Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Yes i do. By profession I'm a physical therapist and part of a team dealing with a great deal of people with disabilities physical and psychological. We regularly go to conferences taking about the latest studies and research and treatment methods. Two of the doctors i work with are addiction specialists.
The current research on auction is centered largely around receptor disregulation. The question is why does it disregulate?
We do know that on some genetics are at play. Err suspect that lifestyle has an affect but haven't been able to show that yet. We do know that receptors can disregulate and reregulate by simmering as simple as self talk. Which is why the 12 step programs are so effective
Lol.
Goes to show you never know who you're talking to on the internet. I'm an RT currently working in a Hospital, so you likely have more knowledge on this subject given your situation. Sorry to have come off as a douche, but thanks nonetheless for the fascinating information.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
But by insulting them calling them instant gratification dopamine junkies you are in effect belittling their position in effect saying they don't know what they are talking about.
It's just as bad, if not worse then what they are doing.
And you still don't know who they are. Do you know who understands it and argues against it vs the person who understands and just doesn't agree vs the person who doesn't understand?
At best its' a guessing game.
The beginings of ad hominem does not contribute to a discussion., I could refer to very specific posts and posters, but that's not what a forum is about. Ironically I agreed with your points, but you are too wrapped up in attacking to realise it. So to clarify on my early post, what i am saying is that some people argue against immersion because they don't understand a style of play, you argue that some do understand and choose to ignore it. You think the latter is not worse than the former?
to clarify above, im not saying 'you dont like it so you cannot understand it' im saying that someone saying a game style is wrong and invalid because they don't like it is incorrect, and i'm saying some people do not understand what immersive role playing is about (as an example) I don't think that is factually incorrect.
Venge didn't use an ad hominem - you did. He criticized you for doing it. By bringing it up, you hinted that the side that doesn't agree with you doesn't understand immersion. Even if you wrote "some people".
In the same manner I could write: Some people are more easily entertained than others, therefore slow travel time and arduous repetition is good gameplay for them.
No that's not what i said. I wrote some people because i mean some people. Some people do not understand immersion, that is not an attack on an individual and i'm not hinting, i'm out and out saying that in some cases this will be because it the games does not give the level of dopamine release they need to enjoy a game. Venge may choose to be offended by that but there are studies that back this up. Players do indeed get addicted to higher levels of dopamine release. What 'side' are you referring to?
If you weren't referring to anyone disagreeing with you on this thread, why did you bring it up? The point you brought up would be irrelevant if you didn't.
Now to get back on topic lets go through a few points shall we?
No one is suggesting one should be able to teleport right in front of the boss they are supposed to kill.
No one is suggesting every game should have fast travel.
In nearly every game with fast travel, you have to explore and find the points to which you can travel. Hence, fast travel does not eliminate exploration.
Slow travel does not equal immersion nor is it required for immersion.
There. Can we agree on those?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
We can. Slow travel can contribute to immersion and equally travel can be immersive, and is used in many games for just that reason, examples earlier include adventure games, RPG games, Elite Dangerous.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
But by insulting them calling them instant gratification dopamine junkies you are in effect belittling their position in effect saying they don't know what they are talking about.
It's just as bad, if not worse then what they are doing.
And you still don't know who they are. Do you know who understands it and argues against it vs the person who understands and just doesn't agree vs the person who doesn't understand?
At best its' a guessing game.
The beginings of ad hominem does not contribute to a discussion., I could refer to very specific posts and posters, but that's not what a forum is about. Ironically I agreed with your points, but you are too wrapped up in attacking to realise it. So to clarify on my early post, what i am saying is that some people argue against immersion because they don't understand a style of play, you argue that some do understand and choose to ignore it. You think the latter is not worse than the former?
to clarify above, im not saying 'you dont like it so you cannot understand it' im saying that someone saying a game style is wrong and invalid because they don't like it is incorrect, and i'm saying some people do not understand what immersive role playing is about (as an example) I don't think that is factually incorrect.
Venge didn't use an ad hominem - you did. He criticized you for doing it. By bringing it up, you hinted that the side that doesn't agree with you doesn't understand immersion. Even if you wrote "some people".
