Obviously.. a bunch of people who ask questions about what has been made, with no idea of what is actually out there already made.. must know the most about this topic.
So.. with that put out.
I concede.. to their vast and endless knowledge on this subject.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Talk about kicking it old school, damn. this guy really is going all out in returning to the MUD roots.
This is is bringing back memories of the AOL days of text MUDs, when we had to have our own front ends and write our own scripts (or copy someone else) to pull this off, and then run the script off our computers, so we technically stayed logged in to do this (given we paid by the Minuit, you can imagine why they wanted us to stay logged in).
Now it has a modern take is that as opposed to using our own front ends and needing to be logged in using up bandwidth, we get set and forget our own AK farm scripts In game, using an In-game editor. Definitely an upgrade.
However, I Hate to break this to you, but nothing new to see here.
This is Just another rehashed old MUD idea, That kind of thing and the tech behind it has been around for decades. How he sucker anyone to think that this this was gonna be ground breaking, new wave super system, or needed some special super OS to pull off, is beyond me, this kind of thing has been going on for decades. Hell, we used to write scripts for EQ when they opened the Merchant Mall (We had to stay logged in.. like WTF, so we scripted that)
In fact, I used to write my own scripts for the MUD's I would play, it was so prevalent that they used to script check us, as like 90% of the game was AFK, and even gave in and made no-rules servers where we could script AFK 24/7 (not like we didn't, but I used to have my script log me out, for a random 6 - 8 hours a day to make it look like I slept at least. Modern farming scripts can be found for major MMO's as well, but they often hack the system and do illegal stuff to work right, so I don't suggest them. AFK farm scripts, AK fight Scripts, Pathing Scripts, none of this is new stuff.
Like for example, Revelations Online, You can autopath to destinations, and then with a simple scrip off Razer you can fight all day and night. So, this is not really "Amazing" as you seem to think it is, it's been done before, a LOT.
Not trying to be mean here, but this is not even quite as impressive as how EQ used to have AI take over your character mid fight if you DC'ed, equip weapons, cast spells and Finnish the combat for you (sometimes you would even win), or better yet, when a Mob charmed you and your character would turn and attack party members, and even run away when low on health into the Mobs territory, that was some epic level stuff, but even that.. still 90's tech.
So, just to get this clear,
You all are really telling me that you don't believe a game system that can run millions of scripts for NPC behaviors, that can react to player actions, and generate engaging combat, won't be able to run some pre-set scripts set by the players themselves?
Well this has been fun.. I laughed.
Still a bad idea IMHO, as script running always turned into a AFK farm fest in the MUDs, gonna bet, it does the same thing here. Even if not used extensively on their main, think about it, if someone can buy a Kingdom they can buy a few extra throw away accounts, set some farm script or whatever, then collect at the end of the year or month or whatever, allowing them to do 10, 20, 100 times work and gather resources, with no additional effort.
What was the name of the game that your character stayed logged in even if you logged out?
Did you miss where I said we used scripts to stay logged in?
But, if you are wondering what game still runs my scripts and my player made content long after Log out, that's a pretty long list.
But what game comes to mind first is Neverwinter.
I wrote some dungeons for that game, I wrote the chat, the choices, the encounters, which mobs, where they would spawn, what they would say, if anything, made the maps, and all the little details, by my hand.
I have long since stopped playing that game, it's been years since I logged in, yet people are still playing the dungeon I made, still interacting with my NPCs', killing My Mobs, getting the rewards for playing what I made..
In short.. Long after I left.. People are still playing with my AFK 'self' in game.
So what do you have to say this can't be done, when that game was made 5 years ago.
I made a persistent world server for Neverwinter Nights 2 so your not the only one, congratulations!
Also scripting a bot is not exactly hard.
Your still full of it when you act like what they are going to do has ever been done on the scale they are aiming for.
I'll believe it when I see it.
I'm sure with 3 less employees and no spatialOS it will be a walk in the park.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Talk about kicking it old school, damn. this guy really is going all out in returning to the MUD roots.
This is is bringing back memories of the AOL days of text MUDs, when we had to have our own front ends and write our own scripts (or copy someone else) to pull this off, and then run the script off our computers, so we technically stayed logged in to do this (given we paid by the Minuit, you can imagine why they wanted us to stay logged in).
Now it has a modern take is that as opposed to using our own front ends and needing to be logged in using up bandwidth, we get set and forget our own AK farm scripts In game, using an In-game editor. Definitely an upgrade.
However, I Hate to break this to you, but nothing new to see here.
