BUT if there is , wich in most cases with old EQ , the travel ment that you could finally see some other parts of a land , It was a milestone , you finally gathered enough experience to "maybe" survive a long journey and see distant lands , It made the World seem ALOT bigger , because travel from your starter Town to some other distant lands should not be taken ligthly.. I served as a FEATURE to meet others and brought players together in a way that is NOT present at ALL in modern games.
Sadly this feature will NEVER see the light of day anymore, as much as it saddens me , I have accepted this and moved on.:)
This is already in many games like SKYRIM and WOW. You need to walk ONCE before instant travel is available. I don't see why a player need to walk twice.
And a big world is not necessary more fun (to me, at least). Here is my second complaint. Don't make a huge landscape with nothing or just random wolves. That is boring. That is one reason i don't play SKYRIM .. too much walking (even first time) on boring landscape. Take the interesting parts out and make it convenient.
And the worst offenders are the boat (or whatever vehicle) rides .... nothing to do, and just wait ... i may as well watch tv.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I find the travel in eq was usually boring and got a putt every time i could.
Yeh .. very boring to me too. EQ just have too much down-time. Luckily (for me), no modern game will force that on players. At worst, there will be an option to skip the boring stuff. Even SKYRIM has instant travel.
If travel was exciting/fun/whatever America would be the thinnest country in the world as we took up fun and exciting hobbies like cross country running/skiing, bicycling, and similar.
This is about video games not IRL.
I'm sorry for the off topic.....but travelling isn't immersive or fun???? America isn't into cross country running/skiing, bicycling, and similar?????
There are multiple websites, books and magazines all dedicated to those specific topics which have millions of users.
The United States is the archetype for fun, immersive and exciting travel. There are millions upon millions who travel for vacation every single year. The Grand Canyon has over 5 million visitors per year. Thousands take multi-day hikes within its boundaries - and there would be more if there wasn't a permitting system limiting the numbers.
Millions of people from Europe travel to this country and rent an RV simply to 'travel' in the U.S.
Thousands hike, or try to hike the Appalachian trail every year. Thousands hike or try to hike the Pacific Crest Trail every year.
The term 'road trip' has become well established in the American lexicon as a term synonymous with 'fun and excitement'.
REI made a multi-million dollar business around people who love to travel. How many travel sites are there on the web? Expedia, Priceline, Orbitz and TripAdvisor have all become multi-million dollar businesses, based solely on travel.
A short list of just a few books about travel in America, all of which have become classics or at least highly respected books about US travel.
If you don't think Vegas, New York, San Fransisco, LA or the entire state of Florida are exciting travel destinations, then you should do a little research.
But if you don't think the US is about travel, I suggest you start your research here:
Travel not exciting or fun in America. Worst statement of ignorance ever.
But on topic. If you don't think epic travel should be a part of your fantasy mmo; blame every fantasy novel ever written - starting with the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and end with A Song of Ice and Fire.
I think when you look at old school MMOs many of them had really poorly designed content in regards to travel.
In EvE Online the relationship of travel to the content makes sense in a holistic manner. In EQ1 travel was a pointless and stupid burden when considered in the context of the content of the game.
To address the poor design the developer took the easy way out and dumbed down the games.
The problem I have with people looking back with nostalgia to many old school MMOs is that they, generally, completely fail to identify the parts of the games that were in fact poorly designed.
Both sides are right. The games have been dumbed down and made more shallow so many former players are identifying and issue. But the devs were also "right" the way travel was designed to integrate into the EQ-lineage of games was made poorly and needed to be addressed.
But you see the devs could not easily redesign the EQ-lineage formula to make this work, because it is too foundational of an issue so they just cut it.
Look the "end game" of EQ devolved into raid-based dungeon runs. This occurred to such an extent that weekly schedules were made, system like DKP invented. This was the THE major concern of the players. Things like pointless empty time traveling the same road over and over are simply contradictory to this model.
Now compare this to EvE Online where the "neighborhood" of space you are current in is a fundamental aspect of the current content of the game. The amount of time and how hard it is to get from Alliance X's "neighborhood" to Alliance Y's "meighborhood" is a fundamental concern of the game. And failing to get from X to Y is part of the game. Its perfectly fine to fail to do that, you can still "play the game".
