don't like it is incorrect, and i'm saying some people do not understand what immersive role playing is about (as an example) I don't think that is factually incorrect.
Venge didn't use an ad hominem - you did. He criticized you for doing it. By bringing it up, you hinted that the side that doesn't agree with you doesn't understand immersion. Even if you wrote "some people".
In the same manner I could write: Some people are more easily entertained than others, therefore slow travel time and arduous repetition is good gameplay for them.
No that's not what i said. I wrote some people because i mean some people. Some people do not understand immersion, that is not an attack on an individual and i'm not hinting, i'm out and out saying that in some cases this will be because it the games does not give the level of dopamine release they need to enjoy a game. Venge may choose to be offended by that but there are studies that back this up. Players do indeed get addicted to higher levels of dopamine release. What 'side' are you referring to?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar At blade I'm saying you don't know what someone else knows or what they understand is or what their motivations are so all you are doing is insulting people.
And who exactly is insulted and why? no point entering a debate if you cant be rational. See post above.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
No point having a debate if you are just going to throw around insults like they don't understand or they are just chasing a dopamine high simply because they put forward a different opinion.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Many many mange studies have shown that people do not get addicted to their own hormones. The adrenal junkie is a myth. The endorphine response is not an addiction.
And those same endorphins and yes dopamine is one of them are released in neutral and painful stimulus as well. They are also used to aid in focus and concentration. Heck it's even used to control movement.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar At blade I'm saying you don't know what someone else knows or what they understand is or what their motivations are so all you are doing is insulting people.
And who exactly is insulted and why? no point entering a debate if you cant be rational. See post above.
I don't get this being insulted because of the possibility that you could be more easily entertained than someone else; it's a good thing.
Would I be insulted if someone said I had a low tolerance for alcohol? Hell no, it would be cheaper and less damaging on the liver. Win-win. Would life be easier if it took some heavy kinky shit to get me off, or would it be better if it just took an old fashioned Playboy issue to do the trick?
Who has the time to be insulted by such things. Ridiculous.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Many many mange studies have shown that people do not get addicted to their own hormones. The adrenal junkie is a myth. The endorphine response is not an addiction.
And those same endorphins and yes dopamine is one of them are released in neutral and painful stimulus as well. They are also used to aid in focus and concentration. Heck it's even used to control movement.
Whoa. Do you work in the medical field in any capacity? I do.
Be careful with a lot of these studies you find online. Often times they can be more than a little bit out there, and have the added ability to make one look quite silly.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Yes i do. By profession I'm a physical therapist and part of a team dealing with a great deal of people with disabilities physical and psychological. We regularly go to conferences taking about the latest studies and research and treatment methods. Two of the doctors i work with are addiction specialists.
The current research on auction is centered largely around receptor disregulation. The question is why does it disregulate?
We do know that on some genetics are at play. Err suspect that lifestyle has an affect but haven't been able to show that yet. We do know that receptors can disregulate and reregulate by simmering as simple as self talk. Which is why the 12 step programs are so effective
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
Why would you try and insult people for something as simple as not liking the same thing you like.
Not caring about immersion - you don't know what they care about. I do care about immersion. I don't find long travel immersive in most cases.
Going only for a dopamine hit - an obvious jibe at instant gratification. Once again you don't know what they like or why they are playing.
Why be insulting?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Yes I know. You are replaying to everyone that doesn't like fast travel. Dopamine is released in response to a stimulus. Pretty much anything you like (a reward system), included slow travel will cause an endorphine release. Even neutral stimuli and pain have cause dopamine release.
Why should the "entertainment" part of the game only be in certain specific locations. In the past game design was constrained by technology limitations, it is my honest opinion these dont/shouldnt be there any more, its lazy design. There is no reason for heavy instancing, localized mob spawns, tiny mob paths or indeed rediculously predictable AI. Why cant we have worlds that work like real life ecosystems with migrating packs, single monsters and rare mobs all cohabiting a single world.
A large part of the problem is people knowing exactly where everything is. Dungeon X is in this location, mob type Y is always here and will always drop Z resource. This allows for game databases to be created removing any sort of sense of discovery or adventure.
If designers could make Ultima Online or EQ with the tech they had 10+ years ago why the hell are we still playing wow clones now? The answer is lazyness, and profit margins. The tech is there, they just too busy paying voice actors and concept artsist, and we all get bored with cookie cutter games with a new skin every 6-12 months
Ah you misunderstand, i'm referring to a category of player that does not understand slow play and immersion and therefore argues that it is a waste of time, not people who just don't like it. Nothing wrong with the latter, in fact its more niche than games that are much more aggressive. BTW I like both.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
That's always the argument people use.