This is Just another rehashed old MUD idea, That kind of thing and the tech behind it has been around for decades. How he sucker anyone to think that this this was gonna be ground breaking, new wave super system, or needed some special super OS to pull off, is beyond me, this kind of thing has been going on for decades. Hell, we used to write scripts for EQ when they opened the Merchant Mall (We had to stay logged in.. like WTF, so we scripted that)
In fact, I used to write my own scripts for the MUD's I would play, it was so prevalent that they used to script check us, as like 90% of the game was AFK, and even gave in and made no-rules servers where we could script AFK 24/7 (not like we didn't, but I used to have my script log me out, for a random 6 - 8 hours a day to make it look like I slept at least. Modern farming scripts can be found for major MMO's as well, but they often hack the system and do illegal stuff to work right, so I don't suggest them. AFK farm scripts, AK fight Scripts, Pathing Scripts, none of this is new stuff.
Like for example, Revelations Online, You can autopath to destinations, and then with a simple scrip off Razer you can fight all day and night. So, this is not really "Amazing" as you seem to think it is, it's been done before, a LOT.
Not trying to be mean here, but this is not even quite as impressive as how EQ used to have AI take over your character mid fight if you DC'ed, equip weapons, cast spells and Finnish the combat for you (sometimes you would even win), or better yet, when a Mob charmed you and your character would turn and attack party members, and even run away when low on health into the Mobs territory, that was some epic level stuff, but even that.. still 90's tech.
So, just to get this clear,
You all are really telling me that you don't believe a game system that can run millions of scripts for NPC behaviors, that can react to player actions, and generate engaging combat, won't be able to run some pre-set scripts set by the players themselves?
Well this has been fun.. I laughed.
Still a bad idea IMHO, as script running always turned into a AFK farm fest in the MUDs, gonna bet, it does the same thing here. Even if not used extensively on their main, think about it, if someone can buy a Kingdom they can buy a few extra throw away accounts, set some farm script or whatever, then collect at the end of the year or month or whatever, allowing them to do 10, 20, 100 times work and gather resources, with no additional effort.
What was the name of the game that your character stayed logged in even if you logged out?
Lost Chaos. But then they are only merchant.
Well to make this argument somewhat real take into account that the server is running a bot and not the client. The bot has to run at a sync of the server so lets suppose that just for instance a server is stressed tested with 100 bots (server side generated clients) which is kind of high on single 2 core server and each iteration of the loop has to execute in 10 milliseconds. If the bot is to be believable the code is designed to randomize the actions. Actions were run, decide on collision( static AI), Continual run test ( active AI), harvest random nodes(built this code myself), attack random mobs and guards. A good example of bot testing in Bigworlds indie engine allowed you to do it through python script. I had this engine for a lot of testing on single 2 core server so by single instance I could somewhat determine how much additional servers I would need to support 1500 CCU.
This also had to include AI for 250 monsters and 20 or so guards around the encampment. The entire area of this test bed is 2 KM square or approx. 4 square KM. Which would only occur once since in a sense these are also bots but his is a typical zone(not in the same sense as a zone but a area of the server cluster).
Now we are not taking instanced spawning here where ever spawn is a copy such as the orc example but the actual bot AI which was designed to stress the server to the breaking point where action from all the things going on tend to backup into the system to where it stops functional processing since it can't pass the workload from one instance to another core processor.
(Keep in mind BWT engine is a highly scalable engine based on cores so it is considered a cluster server. I might also add if it weren't for the ridiculous cost of $500,000 I would have continued development and had war gaming not fucked us indies so bad, I may even have continued as a indie version)
Initial test was me as a client and 10 bots. The process was a success so I added in 10 more bots it was success so I added 10 more bots. This was the start of the complaint from the server log that says HEY! I am ending execution after starting a new loop. It would slowly start backing up until it reached the point after 45 minutes where it stopped taking input from my real client and I got kicked.
So by best comparisons of data from the log a single 2 core server was to back it off 25% so what they said in the documentation was really accurate to what a core could do. The best case is 20 to 40 clients per core. A full 6 core machine may be able to handle ONE instance of the server code and 120 to 160 clients. So for 1500 CCU I would need a least 10 to 12 servers in the cluster.
That is factual data not made up estimated which is tested under a real server.
Now lets take this into account from a server build by a highly skilled team of people which is around 30 and most of them are MA and a few PhD. They claim the approximate of 20 to 40 clients per core depending on existing game design and they are pretty accurate.
How many servers do you think it would take to run 100,000 clients?
I'll check in again later to see who gets that participation award OrangeBoy was referrring to. I think the most-insipid-comment-from-assclown-with-zero-talent is yet to come. What other amazing insight will the geniuses who probably couldn't separate dog turds from tanbark offer to the current situation?
Stay tuned, folks!
You criticize people personally for criticizing a company. Why are you allowed to pass judgement, but no one else is? How is that not a double standard? How are you not even more guilty of the very thing you are accusing people of when you hurl such nasty Ad-Homs? No one insulted you personally.
Today I witnessed the most amazing thing ever, I saw a pencil, that's not really quite a pencil. Somehow it had endless amount of lead if you pressed on the miraculous erased embedded on the top endless amount of lead would come out. It was marvelous, technology has really gone far since Jesus of Nazarath was born.
