Originally posted by nothing2gein The EMU is possible.
There is a EMU for:
WoW EQ MU RF EQ2 LIN LIN2 and I'm missing a few
So it can certainly be done
Also alot of the private servers do not use quests from the live servers so that gets them out of some trouble
I'll have to check the Wow emu server out, as that was established as an IP before the mmorpg was made. The rest of them made their IP off of coding that was done to present the game, which I will admit I can't speak to the legal repurcussions of emuing off of software that is of itself it's IP.
I'd like to see if there are any Matrix online emu's to be honest. That would hold a lot more merit than talking about emus based on a game world as compared to a real world IP.
I was in the dark at one time as well. The only things you need know are...
1) SWG EMU is real
2) SWG EMU is legal (Look at EQ EMU)
3) SWG EMU will work (the original devs were not GODS) It can be rebuilt.
3) SWG EMU will happen in the near future
The real test of all this is TIME!...It will tell!!!
Lol, I hope you are right here LAW, I'd love to play me some old school SWG.
Usually when I'm wrong I'm just flat out wrong, such as 'the vikings are a good superbowl contender this year!' Or 'she won't want me to call the next day!', or 'that smells fine, I can wear it again' kinda stuff....
Like you said, only time will tell... And I kinda hope I'm wrong, I have this itch to play my droid eng/fencer again....
Originally posted by jandrsn Originally posted by LAW!
It's OK brother...
I was in the dark at one time as well. The only things you need know are...
1) SWG EMU is real
2) SWG EMU is legal (Look at EQ EMU)
3) SWG EMU will work (the original devs were not GODS) It can be rebuilt.
3) SWG EMU will happen in the near future
The real test of all this is TIME!...It will tell!!!
Lol, I hope you are right here LAW, I'd love to play me some old school SWG.
Usually when I'm wrong I'm just flat out wrong, such as 'the vikings are a good superbowl contender this year!' Or 'she won't want me to call the next day!', or 'that smells fine, I can wear it again' kinda stuff....
Like you said, only time will tell... And I kinda hope I'm wrong, I have this itch to play my droid eng/fencer again....
Originally posted by Wildcat84 Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Wildcat84 4. Steal the client (they are already telling people to go buy the client)
Hmm. How do you legally obtain a pre-cu client? It's not available for download anymore.
If you buy the starter kit you have the pre-Cu client, JTL, and the CU patches and the NGE patches.
The emulator will patch over those so that you are reverted to a 12.1 client. The files are all there. Go look in your SWG directory sometime, you will see all the patches.
SWG is made out of data files and client executable.
The executable defines (among other things) the protocol used. This protocol has been changed with CU as well as with NGE, with latest change ocuring in february 2006 (IIRC).
The data files (tre) have changed with CU (pub 16).
The exe file you receive with Starter Kit is almost certainly not the one from pub 12.1. Due to the nature of the protocol used, different versions of protocols are not even slightly compatible.
Even if you do obtain the pub 12.1, it will not be able to read the post pub 16 tre file format. An emu may not modify the data files, since that does go against the copyright. And you/they are also forbidden from distributing those files in any form, once again, due to copyright.
OK, I don't have the starter kit, so I can't verify this, but things seem a bit fishy here. Why would Starter Kit installer have only 12.1 (out of all publishes) files and executable, since 12.1 wasn't even a milestone build. Especially, since the data format used by later patches is different.
Yes, the raw data (tre files) are there, they still are with all distributions. But without the executable, it's a moot point.
Originally posted by nothing2gein The EMU is possible.
There is a EMU for:
WoW EQ MU RF EQ2 LIN LIN2 and I'm missing a few
So it can certainly be done
Also alot of the private servers do not use quests from the live servers so that gets them out of some trouble
YES!!! Big bump for common sense... Finally, someone who gets it. Not only is it possible...IT IS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE WORLD! It will happen with SWG EMU weather you want it or not...I can say it with 100% confidence.
er... Can I just remind you some of those EMUs have been taken to court and shut down?
