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so this game has "alpha classes"
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HOW they are implemented is the very soul of this post. They've acknowledge the situation and even given replies yet when this is brought up you attack.
So a small subset of the NOT billions that will play (that isn't their target audience) cry that they also want a talent... the response? GO an earn it. Don't sit on your laurels in a town crafting and farming, do something interesting. It's an achievement, not a given game mechanic you'll get just by buying the game.
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This game isn't about a gank-fest by non-Alpha classes (talents) but OP players.
It will happen, they expect it to happen, and they'll await the gaming community to resolve the situation where possible, they'll adjust mechanics to make it player resolvable.
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Genuine query on that... it may or may not have been addressed in the QnA on the concerns thread recently done.
Finite Resources, WYSIWYG looting to player created and maintained maps and a deep modular crafting system. So much more that hasn't been said, ask questions! Post your thoughts! Spread the word of COE!
If you haven't yet, register with my referrer code on the official website: B0E240
Also how many people play this game, also irrelevant. 200k plus players is similar to most AAA MMORPG releases in the last 15 years outside one or two, if that's the number they're expecting to have, they can expect a community very similar to a AAA MMO release. Such as but not limited to:
Age of Conan
Lord of the Rings Online
Star Wars Galaxies
and the list continues...
There are not many MMORPG's that can attract a million players, let alone BILLIONS and BILLIONS, how this number gets referenced as some sort of point eludes me.
It doesn't matter who their target audience is, this subject will effect all MMO players in the same way.
That very comment is implying the implementation mechanic of talents etc. will change. But then you are saying this thread is not about this happening. If it wasn't a feature of your discussion you wouldn't have raised it as a retort to what they'll do as a result of people complaining.
As a result it stirred counter arguments as an evolution on how they've implemented thus-far and their approach to it which stems discussion on how they'll review it during play-testing to ensure reasonable balance.
In other games you are citing the alpha classes, did they do this? Opening acknowledge the feature and it's implications or just implement it, play-test and change on feedback without stating "yes we know it'll do that as we intended that".
There are no checks and balances as yet as there is no playtesting, we know the core design goals of features but the final implementation is yet to be realised... with play-testing.
Now if we had the same situation during alpha/beta and near to launch then it's a very real discussion with much more weight on it, but as it's all text and images thus far. It is difficult to say HOW it will be.
People laughed at the Wright Brothers and said it wasn't possible... guess what. They did it.
You are laughing at this situation and saying Souldbound will capitulate like everyone else... guess what. They haven't yet and stated they know it'll happen.
Finite Resources, WYSIWYG looting to player created and maintained maps and a deep modular crafting system. So much more that hasn't been said, ask questions! Post your thoughts! Spread the word of COE!
If you haven't yet, register with my referrer code on the official website: B0E240
You've been arguing that the devs are going to release more details on the magic and talent system in the coming weeks, and suddenly me mentioning that the devs could very well change the method that one obtains a talent at some point after launch, is the same as discussing the mechanics of it in alpha?
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no, I don't believe they will.
i believe they will hold true to their values, caspian has gone into length to dig deep on mechanics to avoid as much concerns as he can, even responding to a thread on permadeath with what it means in Coe. That is relevant to this, the devs themselves have stated their intentions and despite this you believe they'll go the ways of everyone else?
were devs on previous games with alpha classes as open with their intentions on game features and mechanics?
Finite Resources, WYSIWYG looting to player created and maintained maps and a deep modular crafting system. So much more that hasn't been said, ask questions! Post your thoughts! Spread the word of COE!
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This is why I say it effects all MMO players equally. If the integrity of the game and at least the illusion of fair play is compromised in any way that a player can detect, imagined or otherwise, they simply will not stand for it. This is one of the most direct ways to lose mass players. To not only tolerate or allow "unfairness" but to push it as an intentional game design? I don't care how open you are with how you're doing it, once players see it in action it changes everything. Believing this will not be the case just because the game is niche is incredibly short sighted and naive. The players represented now in the community are an incredibly small part of what it would be should the game ever go live. You can't judge anything from that. Don't assume that the majority are going to be on board with this, even if they say so now. They wont.
Will the devs crack? They all do. They always crack.
I don't think anything the devs say at this point in development in any game really means a whole lot either way. I am taking them for their word that this is how they intend to design things, that's the best I can do.
