All I see here is a big stinking pile of jealousy, and entitlement.
This game will take 5 years to complete from the kick starter date, at a minimum, accept it and stop posting nonsense.
You guys seem to be able to read but not comprehend, you want to play a game now that wont be finished for probably another 2 years and have not the patience to wait for it.
And by the way I'm not a backer, as a mater of fact I have never backed even a single kick starter game. But I know business, and project management. And the size and scope of this game is staggering.
Be patient.
The issue I would have if I pulled the trigger and backed SC two years ago (thanks SWTOR for teaching me that lesson) is that the Kickstarter stated an estimated delivery date of 2014 not double or triple the time putting the release into 2016/2017+. So one or more of the follow is true:
CR lied about the games progress before the KS campaign to influence funding.
CR lied about 20 million was needed to finance the game to completion and launch.
3. CR lied about more money to achieve a new mark of Stretch Goals could make it faster
4. CR lied about stretch goals not having influence in the final game, when trying to say that feature creep would have no impact, because things would come after release.
5. CR lied about LTI
6. CR lied about wall and the website not been an ad tool, exclusive for backers
7. CR lied about progress of things...
8. CR lied about his popularity...
...
and the list keeps going on...
It's a bible of false advertising in a high-profile crowd-funding. FTC have a department just looking to crowd-funding and were already to the throats of low-profile crowd-funding.
In no way Star Citizen will escape from them, because it sets a standard.
Tomorrow all the scammers can just saying that "but I am doing here, look, it just will take more 2, 3... 10 years" and "all things, and earlier lies can be forgiven and refunds are ok to be denied"...
Total bs...
FTC won't let it go.
That is the messiah of the Game Industry? That is the man that is going to save us all from the "evil"?
/facepalm
Seriously... they crossed all the lines possible in how to disrespect ALL customer laws of United States.
Originally posted by Elsabolts OK then why not give refunds to anyone who wants there money back, seems the right thing to do ?
Because the money people gave them to develop the game has most probably already been invested in developing said game. And because there is no proof that they don't fulfill what they promised. You "bought" them rights to develop a game - if you have proof they don't deliver what you paid for, prove it in court.
Not to mention if they offer refund they'd most probably have to rework their stretch goals.
PS: Personally, I think Kickstarter is stupid.
Kickstarter wasn't stupid for Palmer Luckey
"Young inventor Palmer Luckey couldn't have got his gaming project, Rift, off the ground without $2.4m given to him via the crowdfunding website. Now his backers are angry he's sold out to the social media giant".
And yet businesses are not subject to FTC attacks just because someone gave someone else money. Somebody is copypasta a lot of text hoping to make some kind of argument, but in the end its still the same deal. Tax deductibility is not relevant either.
There is no FTC case. There is no fraud case. There is absolutely nothing.
If there were, then someone should initiate investigations into Derek Smart. He seems to have a $1 million dollars and an unfinished 3 year old Early Access game that will likely never see launch day. Seems like he should put some time and money into that project and spend less time trying to muscle in on other people's livelihoods.
Why, at any time he could be facing fraud charges and an FTC colonoscopy when some butthurt internet person starts spamming messageboards.
So are you saying this FTC lawyer doesn't know what they are talking about and you being a MMORPG.com lawyer are correct?
"The Federal Trade Commission makes and enforces rules to protect consumers from unfair or deceptive business practices, and its consumer protection principles apply to crowdfunding sites in the same way they apply to things like catalogs, direct mail and TV commercials, according to Helen Wong, an attorney with the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection. Sellers can't make deceptive representations, and they have to fulfill promises they've made to consumers, for starters."
Originally posted by Elsabolts OK then why not give refunds to anyone who wants there money back, seems the right thing to do ?
Because the money people gave them to develop the game has most probably already been invested in developing said game. And because there is no proof that they don't fulfill what they promised. You "bought" them rights to develop a game - if you have proof they don't deliver what you paid for, prove it in court.
Not to mention if they offer refund they'd most probably have to rework their stretch goals.
PS: Personally, I think Kickstarter is stupid.
THERE IS!
They promised a game for a period, and associated more money to deliver that game in that period. Later, near of 20 million dollars, associated more money, again, to a faster release. And also said that additions wouldn't delay more the game. And now they say that it will. That they know that. Obvious! They are so smart! (with exclamation and everything)
They LIED. Many times. Not just related with this, but even with many other sales offers that they did.
And raised the scope of the game to a point that they don't know how or when to deliver:
"as it’s hard to predict exact dates in open development, especially in the stages that still involve R&D, unless you build in large time buffers."
And promised just a delayed "near of what was promised":
"It should be a win / win: you get to play a more limited version early, a version that is closer to the original goals, but you know the bigger, fuller featured version is coming – and the best bit is that you get it all for your initial pledge!"
Freaking BS! Biggest BS of the history!