What does this have to do with the conversation here? As much as talking about the first time flying or struggling to buying a used car via contract has to do with it.
Talk about kicking it old school, damn. this guy really is going all out in returning to the MUD roots.
This is is bringing back memories of the AOL days of text MUDs, when we had to have our own front ends and write our own scripts (or copy someone else) to pull this off, and then run the script off our computers, so we technically stayed logged in to do this (given we paid by the Minuit, you can imagine why they wanted us to stay logged in).
Now it has a modern take is that as opposed to using our own front ends and needing to be logged in using up bandwidth, we get set and forget our own AK farm scripts In game, using an In-game editor. Definitely an upgrade.
However, I Hate to break this to you, but nothing new to see here.
This is Just another rehashed old MUD idea, That kind of thing and the tech behind it has been around for decades. How he sucker anyone to think that this this was gonna be ground breaking, new wave super system, or needed some special super OS to pull off, is beyond me, this kind of thing has been going on for decades. Hell, we used to write scripts for EQ when they opened the Merchant Mall (We had to stay logged in.. like WTF, so we scripted that)
In fact, I used to write my own scripts for the MUD's I would play, it was so prevalent that they used to script check us, as like 90% of the game was AFK, and even gave in and made no-rules servers where we could script AFK 24/7 (not like we didn't, but I used to have my script log me out, for a random 6 - 8 hours a day to make it look like I slept at least. Modern farming scripts can be found for major MMO's as well, but they often hack the system and do illegal stuff to work right, so I don't suggest them. AFK farm scripts, AK fight Scripts, Pathing Scripts, none of this is new stuff.
Like for example, Revelations Online, You can autopath to destinations, and then with a simple scrip off Razer you can fight all day and night. So, this is not really "Amazing" as you seem to think it is, it's been done before, a LOT.
Not trying to be mean here, but this is not even quite as impressive as how EQ used to have AI take over your character mid fight if you DC'ed, equip weapons, cast spells and Finnish the combat for you (sometimes you would even win), or better yet, when a Mob charmed you and your character would turn and attack party members, and even run away when low on health into the Mobs territory, that was some epic level stuff, but even that.. still 90's tech.
So, just to get this clear,
You all are really telling me that you don't believe a game system that can run millions of scripts for NPC behaviors, that can react to player actions, and generate engaging combat, won't be able to run some pre-set scripts set by the players themselves?
Well this has been fun.. I laughed.
Still a bad idea IMHO, as script running always turned into a AFK farm fest in the MUDs, gonna bet, it does the same thing here. Even if not used extensively on their main, think about it, if someone can buy a Kingdom they can buy a few extra throw away accounts, set some farm script or whatever, then collect at the end of the year or month or whatever, allowing them to do 10, 20, 100 times work and gather resources, with no additional effort.
What was the name of the game that your character stayed logged in even if you logged out?
Did you miss where I said we used scripts to stay logged in?
But, if you are wondering what game still runs my scripts and my player made content long after Log out, that's a pretty long list.
But what game comes to mind first is Neverwinter.
I wrote some dungeons for that game, I wrote the chat, the choices, the encounters, which mobs, where they would spawn, what they would say, if anything, made the maps, and all the little details, by my hand.
I have long since stopped playing that game, it's been years since I logged in, yet people are still playing the dungeon I made, still interacting with my NPCs', killing My Mobs, getting the rewards for playing what I made..
In short.. Long after I left.. People are still playing with my AFK 'self' in game.
So what do you have to say this can't be done, when that game was made 5 years ago.
Making a dungeon with Neverwinter's foundry is not quite on the same level as what CoE wants to achieve
Today I witnessed the most amazing thing ever, I saw a pencil, that's not really quite a pencil. Somehow it had endless amount of lead if you pressed on the miraculous erased embedded on the top endless amount of lead would come out. It was marvelous, technology has really gone far since Jesus of Nazarath was born.
What does this have to do with the conversation here? As much as talking about the first time flying or struggling to buying a used car via contract has to do with it.
I'm confused. Did you just discover mechanical pencils?
Talk about kicking it old school, damn. this guy really is going all out in returning to the MUD roots.
This is is bringing back memories of the AOL days of text MUDs, when we had to have our own front ends and write our own scripts (or copy someone else) to pull this off, and then run the script off our computers, so we technically stayed logged in to do this (given we paid by the Minuit, you can imagine why they wanted us to stay logged in).
Now it has a modern take is that as opposed to using our own front ends and needing to be logged in using up bandwidth, we get set and forget our own AK farm scripts In game, using an In-game editor. Definitely an upgrade.
However, I Hate to break this to you, but nothing new to see here.