But if you failed to travel the Planes of Power in EQ you might as well have simply stopped playing the game. Progression blocked. Game over man, Game over. Additionally the time it required to get from whereever you were to the Planes of Power served absolutely NO GAME PURPOSE.
The time it takes to get from Alliance X to Alliance Y in EvE Online DOES SERVER A GAME PURPOSE. In fact it serves many. Not only is there a time burden, but there are other concerns such as will their allies see you traveling there? How will you resupply guns and missiles? There are both mechanical and logistical concerns to the current location you are in EvE versus the location you wish to go to achieve some goal.
That is not true in the EQ-Lineage of games. The location of whatever dungeon you the devs have currently assigned you in your rabbit run through the game is COMPLETELY ARBITRARY.
Yet many people who find issue with today's MMORPGs. Focus on the correct conclusion that the games have been dumbed down, but then make the completely incorrrect conclusion that the previous implementation was good.
So you people must move forward and realize that when a game is designed such that important or key aspects of content can be placed in ARBITRARY places in the world and there is not functional difference between them, that your game has a trivial travel design and world design.
This is what you must understand. Absolutely must understand. The EQ world was extremely trivialized. The only reason people don't get this is that IMPOSED TRAVEL TIMES MASKED THE TRIVIALITY.
DO NOT ask for the triviality to go back to being masked and hidden via sleight of mind. Instead DEMAND a meaty and real design of a world and the consequences of location.
DO NOT DEMAND ILLUSIONS. DEMAND SUBSTANCE. Please.
All the ease-of-use features introduced mostly by WoW (fast travel, quest markers, group finders etc) have progressively turned MMOs into lobby snooze fests.
You can still have fun with them but they're less engaging I find and they definitely don't grab you like they used to in the long run, I don't think anyone will argue that.
We still have open world games that have some sort of immersive qualities but they're mostly indie games, either filled with bugs or run by skeletal dev teams incapable of keeping up with the players' demands.
All the ease-of-use features introduced mostly by WoW (fast travel, quest markers, group finders etc) have progressively turned MMOs into lobby snooze fests.
You can still have fun with them but they're less engaging I find and they definitely don't grab you like they used to in the long run, I don't think anyone will argue that.
Yes i will.
WoW "grabbed" me a lot better than EQ precisely because it is a better game, not just pretending to be a world.
Lobby games let me jump right into fun gameplay and eliminate many of the boring (to me) parts (like looking for a group, walking the same route again and again ...).
I would not play a game without fast travel (or better yet, just a lobby to let me choose my game modes), LFD/LFR again.
The problem is the causal crowd started playing mmo. They would rather have an easy ,lack in depth, everyone wins, fragfest, no down time mmorpg. As seen in planetside 2. People that don't like mmorpgs playing that genre. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Mmos need to start making all their products niche again, but with AAA standards. Stop catering to people that want a glorified lobby arena match, a chat with avatars, their hands to be held and getting rewarded for everything, those that want a mmo to be a single player experience or anything in between.
I think in some games traveling can be boring, but for instance in Darkfall online the world was massive and you had to pay attention to your surroundings or risk losing your stuff.
Sandbox needs to come back in full force(Gladly its starting to) but in my opinion with modern day combat, either action combat or fps style.
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Pie_Rat
All the ease-of-use features introduced mostly by WoW (fast travel, quest markers, group finders etc) have progressively turned MMOs into lobby snooze fests.
You can still have fun with them but they're less engaging I find and they definitely don't grab you like they used to in the long run, I don't think anyone will argue that.
Yes i will.
WoW "grabbed" me a lot better than EQ precisely because it is a better game, not just pretending to be a world.
Lobby games let me jump right into fun gameplay and eliminate many of the boring (to me) parts (like looking for a group, walking the same route again and again ...).
I would not play a game without fast travel (or better yet, just a lobby to let me choose my game modes), LFD/LFR again.