They made a big letter to convince people to let them go and do all the research necessary to see if they would be able to complete the game.
They are begging for people to do not go to the court, when basically knowing that they are already knocking the door.
Indeed, I have no problem with being skeptical but some people are just whinging and being impatient. The ltter looks to me answered on some of what people are worried about without going the ridiculous route the Smart troll would want.
Now is the time to sit back, shut up and be patient and let time tell whats what.
That has to do with the legal responsibilities that any company that goes to crowd-funding must to have, regardless what they are doing.
And CIG made deceptive claims after finished his crowd-funding campaign. They kept doing that associated with a new stretch goal. They LIED in the face of people to get more money. They made you sign a deal and then changed that deal only for their own sake and not for the sake of ALL individuals involved and DENY refunds based in a broken deal and false advertising.
Can't you see the implications of that? A high-profile crowd-funding of a game is setting a dangerous standard and thinking that govs/feds won't act to avoid that ALL crowd-funding campaigns start to make this bs, based on Star Citizen... start to scam people around and saying that are going to release something, just wait, telling stories, or "don't worry you have this piece of the puzzle that I promised you"... and so on...
This is bs! FTC are going to their throats and Roberts apparently did that in purpose, because he can't be THAT naive!
It's like he's asking "please come soon so I have a good excuse to leave". It's like he knows that can't deliver and the market won't wait, and need an excuse to leave and put the guilty on someone else. THAT's what he is doing. OR, he is the most naive person of all times, which, just looking to his history on this own project, clearly he is not.
Deal my behind, they wanted to make a game and started it small in KS thinking they wouldn't get near the funds they did and as the project grew along with the support of those backing so did the project...blablabla it all there in the letter.
General rule of thumb when backing a KS thing, anything can happen so consider it lost moneny like a night or 3 drinking binge.
As far as I am aware what they talked about in KS is still going to happen it is just taking longer due to the success of the backing, wipe your tears the game isn't dead yet.
Seriously whats going on now is baby tantrums because "I want it NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!".... If the game does go bust I am sure someone out there will start a lawsuit as it has happened with some other game or KS not long ago.
Your precedents will be made in court not in forums or by the Smart troll.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Oh! Sure it is. And I have the impression that Roberts asked for that.
LoL I will be happy when we get the fps module etc so I can come back here and lol hard.
No doubt you will get your next broken tech demo... but the game as a whole, is dead. FTC is coming.
You mean the DSMART inspired pyramid scheme complaint...lol yea good luck with that.
I have no idea about pyramid scheme. Its just false advertising.
Except is isn't as the due date was estimated and like most kickstarters the more money that rolls in, the more goals are met, the more the estimate goes out the window. Hell they even stopped those because peeps where going bonkers with that so more proof to the FTC they are doing what must be done (even reducing income from goal frenzies) to make sure this game happens.
FtC will investigate and not find an empty basement with a CIG logo but see something that has grown quite large with many people hard at work to delver the "dream".
Take Trion for example with Defiance it was b2p and then it went f2p and myself as someone that "bought" the game got pretty much bupkiss as far as I am concerned yet they're still there....
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
The point being that people are misconstruing government legal boilerplate and by putting it in the context of this argument, are attempting to make some kind of court case without having the faintest notion of how the law works in this area. The byline of the article being used as "evidence" is:
Crowdfunding is hot right now, but a lack of regulation might leave backers at risk of falling prey to a swindle.
There is a "lack of regulation", which means that the bureaucracy in question would dearly love to expand its authority but so far has no forward guidance. The legislature has not acted on this yet, and their own top bureaucrats have not issued regulations (which carry the same force of law that legislative acts do). The specific quote in question actually disproves the claims being made against Star Citizen:
The Federal Trade Commission makes and enforces rules to protect consumers from unfair or deceptive business practices, and its consumer protection principles apply to crowdfunding sites in the same way they apply to things like catalogs, direct mail and TV commercials, according to Helen Wong, an attorney with the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection. Sellers can't make deceptive representations, and they have to fulfill promises they've made to consumers, for starters.
This is standard spokesperson boilerplate for "everyone has to obey the same rules", which pertains mainly to physical goods and services premised on an agreed remuneration. To make the argument that Star Citizen's development is a "service" is not a claim that will likely stand the test of court. At least not without the legislative and/or administrative law authorities promulgating specific regulations regarding its disposition in contract law.
And even then such a dubious claim would probably face years of litigation and may still be defeated in the end. That is likely why the ever-avaricious government bureaucracy has been hesitant to jump on this new area. The administrative side is probably punting the ball to the legislature, which of course has most of its laws written by people in the existing industry. But that is another issue.
Also, there seems to be some confusion about civil and criminal law. These are separate proceedings which nevertheless often intertwine when someone is on a witchhunt. Nobody does a good business witchhunt like the FTC, smashing underdogs and ever speaking truth for power.