I'd also like to point out that Q4 2007 is a LONG way away and common sense in the coding world is to keep your mouth shut about something until it's done and installed on a computer.
I'll believe it when I see it. If I see it I'll pat them on the back and go back to playing the heap of next gen MMOs we're getting in 2007.
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Wildcat84 Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Wildcat84 4. Steal the client (they are already telling people to go buy the client)
Hmm. How do you legally obtain a pre-cu client? It's not available for download anymore.
If you buy the starter kit you have the pre-Cu client, JTL, and the CU patches and the NGE patches.
The emulator will patch over those so that you are reverted to a 12.1 client. The files are all there. Go look in your SWG directory sometime, you will see all the patches.
SWG is made out of data files and client executable.
The executable defines (among other things) the protocol used. This protocol has been changed with CU as well as with NGE, with latest change ocuring in february 2006 (IIRC).
The data files (tre) have changed with CU (pub 16).
The exe file you receive with Starter Kit is almost certainly not the one from pub 12.1. Due to the nature of the protocol used, different versions of protocols are not even slightly compatible.
Even if you do obtain the pub 12.1, it will not be able to read the post pub 16 tre file format. An emu may not modify the data files, since that does go against the copyright. And you/they are also forbidden from distributing those files in any form, once again, due to copyright.
OK, I don't have the starter kit, so I can't verify this, but things seem a bit fishy here. Why would Starter Kit installer have only 12.1 (out of all publishes) files and executable, since 12.1 wasn't even a milestone build. Especially, since the data format used by later patches is different.
Yes, the raw data (tre files) are there, they still are with all distributions. But without the executable, it's a moot point.
The point is not moot...
The original Devs were not in any way special...This game can be rebuilt from the ground up by normal people. Try for a moment to open your mind and ask yourself...
* Is the SWG emu possible to create?
The point is, SWG EMU is real and will be up and running as early as Q4 2007 or Q3 2008.
Originally posted by Spathotan Originally posted by oreyi Originally posted by SpathotanIf its in Europe they will have to deal with Interpol. Id rather eat broken glass and drink freon than have Interpol on my ass. And if they have it in a country that isnt part of Interpol thats just as bad, because that basically leaves them with just crackdown countries that WILL do something about it, wether or not it breaks their laws or not. They dont want that shit in their country. **EDIT** Here is a list of all the countries that are members of Interpol. After you read that extensive list and notice there are no worthwhile countries left off the list, go and read up on everything they enforce. Then come back here and tell me this shit is legal.
Interesting... I remember meeting an old friend and telling me about a server for Lineage 2 in Argentina... So I guess Interpol gives a shit about emulators... Yay! Just because its there dosent make it legal. If Jane the whore has 4 pounds of cocaine lined up on her table in America does that make it legal?
Maybe not legal, but it does make Jane the most popular whore in her town.....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Has anybody faced with a court case from LucasFilm/LucasArts ever won (I'm not talking just game EMU's here)? No, I don't think it's Sony you'd need to be worried about, LucasArts should be your big fear. They are fairly ruthless when it comes to the Star Wars IP
Actually - here is what the future holds for any emu. Any overt one is taken down - not because there is any actual ruling but rather the costs of going to court is enough to shut down any home based operation let alone most moderate sized companies. So going overt will get you taken down via financial means. Now however, should someone win a 200 million dollar lottery - then I am sure the emu debate would go into court and be fought out fairly.
All this is besides the point. Truth is that EMUs are possible. Truth is that they are out there. The fact of the matter is they will have to be private based or covert. Fight Club-ish so to speak. Posting your existence on the web will get you botted in no time. And pretty soon the letters come.
My friends and I used to always lament that what we really wanted for out guild was our own EQ server (many moons ago). There our friends and guildies could not have to deal with campers and griefers and so on. I am sure we are not the only set of people that wanted this. The future of the EMU is to be a private server - played on by smaller groups of people. There in the privacy of their own little network - such legal battles would be avoided. The EMU files will make their way to file sharing agents like Morpheus and such and downloaded along with pirated mp3 songs that are also legal trouble. All of which protected by the likes of Peer Guardian.