To me what you are describing is not a mmo but a lobby based game with leveling elements and loot, like borderlands. You forego what makes an mmorpg a world for instant gratification and point blankly, in my opinion; people like yourself is why we have had such a stagnant mmo market for the past 7 years at least AAA title wise.
Agree, people playing mmorpg (again emphasis on RPG) and arguing against elements that make an RPG what it is, long lived characters, long term objectives, immersion, virtual worlds, travelling without minigames every 5 seconds to keep the limited attention spam/lack if imagination. Whats worse is arguing against MMORPG in a forum that is all about MMORPG. They just don't get it, its all about me me me 'I like this game style', 'I expect this', 'I don't need people', 'entertain me or else' They don't want virtual communities, they want stimulation. All fine but got absolutely nothing to do with mmoRPG. Its funny how WOW is shown as a model that works for these people, and yet WOW fans swear blind that their virtual world is as good as its ever been,
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
All the ease-of-use features introduced mostly by WoW (fast travel, quest markers, group finders etc) have progressively turned MMOs into lobby snooze fests.
You can still have fun with them but they're less engaging I find and they definitely don't grab you like they used to in the long run, I don't think anyone will argue that.
Yes i will.
WoW "grabbed" me a lot better than EQ precisely because it is a better game, not just pretending to be a world.
Lobby games let me jump right into fun gameplay and eliminate many of the boring (to me) parts (like looking for a group, walking the same route again and again ...).
I would not play a game without fast travel (or better yet, just a lobby to let me choose my game modes), LFD/LFR again.
To me what you are describing is not a mmo but a lobby based game with leveling elements and loot, like borderlands. You forego what makes an mmorpg a world for instant gratification and point blankly, in my opinion; people like yourself is why we have had such a stagnant mmo market for the past 7 years at least AAA title wise.
Precisely. Why do you think I got back to the genre after quitting EQ many many years ago? That is because MMOs are now lobby games with leveling elements, loot, and don't forget, solo content.
And yes, i forgo what makes a MMORPG a world .. because i don't think that "world-ness" adds much fun for me. In fact, when WOW starts to take that away (no more open world pvp, more instances, LFD, ...), it becomes a better game to me.
its all about me me me 'I like this game style', 'I expect this', 'I don't need people', 'entertain me or else' They don't want virtual communities, they want stimulation. All fine but got absolutely nothing to do with mmoRPG. Its funny how WOW is shown as a model that works for these people, and yet WOW fans swear blind that their virtual world is as good as its ever been,
Of course it is about "me me me". We are talking about entertainment here, not world hunger.
Now, you said "WoW is shown as a model that works for these people", and you also said "got absolutely nothing to do with mmoRPG". Are you saying WOW has nothing to do with mmoRPG?
Oh .. i don't know where you get "WOW fans swear blind that their virtual world is as good as its ever been"
I think it is more like WoW fans swear blind that their game is as good (to them of course) as its ever been and they don't even need a virtual world.
Its interesting, your not into MMORPG, prefer Lobby games etc, and now find WOW appealing. e.g more about community than mememe. It has been argued for a long time that Blizzard changed the game gradually over the time to move from being an MMORPG to a form of single player/Coorg hybrid because there was more profit to be had - and the proof is in the pudding, it is appealing to players like yourself. Pity they fucked over the existing long term player base who enjoyed a more cohesive RGP virtual world. Edit, i should add, i dont blame solo players like yourself for this, Blizzard just tried to be all things to all men - generalise everything, specialise nothing.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Its interesting, your not into MMORPG, prefer Lobby games etc, and now find WOW appealing. It has been argued for a long time that Blizzard changed the game gradually over the time to move from being an MMORPG to a single player/Coorg hybrid because there was more profit to be had - and the proof is in the pudding, it is appealing to players like yourself.
absolutely. In fact, here is my "MMORPG" history ....
- kingdom of drakkar ... a precusor to MMO
- UO beta ... hate the horrible clicking on rock to up mining type gameplay, and rampant PK griefing
- EQ for a while ... got sick of camping .. decide that is not a game, but work .. .so quit
then comes WoW ... finally someone would make a MMORPG a game. Play that for years. Quit after beginning of Catalysm because Raid is just too much work/commitment and not fun. They came up with LFR .. raids with convenience ... went back to play the deadwing raid .. then quit again since the combat is getting stale.