That is why this is such a vital undertaking. In the past large projects were tightly controlled affairs where pools of capital were controlled by the few, through corporations and a network of banking interests. With the explosion in communication thanks to the internet, people are getting together to get things done their own way. This is very threatening to those who used to have a monopoly on funding.
If Star Citizen succeeds and can avoid being destroyed by the greedy and avaricious control freaks, it will pave the way for a new business model. To see people missing the big picture over petty personal issues is disappointing.
Oh! Sure it is. And I have the impression that Roberts asked for that.
LoL I will be happy when we get the fps module etc so I can come back here and lol hard.
No doubt you will get your next broken tech demo... but the game as a whole, is dead. FTC is coming.
You mean the DSMART inspired pyramid scheme complaint...lol yea good luck with that.
I have no idea about pyramid scheme. Its just false advertising.
Except is isn't as the due date was estimated and like most kickstarters the more money that rolls in, the more goals are met, the more the estimate goes out the window. Hell they even stopped those because peeps where going bonkers with that so more proof to the FTC they are doing what must be done (even reducing income from goal frenzies) to make sure this game happens.
FtC will investigate and not find an empty basement with a CIG logo but see something that has grown quite large with many people hard at work to delver the "dream".
Customer were advertised something and then expanded in such way, that implicates in a delivery date, that according with them, they are not capable to give, even for short-term deliveries.
The company also false-advertised other sales offers during its funding campaign, which continues forever, despite been fully funded to deliver the game "faster" earlier (per their ad).
Customers are not obligated to accept. They are not obligated to stay. And CIG denies and denied refunds.
They have all the basis that they need and they will act to do not set a dangerous precedence (a negative one) for crowd-funding to be exploited by scammers (true scammers can just can start to produce shows and 'demos' made by a guys in a basement and never release anything and just keep saying that is doing forever, while selling more vaporware... even if CIG has good faith, which is hard to believe after so many lies... FTC won't let it go to do not set the precedence).
If everything is ok, as you said, CIG still will have to publicize a clear refund police to give the money to anyone who wants, as well as pay some penalties by having tried to dumb-down the customer basis and denied rights that they, as a company, have the legal responsibility to understand. Just that, will kill the project. They don't need to be true scammers. Their project is dead. It's just a matter of time.
Enjoy a few more tech demos. That's all that you will got.
The Federal Trade Commission makes and enforces rules to protect consumers from unfair or deceptive business practices, and its consumer protection principles apply to crowdfunding sites in the same way they apply to things like catalogs, direct mail and TV commercials, according to Helen Wong, an attorney with the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection. Sellers can't make deceptive representations, and they have to fulfill promises they've made to consumers, for starters.
This is standard spokesperson boilerplate for "everyone has to obey the same rules", which pertains mainly to physical goods and services premised on an agreed remuneration. To make the argument that Star Citizen's development is a "service" is not a claim that will likely stand the test of court.
Nice speech. Now call FTC. They have a department taking care of crowd-funding and are already taking actions.
Don't play the card "but we are working on it", that does not work in that way.
They are not dumb. They are looking into it... Wait and see.
But nice speech. Almost sound legit. I stopped in the above. It was a joke right? Tell me that it was.
Oh! Sure it is. And I have the impression that Roberts asked for that.
LoL I will be happy when we get the fps module etc so I can come back here and lol hard.
No doubt you will get your next broken tech demo... but the game as a whole, is dead. FTC is coming.
You mean the DSMART inspired pyramid scheme complaint...lol yea good luck with that.
I have no idea about pyramid scheme. Its just false advertising.
Except is isn't as the due date was estimated and like most kickstarters the more money that rolls in, the more goals are met, the more the estimate goes out the window. Hell they even stopped those because peeps where going bonkers with that so more proof to the FTC they are doing what must be done (even reducing income from goal frenzies) to make sure this game happens.
FtC will investigate and not find an empty basement with a CIG logo but see something that has grown quite large with many people hard at work to delver the "dream".
Customer were advertised something and then expanded in such way, that implicates in a delivery date, that according with them, they are not capable to give, even for short-term deliveries.
The company also false-advertised other sales offers during its funding campaign, which continues forever, despite been fully funded to deliver the game "faster" earlier (per their ad).
Customers are not obligated to accept. They are not obligated to stay. And CIG denies and denied refunds.
They have all the basis that they need and they will act to do not set a dangerous precedence (a negative one) for crowd-funding to be exploited by scammers (true scammers can just can start to produce shows and 'demos' made by a guys in a basement and never release anything and just keep saying that is doing forever, while selling more vaporware... even if CIG has good faith, which is hard to believe after so many lies... FTC won't let it go to do not set the precedence).
If everything is ok, as you said, CIG still will have to publicize a clear refund police to give the money to anyone who wants, as well as pay some penalties by having tried to dumb-down the customer basis and denied rights that they, as a company, have the legal responsibility to understand. Just that, will kill the project. They don't need to be true scammers. Their project is dead. It's just a matter of time.
