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so this game has "alpha classes"
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I have played several MMOs and have a lot of friends that play a lot of MMOs and only a small(2) portion of my gamer friends things the talent system is a bad idea. Most of them like the idea that the game will be limited in magical ability and that those playing a part in the story have the best chance at getting those abilities.
People like HBS and Timberhick post blanketed negativity with no purpose, claiming "constructive criticism" in the process. When we try to reply to them seriously, they troll, nitpick and claim "lol im right and youre just mad".
People like me, Defcon, Maygus and others are forced to engage with these trolls because in our absence, and our silence, on-lookers learning about the game will see no refutation or contesting of some of these bold-faced lies.
I use to be a very strong advocate for perma death and severe penalties in a game but as time passed I began to see why it was a bad choice for MMOORPGs. It works great in ARPG or SP but a MMORPG is by its very nature of how it saves the char data makes it a bad choice. If I were to loose my high level char due to a server glitch I probably would never start over even if the skills and or what not got transferred.
I am not going into a detailed debate on the subject since some WANT that sort of setback but MOST don't and when you start making these kinds of decisions on your game design the overall audience starts thinning out. Add in PvP and OP classes and you thin it more.
If the audience gets to thin then there is a cost to develop which may be greater than the return over time which can be detrimental to the whole project.
And just because it is written doesn't mean it will be so. It is at this point a wait see.
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Imo it's absolutely spot on.
The OP isn't even against talents (if done right) , instead he is asking or wonders if devs can handle the inevitable whining tsunami that will follow when talents start poping up in game, and gives SWG jedi fiasco as example.
Just visit official forums of any random MMO no matter how old and I guarantee you'll find several whine threads about 'class balance'.
Even in strickly PVE games people wont stand for some class to have even 5% edge over other let alone in a PVP environment and let alone in PVP game with a death penalty of any kind.
And the whole "PK will be discouraged by putting a heavy price on it.." is funny because griefer will pay ANY price (money, game time or whatever) in order to grief.
I can give countless examples of that and even a collective griefing like Goons were doing in EVE.
If theres a PVP there will be PK and if theres a PK it better be done by a 'non OP' class or there will be massive pressure on the devs to 'balance' the game.
I can make a bet with anyone here today that if talents make it in game, they will prove to be a major headache for devs and game breakers for many.
Personaly, I don't mind the talents at all but 20 years worth of sample size tells us that majority of gamers wont stand for PKers having any 'unfair' advantage.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Contrary to your last sentence in the above quote, it must be so. Caspian has stated there are some foundational concepts this game will not release on because they are so integral, one of them being permadeath. This game will release with permadeath or it won't release.
You would never lose your character to a server glitch by itself. I'll break this down in its entirety, to cover everything you have and haven't heard, as a white-wash post for anyone else who isn't clear on this:
When your health drops to zero, you are "Incapped". If left alone you eventually will get up with no loss of game time or loss of your character.
If a player (or very mean monster) performs a Coup de Grace on you, while you are Incapped, your character dies. This does not mean you are permadead, or that you have lost your character.
When your character dies to Coup de grace, you enter an astral plane, where you follow a silver chord back to your body. You have limited time to do this but the first time you make this walk your body should be close, the direction will be clear, and your time will be long. When you return to your body through this astral plane, you get back up and suffer some spirit loss.
Spirit loss makes that astral walk harder -- it decreases your time allowed, it makes your body farther away and it makes your body harder to find. Every time you die, it becomes a little harder to make this walk.
After you have died enough times, your body will be very far away, you will have very little time, and the silver cord leading to your body will be very faint. If time runs out and you are not at your body, then, and only then, do you finally, permanently, die.
You keep your soul, however. That soul can be put into a new, young body - probably your child. Your soul will give your new body a skill ramp, making those old skills you were good at easier to relearn with this young body. If your affairs were in order, its likely you lost very few actual material possessions and most of what you lost is inherited again and returned to you.
Unless you're very famous, or live a careless and dangerous life, your character will last many months, maybe more than a year, in real life, before you have to worry about any of this.
As for the OP Classes -- there are no classes in CoE, so i don't know what you're talking about here.
20 years of games that bear almost no resemblance to what's being discussed here is about as good as 20 years as a PhD in physics in a bizarro universe that breaks all known laws of physics.
You assume all talents are combat based, when only a fraction of them will be. You also assume for some reason that a player without a talent can't defeat a player with a talent, in a game that is explicitly stated as being heavily skill based.
As for griefers... lol
Griefers don't know what they're in for in this game, because they will come in thinking they are the wolves. They will base out of somewhere, gather their supplies and start raiding, killing en masse, keeping players from their corpses, doing whatever they can to break the game. And then the nations will respond.
In other games, when you wanted to go out and grief someone, or pvp in general, you and your friends got together in the safety of the main-hub town. A safe zone. High sec. What ever you want to call it, you will not have it in CoE. There are no safe zones. There are no safe havens for griefers to hide in that won't be burned down by the nations in this game. When a group of griefers has been spotted, forum messages from one guild leader to an alliance leader and one alliance leader to the next will spread.
Every city and nation in the game will know there is a group trying to break the game, and every city and nation in the game will give them no quarter, no where to hide, no where to rebuild. There won't be a global bank to go back to like in Darkfall, or even a local bank to go back to in Albion. Banks in the citys will be controlled by the city. Banks in small outposts will be burned down. They will be hounded until they have nothing left, and the griefers will be camped until their spark of life is gone and their money spent, griefed out of the game they sought to grief..
