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so this game has "alpha classes"
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Anyway it is somewhat pointless to discuss many of these things. There is not much on the market to compare against. Creating hype or anti-hype based on specualtion won't lead to anything.
I asked the question
"Wonder why you feel the need to add in Talents to help generate conflict between players.
Why can't you rely upon the thousands of players to naturally generate 'conflict and story'?"
Which was never answered by Jeromy.
A similar line of thought was on CoE forums (about talents)
Players have no trouble driving the story in other sandboxes with out dev granted I win buttons.
Jeromy responds with
Which stories were you referring to? Or for that matter, which sandboxes?
Think about it.
Why does Jeromy feel he has to add in "Talents" to a game to generate conflict and story?
Does Jeromy not understand that story can come from two people in a game regardless of what the maker of the game wants? Two competing guilds will naturally generate conflict, and when there is conflict there tends to be story.
Jeromy states Talents are:
Talents are things like: Able to planeswalk, able to use powerful magic, able to breathe underwater, able to fly, able to heal quickly, able to detect magic, able to read auras, able to resist fire, able to shapeshift, able to predict important future event, etc... Think of things granted to Demigods and you're much closer to what Talents are.
(I'm gonna go all PnP RPG terms here)The more he talks about the game, the more you realize what he talks about is no Sandbox. What he is describing is a monorail(railroad) in a Theme Park. It baffles me that more people do not see this for what it actually is.
What you are doing - quite literally - is reading very little about CoE; and making large sweeping statements and generalizations of it by looking at your experience in other games that are completely different in scope and design.
As far as Jeromy's post about Gold Sellers - I think it is fairly reasonable to assume that in a game with Open PvP, no chat channels, and no mailboxes - it would be very inefficient to draw a profit by Gold-Selling. In fact, there isn't even a Standard Currency in CoE. What kind of currency would the bots even try to farm? What kind of bandit would relish the opportunity to steal from Gold Seller bots? The checks and balances are built into the game. I cannot think of another game that actually prevents Gold Selling. It's a problem in every game; and CoE might be the first that will really do anything about it.
Finally - there is a very real desire for a game like this by a relatively large community. Maybe the game isn't for you? And that's okay.
Do you know why on other forums and with other devs they don't come out and defend their game (unless you're Derek Smart)? Because it makes you look petty and vindictive and very unprofessional. There's no way to do it and come off as genuine. It's lose lose son. Just a pro tip there.
Just makes it easier to write this stuff off as vapourware, if you already acting like that in concept phase.
As for the rest of your post, lol well I can write you off and be not interested in you just as quickly, since you're not interested in the betterment of the community in general either. Apparently you're just here to make money, as if I didn't already know that.
In my view he presented his argument much better than you did as he backed up his argument with dev journals and all you did was state well this didn't work in other games, kind of feel like you just wanted to try and start something as you quickly diverted (after it was answered) to he contradicts himself and then tried to link him to D Smart, I think personally this guy is better off talking to the other people (even if you are the OP) He perfectly answered your question on "alpha classes" and now your on him contradicting which is off topic of your original post. Yes guys the OP has gone off topic on his own topic.
You are right on something, they shouldn't come here and defend the game, it's a pointless endevor. I don't blindly believe everything they say, and i'm still on a wait and see basis for this game, but he just plain presented his side of the debate much better than you.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I have read this thread fully today. A developer is trying to engage with a gaming community. He has a plan, he's excited about it, he wants to make it happen and he wants to make money doing so. His agenda is logical and understandable.
Yours is as you have stated before that you prefer to "crush" . You can't expect to command any respect with that attitude. That's why @JeromyWalsh ;is ignoring you, not because he doesn't know what kind of game he wants to make.
If you like the game play it, if not then do not play it. Don't whine about things you can't change all that does is ruin games.
There ya go.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
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I have read through the whole thread and I want to summarize what I've seen, avoiding the personal attacks as they add nothing of value to the conversation.
HFS, the OP, raised the topic of talents equating to the creation of an alpha class. He has had experience in games that have tried the alpha class concept, and mentions SWG as a game that tried that and had several issues with implementation that lead to a very bad experience. He has also hinted that he has played other games that have tried the idea.