So yeah ... if it is not for the more game-like feature of WoW, i would not have been back to MMORPGs. And now there are games that are even closer to co-op lobby games with fun combat (like Marvel Heroes).
Yup and there we agree although you never came back to a mmorpg, its not a mmorpg anymore. Thats part of the confusion isnt it, people call games [..]RPG when they are not, which is unfair on those thinking they are getting a [...]RPG. Maybe that's the root cause of most arguments.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Yup and there we agree although you never came back to a mmorpg, its not a mmorpg anymore. Thats part of the confusion isnt it, people call games [..]RPG when they are not, which is unfair on those thinking they are getting a [...]RPG. Maybe that's the root cause of most arguments.
Correct .. i would never "go back" to something i do not like. The reason i "come back" to the MMORPG genre is precisely because it has evolves beyond its original intent. Otherwise, I would just play other types of games.
And yes, there is plenty of debate of what is, what is not, and what will be MMORPGs. (Not to mention the debate about what is MMO .. and how they are same or different from MMORPG).
Originally posted by Bladestrom Yup and there we agree although you never came back to a mmorpg, its not a mmorpg anymore. Thats part of the confusion isnt it, people call games [..]RPG when they are not, which is unfair on those thinking they are getting a [...]RPG. Maybe that's the root cause of most arguments.
On these forums for sure.
When attempting to communicate with others it is helpful when everyone speaks the same language, otherwise things are reduced to hand signals and grunts; which is useless on a an internet forum.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by Bladestrom Yup and there we agree although you never came back to a mmorpg, its not a mmorpg anymore. Thats part of the confusion isnt it, people call games [..]RPG when they are not, which is unfair on those thinking they are getting a [...]RPG. Maybe that's the root cause of most arguments.
On these forums for sure.
When attempting to communicate with others it is helpful when everyone speaks the same language, otherwise things are reduced to hand signals and grunts; which is useless on a an internet forum.
Only if the purpose is communicating, as opposed to ranting, grand-standing, debating, and a thousand other purposes.
Some of the issues discussed on this forum (heck, take this "death of immersion" rant) has been rehashed many many times day in and day out. I doubt there is a real need to "communicate". It is more a cry for either approval from people with similar preferences, or debate with those who have different opinions.
Have to agree with you, OP, and I think it's simply because investors expect much larger subscription numbers than they once did. The days when a major title could target nothing much beyond the Aspergers set are long gone.
Drawing a crowd means making things comfortable for idiots. The game has to have simple play mechanics, a simple set of rules and options, and (probably) bright colors. WoW could draw a much bigger crowd than Anarchy Online or EVE, for instance, because the latter two games require the player to be capable of doing basic arithmetic and holding a thought for more than 3 seconds.
In a few years time, I expect MMOs will amount to nothing but a full screen picture of a topless elf doing jumping jacks, with a 'buy pizza' button in the corner.
I think when you look at old school MMOs many of them had really poorly designed content in regards to travel.
In EvE Online the relationship of travel to the content makes sense in a holistic manner. In EQ1 travel was a pointless and stupid burden when considered in the context of the content of the game.
To address the poor design the developer took the easy way out and dumbed down the games.
The problem I have with people looking back with nostalgia to many old school MMOs is that they, generally, completely fail to identify the parts of the games that were in fact poorly designed.
Both sides are right. The games have been dumbed down and made more shallow so many former players are identifying and issue. But the devs were also "right" the way travel was designed to integrate into the EQ-lineage of games was made poorly and needed to be addressed.
But you see the devs could not easily redesign the EQ-lineage formula to make this work, because it is too foundational of an issue so they just cut it.
Look the "end game" of EQ devolved into raid-based dungeon runs. This occurred to such an extent that weekly schedules were made, system like DKP invented. This was the THE major concern of the players. Things like pointless empty time traveling the same road over and over are simply contradictory to this model.