In the same manner I could write: Some people are more easily entertained than others, therefore slow travel time and arduous repetition is good gameplay for them.
No that's not what i said. I wrote some people because i mean some people. Some people do not understand immersion, that is not an attack on an individual and i'm not hinting, i'm out and out saying that in some cases this will be because it the games does not give the level of dopamine release they need to enjoy a game. Venge may choose to be offended by that but there are studies that back this up. Players do indeed get addicted to higher levels of dopamine release. What 'side' are you referring to?
If you weren't referring to anyone disagreeing with you on this thread, why did you bring it up? The point you brought up would be irrelevant if you didn't.
Now to get back on topic lets go through a few points shall we?
No one is suggesting one should be able to teleport right in front of the boss they are supposed to kill.
No one is suggesting every game should have fast travel.
In nearly every game with fast travel, you have to explore and find the points to which you can travel. Hence, fast travel does not eliminate exploration.
Slow travel does not equal immersion nor is it required for immersion.
There. Can we agree on those?
1. I hope we're not that bad yet.
2. I don't know of a single MMO released in the past five years (at least) without insta travel).
3. Why should you be able to insta travel after you travel to a location once?
4. I agree. But the DANGER and unknown combined with exploration encourages a person to take notice of the world they are in. I don't really know what immersion means anyways (or why someone would want it or what slow vs fast travel has to do with it).
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar At kiyoris you know that eq had two class that can port and did port others regularly right?
Yes, that is true, although not always availalbe, Depended on friends and luck. For me, I was not always lucky to have a port, so running to Karana did take me a long long time in Everquest!
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar At kiyoris you know that eq had two class that can port and did port others regularly right?
Yes, that is true, although not always availalbe, Depended on friends and luck. For me, I was not always lucky to have a port, so running to Karana did take me a long long time in Everquest!
(sorry if off topic guys)
This type of insta travel brings people together and makes people rely on each other.
Consider Elite dangerous in particular, flight is wonderfully immersive and the game requires long periods of travel between identical looking star systems which is exactly the worst case scenario from the perspective of someone who hates long travel - but many people love it because it contributes to the immersive experience within the virtual universe. It would not be an immersive experience if you simlpy jumped from system to system instantly - slow travel is required.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I think Travel is not so much the issue as is content and design. Let's look at the classics in their heyday for a minute. These were games such as Ultima Online, EQ and DAoC. What was so immersive about these games? What made you play them for years and what makes you feel so nostalgic about them? They had something that developers have forgotten. These were open worlds and although they had some questing they were not quest-driven.
You could travel and explore pretty much anywhere. Dungeons were not really instanced and you would see newbies at the beginning of a dungeon and veterans deep within its depths. Crafting was pretty fun and player made items were worth something. Ultima Online had a wonderful player run economy with a healthy "rares" market that the developers never foresaw on their drawingboard. DAoC had the best endgame ever. To many players, hitting 50 was the beginning. PvP (or RvR as they called it) had purpose and meaning. Attacking and defending castles with siege engines was awesome. Protecting relics gave you an adrenaline rush. Who does not remember hearing the broadcast call on chat announcing that the enemy was heading for Excalibur and how many hundreds would stop what they were doing to answer the call to defend? There was no need to increase the level cap every year in order keep players artificially subscribed by forcing them to buy an expansion and begin the level grind all over again.
The concept of the dungeon "Darkness Falls" was ingenious, and who played DAoC who does not have some stories about "Darkness Falls" to tell? EQ was challenging. Yes, travel was tedious and it helped to be invisible or be able to levitate. Who doesn't remember getting a Shaman buff before crossing the Karanas? I think content was the key. It was the content that kept you challenged regardless of level and class. It was a community of players that drove the economy and made each of these games a pleasure to play and the fact that they were subscription based and not F2P or P2W
Yes, I admit that I am nostalgic and am always looking for a game that incorporates the elements that made these games great. Unfortunately, I haven't had much luck in finding one during these last few years. I am hoping that developers wake up and review these games again and see the elements that made them great. If they did, they would be able to make a new great game instead of all the garbage that's out there. A great game does not need a cash shop. People will gladly pay a subscription to play it and most likely stay on for a long time. Just mho on the subject.