Enjoy a few more tech demos. That's all that you will got.
Lol BS the worst that would happen in the event of your grossly misunderstood knowledge of what is going on happens is CIG will have to refund what? 2mill to ks backers? out of what over 85mil...lol
I just hope if such a sad thing does happen those ks backer that do get refunded get a perma ban and can never play the game EVER .....LOL
Seriously at this point it's just haters wanting to hate being egged on by a jealous troll.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Lol BS the worst that would happen in the event of your grossly misunderstood knowledge of what is going on happens is CIG will have to refund what? 2mill to ks backers? out of what over 85mil...lol
I just hope if such a sad thing does happen those ks backer that do get refunded get a perma ban and can never play the game EVER .....LOL
They LIED after the end of the original campaign too (the original where they got 6.2 million dollars not 2).
Oh! You think that FTC will just ask for business to refund people in this situation, after they acting in bad faith and denying refunds and pushing sales by false advertising?
I am not sure if he understands what he is saying and believes it all or just putting some icing on the cake.
These modules he likes to call them are SMALL effort aspects of game design,they are not something that needs several years or money to do.
Example Arena Commander:Nice title and all but wtf is it actually?Well all has to do with flying ships,whoa whoda thunk it in a space game?You don't give a special title to something we fully expect form day 1,it is like saying "ok look here we are building this questing system",oh ya never seen that before,what is a quest?
Hangar:This again is lol,do we really need to call this a module that a TEAM would be working on?This is something a couple guys could have pulled off in a couple weeks.Actually 3 really skilled people could do it in a week.You don't build an entire crowd funding goal to pull off building a Hangar,it is again something you would EXPECT to see in game.I actually expected to see several different ones,i assume there will only be one copy/paste to every player?
FPS module:Ok now this does deserve it's own TEAM/s and a lot of work,so i have no problem here.The problem i have is it seems like they have been doing NOTHING this whole time and just started work on the FPS aspect a month or so ago.
When he says they had 5 people to start,i am not surprised because we saw nothing from this guy.Now remember he was bantering around these same promises back when they only had 5 people and NOTHING to show.Point is can you really trust him?
I feel without question a game will eventually arrive.IO feel it will have some nice looking features,a tad bit of nice graphics here and there but i also feel Chris has a bit of John Smedley in him.He will look at a pile of crap and tell you how great it is.He will tell you about some MASSIVE updates that in reality are something a small team could pull off on their lunch breaks.My point is he is selling a TRIPLE A 9/10 game but my gut says it will be a good B rated game at around a 6-7/10 rating.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
As a non-backer, all this drama hoopla has actually peaked my interest in SC and caused me to do, you know, my own objective readings and research. I actually feel like splurging a bit of cash cause I like what I'm seeing....as tempting as it is, I'm sticking to my own principles of wait-till-it-releases-and-then-WAIT-SOME-MORE. So yeah, no. But I'm looking forward to how it turns out and feel that SC is in good hands. Nothing about it make me feel like this is a scam or whatever nonsense that I've been hearing about.
My own opinion is that alot of this negative nancies are having severe buyer's remorse(serve u right), plain idjits, chronic case of envy (Mr Derek Smart, the Uwe Boll of game developments, I'm aware of this clown WAY BACK the days of Battlecruiser) etc etc. Many i think just love the drama bananarama and like to sound smart. I see that its the same ol folks most of the time in the mega threadnaughts.
Man, that diatribe by CR was so filled with pompous self importance. And spin.
Building teams all over the world, connected by the internet: Yet your number one lackey and Wingman leaves the company because you apparently would require him to be in LA.
You (and your echelon of lockstep fans) trumpeted high profile hiring of industry vets as proof that you all were The Real Thing. Then when they leave after a short time, it's not to be mentioned, no big thing. A bit disingenuous. Talking to a friend who worked on the WC series, his take was that these folks probably signed on after some enthused recruiting from Roberts, but once on the job, seeing the disorganization, they bailed as soon as possible. Because in his view, every Roberts' production was disorganized.
Lots of little bits of contradiction, designed to smooth the feathers of those wavering in their allegiance to his Grand Dream.
[mod edit]
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Talking to a friend who worked on the WC series...
...
... in his view, every Roberts' production was disorganized.
That is not too difficult to believe, lol
Yet, out of that disorganisation came a number of space-sim games that are hailed as classics of the genre, and sold massive numbers of copies.
I didn't back the SC Kickstarter because I didn't believe that anyone could make an MMO with $2M. I remained sceptical as the scope of the project ballooned and the money just kept pouring in.
But eventually it reached a point where the budget was big enough to realistically allow the game to be made. SC had reached AAA MMO funding levels, and at that point the project moved firmly into the realm of reality.