This is Just another rehashed old MUD idea, That kind of thing and the tech behind it has been around for decades. How he sucker anyone to think that this this was gonna be ground breaking, new wave super system, or needed some special super OS to pull off, is beyond me, this kind of thing has been going on for decades. Hell, we used to write scripts for EQ when they opened the Merchant Mall (We had to stay logged in.. like WTF, so we scripted that)
In fact, I used to write my own scripts for the MUD's I would play, it was so prevalent that they used to script check us, as like 90% of the game was AFK, and even gave in and made no-rules servers where we could script AFK 24/7 (not like we didn't, but I used to have my script log me out, for a random 6 - 8 hours a day to make it look like I slept at least. Modern farming scripts can be found for major MMO's as well, but they often hack the system and do illegal stuff to work right, so I don't suggest them. AFK farm scripts, AK fight Scripts, Pathing Scripts, none of this is new stuff.
Like for example, Revelations Online, You can autopath to destinations, and then with a simple scrip off Razer you can fight all day and night. So, this is not really "Amazing" as you seem to think it is, it's been done before, a LOT.
Not trying to be mean here, but this is not even quite as impressive as how EQ used to have AI take over your character mid fight if you DC'ed, equip weapons, cast spells and Finnish the combat for you (sometimes you would even win), or better yet, when a Mob charmed you and your character would turn and attack party members, and even run away when low on health into the Mobs territory, that was some epic level stuff, but even that.. still 90's tech.
So, just to get this clear,
You all are really telling me that you don't believe a game system that can run millions of scripts for NPC behaviors, that can react to player actions, and generate engaging combat, won't be able to run some pre-set scripts set by the players themselves?
Well this has been fun.. I laughed.
Still a bad idea IMHO, as script running always turned into a AFK farm fest in the MUDs, gonna bet, it does the same thing here. Even if not used extensively on their main, think about it, if someone can buy a Kingdom they can buy a few extra throw away accounts, set some farm script or whatever, then collect at the end of the year or month or whatever, allowing them to do 10, 20, 100 times work and gather resources, with no additional effort.
What was the name of the game that your character stayed logged in even if you logged out?
Did you miss where I said we used scripts to stay logged in?
But, if you are wondering what game still runs my scripts and my player made content long after Log out, that's a pretty long list.
But what game comes to mind first is Neverwinter.
I wrote some dungeons for that game, I wrote the chat, the choices, the encounters, which mobs, where they would spawn, what they would say, if anything, made the maps, and all the little details, by my hand.
I have long since stopped playing that game, it's been years since I logged in, yet people are still playing the dungeon I made, still interacting with my NPCs', killing My Mobs, getting the rewards for playing what I made..
In short.. Long after I left.. People are still playing with my AFK 'self' in game.
So what do you have to say this can't be done, when that game was made 5 years ago.
Making a dungeon with Neverwinter's foundry is not quite on the same level as what CoE wants to achieve
CoE introduces the concept of Offline Player Characters (OPCs). Whenever you sign off, Artificial Intelligence takes over and plays your character for you. But, we all know AI is never as good as the real thing, so we’re working on a system that allows you to create and trade scripted Behaviors for your characters.
They are not planning to have players toons pass the Turning Test once they log out, or make it so other people don't realize they logged out. CoE will provide nothing more then some canned (or custom made), task driven AFK scripts to allow their player to complete tedious, rudimentary and boring tasks, while they are logged out.
This not some advanced AI or anything of the like.
Neverwinter's Foundry is so far ahead of what CoE is even trying to achieve with this script idea that the Foundry may as well be future tech in comparison.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I'll check in again later to see who gets that participation award OrangeBoy was referrring to. I think the most-insipid-comment-from-assclown-with-zero-talent is yet to come. What other amazing insight will the geniuses who probably couldn't separate dog turds from tanbark offer to the current situation?
Stay tuned, folks!
You criticize people personally for criticizing a company. Why are you allowed to pass judgement, but no one else is? How is that not a double standard? How are you not even more guilty of the very thing you are accusing people of when you hurl such nasty Ad-Homs? No one insulted you personally.
Look, I'm not going to try talking sense into the senseless, but there's a difference between being critical and making it your mission in life to eviscerate a work in progress. So, get off your high horse. The objects of my derision deserve every remark I've made. They asked for it ... in between trying to dry hump over each other for the honor of being the next person to deliver the latest "cool" thing they could say to slam on something they could very well just leave alone. They've made their point, but that's not enough. No, they have to continually bring themselves to orgasm by defecating on it.
You know what I call useless tools? Useless tools. Because that is what they are.
You see the thing is, that is what this forum and website is all about. All day every day people on this website MMORPG.com just shit all over every MMO currently running. So, these people you complain about on here, well - they fit in here. They belong here, they are the majority here.
The real question is why the #$%^ are you here wading in the BS?