I think Travel is not so much the issue as is content and design. Let's look at the classics in their heyday for a minute. These were games such as Ultima Online, EQ and DAoC. What was so immersive about these games? What made you play them for years and what makes you feel so nostalgic about them? They had something that developers have forgotten. These were open worlds and although they had some questing they were not quest-driven.
You could travel and explore pretty much anywhere. Dungeons were not really instanced and you would see newbies at the beginning of a dungeon and veterans deep within its depths. Crafting was pretty fun and player made items were worth something. Ultima Online had a wonderful player run economy with a healthy "rares" market that the developers never foresaw on their drawingboard. DAoC had the best endgame ever. To many players, hitting 50 was the beginning. PvP (or RvR as they called it) had purpose and meaning. Attacking and defending castles with siege engines was awesome. Protecting relics gave you an adrenaline rush. Who does not remember hearing the broadcast call on chat announcing that the enemy was heading for Excalibur and how many hundreds would stop what they were doing to answer the call to defend? There was no need to increase the level cap every year in order keep players artificially subscribed by forcing them to buy an expansion and begin the level grind all over again.
The concept of the dungeon "Darkness Falls" was ingenious, and who played DAoC who does not have some stories about "Darkness Falls" to tell? EQ was challenging. Yes, travel was tedious and it helped to be invisible or be able to levitate. Who doesn't remember getting a Shaman buff before crossing the Karanas? I think content was the key. It was the content that kept you challenged regardless of level and class. It was a community of players that drove the economy and made each of these games a pleasure to play and the fact that they were subscription based and not F2P or P2W
Yes, I admit that I am nostalgic and am always looking for a game that incorporates the elements that made these games great. Unfortunately, I haven't had much luck in finding one during these last few years. I am hoping that developers wake up and review these games again and see the elements that made them great. If they did, they would be able to make a new great game instead of all the garbage that's out there. A great game does not need a cash shop. People will gladly pay a subscription to play it and most likely stay on for a long time. Just mho on the subject.
You're making me want to cry. Or bitch more about the current state of MMOs.
Horseback is slow travel within the context of this thread, and the above demonstrates the point nicely, you are in a journey and you stop on the way because things take your interest - resource nodes, a mob etc. fast travel aka portals, insta jump, lobby queues miss out on this.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom A Great example of a game that has just came out that has masses of slow travel and is very popular is Elite Dangerous. Many love this game, Many will hate it because of the traveling, but the fact is the slow traveling is integral to the game and makes it what it is.
Thank you for the info. Now i know i can skip this game.
Originally posted by Bladestrom Horseback is slow travel within the context of this thread, and the above demonstrates the point nicely, you are in a journey and you stop on the way because things take your interest - resource nodes, a mob etc. fast travel aka portals, insta jump, lobby queues miss out on this.
nope .. horseback is a very slow way to get a little bit of interesting stuff (resource, mob ...).
A lobby/portal ... let a player jump into those interesting things right away. There is nothing to miss. If you can put an interesting band of bandits on the road, you can put them in an instance, and assessible with zero boring (to me) travel time.
nope .. horseback is a very slow way to get a little bit of interesting stuff (resource, mob ...).
A lobby/portal ... let a player jump into those interesting things right away. There is nothing to miss. If you can put an interesting band of bandits on the road, you can put them in an instance, and assessible with zero boring (to me) travel time.
You need to have some of the mundane to offset the exciting, or the exciting becomes mundane. Too much constant action/shinies/instant gratification can wear.
Not in video games. Why? Because you can always doing something else before playing again. It is not like a movie where you have to watch from start to finish.
Plus, there are enough "mundane" to sell items, identify items, and so on ....
In fact, just look at games like WoW, Diablo, LoL, and all the successful lobby games .... totally no travel time, no "mundane" to offset the exciting. It shows that no one "needs" the mundane. You may want the mundane, but don't assume everyone "needs" it.
nope .. horseback is a very slow way to get a little bit of interesting stuff (resource, mob ...).