Now compare this to EvE Online where the "neighborhood" of space you are current in is a fundamental aspect of the current content of the game. The amount of time and how hard it is to get from Alliance X's "neighborhood" to Alliance Y's "meighborhood" is a fundamental concern of the game. And failing to get from X to Y is part of the game. Its perfectly fine to fail to do that, you can still "play the game".
But if you failed to travel the Planes of Power in EQ you might as well have simply stopped playing the game. Progression blocked. Game over man, Game over. Additionally the time it required to get from whereever you were to the Planes of Power served absolutely NO GAME PURPOSE.
The time it takes to get from Alliance X to Alliance Y in EvE Online DOES SERVER A GAME PURPOSE. In fact it serves many. Not only is there a time burden, but there are other concerns such as will their allies see you traveling there? How will you resupply guns and missiles? There are both mechanical and logistical concerns to the current location you are in EvE versus the location you wish to go to achieve some goal.
That is not true in the EQ-Lineage of games. The location of whatever dungeon you the devs have currently assigned you in your rabbit run through the game is COMPLETELY ARBITRARY.
Yet many people who find issue with today's MMORPGs. Focus on the correct conclusion that the games have been dumbed down, but then make the completely incorrrect conclusion that the previous implementation was good.
So you people must move forward and realize that when a game is designed such that important or key aspects of content can be placed in ARBITRARY places in the world and there is not functional difference between them, that your game has a trivial travel design and world design.
This is what you must understand. Absolutely must understand. The EQ world was extremely trivialized. The only reason people don't get this is that IMPOSED TRAVEL TIMES MASKED THE TRIVIALITY.
DO NOT ask for the triviality to go back to being masked and hidden via sleight of mind. Instead DEMAND a meaty and real design of a world and the consequences of location.
DO NOT DEMAND ILLUSIONS. DEMAND SUBSTANCE. Please.
An interesting point, which I'd have to concede. I would point out that were PVP to be As large a part of EQ as it is of EVE, travel would be relevant. I.e. There would be reason to take route x over route y. We would treat travel as a group adventure rather than an interlude.
that said, the travel time in EQ is a major game feature for me. Perhaps I'm settling for too little? I would be interested in traveling in EQNexts Orc infested landscape which changes with player interaction...
Comments
This is already in many games like SKYRIM and WOW. You need to walk ONCE before instant travel is available. I don't see why a player need to walk twice.
And a big world is not necessary more fun (to me, at least). Here is my second complaint. Don't make a huge landscape with nothing or just random wolves. That is boring. That is one reason i don't play SKYRIM .. too much walking (even first time) on boring landscape. Take the interesting parts out and make it convenient.
And the worst offenders are the boat (or whatever vehicle) rides .... nothing to do, and just wait ... i may as well watch tv.
I'm sorry for the off topic.....but travelling isn't immersive or fun???? America isn't into cross country running/skiing, bicycling, and similar?????
There are multiple websites, books and magazines all dedicated to those specific topics which have millions of users.
The United States is the archetype for fun, immersive and exciting travel. There are millions upon millions who travel for vacation every single year. The Grand Canyon has over 5 million visitors per year. Thousands take multi-day hikes within its boundaries - and there would be more if there wasn't a permitting system limiting the numbers.
Millions of people from Europe travel to this country and rent an RV simply to 'travel' in the U.S.
Look at how big the industry is:
https://www.ustravel.org/sites/default/files/page/2010/12/ForecastSummary.pdf
Thousands hike, or try to hike the Appalachian trail every year. Thousands hike or try to hike the Pacific Crest Trail every year.
The term 'road trip' has become well established in the American lexicon as a term synonymous with 'fun and excitement'.
REI made a multi-million dollar business around people who love to travel. How many travel sites are there on the web? Expedia, Priceline, Orbitz and TripAdvisor have all become multi-million dollar businesses, based solely on travel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travels_with_Charley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Road
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Walk_in_the_Woods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_America
A short list of just a few books about travel in America, all of which have become classics or at least highly respected books about US travel.
If you don't think Vegas, New York, San Fransisco, LA or the entire state of Florida are exciting travel destinations, then you should do a little research.
But if you don't think the US is about travel, I suggest you start your research here:
http://www.nps.gov/index.htm
Travel not exciting or fun in America. Worst statement of ignorance ever.