The EQ emu sites seem to infer this as well. Keep it secret, keep it safe. SWGEmu may be making a mistake as it seems to be self serving and hording the glory for what appears to be servers in their control. This provides a single point of attack and is a big mistake. SWG emulation will be a success if they make the server files and means of operation obtainable and playable to the public via other sites and file agents. However, should they maintain an iron fist grip - we will have to wait for a splinter group to share what we want. After that, whole guilds will reunite and private servers will flourish. Much like the Pamela Anderson tapes - yes you can seek to shut them down one at a time but pretty soon there are too many reign in.
Originally posted by Obraik As any body faced with a court case from LucasFilm/LucasArts ever won (I'm not talking just game EMU's here)? No, I don't think it's Sony you'd need to be worried about, LucasArts should be your big fear. They are fairly ruthless when it comes to the Star Wars IP
I believe you are correct sir.....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Has anybody faced with a court case from LucasFilm/LucasArts ever won (I'm not talking just game EMU's here)? No, I don't think it's Sony you'd need to be worried about, LucasArts should be your big fear. They are fairly ruthless when it comes to the Star Wars IP
What about that Indian clone film of Star Wars? I've seen it over there still, and I think it's many years old. And that country seems to consume a lot of films
So, LucasArts is loosing a lot of money there maybe?
STOP HERE AND READ PLEASE: As most of you know I hate $OE, $LA, and the current state of the game WITH A PASSION. I am not happy spending $1,200.00 and investing over 3900 hours of time playing SWG to have everything i had accomplished and paid for wiped out by the NGE. However, in being an adult I must look at all the facts and draw my conclusions from that. So there is a certain amount of pain and/or sadness I am feeling due to this decision by the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals.
Please read on:
I really do not understand why people think a SWG EMU will happen? The only chance a SWG EMU has is if it is done in another country. The 8th Circuit Court of Appeals has spoken and they have AFFIRMED (means agreed with) a lower courts ruling that a WoW EMU was illegal.
The ruling from the 3 Federal Appeals Court Judges:
The above court document, which is the ruling handed down from Judge Smith from the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals, is a Summary Judgement that "AFFIRMED" the ruling from the U.S. District Court.
Summary Judgement means:
A court order ruling that no factual issues remain to be tried and therefore a cause of action or all causes of action in a complaint can be decided upon certain facts without trial. A summary judgment is based upon a motion by one of the parties that contends that all necessary factual issues are settled or so one-sided they need not be tried. The motion is supported by declarations under oath, excerpts from depositions which are under oath, admissions of fact and other discovery, as well as a legal argument (points and authorities), that argue that there are no triable issues of fact and that the settled facts require a summary judgment for the moving party. The opposing party will respond by counter-declarations and legal arguments attempting to show that there are "triable issues of fact." If it is unclear whether there is a triable issue of fact in any cause of action, then summary judgment must be denied as to that cause of action. The theory behind the summary judgment process is to eliminate the need to try settled factual issues and to decide without trial one or more causes of action in the complaint. The pleading procedures are extremely technical and complicated and are particularly dangerous to the party against whom the motion is made.
It appears that the people creating the WoW EMU, Tim Jung and Rob Crittenden, had appealed the lower courts ruling against them to the Federal Appeals court. When they filed the appeal, Blizzards corporate lawyers filed a motion for a Summary Judgement (actually both parties did). After the 3 Judges that read prepared statements and briefs from BOTH parties, the judges GRANTED Blizzards Corporate Lawyers thier Summary Judgement.
That meant that Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden have not presented anything of any substance that would pursuade the Appeals Court Judges to go forward with thier appeal. This means they were squashed before it ever went to trial.
What amazes me is that NO ONE in this tread has read the decision by the Appeals court judges. In this decision it plainly states that Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden had circumvented the copyright protection system of the WoW product. Meaning that in the process of what they had or were trying to accomplish they had found a way around the CD Key which is how software is protected from illegal duplication.
It is the inability of Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden product to be able to identify if the client software that is connecting to their server as a legal or illegal copy. This may only be possible by the software manufacturer as only they know all the CD Keys.