A lobby/portal ... let a player jump into those interesting things right away. There is nothing to miss. If you can put an interesting band of bandits on the road, you can put them in an instance, and assessible with zero boring (to me) travel time.
You need to have some of the mundane to offset the exciting, or the exciting becomes mundane. Too much constant action/shinies/instant gratification can wear.
Not in video games. Why? Because you can always doing something else before playing again. It is not like a movie where you have to watch from start to finish.
Plus, there are enough "mundane" to sell items, identify items, and so on ....
In fact, just look at games like WoW, Diablo, LoL, and all the successful lobby games .... totally no travel time, no "mundane" to offset the exciting. It shows that no one "needs" the mundane. You may want the mundane, but don't assume everyone "needs" it.
Travel can be part of the adventure... sometimes one of the best parts.
I've looked at and played some of those "successful lobby games." "Played"... not playing them anymore. No staying power.
While I acknowledge the instant gratification aspects of some games, few or any of them have staying power for me.
I never "assumed everyone needs" (the mundane). However, some of your posts seem to assume all folks need is to bounce from MOBA to MOBA to MOBA... There is a crowd out there that wants a deeper MMO experience. Do you have issue with letting them have it? (I mean, some folks like anchovies on their pizza. Would you let them have it or protest it? Not impacting you.)
well, you do not like the successful lobby games, does not mean that others don't. Secondly, playing a long time is not the only measure of success. I would prefer 10 hours of very fun than 100 hours of mediocre adventure. Having said that, players spend years on lobby games like Diablo and LoL (apparently not you).
Now I never said no one likes the mundane or they shouldn't have it (btw, i love anchovies, you need to use another example, like black olives). I am just pointing out some does not like "boring" (to them) slow travel in games, which is a voice very much lacking in this thread.
In fact, if you look at this thread only, one may think people want to just walk around in their video games, which I think is the opposite to the preference of the majority.
Originally posted by Bladestrom A Great example of a game that has just came out that has masses of slow travel and is very popular is Elite Dangerous. Many love this game, Many will hate it because of the traveling, but the fact is the slow traveling is integral to the game and makes it what it is.
Thank you for the info. Now i know i can skip this game.
As you often say, developers will develop what the market wants.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom A Great example of a game that has just came out that has masses of slow travel and is very popular is Elite Dangerous. Many love this game, Many will hate it because of the traveling, but the fact is the slow traveling is integral to the game and makes it what it is.
Thank you for the info. Now i know i can skip this game.
As you often say, developers will develop what the market wants.
Of course. And that is why there is a huge selection of fun games. And that is also why i don't have to tolerate even little things I don't like in games, because i can always vote with my feet.
It is not like i need to suffer slow travel if i want to play a video game.
I agree with the OP, however, there has to be different game design elements to give an incentive for long/epic travel. I think this is a good direction for developers to focus on.
Adventure/Questing Gameplay
I believe that questing should be redefined and redesigned to a point where they're not errand quests that are pointless and meaningless. Why not go on an adventure instead? An adventure is a quest that incorporates 'epic' travel and makes it more interesting. It would be cross zone. Let's say you get a quest in a zone called the "Riverlands' and you and your group accepted to kill a named mob in a military base that is housed in some ruins in the jungle south of you.
Let's say you and your group have to travel through 3 different zones which is about an hour or two on gameplay depending on lack of wipes. So the sequence of traveling zones would be this: Riverlands>Gnoll Hills>Red Barrens>Noxvine Jungle.
While on your trek to the ruins a spy of the named mob sends messengers to warn of a bounty on his head. This could cause 1 of two 'if then statements'. 1. If you make it to the jungle within a certain amount of time the named mob stays and defends him self. or 2. If you don't make it to the jungle in a certain amount of time then the named mob has a chance to escape. This could make things interesting. Allow different triggered events on your way there and allow certain wave of mobs to come and stop you as well as traps along the way.
Dynamic Content for Epic Travel - a Different way to choose.