Same with having to die to gain the most powerful characters. Good RP ideas, but I don'tthink they will work in practice.
If there is one lesson to be learned from SWG, its that Alpha classes do not work.
Owner/CEO of Soulbound Studios
ChroniclesOfElyria.com
Here it looks more random, note the word looks, It isn't really a RNG so much as a specific set of events. Do A>B>C>D and if your character has the right key, they will unlock the talent. You just don't know what is in those variables, it could be anything and even doing those might not work for you as you don't have the key. Plus I think those talents are meant to drive story not to make a person overpowered so to speak, and if you die (as in have to buy a new life) I think those talents don't carry over heck they might not carry over after the event ends, so you have to find new talents, not to mention if they are story related dropping those in the cash shop might be pointless as they might well be tied to events that no longer occur or would be out of place for the world. If everything they are placing out would be true they are trying very hard to make the world believable, suddenly abandoning that cause people complain might be counter productive and hurt them more than any "alpha class" would. Keep in mind those talents could very well be so the player can represents the threat or the "hero" of the story for that segment instead of the NPCs.
It's like a special event that you get during playing, you can't predict what it might be, or what it does, hell some of "special talents" might just be a change in how your game plays or what your character looks like, might not actually give you any powers. IT could be anywhere from walking slightly differently to being the main villain that everyone is hunting down so they can progress the next part.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
As Phry mentioned about SWG, I was also there at the time and was one of the first few Jedi unlocks on the game. It got to the point where I didn't want to play Jedi anymore. The system was changed so many times to appease massive dissension that was rampant in the player base, that it just became more trouble than it was worth. I also spent considerable time hunting other Jedi, and they were very difficult to fight. So I don't feel I have any problem being on either side of the fence.
But the way most players responded to it was toxic, if they weren't already a Jedi at least and often if they already were (feeling they were being singled out or nerfed unfairly for example). When the method became known how to unlock Jedi, it's all players cared about. It did in fact ruin the game because nobody played the game anymore. It was just "Jedi or bust".
While I certainly can see the same thing happening again on any game that aims for such a mechanic, I believe it can still be done and avoid those pitfalls. I don't share the sentiment that it is inherently wrong as a design decision, but most players probably will, whether they know it or not already. Because especially players today are conditioned to believe they should have access to all content. I think you already had a question like that in one of your Q&A sessions, a guy said "I paid for this character, I paid to have talents, why can't I have them?" That's what the future holds, and a lot of it I would wager.
Even if you design it in such a way that it may have obvious drawbacks. Like vampires in ESO. It's not even hard to get, they have many weaknesses in combat if you know how to fight them, and yet so many people want to be one because of the status. I feel it will be no different with many of the talents you could make, regardless of how unattractive they might be in some respects. The fact that it makes the player unique in an iconic way is enough. Now imagine you only allowed 20 people on the entire server to be a vampire in ESO, and I think we can imagine how well that would go over.
If you carry on and aim to avoid the mistakes other developers have made with this issue, then I wish you all the best in your efforts.
"These innovative companies never deliver, so I'm not going to support them. Furthermore, I'm going to proactively discourage others from supporting them because they never deliver." Fast forward 6-24 months after the game fails to get enough support/funding: "I told you these games never deliver!"
During crowdfunding it can come down to a single backer. What if that backer was on the fence about funding the game and read your "they'll never deliver" comment and decided not to be supportive? I get that it makes you influential, but is it really worth dozens of people losing their jobs and people who've worked passionately on a project for years having to say good-bye to a dream solely so you can say "I told you so?"
The point I'm making is, when it comes to indy companies and crowd-funded games, what you say about a game - for good or ill, has a real impact and can quite literally be the difference between success and failure. Every time you post on a forum about a game that's crowdfunding, you're talking directly to their investors.
Owner/CEO of Soulbound Studios
ChroniclesOfElyria.com
Also your investors are not my problem. It's your job to sell something to them, not my job to get out of their way so they can throw money at you. The majority of the comments I make are for my entertainment. I take full responsibility for everything I say, but I'm not going to feel the slightest bit responsible if your game does not end up getting funded. That's all on you. Were all grown ups.