HOWEVER, I would venture to say, that even if Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden could develope some way to do this, that Blizzard would then be able to sue for monetary damages. Course this is a moot point as Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden never got over the first problem with the CD Keys.
I do not know why or how any other EMUs are able to function. I was only aware of one, UO or AO which ever one it is. It could be the EMUs are in a differrent country that has different copyright laws (or none at all) and thus these people are able to get away with it. All I know is that IF they are in the USA, they may not be up much longer.
I wish this were not so ....
Sago Mactow Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet 6/26/03 - 1/26/06 Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect DFR Councilman Tarq Server
Originally posted by LAW! Originally posted by nothing2gein The EMU is possible.There is a EMU for:WoWEQMURF EQ2LINLIN2and I'm missing a fewSo it can certainly be done Also alot of the private servers do not use quests from the live servers so that gets them out of some trouble YES!!! Big bump for common sense... Finally, someone who gets it. Not only is it possible...IT IS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE WORLD! It will happen with SWG EMU weather you want it or not...I can say it with 100% confidence.
People steal stuff all the time, that doesn't make theft legal or justified. I believe you're just trying to convince yourself that you're not stealing, and that because other people do it, it's ok.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
As I recall, the SWG EMU team are in a foreign country, but I don't remember which one. From a legal standpoint, they may be able to do this, but that really won't matter in the slightest. From a technical standpoint, they can't do it. Not because it's impossible, but because those particular individuals have no clue what they're doing.
SWG Tempest: Cardo Dycen RIP Eve: Cardoh Dycen I support random drug testing for all SOE employees
Originally posted by nothing2gein The EMU is possible.There is a EMU for:WoWEQMURF EQ2LINLIN2and I'm missing a fewSo it can certainly be done Also alot of the private servers do not use quests from the live servers so that gets them out of some trouble YES!!! Big bump for common sense... Finally, someone who gets it. Not only is it possible...IT IS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE WORLD! It will happen with SWG EMU weather you want it or not...I can say it with 100% confidence.
People steal stuff all the time, that doesn't make theft legal or justified. I believe you're just trying to convince yourself that you're not stealing, and that because other people do it, it's ok.
Thats what it looks like to me.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now." Boba Fett
Originally posted by WoodenDummy Originally posted by LAW!
Originally posted by nothing2gein The EMU is possible.
There is a EMU for:
WoW EQ MU RF EQ2 LIN LIN2 and I'm missing a few
So it can certainly be done
Also alot of the private servers do not use quests from the live servers so that gets them out of some trouble
YES!!! Big bump for common sense... Finally, someone who gets it. Not only is it possible...IT IS HAPPENING ALL OVER THE WORLD! It will happen with SWG EMU weather you want it or not...I can say it with 100% confidence.
er... Can I just remind you some of those EMUs have been taken to court and shut down?
I'd also like to point out that Q4 2007 is a LONG way away and common sense in the coding world is to keep your mouth shut about something until it's done and installed on a computer.
I'll believe it when I see it. If I see it I'll pat them on the back and go back to playing the heap of next gen MMOs we're getting in 2007.
I realize that. I'm just saying it is possible. They can shut down the EMU but the private servers always keep popping up.
Remmeber Winter's Roar was shut down by Sony and then Shards of Dalaya popped up. It is really hard for companies to keep up with the amount of servers out there. They really shouldn't be concerned (unless you SWG) because the private servers are really sub-par with lots of bugs (most of them anyway). SWG is a different story because people are creating an EMU purposly to get back to an old version of the game (which has never happened before). SWG: NGE will get hit hard if this EMU is released.
So SoE will probably be hunting for these servers so I don't see servers lasting long. There will always be those loyalists that stay with NGE and turn in the private servers to SoE. So I don't know about the future of Pre-CU outside of SoE.
Not trying to be selfish, but as long as my girlfriend, our friends and myself have a game to play together again, I would host the game on a server for our IPs only. $ONY has no real chance of finding it, unless they snatch the body of one of my friends.