This will compliment the above section I have described. While you and your party are trekking to get this named mob killed, what if on your way there, there is a town that you stop at because it sells reagents super cheap and as a banker there. This small town is a great rest stop instead of going to a larger city miles down the road. However, a zone event occurs and players failed in another zone at a zone event in which a company of orcs are on their way to raid and pilliage that town you hold dear. So then you and your group has a choice. 1. Continue the quest at hand or 2. Defend the town and forget the quest at hand or 3. Defend the town and continue the quest at hand running the risk of the the named mob to escape. As a group you'd weigh what is worth more and what you should do.
Some things players may have to think about while making this decision. Will others players defend that town while we finish our adventure? Can we put our trust in other players to care? For example purposes let's say the group decides to defend the town because if the orcs win that town is occupied by orc NPC's for 2-3 weeks before you can attempt to take the town back over again. As you succeed in to defending your town, what if you get massive benefits and rewards for defending that town and perhaps a title only you can have.
However, the named mob from the jungle has escaped and went somewhere else. Technically your adventure failed. But that's fine. Your group still got a reward to defend the town. Can you still choose and hunt down the named mob. Sure why not? Would it be a more of a challenge to find him? Absolutely. If you find him will you get a reward? Absolutely!
Conclusion
As you can see this type of gameplay would bring back the immersion factor and have a reason for epic travel in games. It would also enhance the choice of gameplay. That would be the whole point in your choice. This is a great feature to influence the world around you as well. Instead of having a interior dungeon crawl persay it would be an exterior wilderness crawl in a way.
Now on fast travel. I think there should be fast travel to a certain extent. Wizard/Druid ports, other secret ports if you find hidden quests for it ect. I don't think fast travel should be the norm but should be there in spurts.
Dynamic Content for Epic Travel - a Different way to choose.
This will compliment the above section I have described. While you and your party are trekking to get this named mob killed, what if on your way there, there is a town that you stop at because it sells reagents super cheap and as a banker there. This small town is a great rest stop instead of going to a larger city miles down the road. However, a zone event occurs and players failed in another zone at a zone event in which a company of orcs are on their way to raid and pilliage that town you hold dear. So then you and your group has a choice. 1. Continue the quest at hand or 2. Defend the town and forget the quest at hand or 3. Defend the town and continue the quest at hand running the risk of the the named mob to escape. As a group you'd weigh what is worth more and what you should do.
Some things players may have to think about while making this decision. Will others players defend that town while we finish our adventure? Can we put our trust in other players to care? For example purposes let's say the group decides to defend the town because if the orcs win that town is occupied by orc NPC's for 2-3 weeks before you can attempt to take the town back over again. As you succeed in to defending your town, what if you get massive benefits and rewards for defending that town and perhaps a title only you can have.
However, the named mob from the jungle has escaped and went somewhere else. Technically your adventure failed. But that's fine. Your group still got a reward to defend the town. Can you still choose and hunt down the named mob. Sure why not? Would it be a more of a challenge to find him? Absolutely. If you find him will you get a reward? Absolutely!
You are describing a quest, an adventure, and it has nothing to do with slow travel.
A dev can simply implemented this by when a player click on fast travel, there is some chance that this "travel adventure" spawn, and the party is dropped into this adventure.
There is little reason to walk 10 min to get to this interesting part ... if the walking in wilderness is not fun for the player.
Dynamic Content for Epic Travel - a Different way to choose.
This will compliment the above section I have described. While you and your party are trekking to get this named mob killed, what if on your way there, there is a town that you stop at because it sells reagents super cheap and as a banker there. This small town is a great rest stop instead of going to a larger city miles down the road. However, a zone event occurs and players failed in another zone at a zone event in which a company of orcs are on their way to raid and pilliage that town you hold dear. So then you and your group has a choice. 1. Continue the quest at hand or 2. Defend the town and forget the quest at hand or 3. Defend the town and continue the quest at hand running the risk of the the named mob to escape. As a group you'd weigh what is worth more and what you should do.