SC most certainly does not have the biggest budget in MMO history, but there's enough funding there to get the job done well. It will in all likelihood take longer than most people expect. The possibilities allowed by unconditional funding must be very tempting to explore. Things that would never be attempted in a publisher-driven MMO may be tried in SC. They may not always work, but if they do...
If he succeeds, you lot end up with a possible great game.
If not:
no harm done, no SC game, just continue to play other games.
For the ones that plunged money into it;
-it was a crowdfunder, they were very willing to give the man money, so they dont get their money back anyways if it goes bad, nothing lost, everyone is happy.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Man, that diatribe by CR was so filled with pompous self importance. And spin.
Building teams all over the world, connected by the internet: Yet your number one lackey and Wingman leaves the company because you apparently would require him to be in LA.
You (and your echelon of lockstep fans) trumpeted high profile hiring of industry vets as proof that you all were The Real Thing. Then when they leave after a short time, it's not to be mentioned, no big thing. A bit disingenuous. Talking to a friend who worked on the WC series, his take was that these folks probably signed on after some enthused recruiting from Roberts, but once on the job, seeing the disorganization, they bailed as soon as possible. Because in his view, every Roberts' production was disorganized.
Lots of little bits of contradiction, designed to smooth the feathers of those wavering in their allegiance to his Grand Dream.
On the other hand, I don't think that Roberts truely lies: He believes everything he says when he says it, no matter its relationship to reality.
Wow... time to fudge a story? Mr. Smart or one of his fellow fans...please shut up.
WOULD THE REAL DEREK SMART PLEASE STAND UP... PLEASE STAND UP... PLEASE STAND UP
Conclusion Claim Jumping for $100, Alec....
You can check the history, I am no Johnny-come-lately to this.
My main issue is with the 'Roberts is a genius!!!' crowd. I've talked to a number of ex-Origin employees, and they have nothing good to say about him. You don't have to accept that (this is the internet after all), but the unanimity of opinion about Roberts by folks who've worked with him is striking. He's a vainglorious, self-aggrandizing egomaniac, from everything I've been able to gather. Certainly the puffery in this letter fits.
His last great attempt to free himself from the clutches of those evil publishers led to Digital Anvil. Where he eventually took money from Microsoft, and still couldn't produce a single game in house. He mismanaged that company into the ground. Maybe he's matured since then. Maybe. Don't really see it, personally. Me, I'll wait til the game comes before being convinced. 'Cause it may end up as Digital Anvil 2.
If you folks really believe, you'd better go buy more ships though, 'cause with Roberts profligate ways, he's going to need the money.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Man, that diatribe by CR was so filled with pompous self importance. And spin.
Building teams all over the world, connected by the internet: Yet your number one lackey and Wingman leaves the company because you apparently would require him to be in LA.
You (and your echelon of lockstep fans) trumpeted high profile hiring of industry vets as proof that you all were The Real Thing. Then when they leave after a short time, it's not to be mentioned, no big thing. A bit disingenuous. Talking to a friend who worked on the WC series, his take was that these folks probably signed on after some enthused recruiting from Roberts, but once on the job, seeing the disorganization, they bailed as soon as possible. Because in his view, every Roberts' production was disorganized.
Lots of little bits of contradiction, designed to smooth the feathers of those wavering in their allegiance to his Grand Dream.
On the other hand, I don't think that Roberts truely lies: He believes everything he says when he says it, no matter its relationship to reality.
Wow... time to fudge a story? Mr. Smart or one of his fellow fans...please shut up.
WOULD THE REAL DEREK SMART PLEASE STAND UP... PLEASE STAND UP... PLEASE STAND UP
Conclusion Claim Jumping for $100, Alec....
You can check the history, I am no Johnny-come-lately to this.
My main issue is with the 'Roberts is a genius!!!' crowd. I've talked to a number of ex-Origin employees, and they have nothing good to say about him. You don't have to accept that (this is the internet after all), but the unanimity of opinion about Roberts by folks who've worked with him is striking. He's a vainglorious, self-aggrandizing egomaniac, from everything I've been able to gather. Certainly the puffery in this letter fits.
His last great attempt to free himself from the clutches of those evil publishers led to Digital Anvil. Where he eventually took money from Microsoft, and still couldn't produce a single game in house. He mismanaged that company into the ground. Maybe he's matured since then. Maybe. Don't really see it, personally. Me, I'll wait til the game comes before being convinced. 'Cause it may end up as Digital Anvil 2.
If you folks really believe, you'd better go buy more ships though, 'cause with Roberts profligate ways, he's going to need the money.
I really can´t see people praising him too high overall. Sure some folks will always ignore all critic and see the Saviour of PC gaming in him but I think the majority of people around CR (how you would call it) know quite good whats really going on.
I know CR since WC. So I´m aware how his passion can lead to the point where people can´t work with him anymore. But calling him vainglorious and aself-aggrandizing egomaniac is biased. Only because he is very passionate doesn´t justify calling him mentally ill.