Originally posted by kefkah Actually - here is what the future holds for any emu. Any overt one is taken down - not because there is any actual ruling but rather the costs of going to court is enough to shut down any home based operation let alone most moderate sized companies. So going overt will get you taken down via financial means. Now however, should someone win a 200 million dollar lottery - then I am sure the emu debate would go into court and be fought out fairly. All this is besides the point. Truth is that EMUs are possible. Truth is that they are out there. The fact of the matter is they will have to be private based or covert. Fight Club-ish so to speak. Posting your existence on the web will get you botted in no time. And pretty soon the letters come. My friends and I used to always lament that what we really wanted for out guild was our own EQ server (many moons ago). There our friends and guildies could not have to deal with campers and griefers and so on. I am sure we are not the only set of people that wanted this. The future of the EMU is to be a private server - played on by smaller groups of people. There in the privacy of their own little network - such legal battles would be avoided. The EMU files will make their way to file sharing agents like Morpheus and such and downloaded along with pirated mp3 songs that are also legal trouble. All of which protected by the likes of Peer Guardian. The EQ emu sites seem to infer this as well. Keep it secret, keep it safe. SWGEmu may be making a mistake as it seems to be self serving and hording the glory for what appears to be servers in their control. This provides a single point of attack and is a big mistake. SWG emulation will be a success if they make the server files and means of operation obtainable and playable to the public via other sites and file agents. However, should they maintain an iron fist grip - we will have to wait for a splinter group to share what we want. After that, whole guilds will reunite and private servers will flourish. Much like the Pamela Anderson tapes - yes you can seek to shut them down one at a time but pretty soon there are too many reign in. Kef
Originally posted by Sago STOP HERE AND READ PLEASE: As most of you know I hate $OE, $LA, and the current state of the game WITH A PASSION. I am not happy spending $1,200.00 and investing over 3900 hours of time playing SWG to have everything i had accomplished and paid for wiped out by the NGE. However, in being an adult I must look at all the facts and draw my conclusions from that. So there is a certain amount of pain and/or sadness I am feeling due to this decision by the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals. Please read on: I really do not understand why people think a SWG EMU will happen? The only chance a SWG EMU has is if it is done in another country. The 8th Circuit Court of Appeals has spoken and they have AFFIRMED (means agreed with) a lower courts ruling that a WoW EMU was illegal. The ruling from the 3 Federal Appeals Court Judges: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/8th/043654p.pdf The above court document, which is the ruling handed down from Judge Smith from the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals, is a Summary Judgement that "AFFIRMED" the ruling from the U.S. District Court. Summary Judgement means: A court order ruling that no factual issues remain to be tried and therefore a cause of action or all causes of action in a complaint can be decided upon certain facts without trial. A summary judgment is based upon a motion by one of the parties that contends that all necessary factual issues are settled or so one-sided they need not be tried. The motion is supported by declarations under oath, excerpts from depositions which are under oath, admissions of fact and other discovery, as well as a legal argument (points and authorities), that argue that there are no triable issues of fact and that the settled facts require a summary judgment for the moving party. The opposing party will respond by counter-declarations and legal arguments attempting to show that there are "triable issues of fact." If it is unclear whether there is a triable issue of fact in any cause of action, then summary judgment must be denied as to that cause of action. The theory behind the summary judgment process is to eliminate the need to try settled factual issues and to decide without trial one or more causes of action in the complaint. The pleading procedures are extremely technical and complicated and are particularly dangerous to the party against whom the motion is made. It appears that the people creating the WoW EMU, Tim Jung and Rob Crittenden, had appealed the lower courts ruling against them to the Federal Appeals court. When they filed the appeal, Blizzards corporate lawyers filed a motion for a Summary Judgement (actually both parties did). After the 3 Judges that read prepared statements and briefs from BOTH parties, the judges GRANTED Blizzards Corporate Lawyers thier Summary Judgement. That meant that Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden have not presented anything of any substance that would pursuade the Appeals Court Judges to go forward with thier appeal. This means they were squashed before it ever went to trial. What amazes me is that NO ONE in this tread has read the decision by the Appeals court judges. In this decision it plainly states that Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden had circumvented the copyright protection system of the WoW product. Meaning that in the process of what they had or were trying to accomplish they had found a way around the CD Key which is how software is protected from illegal duplication. It is the inability of Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden product to be able to identify if the client software that is connecting to their server as a legal or illegal copy. This may only be possible by the software manufacturer as only they know all the CD Keys. HOWEVER, I would venture to say, that even if Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden could develope some way to do this, that Blizzard would then be able to sue for monetary damages. Course this is a moot point as Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden never got over the first problem with the CD Keys. I do not know why or how any other EMUs are able to function. I was only aware of one, UO or AO which ever one it is. It could be the EMUs are in a differrent country that has different copyright laws (or none at all) and thus these people are able to get away with it. All I know is that IF they are in the USA, they may not be up much longer. I wish this were not so ....