But on topic. If you don't think epic travel should be a part of your fantasy mmo; blame every fantasy novel ever written - starting with the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and end with A Song of Ice and Fire.
I think when you look at old school MMOs many of them had really poorly designed content in regards to travel.
In EvE Online the relationship of travel to the content makes sense in a holistic manner. In EQ1 travel was a pointless and stupid burden when considered in the context of the content of the game.
To address the poor design the developer took the easy way out and dumbed down the games.
The problem I have with people looking back with nostalgia to many old school MMOs is that they, generally, completely fail to identify the parts of the games that were in fact poorly designed.
Both sides are right. The games have been dumbed down and made more shallow so many former players are identifying and issue. But the devs were also "right" the way travel was designed to integrate into the EQ-lineage of games was made poorly and needed to be addressed.
But you see the devs could not easily redesign the EQ-lineage formula to make this work, because it is too foundational of an issue so they just cut it.
Look the "end game" of EQ devolved into raid-based dungeon runs. This occurred to such an extent that weekly schedules were made, system like DKP invented. This was the THE major concern of the players. Things like pointless empty time traveling the same road over and over are simply contradictory to this model.
Now compare this to EvE Online where the "neighborhood" of space you are current in is a fundamental aspect of the current content of the game. The amount of time and how hard it is to get from Alliance X's "neighborhood" to Alliance Y's "meighborhood" is a fundamental concern of the game. And failing to get from X to Y is part of the game. Its perfectly fine to fail to do that, you can still "play the game".
But if you failed to travel the Planes of Power in EQ you might as well have simply stopped playing the game. Progression blocked. Game over man, Game over. Additionally the time it required to get from whereever you were to the Planes of Power served absolutely NO GAME PURPOSE.
The time it takes to get from Alliance X to Alliance Y in EvE Online DOES SERVER A GAME PURPOSE. In fact it serves many. Not only is there a time burden, but there are other concerns such as will their allies see you traveling there? How will you resupply guns and missiles? There are both mechanical and logistical concerns to the current location you are in EvE versus the location you wish to go to achieve some goal.
That is not true in the EQ-Lineage of games. The location of whatever dungeon you the devs have currently assigned you in your rabbit run through the game is COMPLETELY ARBITRARY.
Yet many people who find issue with today's MMORPGs. Focus on the correct conclusion that the games have been dumbed down, but then make the completely incorrrect conclusion that the previous implementation was good.
So you people must move forward and realize that when a game is designed such that important or key aspects of content can be placed in ARBITRARY places in the world and there is not functional difference between them, that your game has a trivial travel design and world design.
This is what you must understand. Absolutely must understand. The EQ world was extremely trivialized. The only reason people don't get this is that IMPOSED TRAVEL TIMES MASKED THE TRIVIALITY.
DO NOT ask for the triviality to go back to being masked and hidden via sleight of mind. Instead DEMAND a meaty and real design of a world and the consequences of location.
DO NOT DEMAND ILLUSIONS. DEMAND SUBSTANCE. Please.
All the ease-of-use features introduced mostly by WoW (fast travel, quest markers, group finders etc) have progressively turned MMOs into lobby snooze fests.
You can still have fun with them but they're less engaging I find and they definitely don't grab you like they used to in the long run, I don't think anyone will argue that.
We still have open world games that have some sort of immersive qualities but they're mostly indie games, either filled with bugs or run by skeletal dev teams incapable of keeping up with the players' demands.
Yes i will.
WoW "grabbed" me a lot better than EQ precisely because it is a better game, not just pretending to be a world.
Lobby games let me jump right into fun gameplay and eliminate many of the boring (to me) parts (like looking for a group, walking the same route again and again ...).
I would not play a game without fast travel (or better yet, just a lobby to let me choose my game modes), LFD/LFR again.
The problem is the causal crowd started playing mmo. They would rather have an easy ,lack in depth, everyone wins, fragfest, no down time mmorpg. As seen in planetside 2. People that don't like mmorpgs playing that genre. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Mmos need to start making all their products niche again, but with AAA standards. Stop catering to people that want a glorified lobby arena match, a chat with avatars, their hands to be held and getting rewarded for everything, those that want a mmo to be a single player experience or anything in between.