That really just makes you even more useless and pathetic than the people you rail against.
tres sad
So the only reason you're here is to shit on games, huh? Yeah, forums exist for more than to make some weenies feel good about themselves by tearing something down. If that's news to you then you learned something new today.
But what if.........
This particular studio is unable to move this game forward? There certainly is enough evidence to cast a large shadow of doubt, that has yet to be proven incorret. So what if @Slapshot1188 is right? Then this project is in jeopardy and yet will continue to happily receive anyone's money knowing full well, they can't deliver.
In that case, Slap is speaking the truth. Regardless of how you think or feel, he speaks the truth. You think he should just shut up and go away because why? You personally don't want to hear it? If he speaks untrue, then all that's needed are facts and slap goes away. Yet for all his "circle jerking" not one claim he's made has been disproved by this project. It should be easy enough for them to do if they have even a modicum of development completed. Where is it?
Don't you think that alone says something? So it gives him enough justification to speak. Yet you don't like it. You don't want to hear it. With all due respect.......who are you to say he should be silent on these forums. If you want him to shut up, go pick something from his laundry list of claims and disprove it.
Well, people have brought up some good examples of some games which have permitted scripting, but I think what makes this different was the original claim of 100K per "server"
As was pointed out, thats a lot of CPU, in the case of Star Citizen they are getting like 25 to 40 players per server. Even Derek Smart posted recently his environment migration of Alganon involved "30" actual pieces of hardware, and that is like for one or two "servers"
CCP utilizes a staggering amount of hardware to pull off their full persistant universe which once hit a maximum of 65K logged in.
I recall several games in the recent past struggling at launch because their servers had to deal with too many "objects" and the solutions included forcibly logging players out after being afk for too long and actually have the npcs "disappear" from the game world if no actual player was nearby to see them.
SpatialIOS seemed like one good solution, just spin up another server in the cloud when demand requires it but it makes sense there's more to it than that, and COE discovered it was an incomplete solution.
They aren't wrong about cost either, my company is jumping into AWS and other cloud services, and cost is a significant factor.
In fact one of the developers on my team came up with a real nice automated testing framework based on AWS which we had planned to use until the company found out what the potential monthly ongoing charges might be. Back to the drawing board and more conventional technology.
I understand they had to make changes, and why, its just they didn't really make any scope or design cut backs when the original plan seemed unrealistic, and seems even more so in light of funding concerns.
They may one day deliver a game, but it would not surprise me at all if it fell well short of the vision and took 8 years to fully launch.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'll check in again later to see who gets that participation award OrangeBoy was referrring to. I think the most-insipid-comment-from-assclown-with-zero-talent is yet to come. What other amazing insight will the geniuses who probably couldn't separate dog turds from tanbark offer to the current situation?
Stay tuned, folks!
You criticize people personally for criticizing a company. Why are you allowed to pass judgement, but no one else is? How is that not a double standard? How are you not even more guilty of the very thing you are accusing people of when you hurl such nasty Ad-Homs? No one insulted you personally.
Look, I'm not going to try talking sense into the senseless, but there's a difference between being critical and making it your mission in life to eviscerate a work in progress. So, get off your high horse. The objects of my derision deserve every remark I've made. They asked for it ... in between trying to dry hump over each other for the honor of being the next person to deliver the latest "cool" thing they could say to slam on something they could very well just leave alone. They've made their point, but that's not enough. No, they have to continually bring themselves to orgasm by defecating on it.
You know what I call useless tools? Useless tools. Because that is what they are.
You see the thing is, that is what this forum and website is all about. All day every day people on this website MMORPG.com just shit all over every MMO currently running. So, these people you complain about on here, well - they fit in here. They belong here, they are the majority here.
The real question is why the #$%^ are you here wading in the BS?
That really just makes you even more useless and pathetic than the people you rail against.
tres sad
So the only reason you're here is to shit on games, huh? Yeah, forums exist for more than to make some weenies feel good about themselves by tearing something down. If that's news to you then you learned something new today.
But what if.........
This particular studio is unable to move this game forward? There certainly is enough evidence to cast a large shadow of doubt, that has yet to be proven incorret. So what if @Slapshot1188 is right? Then this project is in jeopardy and yet will continue to happily receive anyone's money knowing full well, they can't deliver.
In that case, Slap is speaking the truth. Regardless of how you think or feel, he speaks the truth. You think he should just shut up and go away because why? You personally don't want to hear it? If he speaks untrue, then all that's needed are facts and slap goes away. Yet for all his "circle jerking" not one claim he's made has been disproved by this project. It should be easy enough for them to do if they have even a modicum of development completed. Where is it?
Don't you think that alone says something? So it gives him enough justification to speak. Yet you don't like it. You don't want to hear it. With all due respect.......who are you to say he should be silent on these forums. If you want him to shut up, go pick something from his laundry list of claims and disprove it.