I hope you do deliver on everything you've promised your fans, I think it'd be pretty awesome if you did. Do I think you will, of course not. But if you're going to let my comments affect or deter you, maybe it's just not your gig. Some guys do it for the recognition, some guys just want to crush. I'd rather be the latter guy.
Owner/CEO of Soulbound Studios
ChroniclesOfElyria.com
Why can't you rely upon the thousands of players to naturally generate 'conflict and story'?
Seeing the guy who shoots fireballs from his mouth may be interesting the very first time, then when the guy who can turn into stone shows up we all may go "ohhhhh ahhhh". But eventually, the novelty will wear off and nobody will even look up from their beers. "Oh great, another freak who's here to be famous for 3 minutes before he runs off to join the carney folk."
You're not going to keep generating a compelling story based on the same mechanics again and again.
If you want tell a thrilling story (or let you engine create one) you need some who peek out of the masses.
I think they really want to make a role play game, not everybody is a hero and does the same pre-defined story.
A blacksmith might not be very important for a dangerous plot. But maybe there will be this special blacksmith making that one sword for another hero? The engine might choose one blacksmith wich is deep into risky science.
There was this article about fame and mortality. The more famous you are, the more harsh death will be. If the hero of our story dies, he might be gone forever
Their concept is very very ambitious, cudos to them if they can make it. What they have written in their articles on this page sounds very well thought so far.
I have developed things by myself where everybody told me i can't. So if you can think you can make it, do it
The design "sounds" cool and ambitious and all of those things, but those are far away from making it work.
This isn't the first time this idea has been conjured up in someones head. The reason why so few have tried and the ones who have have relented on the notion, is simply because players won't accept it. And if they won't accept it, it won't work.
It wouldn't even be difficult to develop so I don't think that's the issue. Giving a certain portion of your players an ability and not giving it to the majority? Easy done, flip a switch. But it wouldn't occur to most any game developers to create that button much less push it.
It will start off with "why is so much development time being given to talents when so few of the paying player base gets to experience it?" There may be a few who argue against it with some reasoning. But the more the blacksmith player is left out of content, the less he feels compelled to offer those arguments.
It's very easy to follow the path this will go down if you try.
You don't need to design an unfair concept to arbitrarily pick heroes. I was "famous" on SWG on my server as a heartless bastard way before Jedi was even around. And there were those who stood up to me and we had our story. Because the tools were there to create those stories. And people cared because it was genuine drama and they knew there were no rules or joining criteria, all they had to do was stick their nose in there to become start of our story or create their own. If anything I became less famous when I became a Jedi because you were punished for showing your talents off too much. As has already been hinted at will be the case here.
Also, most people don't care about the story in MMO's too much, they just want to play something cool. If it were even possible, they're going to care even less about a story that weren't even remotely involved in. "You hear there was a massive battle involving 5 elite guys you've never really seen and 2 of them permadied?"..."That's nice, well I'm just gonna go make some swords now, bai."
It is hard to say how it will eventually work out. This does not sound like a game for elitist-munchkins.
I don't know if this is a game for me, because i don't like to invest so much time in an specific games. But there might be players which want exactly this type of game. The possibilites for immersion
As someone mentioned - the world is never fair. How many games do you know, are fair? Some players are better then other players. Is it fair to pitch them against each other? I wouldn't even want such an important talent, because it wouldn't have the time to put it to good use - but thats just me.
The best part in their concept in my opinion is the offline-player-character. Even if the blacksmith never logs back in again, he will stay part of the world. You don't even need to meet other players, because everything can work without them. You can do your business whenever you log in, because the world countinues to progress.
However, I like the story they seem to be hinting at. We keep getting these hints that talents, while great might not make you the Hero. They might well make you a target, they might be something most players do not really want and I think that is because the majority of us as players will seek to wipe out these magic users. It also been mentioned many times finding you have this power and using it for evil rather than good. To me I think they are interesting because they make clear leaders. People that you can follow into battle, on either side, and that can really help make those cohesive groups. I know that can be done with out talents, I just like the way that everyone can get behind someone. You do not have to know their guild, or have seen them in chat, it is just they have a talent and they are using it to support your cause or you get to ralley against them.
I believe there are pros and cons for every system but I like the story they are hinting at with this one.
Stories affect individually, but Soulbound is trying to make Story affect communally.
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