These attributes fit better with Mr. Smart. Really. Sadly.
Comments
3. CR lied about more money to achieve a new mark of Stretch Goals could make it faster
4. CR lied about stretch goals not having influence in the final game, when trying to say that feature creep would have no impact, because things would come after release.
5. CR lied about LTI
6. CR lied about wall and the website not been an ad tool, exclusive for backers
7. CR lied about progress of things...
8. CR lied about his popularity...
...
and the list keeps going on...
It's a bible of false advertising in a high-profile crowd-funding. FTC have a department just looking to crowd-funding and were already to the throats of low-profile crowd-funding.
In no way Star Citizen will escape from them, because it sets a standard.
Tomorrow all the scammers can just saying that "but I am doing here, look, it just will take more 2, 3... 10 years" and "all things, and earlier lies can be forgiven and refunds are ok to be denied"...
Total bs...
FTC won't let it go.
That is the messiah of the Game Industry? That is the man that is going to save us all from the "evil"?
/facepalm
Seriously... they crossed all the lines possible in how to disrespect ALL customer laws of United States.
Kickstarter wasn't stupid for Palmer Luckey
"Young inventor Palmer Luckey couldn't have got his gaming project, Rift, off the ground without $2.4m given to him via the crowdfunding website. Now his backers are angry he's sold out to the social media giant".
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/shortcuts/2014/mar/26/oculus-rift-facebook-fury-kickstarter-funders
I stopped here.
So are you saying this FTC lawyer doesn't know what they are talking about and you being a MMORPG.com lawyer are correct?
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/trouble-crowdfunding-next-big-tech-gadget-180951754/?no-ist
"The Federal Trade Commission makes and enforces rules to protect consumers from unfair or deceptive business practices, and its consumer protection principles apply to crowdfunding sites in the same way they apply to things like catalogs, direct mail and TV commercials, according to Helen Wong, an attorney with the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection. Sellers can't make deceptive representations, and they have to fulfill promises they've made to consumers, for starters."
So are you saying this FTC lawyer doesn't know what they are talking about and you being a MMORPG.com lawyer are correct?
I am saying you haven't got a clue what you are talking about and are attempting to argue from authority.
THERE IS!
They promised a game for a period, and associated more money to deliver that game in that period. Later, near of 20 million dollars, associated more money, again, to a faster release. And also said that additions wouldn't delay more the game. And now they say that it will. That they know that. Obvious! They are so smart! (with exclamation and everything)
They LIED. Many times. Not just related with this, but even with many other sales offers that they did.
And raised the scope of the game to a point that they don't know how or when to deliver:
"as it’s hard to predict exact dates in open development, especially in the stages that still involve R&D, unless you build in large time buffers."
And promised just a delayed "near of what was promised":
"It should be a win / win: you get to play a more limited version early, a version that is closer to the original goals, but you know the bigger, fuller featured version is coming – and the best bit is that you get it all for your initial pledge!"
Freaking BS! Biggest BS of the history!
They made a big letter to convince people to let them go and do all the research necessary to see if they would be able to complete the game.
They are begging for people to do not go to the court, when basically knowing that they are already knocking the door.
Deal my behind, they wanted to make a game and started it small in KS thinking they wouldn't get near the funds they did and as the project grew along with the support of those backing so did the project...blablabla it all there in the letter.
General rule of thumb when backing a KS thing, anything can happen so consider it lost moneny like a night or 3 drinking binge.
As far as I am aware what they talked about in KS is still going to happen it is just taking longer due to the success of the backing, wipe your tears the game isn't dead yet.
Seriously whats going on now is baby tantrums because "I want it NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!".... If the game does go bust I am sure someone out there will start a lawsuit as it has happened with some other game or KS not long ago.
Your precedents will be made in court not in forums or by the Smart troll.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
You mean the DSMART inspired pyramid scheme complaint...lol yea good luck with that.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I have no idea about pyramid scheme. Its just false advertising.
Except is isn't as the due date was estimated and like most kickstarters the more money that rolls in, the more goals are met, the more the estimate goes out the window. Hell they even stopped those because peeps where going bonkers with that so more proof to the FTC they are doing what must be done (even reducing income from goal frenzies) to make sure this game happens.
FtC will investigate and not find an empty basement with a CIG logo but see something that has grown quite large with many people hard at work to delver the "dream".
Take Trion for example with Defiance it was b2p and then it went f2p and myself as someone that "bought" the game got pretty much bupkiss as far as I am concerned yet they're still there....
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
The point being that people are misconstruing government legal boilerplate and by putting it in the context of this argument, are attempting to make some kind of court case without having the faintest notion of how the law works in this area. The byline of the article being used as "evidence" is:
Crowdfunding is hot right now, but a lack of regulation might leave backers at risk of falling prey to a swindle.