Also... I think we are getting off base here. The State of the Studio is that they are unable to land a publisher and just finished a round of layoffs.
Given that... it should be self evident that something needs to change. That’s why I created The Way Forward thread. I gave some ideas on how that can happen. Maybe some are right, maybe someone has better ideas. I’d love to hear those and wish more folks would go respond in that thread than just take the easy way out and bash the Harbinger.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Does anyone like a pessimist even if they are right?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
"The State of the Studio is that they are unable to land a publisher and just finished a round of layoffs." Unfortunately, I think you've addressed your own issue to "The way forward" and why no one has any ideas. SBS needs a publisher.
Does anyone like a pessimist even if they are right?
I understand that you want to be positive. And you may not like the pessimism. However, if this is true, and I believe it is, then SBS it is possibly practicing shady business.
Well, people have brought up some good examples of some games which have permitted scripting, but I think what makes this different was the original claim of 100K per "server"
As was pointed out, thats a lot of CPU, in the case of Star Citizen they are getting like 25 to 40 players per server. Even Derek Smart posted recently his environment migration of Alganon involved "30" actual pieces of hardware, and that is like for one or two "servers"
CCP utilizes a staggering amount of hardware to pull off their full persistant universe which once hit a maximum of 65K logged in.
I recall several games in the recent past struggling at launch because their servers had to deal with too many "objects" and the solutions included forcibly logging players out after being afk for too long and actually have the npcs "disappear" from the game world if no actual player was nearby to see them.
SpatialIOS seemed like one good solution, just spin up another server in the cloud when demand requires it but it makes sense there's more to it than that, and COE discovered it was an incomplete solution.
They aren't wrong about cost either, my company is jumping into AWS and other cloud services, and cost is a significant factor.
In fact one of the developers on my team came up with a real nice automated testing framework based on AWS which we had planned to use until the company found out what the potential monthly ongoing charges might be. Back to the drawing board and more conventional technology.
I understand they had to make changes, and why, its just they didn't really make any scope or design cut backs when the original plan seemed unrealistic, and seems even more so in light of funding concerns.
They may one day deliver a game, but it would not surprise me at all if it fell well short of the vision and took 8 years to fully launch.
Yes, I said 8, I'm probably low.
I'm going to bet there were some "scope" cut backs, but not much on the PR side.
for example.
AFK Scripting Offline Player Characters (OPCs) will still be in the game, just in a much simpler manner. It's not going to turn all our characters into Mini-Hal, and its' really just going to be our characters doing what "Thralls" do in Conan Exiles, while we are logged out.
See they can change The Scope vastly, and still not need to change the basic idea, or change what their PR says.
Also, they have a lot of room for monetization of this feature, IE: You need to pay for it. Ergo, you get like 8 hours of OPC free each day, but if you want more, you need to buy additional blocks of time, perhaps, larger founder packs an KS packs could have this included to sweeten the offers to those people.
Given how many people that would not pay, that would cut down on their overall long term needs to provide this, because now as opposed to it being a feature, it becomes a service that pays for itself, and might also allow them to have something to pitch to a publisher which could replace "Loot boxes" for this game, where players buy AFK Scripted OPC Time Blocks.
Things are kinda fluid at this point.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Does anyone like a pessimist even if they are right?
I understand that you want to be positive. And you may not like the pessimism. However, if this is true, and I believe it is, then SBS it is possibly practicing shady business.
But see, it's not True, until it happens, right now, it's nothing more then a pessimistic outlook, recited endlessly. Even if you agree with their prediction, it makes it no less pessimistic. And if someone is so sure something is going to fail, why not just walk away from it, why hang around and harp upon it endlessly?
As for any truth, given that half their ramblings and objections revolve around tin foil hat mudslinging about ivory towers, and what have you, its like they are playing their own delusional fantasy game around this games development.
Now, If you really look at it, it's more a cry for attention, they want to be head, they want this company to listen due to some self imposed feelings of importance and perhaps they were given a head nod for suggesting an idea that I would wager has already been around for a few decades, and suddenly feel they should have the power to shape the game as a whole, and perhaps got blown off when they pushed too hard, hence their "way forward" post they think is going to change the whole game.
Now, If that is who you want to follow, be my guest, but.. for me. I like games, I enjoy playing games, and I look forward to new and fun games play. To me, CoE is not new in the sense of Online Games, it's more a return to old school MUDs, which I loved playing back in the day.
But, this is just one of many games out there to me, so, I am not going to piss away my life tending an ear to the ramblings of pessimist, if that is what makes you happy and you want to cling that they are prophetic truth speakers, be my guest, but don't expect me to give that decision, or the words you cling to, any respect.
If they end up being right.. Oh well. Guess Ill just have to play something else.. much like what I am doing right now.. playing something else. So my life won't change, as such, I have no reason to humor such negativity.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Does anyone like a pessimist even if they are right?