I almost feel bad for the first group of griefers to think they will enjoy this game.
In my experience, most players are too busy working on their own progression or helping friends to worry about some poor shmuck being griefed.
And guilds uniting (most are rivals) under a single banner to chase down and exterminate the evil doers?
Come on now, that's not based on reality, fantasy really.
I've always been a popular guild leader and I've never wasted guild's time or resources just to avenge a guildy that's been harassed in any (game mechanics allowed) way.
I might go help the 'victim' myself or maybe ask few friends to join me but I'm not rallying the troops for anything other then guild progression related stuff.
The griefed player better have close friends close by or log off to avoid harassment.
And those that log off will run straight to forums and start the standard angry threads that we always see and most importantly, if the PKer was alone talents or any other 'unfair' advantage that's available in the game will be blamed, regardless if the PKer had it or not because nobody comes on forums and says "Gaiz, gaiz I suxxorz @ PVP and got molested by suppa l33t playa!!!".
For the victim the PKer either plays OP class or if no OP classes/abilities in game then the PKer is a hacker, thats how it goes.
That's why I see the talents as a massive headache for devs and I haven't seen a reliable info or realistic scenario of how this type of situations will be prevented.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Not every nation will care, or respond, but when you're talking about the man-power of a city levied against a group of unsupported griefers... you don't really need many cities to crush something like that. A simple forum post is all it takes to alert neighbor towns that anyone known to harbor this group will be seen as an enemy and to be associated with the griefers.
If you're a guild leader, then you know reputation is one of the most invaluable qualities a clan, or player, can acquire, because it sticks. Reputation for things like hacking and griefing stay for a long, long time.
As for talents -- you're really concerned about something thats going to turn up so rarely, you won't have to worry about it. If someone did come on the forums complaining "i just died - he must have had a talent for archery. nerf talents", who would take that seriously?
We're not talking about balancing proper classes -- which i think is infinitely harder to balance than a handful of people with the chance to get one of small number of skills that might help them in pvp. Roughly 5% of souls will have talents: do you know how many skills there are planned for this game?
Of those 5%, only a portion will be even remotely combat related,
and they have to be discovered,
and the skill they help has to be trained,
and the player training it has to actually be good at what hes trying to do.
In all likelihood, a talent for archery could go to the player most excited about opening a bakery. He will never even know he could have had a talent he had no interest in.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
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If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
Personally I'd like to try out any of the new interesting ideas planned for this game but I'm very worried about how the masses will respond to it.
Clearly it's going to be niche game but if devs aim for too deep and complicated gameplay, all they might get is the top 1% of the most open minded mature RPG-ers that ever lived lol, and my guess is there aren't too many of them, certanly not enough to support a MMO.
Either way, if this game ever sees the light of day I will probably try it because I like scouting indi MMOs that are at least brave enough to try something new.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
I made your replies unbolded, and replied with my own bolded text.
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
One thing I am seeing in all the comments is the lack of understanding in the "high' level character. You really don't have- "you are a level 55-80" in this game. You have stages in your progression of a skill but you not only have the chance to learn your skill but also train your skills to others and you have a wide variety on how you want to shape your individual person. The folks here that continue to state it is an MMO miss the whole in entire point. It isn't about the level, it is about how you interact with the community. It is more reminiscent to a tabletop D & D game taken into the computer world and how one reacts with the community of other players and their landscape.
It isn't devoid of magic but it is very limited. So what do you really want to do? Do you want to go out and explore the wilds, do you want to be that tailor without any constrictions of what you design - you create those through your own inventions.
Pick up the dice and roll, let's see if you succeed.
probably not
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Nothing posted here is a lie, the fanbois have harder time keeping up with the facts that we know about the game than the detractors, this has been established a couple of times. The detractors are operating under as benjola put it, about 20 years worth of sample size of MMO experience. A lot of the supporters you're talking about, including yourself, literally just joined this site and behave like they just stepped off the boat. My new join date aside that you liked to point out as your great discovery only speaks more of the naivety.
Only 5% of any character in the game world at a given time will have a talent. When they die, that player's next character may or may not get a talent on their second character. You could go many lives on the same or different souls and never see your character with a talent, or you could get one right after another.
I wonder what the timeframe is on population checking and what happens if there is 12% of the population with active talents.
Another thing that makes me go Hmmm about this game. NPC attacking Talented characters on site 'cuz magic'.
Think about it. Sure in the first 4 months of release it's reasonable, after that? Not so much. All about time, something the game professes to be super aware of. If it's 5 years into release and Talented players are still being attacked on site...500+years after Talented people started reappearing.....
If a number of people without talents stop playing, and their characters age-out and die off, the census could detect a change in the ratio, and might "pause" the 5% until more talented characters die out.
On the flipside, if talented characters die but the server population is otherwise stable (player makes a new character almost immediately) then a talent is gifted to someone already in the game, maybe for participating in the story.
There's lots of simple ways to keep the ratio in check, these were just a couple i thought of off the top of my head.
As for attacking magic users, maybe they will stop after the first 100-200 years of magic resurfacing. Like anything else in real life culture, big changes take a long time to gain mainstream acceptance, like homosexuality or interracial relationships.