Nice post...
You failed to address two (2) points...
1) Why is OK for EVERQUEST to be Reverse Engineered and not SWG?
2) Why is it that an EVERQUEST EMU is OK and not SWG?
The point here is that what the EQ EMU is doing is completely legal and there is nothing SOE can do about it. If they could take any kind of legal action what so ever...THEY WOULD!!!
Do you think for one moment that SOE would allow even one SUB to go to an EMU? Don't you think, they would just bring a lawsuit and stop the activity? Do you know why the EQ EMU is still up?....
Would you knock it off with the EverQuest comparison? We get the point, youve brought it up in every one of your post in this thread, we know all about it, and you arent the first to spread the word. We also know that EverQuest wasnt completely gutted from the inside out and a shittier game put in its place. With EQ you are dealing with changing A to A. With this SWG EMU you are dealing with Changing C to A and somehow figuring out how to ignore B.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now." Boba Fett
Originally posted by Spathotan Would you knock it off with the EverQuest comparison? We get the point, youve brought it up in every one of your post in this thread, we know all about it, and you arent the first to spread the word. We also know that EverQuest wasnt completely gutted from the inside out and a shittier game put in its place. With EQ you are dealing with changing A to A. With this SWG EMU you are dealing with Changing C to A and somehow figuring out how to ignore B.
But can you tell me why?...thats all I wish to know
The thing is...
1) They are both MMORPGs.
2) They are both owned by SONY.
3) They both used / using revervse engineering.
4) SOE has stated, they do not care about EMUs.
5) SOE CSRs have said it is possible to have an EMU
5) SOE has taken NO action to stop the EQ EMU or SWG EMU teams.
6) SONY is known for bringing IP lawsuits at a drop of a hat...Yet the EQ EMU continues...why?
All I am saying is...The SWG EMU is as Legal as the EQ EMU. Regardless of the tech issuses involved with rebuilding such a game...IT IS STILL VERY MUCH LEGAL.
Originally posted by LAW! Originally posted by Spathotan Would you knock it off with the EverQuest comparison? We get the point, youve brought it up in every one of your post in this thread, we know all about it, and you arent the first to spread the word. We also know that EverQuest wasnt completely gutted from the inside out and a shittier game put in its place. With EQ you are dealing with changing A to A. With this SWG EMU you are dealing with Changing C to A and somehow figuring out how to ignore B.
But can you tell me why?...thats all I wish to know
The thing is...
1) They are both MMORPGs.
2) They are both owned by SONY.
3) They both used / using revervse engineering.
4) SOE has stated, they do not care about EMUs.
5) SOE CSRs have said it is possible to have an EMU
5) SOE has taken NO action to stop the EQ EMU or SWG EMU teams.
6) SONY is known for bringing IP lawsuits at a drop of a hat...Yet the EQ EMU continues...why?
All I am saying is...The SWG EMU is as Legal as the EQ EMU. Regardless of the tech issuses involved with rebuilding such a game...IT IS STILL VERY MUCH LEGAL.
Man, if I knew why I wouldnt be in this thread, id be a lawyer or a coder.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now." Boba Fett
Comments
I'll have to check the Wow emu server out, as that was established as an IP before the mmorpg was made. The rest of them made their IP off of coding that was done to present the game, which I will admit I can't speak to the legal repurcussions of emuing off of software that is of itself it's IP.