There is a "lack of regulation", which means that the bureaucracy in question would dearly love to expand its authority but so far has no forward guidance. The legislature has not acted on this yet, and their own top bureaucrats have not issued regulations (which carry the same force of law that legislative acts do). The specific quote in question actually disproves the claims being made against Star Citizen:
The Federal Trade Commission makes and enforces rules to protect consumers from unfair or deceptive business practices, and its consumer protection principles apply to crowdfunding sites in the same way they apply to things like catalogs, direct mail and TV commercials, according to Helen Wong, an attorney with the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection. Sellers can't make deceptive representations, and they have to fulfill promises they've made to consumers, for starters.
This is standard spokesperson boilerplate for "everyone has to obey the same rules", which pertains mainly to physical goods and services premised on an agreed remuneration. To make the argument that Star Citizen's development is a "service" is not a claim that will likely stand the test of court. At least not without the legislative and/or administrative law authorities promulgating specific regulations regarding its disposition in contract law.
And even then such a dubious claim would probably face years of litigation and may still be defeated in the end. That is likely why the ever-avaricious government bureaucracy has been hesitant to jump on this new area. The administrative side is probably punting the ball to the legislature, which of course has most of its laws written by people in the existing industry. But that is another issue.
Also, there seems to be some confusion about civil and criminal law. These are separate proceedings which nevertheless often intertwine when someone is on a witchhunt. Nobody does a good business witchhunt like the FTC, smashing underdogs and ever speaking truth for power.
That is why this is such a vital undertaking. In the past large projects were tightly controlled affairs where pools of capital were controlled by the few, through corporations and a network of banking interests. With the explosion in communication thanks to the internet, people are getting together to get things done their own way. This is very threatening to those who used to have a monopoly on funding.
If Star Citizen succeeds and can avoid being destroyed by the greedy and avaricious control freaks, it will pave the way for a new business model. To see people missing the big picture over petty personal issues is disappointing.
Customer were advertised something and then expanded in such way, that implicates in a delivery date, that according with them, they are not capable to give, even for short-term deliveries.
The company also false-advertised other sales offers during its funding campaign, which continues forever, despite been fully funded to deliver the game "faster" earlier (per their ad).
Customers are not obligated to accept. They are not obligated to stay. And CIG denies and denied refunds.
They have all the basis that they need and they will act to do not set a dangerous precedence (a negative one) for crowd-funding to be exploited by scammers (true scammers can just can start to produce shows and 'demos' made by a guys in a basement and never release anything and just keep saying that is doing forever, while selling more vaporware... even if CIG has good faith, which is hard to believe after so many lies... FTC won't let it go to do not set the precedence).
If everything is ok, as you said, CIG still will have to publicize a clear refund police to give the money to anyone who wants, as well as pay some penalties by having tried to dumb-down the customer basis and denied rights that they, as a company, have the legal responsibility to understand. Just that, will kill the project. They don't need to be true scammers. Their project is dead. It's just a matter of time.
Enjoy a few more tech demos. That's all that you will got.
Nice speech. Now call FTC. They have a department taking care of crowd-funding and are already taking actions.
Don't play the card "but we are working on it", that does not work in that way.
They are not dumb. They are looking into it... Wait and see.
But nice speech. Almost sound legit. I stopped in the above. It was a joke right? Tell me that it was.
Lol BS the worst that would happen in the event of your grossly misunderstood knowledge of what is going on happens is CIG will have to refund what? 2mill to ks backers? out of what over 85mil...lol
I just hope if such a sad thing does happen those ks backer that do get refunded get a perma ban and can never play the game EVER .....LOL
Seriously at this point it's just haters wanting to hate being egged on by a jealous troll.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
They LIED after the end of the original campaign too (the original where they got 6.2 million dollars not 2).
Oh! You think that FTC will just ask for business to refund people in this situation, after they acting in bad faith and denying refunds and pushing sales by false advertising?
Go figure.
I am not sure if he understands what he is saying and believes it all or just putting some icing on the cake.
These modules he likes to call them are SMALL effort aspects of game design,they are not something that needs several years or money to do.
Example Arena Commander:Nice title and all but wtf is it actually?Well all has to do with flying ships,whoa whoda thunk it in a space game?You don't give a special title to something we fully expect form day 1,it is like saying "ok look here we are building this questing system",oh ya never seen that before,what is a quest?
Hangar:This again is lol,do we really need to call this a module that a TEAM would be working on?This is something a couple guys could have pulled off in a couple weeks.Actually 3 really skilled people could do it in a week.You don't build an entire crowd funding goal to pull off building a Hangar,it is again something you would EXPECT to see in game.I actually expected to see several different ones,i assume there will only be one copy/paste to every player?
FPS module:Ok now this does deserve it's own TEAM/s and a lot of work,so i have no problem here.The problem i have is it seems like they have been doing NOTHING this whole time and just started work on the FPS aspect a month or so ago.