"They don't understand it"
Everyone thinks everyone else is stupider than they are. It's highly probable they do understand it. They just don't agree.
edit - makes me think of a picture from one of my classes.
Hmm can't post an image
It most certainly has dwindled away and partially due to the new impatient group of players that came bout when WOW did.They actually want yellow markers and hand holding and VERY easy no depth game play.The reason is simple and we have all seen it a LOT,people like to make claims of how good they are based on their level,so players don't want to feel like a noob and want levels VERY fast.They do NOT want to be immersed into a true rpg but instead want levels and status by making claims of "look at our RAID group and what we've done".
I see the same thing in rank systems,people equate the best to rank,yet we ALWAYS see those top ranked losing to low ranked as ranking systems are always skewed into he who plays more is ranked higher,it is the same thing for leveling.Just because you have a level 90 character in WOW it means absolutely nothing,it means you followed all those yellow markers around until you dinged level 90 that is what it means.
IF a game is engaging with depth then it will be fun on it's own,levels should be VERY slow to mimic aging,you should not be aging several years within an hour or two.I find it absolutely embarrassing when developers ding you level 2 for basically making one kill or doing one quest,it is a joke.So that is what rpg gaming has come down to,free hand out levels and nothing more,then some fantasy end game grind to keep them coming back spending money.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
But by insulting them calling them instant gratification dopamine junkies you are in effect belittling their position in effect saying they don't know what they are talking about.
It's just as bad, if not worse then what they are doing.
And you still don't know who they are. Do you know who understands it and argues against it vs the person who understands and just doesn't agree vs the person who doesn't understand?
At best its' a guessing game.
LMAO, EQ fast travel. Run to Karana without SoW +/- 2 hours, to Valdeholm, 4 hours.
"You don't like it, so you must not understand it." Its a cop-out response when someone can't think of any proper counter-argument.
Then again, he really might think he is above everyone else.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The beginings of ad hominem does not contribute to a discussion., I could refer to very specific posts and posters, but that's not what a forum is about. Ironically I agreed with your points, but you are too wrapped up in attacking to realise it. So to clarify on my early post, what i am saying is that some people argue against immersion because they don't understand a style of play, you argue that some do understand and choose to ignore it. You think the latter is not worse than the former?
to clarify above, im not saying 'you dont like it so you cannot understand it' im saying that someone saying a game style is wrong and invalid because they don't like it is incorrect, and i'm saying some people do not understand what immersive role playing is about (as an example) I don't think that is factually incorrect.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Because then gamers would complain the world/game feels claustrophobic.
When you hit content on your travels your traveling ceases. You digest the content and then carry on with your travels. Unless the content is something you can do whilst still traveling.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Venge didn't use an ad hominem - you did. He criticized you for doing it. By bringing it up, you hinted that the side that doesn't agree with you doesn't understand immersion. Even if you wrote "some people".
In the same manner I could write: Some people are more easily entertained than others, therefore slow travel time and arduous repetition is good gameplay for them.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
No that's not what i said. I wrote some people because i mean some people. Some people do not understand immersion, that is not an attack on an individual and i'm not hinting, i'm out and out saying that in some cases this will be because it the games does not give the level of dopamine release they need to enjoy a game. Venge may choose to be offended by that but there are studies that back this up. Players do indeed get addicted to higher levels of dopamine release. What 'side' are you referring to?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
And who exactly is insulted and why? no point entering a debate if you cant be rational. See post above.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
And those same endorphins and yes dopamine is one of them are released in neutral and painful stimulus as well. They are also used to aid in focus and concentration. Heck it's even used to control movement.
I don't get this being insulted because of the possibility that you could be more easily entertained than someone else; it's a good thing.
Would I be insulted if someone said I had a low tolerance for alcohol? Hell no, it would be cheaper and less damaging on the liver. Win-win. Would life be easier if it took some heavy kinky shit to get me off, or would it be better if it just took an old fashioned Playboy issue to do the trick?
Who has the time to be insulted by such things. Ridiculous.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
alright cool, now its interesting, have you seen this article:
http://patients.aan.com/resources/neurologynow/index.cfm?event=home.showArticle&id=ovid.com:/bib/ovftdb/01222928-201410030-00017
now note im not talking about gaming addiction, i'm taking about players becoming used to high levels of dopamine release.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Whoa. Do you work in the medical field in any capacity? I do.
Be careful with a lot of these studies you find online. Often times they can be more than a little bit out there, and have the added ability to make one look quite silly.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
The current research on auction is centered largely around receptor disregulation. The question is why does it disregulate?
We do know that on some genetics are at play. Err suspect that lifestyle has an affect but haven't been able to show that yet. We do know that receptors can disregulate and reregulate by simmering as simple as self talk. Which is why the 12 step programs are so effective