I'd like to see if there are any Matrix online emu's to be honest. That would hold a lot more merit than talking about emus based on a game world as compared to a real world IP.
It's OK brother...
I was in the dark at one time as well. The only things you need know are...
1) SWG EMU is real
2) SWG EMU is legal (Look at EQ EMU)
3) SWG EMU will work (the original devs were not GODS) It can be rebuilt.
3) SWG EMU will happen in the near future
The real test of all this is TIME!...It will tell!!!
Lol, I hope you are right here LAW, I'd love to play me some old school SWG.
Usually when I'm wrong I'm just flat out wrong, such as 'the vikings are a good superbowl contender this year!' Or 'she won't want me to call the next day!', or 'that smells fine, I can wear it again' kinda stuff....
Like you said, only time will tell... And I kinda hope I'm wrong, I have this itch to play my droid eng/fencer again....
It's OK brother...
I was in the dark at one time as well. The only things you need know are...
1) SWG EMU is real
2) SWG EMU is legal (Look at EQ EMU)
3) SWG EMU will work (the original devs were not GODS) It can be rebuilt.
3) SWG EMU will happen in the near future
The real test of all this is TIME!...It will tell!!!
Lol, I hope you are right here LAW, I'd love to play me some old school SWG.
Usually when I'm wrong I'm just flat out wrong, such as 'the vikings are a good superbowl contender this year!' Or 'she won't want me to call the next day!', or 'that smells fine, I can wear it again' kinda stuff....
Like you said, only time will tell... And I kinda hope I'm wrong, I have this itch to play my droid eng/fencer again....
we can only hope...
/deep bow
/deep bow
Good God, I almost forgot about those; we do need a swg emu server!
If you buy the starter kit you have the pre-Cu client, JTL, and the CU patches and the NGE patches.
The emulator will patch over those so that you are reverted to a 12.1 client. The files are all there. Go look in your SWG directory sometime, you will see all the patches.
SWG is made out of data files and client executable.
The executable defines (among other things) the protocol used. This protocol has been changed with CU as well as with NGE, with latest change ocuring in february 2006 (IIRC).
The data files (tre) have changed with CU (pub 16).
The exe file you receive with Starter Kit is almost certainly not the one from pub 12.1. Due to the nature of the protocol used, different versions of protocols are not even slightly compatible.
Even if you do obtain the pub 12.1, it will not be able to read the post pub 16 tre file format. An emu may not modify the data files, since that does go against the copyright. And you/they are also forbidden from distributing those files in any form, once again, due to copyright.
OK, I don't have the starter kit, so I can't verify this, but things seem a bit fishy here. Why would Starter Kit installer have only 12.1 (out of all publishes) files and executable, since 12.1 wasn't even a milestone build. Especially, since the data format used by later patches is different.
Yes, the raw data (tre files) are there, they still are with all distributions. But without the executable, it's a moot point.
er... Can I just remind you some of those EMUs have been taken to court and shut down?
I'd also like to point out that Q4 2007 is a LONG way away and common sense in the coding world is to keep your mouth shut about something until it's done and installed on a computer.
I'll believe it when I see it. If I see it I'll pat them on the back and go back to playing the heap of next gen MMOs we're getting in 2007.
If you buy the starter kit you have the pre-Cu client, JTL, and the CU patches and the NGE patches.
The emulator will patch over those so that you are reverted to a 12.1 client. The files are all there. Go look in your SWG directory sometime, you will see all the patches.
SWG is made out of data files and client executable.
The executable defines (among other things) the protocol used. This protocol has been changed with CU as well as with NGE, with latest change ocuring in february 2006 (IIRC).
The data files (tre) have changed with CU (pub 16).
The exe file you receive with Starter Kit is almost certainly not the one from pub 12.1. Due to the nature of the protocol used, different versions of protocols are not even slightly compatible.