I understand that you want to be positive. And you may not like the pessimism. However, if this is true, and I believe it is, then SBS it is possibly practicing shady business.
But see, it's not True, until it happens, right now, it's nothing more then a pessimistic outlook, recited endlessly. Even if you agree with their prediction, it makes it no less pessimistic. And if someone is so sure something is going to fail, why not just walk away from it, why hang around and harp upon it endlessly?
As for any truth, given that half their ramblings and objections revolve around tin foil hat mudslinging about ivory towers, and what have you, its like they are playing their own delusional fantasy game around this games development.
Now, If you really look at it, it's more a cry for attention, they want to be head, they want this company to listen due to some self imposed feelings of importance and perhaps they were given a head nod for suggesting an idea that I would wager has already been around for a few decades, and suddenly feel they should have the power to shape the game as a whole, and perhaps got blown off when they pushed too hard, hence their "way forward" post they think is going to change the whole game.
Now, If that is who you want to follow, be my guest, but.. for me. I like games, I enjoy playing games, and I look forward to new and fun games play. To me, CoE is not new in the sense of Online Games, it's more a return to old school MUDs, which I loved playing back in the day.
But, this is just one of many games out there to me, so, I am not going to piss away my life tending an ear to the ramblings of pessimist, if that is what makes you happy and you want to cling that they are prophetic truth speakers, be my guest, but don't expect me to give that decision, or the words you cling to, any respect.
If they end up being right.. Oh well. Guess Ill just have to play something else.. much like what I am doing right now.. playing something else. So my life won't change, as such, I have no reason to humor such negativity.
Negativity?!? I don't know about you but I LOVE a good dumpster fire.
Comments
That is a part that makes one an armchair developer.
So.. with that put out.
I concede.. to their vast and endless knowledge on this subject.
...not that Caspien's word has ever been very trustworthy, of course.
I made a persistent world server for Neverwinter Nights 2 so your not the only one, congratulations!
Also scripting a bot is not exactly hard.
Your still full of it when you act like what they are going to do has ever been done on the scale they are aiming for.
I'll believe it when I see it.
I'm sure with 3 less employees and no spatialOS it will be a walk in the park.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I don't have to know everything, I just need to know more than you.
Piece of cake.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well to make this argument somewhat real take into account that the server is running a bot and not the client. The bot has to run at a sync of the server so lets suppose that just for instance a server is stressed tested with 100 bots (server side generated clients) which is kind of high on single 2 core server and each iteration of the loop has to execute in 10 milliseconds. If the bot is to be believable the code is designed to randomize the actions. Actions were run, decide on collision( static AI), Continual run test ( active AI), harvest random nodes(built this code myself), attack random mobs and guards. A good example of bot testing in Bigworlds indie engine allowed you to do it through python script. I had this engine for a lot of testing on single 2 core server so by single instance I could somewhat determine how much additional servers I would need to support 1500 CCU.
This also had to include AI for 250 monsters and 20 or so guards around the encampment. The entire area of this test bed is 2 KM square or approx. 4 square KM. Which would only occur once since in a sense these are also bots but his is a typical zone(not in the same sense as a zone but a area of the server cluster).
Now we are not taking instanced spawning here where ever spawn is a copy such as the orc example but the actual bot AI which was designed to stress the server to the breaking point where action from all the things going on tend to backup into the system to where it stops functional processing since it can't pass the workload from one instance to another core processor.
(Keep in mind BWT engine is a highly scalable engine based on cores so it is considered a cluster server. I might also add if it weren't for the ridiculous cost of $500,000 I would have continued development and had war gaming not fucked us indies so bad, I may even have continued as a indie version)
Initial test was me as a client and 10 bots. The process was a success so I added in 10 more bots it was success so I added 10 more bots. This was the start of the complaint from the server log that says HEY! I am ending execution after starting a new loop. It would slowly start backing up until it reached the point after 45 minutes where it stopped taking input from my real client and I got kicked.
So by best comparisons of data from the log a single 2 core server was to back it off 25% so what they said in the documentation was really accurate to what a core could do. The best case is 20 to 40 clients per core. A full 6 core machine may be able to handle ONE instance of the server code and 120 to 160 clients. So for 1500 CCU I would need a least 10 to 12 servers in the cluster.
That is factual data not made up estimated which is tested under a real server.
Now lets take this into account from a server build by a highly skilled team of people which is around 30 and most of them are MA and a few PhD. They claim the approximate of 20 to 40 clients per core depending on existing game design and they are pretty accurate.
How many servers do you think it would take to run 100,000 clients?
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
What does this have to do with the conversation here? As much as talking about the first time flying or struggling to buying a used car via contract has to do with it.
Best wishes.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I want you read this.
They are not planning to have players toons pass the Turning Test once they log out, or make it so other people don't realize they logged out. CoE will provide nothing more then some canned (or custom made), task driven AFK scripts to allow their player to complete tedious, rudimentary and boring tasks, while they are logged out.