When he says they had 5 people to start,i am not surprised because we saw nothing from this guy.Now remember he was bantering around these same promises back when they only had 5 people and NOTHING to show.Point is can you really trust him?
I feel without question a game will eventually arrive.IO feel it will have some nice looking features,a tad bit of nice graphics here and there but i also feel Chris has a bit of John Smedley in him.He will look at a pile of crap and tell you how great it is.He will tell you about some MASSIVE updates that in reality are something a small team could pull off on their lunch breaks.My point is he is selling a TRIPLE A 9/10 game but my gut says it will be a good B rated game at around a 6-7/10 rating.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
As a non-backer, all this drama hoopla has actually peaked my interest in SC and caused me to do, you know, my own objective readings and research. I actually feel like splurging a bit of cash cause I like what I'm seeing....as tempting as it is, I'm sticking to my own principles of wait-till-it-releases-and-then-WAIT-SOME-MORE. So yeah, no. But I'm looking forward to how it turns out and feel that SC is in good hands. Nothing about it make me feel like this is a scam or whatever nonsense that I've been hearing about.
My own opinion is that alot of this negative nancies are having severe buyer's remorse(serve u right), plain idjits, chronic case of envy (Mr Derek Smart, the Uwe Boll of game developments, I'm aware of this clown WAY BACK the days of Battlecruiser) etc etc. Many i think just love the drama bananarama and like to sound smart. I see that its the same ol folks most of the time in the mega threadnaughts.
All the best to CiG.
Man, that diatribe by CR was so filled with pompous self importance. And spin.
Building teams all over the world, connected by the internet: Yet your number one lackey and Wingman leaves the company because you apparently would require him to be in LA.
You (and your echelon of lockstep fans) trumpeted high profile hiring of industry vets as proof that you all were The Real Thing. Then when they leave after a short time, it's not to be mentioned, no big thing. A bit disingenuous. Talking to a friend who worked on the WC series, his take was that these folks probably signed on after some enthused recruiting from Roberts, but once on the job, seeing the disorganization, they bailed as soon as possible. Because in his view, every Roberts' production was disorganized.
Lots of little bits of contradiction, designed to smooth the feathers of those wavering in their allegiance to his Grand Dream.
[mod edit]
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
That is not too difficult to believe, lol
Yet, out of that disorganisation came a number of space-sim games that are hailed as classics of the genre, and sold massive numbers of copies.
I didn't back the SC Kickstarter because I didn't believe that anyone could make an MMO with $2M. I remained sceptical as the scope of the project ballooned and the money just kept pouring in.
But eventually it reached a point where the budget was big enough to realistically allow the game to be made. SC had reached AAA MMO funding levels, and at that point the project moved firmly into the realm of reality.
SC most certainly does not have the biggest budget in MMO history, but there's enough funding there to get the job done well. It will in all likelihood take longer than most people expect. The possibilities allowed by unconditional funding must be very tempting to explore. Things that would never be attempted in a publisher-driven MMO may be tried in SC. They may not always work, but if they do...
It is so easy; have patience.
If he succeeds, you lot end up with a possible great game.
If not:
no harm done, no SC game, just continue to play other games.
For the ones that plunged money into it;
-it was a crowdfunder, they were very willing to give the man money, so they dont get their money back anyways if it goes bad, nothing lost, everyone is happy.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Conclusion Claim Jumping for $100, Alec....
You can check the history, I am no Johnny-come-lately to this.
My main issue is with the 'Roberts is a genius!!!' crowd. I've talked to a number of ex-Origin employees, and they have nothing good to say about him. You don't have to accept that (this is the internet after all), but the unanimity of opinion about Roberts by folks who've worked with him is striking. He's a vainglorious, self-aggrandizing egomaniac, from everything I've been able to gather. Certainly the puffery in this letter fits.
His last great attempt to free himself from the clutches of those evil publishers led to Digital Anvil. Where he eventually took money from Microsoft, and still couldn't produce a single game in house. He mismanaged that company into the ground. Maybe he's matured since then. Maybe. Don't really see it, personally. Me, I'll wait til the game comes before being convinced. 'Cause it may end up as Digital Anvil 2.
If you folks really believe, you'd better go buy more ships though, 'cause with Roberts profligate ways, he's going to need the money.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Ignoring someone for their count post , doesn't make their point go away. Is a ignorant comment the only thing you can come up with?
I really can´t see people praising him too high overall. Sure some folks will always ignore all critic and see the Saviour of PC gaming in him but I think the majority of people around CR (how you would call it) know quite good whats really going on.
I know CR since WC. So I´m aware how his passion can lead to the point where people can´t work with him anymore. But calling him vainglorious and a self-aggrandizing egomaniac is biased. Only because he is very passionate doesn´t justify calling him mentally ill.
These attributes fit better with Mr. Smart. Really. Sadly.