Due to previous experiences HFS is concerned that the inclusion of an alpha class in CoE will harm the game. He thinks players that do not receive the the randomly distributed talents will be irate that some players have abilities that they have no perceived chance at having. HFS believes that the result of such inequality will be either the devs caving to demand (most likely scenario in the mind of HFS the way I read it), by either nerfing the talents or making them universally available via item mall. The other scenario he foresees is the devs not changing anything and the players disliking the inequality and leaving in droves.
My impression is that HFS strongly believes that this aspect of the game is going to ruin the game and is unwilling to take a wait and see attitude to see if the devs can get this right.
@JeromyWalsh
I have seen the head dev come onto this thread to explain the logic of talents and how they fit his overall vision of the game. He acknowledges that the inclusion of talents may turn off a certain group of players but justifies their inclusion by stating that they add to the sense of RP and narrative in the game, adding to fun and interesting stories that players can pursue.
@HabitualFrogStomp
The OP rebuts by stating that additional talents are unnecessary because players are able to drive the story and narrative themselves without the addition of an element of inequality. He points out that the game is supposed to be "sandbox", and having the talents guide players to take the story in a certain direction is counter to the meaning of "sandbox"
My take on the conversation:
I agree that the addition of talents creates inequality in the game and I agree that it is a valid concern that it could make the game unbalanced. It is a bit of a tight-rope to ensure the cool abilities talents give a player are balanced out by the fun other players can have by participating in that aspect of the story line. I am curious to see if this balance can be achieved. I agree that the inclusion of an alpha class in SWG was a disaster. It was implemented poorly and the knee-jerk reactions by the devs only made matters worse.
However:
SWG was a very early MMO. Lessons have certainly been learned since that time (though not by all devs). There were also many more things wrong with SWG than just an alpha class. It was botched in so many ways that it is hard to isolate how problematic the alpha class was to the game as a whole.
As for this game. It is very clear that the devs have put a lot of thought into the talents and how they want those talents to fit with their overall vision of a game that will be immersive and fun to play. I personally am excited to see what the talents will look like and how they will drive certain storylines, at the same time as being concerned that their inclusion could make for an unhappy player base if not done correctly. I also want to mention that while the devs want to create a "sandbox" type atmosphere, my take on it is their primary goal is to create a game they want to play, which means guiding the experience in some cases. I also want to point out, the players don't have to play out the story as it is laid out for them, is seems as though there will be room for them to take it in new and unexpected ways (I'd be interested to find out if someone can back me up on this since is merely an impression I have and not based on solid statements). There are four things I like in particular about the inclusion of talents:
1. As mentioned by Jeromy Walsh, the talents will be there for the specific purpose of advancing some part of the story. I look forward to seeing those stories unfold. They provide a level of excitement and novelty within the game that can lead to longer playability.
2. I like the idea that I may have a hidden talent in my character that I may not know about for several lifetimes (or ever). It will lead to experimentation on my part to do different interesting things and push the bounds of what I do so that I can create opportunities to unlock talents that may or may not be there.
3. I think it will be fun and exciting when characters I know unlock their talents and I will take enjoyment from their excitement (or dread) if and when such an event happens.
4. I like that a certain segment of players (I'm thinking many those that play WoW) will not like this aspect of the game and will pass it by. This feature, along with others, I believe will help to create a more immersive and mature gaming experience.
In closing; I have also played many MMO's, but not for years. I have not seen anything until this game that gets me excited enough to want to play. I am enjoying reading about the innovations the devs have included in this game, and the talents are one of the things I am excited about. This is the only game that has come along in years that I will consider playing and I look forward to further updates.
You want to make money? Put out SOMETHING that people like. ARK is the perfect example. That thing hit in June and hasnt looked back since. And no one had even heard of it in May. They didnt rely on shit, they put out a game and it was decent. They opened up to unofficial servers and that made it leap forward even more, then they made a development/mod kit and opened the game up to modders and the rest is history.
I surely dont ever remember seeing Wildcard or any other studio or developer looking for funding for ARK. They made their money selling the product.
While it isnt perfect it is a hell of a far sight better than the shit released the past decade or the promises and empty nonsense of every over hyped piece of crap this website talks about.