Some things players may have to think about while making this decision. Will others players defend that town while we finish our adventure? Can we put our trust in other players to care? For example purposes let's say the group decides to defend the town because if the orcs win that town is occupied by orc NPC's for 2-3 weeks before you can attempt to take the town back over again. As you succeed in to defending your town, what if you get massive benefits and rewards for defending that town and perhaps a title only you can have.
However, the named mob from the jungle has escaped and went somewhere else. Technically your adventure failed. But that's fine. Your group still got a reward to defend the town. Can you still choose and hunt down the named mob. Sure why not? Would it be a more of a challenge to find him? Absolutely. If you find him will you get a reward? Absolutely!
You are describing a quest, an adventure, and it has nothing to do with slow travel.
A dev can simply implemented this by when a player click on fast travel, there is some chance that this "travel adventure" spawn, and the party is dropped into this adventure.
There is little reason to walk 10 min to get to this interesting part ... if the walking in wilderness is not fun for the player.
lol... leave it to you to take a great base concept idea and still have some way to butcher crap to your ridiculous "game" in trolling entertainment... if not outright stupidity.
After a while I don't respond to it. It's the same rehash everytime. Not even a worth to reply back. It's like its apart of a wow cult lol
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Some of the most immersive mmorpg games I've played had fast travel options. Eq and istaria for starters.
I never played Istaria, but EQ (pre-Luclin and PoK) the fast travel was limited to Druids and Wizards. In order to fast travel, you had to interact with other players. Most spell casting classes had a "Gate" spell, but that was to 1 specific point, where the player was bound.
As EQ is now, yes, any player can fast travel, but it is still limited. It is nothing like open map, click spot, be there, like GW2 and their waypoints.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
The goal to get an immersive game (IMO) is the complete package , not just one missing "old school" travel feature, but a game that completes itself with many features..Such as ..
1 A rather tough Death penalty This by itself forces players to work together be as much as in Death as in Life
2 Tough Travel routes, When careful planning is needed to get to Point B
3 A solid grouping feature..With this in the game friends are made, friends that will later help you out with both the above Points.
4. All the bells and whistles from todays modern Graphics and Sound helps out ALOT, at 2014 we should expect some standard here and it's also the one Point in MMO's that is actually better and will only get better, naturally
5. Setting is important , Not everyone likes a Classic Dungeons and Dragons setting etc etc
6 THe concept of a World vs GAME, for some this is important to get fully immersed.. If to many gamey features are present that directly reminds you that this is a PC game it will also be harder to take the game serious.. Not that anyone will forget that they are playing a game regardless of setting or how the game is made, but just making it easier to not be reminded as much makes it more immersive..
It's very difficult to do that though. I'll use eq again as an example. Everyone brings up kithicor woods as an example of interesting travel. But it really wasn't. All you learned to do was hug the wall.
So how do you make travel interesting nit just the first time but the 20th time as well. I'm not saying it can't be done i just don't know how they would do it.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
Lol.
Goes to show you never know who you're talking to on the internet. I'm an RT currently working in a Hospital, so you likely have more knowledge on this subject given your situation. Sorry to have come off as a douche, but thanks nonetheless for the fascinating information.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
No
If you weren't referring to anyone disagreeing with you on this thread, why did you bring it up? The point you brought up would be irrelevant if you didn't.
Now to get back on topic lets go through a few points shall we?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
1. I hope we're not that bad yet.
2. I don't know of a single MMO released in the past five years (at least) without insta travel).
3. Why should you be able to insta travel after you travel to a location once?
4. I agree. But the DANGER and unknown combined with exploration encourages a person to take notice of the world they are in. I don't really know what immersion means anyways (or why someone would want it or what slow vs fast travel has to do with it).
Yes, that is true, although not always availalbe, Depended on friends and luck. For me, I was not always lucky to have a port, so running to Karana did take me a long long time in Everquest!
(sorry if off topic guys)
This type of insta travel brings people together and makes people rely on each other.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I think Travel is not so much the issue as is content and design. Let's look at the classics in their heyday for a minute. These were games such as Ultima Online, EQ and DAoC. What was so immersive about these games? What made you play them for years and what makes you feel so nostalgic about them? They had something that developers have forgotten. These were open worlds and although they had some questing they were not quest-driven.