This not some advanced AI or anything of the like.Neverwinter's Foundry is so far ahead of what CoE is even trying to achieve with this script idea that the Foundry may as well be future tech in comparison.
This particular studio is unable to move this game forward? There certainly is enough evidence to cast a large shadow of doubt, that has yet to be proven incorret. So what if @Slapshot1188
is right? Then this project is in jeopardy and yet will continue to happily receive anyone's money knowing full well, they can't deliver.
In that case, Slap is speaking the truth. Regardless of how you think or feel, he speaks the truth. You think he should just shut up and go away because why? You personally don't want to hear it?
If he speaks untrue, then all that's needed are facts and slap goes away. Yet for all his "circle jerking" not one claim he's made has been disproved by this project. It should be easy enough for them to do if they have even a modicum of development completed. Where is it?
Don't you think that alone says something? So it gives him enough justification to speak. Yet you don't like it. You don't want to hear it. With all due respect.......who are you to say he should be silent on these forums. If you want him to shut up, go pick something from his laundry list of claims and disprove it.
As was pointed out, thats a lot of CPU, in the case of Star Citizen they are getting like 25 to 40 players per server. Even Derek Smart posted recently his environment migration of Alganon involved "30" actual pieces of hardware, and that is like for one or two "servers"
CCP utilizes a staggering amount of hardware to pull off their full persistant universe which once hit a maximum of 65K logged in.
I recall several games in the recent past struggling at launch because their servers had to deal with too many "objects" and the solutions included forcibly logging players out after being afk for too long and actually have the npcs "disappear" from the game world if no actual player was nearby to see them.
SpatialIOS seemed like one good solution, just spin up another server in the cloud when demand requires it but it makes sense there's more to it than that, and COE discovered it was an incomplete solution.
They aren't wrong about cost either, my company is jumping into AWS and other cloud services, and cost is a significant factor.
In fact one of the developers on my team came up with a real nice automated testing framework based on AWS which we had planned to use until the company found out what the potential monthly ongoing charges might be. Back to the drawing board and more conventional technology.
I understand they had to make changes, and why, its just they didn't really make any scope or design cut backs when the original plan seemed unrealistic, and seems even more so in light of funding concerns.
They may one day deliver a game, but it would not surprise me at all if it fell well short of the vision and took 8 years to fully launch.
Yes, I said 8, I'm probably low.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Given that... it should be self evident that something needs to change. That’s why I created The Way Forward thread. I gave some ideas on how that can happen. Maybe some are right, maybe someone has better ideas. I’d love to hear those and wish more folks would go respond in that thread than just take the easy way out and bash the Harbinger.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Does anyone like a pessimist even if they are right?
You stated,
"The State of the Studio is that they are unable to land a publisher and just finished a round of layoffs." Unfortunately, I think you've addressed your own issue to "The way forward" and why no one has any ideas. SBS needs a publisher.
for example.
See they can change The Scope vastly, and still not need to change the basic idea, or change what their PR says.
Also, they have a lot of room for monetization of this feature, IE: You need to pay for it. Ergo, you get like 8 hours of OPC free each day, but if you want more, you need to buy additional blocks of time, perhaps, larger founder packs an KS packs could have this included to sweeten the offers to those people.
Given how many people that would not pay, that would cut down on their overall long term needs to provide this, because now as opposed to it being a feature, it becomes a service that pays for itself, and might also allow them to have something to pitch to a publisher which could replace "Loot boxes" for this game, where players buy AFK Scripted OPC Time Blocks.
Things are kinda fluid at this point.
As for any truth, given that half their ramblings and objections revolve around tin foil hat mudslinging about ivory towers, and what have you, its like they are playing their own delusional fantasy game around this games development.
Now, If you really look at it, it's more a cry for attention, they want to be head, they want this company to listen due to some self imposed feelings of importance and perhaps they were given a head nod for suggesting an idea that I would wager has already been around for a few decades, and suddenly feel they should have the power to shape the game as a whole, and perhaps got blown off when they pushed too hard, hence their "way forward" post they think is going to change the whole game.
Now, If that is who you want to follow, be my guest, but.. for me. I like games, I enjoy playing games, and I look forward to new and fun games play. To me, CoE is not new in the sense of Online Games, it's more a return to old school MUDs, which I loved playing back in the day.
But, this is just one of many games out there to me, so, I am not going to piss away my life tending an ear to the ramblings of pessimist, if that is what makes you happy and you want to cling that they are prophetic truth speakers, be my guest, but don't expect me to give that decision, or the words you cling to, any respect.
If they end up being right.. Oh well. Guess Ill just have to play something else.. much like what I am doing right now.. playing something else. So my life won't change, as such, I have no reason to humor such negativity.
Elementary logic 101.