I think in some games traveling can be boring, but for instance in Darkfall online the world was massive and you had to pay attention to your surroundings or risk losing your stuff.
Sandbox needs to come back in full force(Gladly its starting to) but in my opinion with modern day combat, either action combat or fps style.
To me what you are describing is not a mmo but a lobby based game with leveling elements and loot, like borderlands. You forego what makes an mmorpg a world for instant gratification and point blankly, in my opinion; people like yourself is why we have had such a stagnant mmo market for the past 7 years at least AAA title wise.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Precisely. Why do you think I got back to the genre after quitting EQ many many years ago? That is because MMOs are now lobby games with leveling elements, loot, and don't forget, solo content.
And yes, i forgo what makes a MMORPG a world .. because i don't think that "world-ness" adds much fun for me. In fact, when WOW starts to take that away (no more open world pvp, more instances, LFD, ...), it becomes a better game to me.
Of course it is about "me me me". We are talking about entertainment here, not world hunger.
Now, you said "WoW is shown as a model that works for these people", and you also said "got absolutely nothing to do with mmoRPG". Are you saying WOW has nothing to do with mmoRPG?
Oh .. i don't know where you get "WOW fans swear blind that their virtual world is as good as its ever been"
I think it is more like WoW fans swear blind that their game is as good (to them of course) as its ever been and they don't even need a virtual world.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
absolutely. In fact, here is my "MMORPG" history ....
- kingdom of drakkar ... a precusor to MMO
- UO beta ... hate the horrible clicking on rock to up mining type gameplay, and rampant PK griefing
- EQ for a while ... got sick of camping .. decide that is not a game, but work .. .so quit
then comes WoW ... finally someone would make a MMORPG a game. Play that for years. Quit after beginning of Catalysm because Raid is just too much work/commitment and not fun. They came up with LFR .. raids with convenience ... went back to play the deadwing raid .. then quit again since the combat is getting stale.
So yeah ... if it is not for the more game-like feature of WoW, i would not have been back to MMORPGs. And now there are games that are even closer to co-op lobby games with fun combat (like Marvel Heroes).
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Correct .. i would never "go back" to something i do not like. The reason i "come back" to the MMORPG genre is precisely because it has evolves beyond its original intent. Otherwise, I would just play other types of games.
And yes, there is plenty of debate of what is, what is not, and what will be MMORPGs. (Not to mention the debate about what is MMO .. and how they are same or different from MMORPG).
On these forums for sure.
When attempting to communicate with others it is helpful when everyone speaks the same language, otherwise things are reduced to hand signals and grunts; which is useless on a an internet forum.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Only if the purpose is communicating, as opposed to ranting, grand-standing, debating, and a thousand other purposes.
Some of the issues discussed on this forum (heck, take this "death of immersion" rant) has been rehashed many many times day in and day out. I doubt there is a real need to "communicate". It is more a cry for either approval from people with similar preferences, or debate with those who have different opinions.
Have to agree with you, OP, and I think it's simply because investors expect much larger subscription numbers than they once did. The days when a major title could target nothing much beyond the Aspergers set are long gone.
Drawing a crowd means making things comfortable for idiots. The game has to have simple play mechanics, a simple set of rules and options, and (probably) bright colors. WoW could draw a much bigger crowd than Anarchy Online or EVE, for instance, because the latter two games require the player to be capable of doing basic arithmetic and holding a thought for more than 3 seconds.
In a few years time, I expect MMOs will amount to nothing but a full screen picture of a topless elf doing jumping jacks, with a 'buy pizza' button in the corner.
An interesting point, which I'd have to concede. I would point out that were PVP to be As large a part of EQ as it is of EVE, travel would be relevant. I.e. There would be reason to take route x over route y. We would treat travel as a group adventure rather than an interlude.
that said, the travel time in EQ is a major game feature for me. Perhaps I'm settling for too little? I would be interested in traveling in EQNexts Orc infested landscape which changes with player interaction...