You could travel and explore pretty much anywhere. Dungeons were not really instanced and you would see newbies at the beginning of a dungeon and veterans deep within its depths. Crafting was pretty fun and player made items were worth something. Ultima Online had a wonderful player run economy with a healthy "rares" market that the developers never foresaw on their drawingboard. DAoC had the best endgame ever. To many players, hitting 50 was the beginning. PvP (or RvR as they called it) had purpose and meaning. Attacking and defending castles with siege engines was awesome. Protecting relics gave you an adrenaline rush. Who does not remember hearing the broadcast call on chat announcing that the enemy was heading for Excalibur and how many hundreds would stop what they were doing to answer the call to defend? There was no need to increase the level cap every year in order keep players artificially subscribed by forcing them to buy an expansion and begin the level grind all over again.
The concept of the dungeon "Darkness Falls" was ingenious, and who played DAoC who does not have some stories about "Darkness Falls" to tell? EQ was challenging. Yes, travel was tedious and it helped to be invisible or be able to levitate. Who doesn't remember getting a Shaman buff before crossing the Karanas? I think content was the key. It was the content that kept you challenged regardless of level and class. It was a community of players that drove the economy and made each of these games a pleasure to play and the fact that they were subscription based and not F2P or P2W
Yes, I admit that I am nostalgic and am always looking for a game that incorporates the elements that made these games great. Unfortunately, I haven't had much luck in finding one during these last few years. I am hoping that developers wake up and review these games again and see the elements that made them great. If they did, they would be able to make a new great game instead of all the garbage that's out there. A great game does not need a cash shop. People will gladly pay a subscription to play it and most likely stay on for a long time. Just mho on the subject.
You're making me want to cry. Or bitch more about the current state of MMOs.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Thank you for the info. Now i know i can skip this game.
nope .. horseback is a very slow way to get a little bit of interesting stuff (resource, mob ...).
A lobby/portal ... let a player jump into those interesting things right away. There is nothing to miss. If you can put an interesting band of bandits on the road, you can put them in an instance, and assessible with zero boring (to me) travel time.
Not in video games. Why? Because you can always doing something else before playing again. It is not like a movie where you have to watch from start to finish.
Plus, there are enough "mundane" to sell items, identify items, and so on ....
In fact, just look at games like WoW, Diablo, LoL, and all the successful lobby games .... totally no travel time, no "mundane" to offset the exciting. It shows that no one "needs" the mundane. You may want the mundane, but don't assume everyone "needs" it.
well, you do not like the successful lobby games, does not mean that others don't. Secondly, playing a long time is not the only measure of success. I would prefer 10 hours of very fun than 100 hours of mediocre adventure. Having said that, players spend years on lobby games like Diablo and LoL (apparently not you).
Now I never said no one likes the mundane or they shouldn't have it (btw, i love anchovies, you need to use another example, like black olives). I am just pointing out some does not like "boring" (to them) slow travel in games, which is a voice very much lacking in this thread.
In fact, if you look at this thread only, one may think people want to just walk around in their video games, which I think is the opposite to the preference of the majority.
As you often say, developers will develop what the market wants.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Of course. And that is why there is a huge selection of fun games. And that is also why i don't have to tolerate even little things I don't like in games, because i can always vote with my feet.
It is not like i need to suffer slow travel if i want to play a video game.
I agree with the OP, however, there has to be different game design elements to give an incentive for long/epic travel. I think this is a good direction for developers to focus on.
Adventure/Questing Gameplay
I believe that questing should be redefined and redesigned to a point where they're not errand quests that are pointless and meaningless. Why not go on an adventure instead? An adventure is a quest that incorporates 'epic' travel and makes it more interesting. It would be cross zone. Let's say you get a quest in a zone called the "Riverlands' and you and your group accepted to kill a named mob in a military base that is housed in some ruins in the jungle south of you.