CoE looks interesting but so have a dozen other failures over the past 10-12 years. The main concern I have is this thing has already started out promising the world and every new blurb we get about it is another fantasy addition to everyones list of ''what should every MMO have in it". When we start actually seeing things get put out (and not changed due to financial issues) we might start getting impressed.
In this case Talents are severely restricted and are story devices before anything else. It is deliberately misleading to use the term "class".
Talents are not Alpha Classes.
Finally, players have never managed to keep a sandbox alive by themselves; just look at Darkfall and Mortal. The wailing of boredom because there is no RPG element or story is deafening.
Players need a developer created framework within which to war, siege and socialize. Their actions need an RPG context because the alternative, forum drama, is only interesting for a minority. Hopefully Soulbound, Talents, Dynasties will be that framework.
It has absolutely nothing to do with how many players are able to attain said alpha class, so you're clearly making up your own definition and adding on criteria that in no way fit.
If anything less players having access to those skills makes the skill more alpha, so with that in mind makes your definition all the more illogical.
Talents are alpha classes, as they fit all the criteria needed to be.
This thread is about the problems this design causes a developer, and a playerbase. We've clearly already demonstrated how these "talents" are alpha classes. One only need to read the thread or any details on how this system works to be so informed. As this has been so uniformly established, your sudden declaration that they are not must likewise be uniformly rejected.
The point is they will whine, the game will be ruined (if it was even any good to begin with). But then, I guess understanding that would require reading the OP.
Sure they're stronger but they are also the target for story progression and are going to have people on their tails.
Also once the story requirement is fulfilled, the "alpha class" vanishes and they are returned to normal.
The bigger question I have is simply if there are points where each character is designed to enter a story, what happens if when said time comes the character either isn't on, or has stopped logging in for whatever reason how does the story progress in that case?
EDIT: I should also note that the clarification was needed as I just looked up alpha class in google. I got Alpha course, alpha male, and alpha mom, alpha course is a evangelical course to teach the basics of faith, alpha male is the leader of a pack, the alpha mom is the mom who can basically do everything. While this can translate to being better than others, I didn't find an actual definition on alpha classes, maybe a better term would be alpha skill to avoid confusion with the regular definition of class. Unless you'd care to link a definition of alpha class I somehow missed.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
This is one of the key points touched on in one of Q&A sessions, I'd advise you to go listen to them and come back if you intend to discuss it.
This was already addressed....on like the first sentence of the OP. If you're not already familiar with the term "alpha class" I think it should be fairly self evident.
- Talents are not available to all and are severely restricted. A class, as it is popularly understood, is a fundamental option for all players that would like to achieve it, regardless of the effort involved. This is a fundamental difference from your Jedi example which anyone could achieve that wanted to do the effort.
- A Talent's primary use is to drive the story and will only sometimes, and incidentally, give a player benefit usually with significant impositions placed on them. A class, like a Jedi, is allowed to continue his/her game without such a trade-off.
- In addition Jedi was marketed as a traditional class and thus the community took it as such. These developers are going out of their way to make sure the community knows what a Talent is and as such they will not see it as a class because well... for another thing the game is classless. The logical leap one has to make to equate Talents to a class in a classless game is nonsensical.
I forgot of course about the internet rule that once a poster that came before decided something it become inviolate to anyone that comes after.
OPs argument, while not totally devoid of merit, hence Jeromy's polite efforts to clarify what a Talent is, is grossly dramatized and exaggerated. Quite the norm for this website of course.
Then again as you said you are here for entertainment. Reasoned discussion is not your purpose. Hence if anyone's argument can be summarily ignore it is yours.
- Everyone will have equal access to "talents" in this game. Either through participating in the story or finding the randomness necessary to unlock them, or by purchasing a new soul which will give them equal chance at having a soul with a hidden talent as anyone else. This does not change the fact that something being better than something else has absolutely nothing to do with how many players have access to it. Your argument is entirely illogical.
- There were many trade-offs for being a Jedi in game. Visibility, saber tef, bounty hunters, experience loss, even perma death at one stage, etc. From what we understand there will be advantages to having an "old soul" in this game, whereas Jedi were forced to start over completely, lose a lightsaber that was potentially worth 10's of millions of credits, and had no advantages to starting all over again. The punishment for perma death as a Jedi was far more severe than what this game suggests for people who hold talents. So again comparing it to SWG does nothing to support your argument.