Let's say you and your group have to travel through 3 different zones which is about an hour or two on gameplay depending on lack of wipes. So the sequence of traveling zones would be this: Riverlands>Gnoll Hills>Red Barrens>Noxvine Jungle.
While on your trek to the ruins a spy of the named mob sends messengers to warn of a bounty on his head. This could cause 1 of two 'if then statements'. 1. If you make it to the jungle within a certain amount of time the named mob stays and defends him self. or 2. If you don't make it to the jungle in a certain amount of time then the named mob has a chance to escape. This could make things interesting. Allow different triggered events on your way there and allow certain wave of mobs to come and stop you as well as traps along the way.
Dynamic Content for Epic Travel - a Different way to choose.
This will compliment the above section I have described. While you and your party are trekking to get this named mob killed, what if on your way there, there is a town that you stop at because it sells reagents super cheap and as a banker there. This small town is a great rest stop instead of going to a larger city miles down the road. However, a zone event occurs and players failed in another zone at a zone event in which a company of orcs are on their way to raid and pilliage that town you hold dear. So then you and your group has a choice. 1. Continue the quest at hand or 2. Defend the town and forget the quest at hand or 3. Defend the town and continue the quest at hand running the risk of the the named mob to escape. As a group you'd weigh what is worth more and what you should do.
Some things players may have to think about while making this decision. Will others players defend that town while we finish our adventure? Can we put our trust in other players to care? For example purposes let's say the group decides to defend the town because if the orcs win that town is occupied by orc NPC's for 2-3 weeks before you can attempt to take the town back over again. As you succeed in to defending your town, what if you get massive benefits and rewards for defending that town and perhaps a title only you can have.
However, the named mob from the jungle has escaped and went somewhere else. Technically your adventure failed. But that's fine. Your group still got a reward to defend the town. Can you still choose and hunt down the named mob. Sure why not? Would it be a more of a challenge to find him? Absolutely. If you find him will you get a reward? Absolutely!
Conclusion
As you can see this type of gameplay would bring back the immersion factor and have a reason for epic travel in games. It would also enhance the choice of gameplay. That would be the whole point in your choice. This is a great feature to influence the world around you as well. Instead of having a interior dungeon crawl persay it would be an exterior wilderness crawl in a way.
Now on fast travel. I think there should be fast travel to a certain extent. Wizard/Druid ports, other secret ports if you find hidden quests for it ect. I don't think fast travel should be the norm but should be there in spurts.
You are describing a quest, an adventure, and it has nothing to do with slow travel.
A dev can simply implemented this by when a player click on fast travel, there is some chance that this "travel adventure" spawn, and the party is dropped into this adventure.
There is little reason to walk 10 min to get to this interesting part ... if the walking in wilderness is not fun for the player.
After a while I don't respond to it. It's the same rehash everytime. Not even a worth to reply back. It's like its apart of a wow cult lol
As EQ is now, yes, any player can fast travel, but it is still limited. It is nothing like open map, click spot, be there, like GW2 and their waypoints.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Eq was not just slow travel. There were ways around it.
The goal to get an immersive game (IMO) is the complete package , not just one missing "old school" travel feature, but a game that completes itself with many features..Such as ..
1 A rather tough Death penalty This by itself forces players to work together be as much as in Death as in Life
2 Tough Travel routes, When careful planning is needed to get to Point B
3 A solid grouping feature..With this in the game friends are made, friends that will later help you out with both the above Points.
4. All the bells and whistles from todays modern Graphics and Sound helps out ALOT, at 2014 we should expect some standard here and it's also the one Point in MMO's that is actually better and will only get better, naturally
5. Setting is important , Not everyone likes a Classic Dungeons and Dragons setting etc etc
6 THe concept of a World vs GAME, for some this is important to get fully immersed.. If to many gamey features are present that directly reminds you that this is a PC game it will also be harder to take the game serious.. Not that anyone will forget that they are playing a game regardless of setting or how the game is made, but just making it easier to not be reminded as much makes it more immersive..
So how do you make travel interesting nit just the first time but the 20th time as well. I'm not saying it can't be done i just don't know how they would do it.