- Jedi was only marketed as a traditional class after the NGE when it was a starting class. The developers were very clear from the beginning that Jedi would be something difficult to attain and not every player would become one. This was known from concept phase. You assert that a ton of players had Jedi while they were an alpha class. As subjective as your definition is (which is entirely defeats the point of defining something) it just does not hold up under logic.
StaalBurgher said:
This refers to well, every class in every game ever. You've defined what a "class" is in an MMO. Congratulations. However, you have not approached defining what an alpha class is and one can only assume you have no idea what it means. So your definition must be rejected on grounds that it's either intentionally vague or you're just ignorant of the context.
The majority of players who played pre-NGE never even saw a Jedi (as when the game was at it's peak population there were no Jedi, the unlocking mechanic was later revealed to not even be in the game until a couple of months after the game launched) and later when Jedi were more common the majority of the player base certainly did not have one. Even in NGE when only a handful of classes were available, many players certainly did not select it over the 8 other available professions, as you were limited to one character per server, unless you already a Jedi you were allowed 2. The fact it was later changed to a starting class does nothing but support my OP. So by your logic SWG Jedi never fit the criteria of an alpha class either, even though it is the most notable example of a game that had them. For my logic, no such leap is required, just a bit of reading. As I pointed out to the poster before you, this was address on the very first sentence of the OP. I guess you didn't make it that far.
Your "argument" is entirely semantical, or based on poor understanding of another game's mechanics, hence if anyone's argument can be summarily ignore it is yours. Not to mention it was entirely rendered impotent by a simple sentence I typed a week ago. Do you need more time to catch up?
I will admit that talents do carry over. That I was mistaken on.
On that note I also took a look at these talents. One of them is underwater breathing. which allows you to, you guessed it breath underwater. I've even heard it's possible to gain some talents that may actually hurt you. So even going after these is kind of risky
Yes magic is also possible but if i recall correctly in a previous dev journal or post that this takes time to cast spells, which means you are not simply going to be using this in a fight willy nillyl. These things have counter balances to them.
The biggest thing we are forgetting with these so called alpha talents, and in most cases they aren't even alpha, only a select few of these are actually useful in combat where it'd actually matter. but I digress, we are forgetting that there's a small chance you'll actually even be able to unlock these yourself, and of that small chance, theres a small chance you'll find out what these triggers are, and of that small chance theres another small chance that the talent you do get is actually useful as you could get something akin to ability to see the percent chance of crafting being successful.
In the end you have to get very lucky
Get a soul with the talent>manage to create the trigger>manage to get an actual useful talent>hope this talent doesn't make you a target.
It's so small of a chance that it's nearly pointless to go after this yourself on purpose. You'd have a better chance of winning the lottery. and good luck griefing others, doing that comes with other consequences with the in-game law system. Better hope in your rampage of fun that someone doesn't kill you and take some of your stuff and then find out that the one crafter that could make it again wasn't involved in that rampage of yours.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
One of many things that is uniformly true of MMORPG design, the more complex you design a system, the more likely it is that players will do things with it that you did not intend. We can sit here all day and talk about "oh it will be hard to get talents, and players wont abuse them, because of" whatever. It does nothing to address the issues brought up in this thread, it's just repeating rhetoric that anyone who is familiar with this games conceptual direction is familiar with.
Going back to ESO, becoming Emperor doesn't provide any significant advantages to a player once they are not actively the current Emperor, it doesn't change the fact that the most hardcore guilds have long since gotten all their significant members emperorship status via a merry-go-round method, and taken a fair amount of considerable trouble to do so. Something not being particular advantageous is not reasoning why a players would not seek to gain it in game and stop at nothing to do so. So "hard or near impossible to attain" does not mean it will not be the main focus of serious gamers. To argue otherwise is futile and goes against everything we know about MMO players.
Talents are not equally accessible to everyone, you have no direct control over whether you will get one. Your argument fails right there OP. Sorry.
Your alpha class rambling has been thoroughly debunked.
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