Even if you do obtain the pub 12.1, it will not be able to read the post pub 16 tre file format. An emu may not modify the data files, since that does go against the copyright. And you/they are also forbidden from distributing those files in any form, once again, due to copyright.
OK, I don't have the starter kit, so I can't verify this, but things seem a bit fishy here. Why would Starter Kit installer have only 12.1 (out of all publishes) files and executable, since 12.1 wasn't even a milestone build. Especially, since the data format used by later patches is different.
Yes, the raw data (tre files) are there, they still are with all distributions. But without the executable, it's a moot point.
The point is not moot...
The original Devs were not in any way special...This game can be rebuilt from the ground up by normal people. Try for a moment to open your mind and ask yourself...
* Is the SWG emu possible to create?
The point is, SWG EMU is real and will be up and running as early as Q4 2007 or Q3 2008.
Just because its there dosent make it legal. If Jane the whore has 4 pounds of cocaine lined up on her table in America does that make it legal?
Maybe not legal, but it does make Jane the most popular whore in her town.....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Actually - here is what the future holds for any emu. Any overt one is taken down - not because there is any actual ruling but rather the costs of going to court is enough to shut down any home based operation let alone most moderate sized companies. So going overt will get you taken down via financial means. Now however, should someone win a 200 million dollar lottery - then I am sure the emu debate would go into court and be fought out fairly.
All this is besides the point. Truth is that EMUs are possible. Truth is that they are out there. The fact of the matter is they will have to be private based or covert. Fight Club-ish so to speak. Posting your existence on the web will get you botted in no time. And pretty soon the letters come.
My friends and I used to always lament that what we really wanted for out guild was our own EQ server (many moons ago). There our friends and guildies could not have to deal with campers and griefers and so on. I am sure we are not the only set of people that wanted this. The future of the EMU is to be a private server - played on by smaller groups of people. There in the privacy of their own little network - such legal battles would be avoided. The EMU files will make their way to file sharing agents like Morpheus and such and downloaded along with pirated mp3 songs that are also legal trouble. All of which protected by the likes of Peer Guardian.
The EQ emu sites seem to infer this as well. Keep it secret, keep it safe. SWGEmu may be making a mistake as it seems to be self serving and hording the glory for what appears to be servers in their control. This provides a single point of attack and is a big mistake. SWG emulation will be a success if they make the server files and means of operation obtainable and playable to the public via other sites and file agents. However, should they maintain an iron fist grip - we will have to wait for a splinter group to share what we want. After that, whole guilds will reunite and private servers will flourish. Much like the Pamela Anderson tapes - yes you can seek to shut them down one at a time but pretty soon there are too many reign in.
Kef
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
I've seen it over there still, and I think it's many years old. And that country seems to consume a lot of films
So, LucasArts is loosing a lot of money there maybe?
STOP HERE AND READ PLEASE: As most of you know I hate $OE, $LA, and the current state of the game WITH A PASSION. I am not happy spending $1,200.00 and investing over 3900 hours of time playing SWG to have everything i had accomplished and paid for wiped out by the NGE. However, in being an adult I must look at all the facts and draw my conclusions from that. So there is a certain amount of pain and/or sadness I am feeling due to this decision by the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals.
Please read on:
I really do not understand why people think a SWG EMU will happen? The only chance a SWG EMU has is if it is done in another country. The 8th Circuit Court of Appeals has spoken and they have AFFIRMED (means agreed with) a lower courts ruling that a WoW EMU was illegal.
The ruling from the 3 Federal Appeals Court Judges:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/8th/043654p.pdf
The above court document, which is the ruling handed down from Judge Smith from the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals, is a Summary Judgement that "AFFIRMED" the ruling from the U.S. District Court.
Summary Judgement means:
A court order ruling that no factual issues remain to be tried and therefore a cause of action or all causes of action in a complaint can be decided upon certain facts without trial. A summary judgment is based upon a motion by one of the parties that contends that all necessary factual issues are settled or so one-sided they need not be tried. The motion is supported by declarations under oath, excerpts from depositions which are under oath, admissions of fact and other discovery, as well as a legal argument (points and authorities), that argue that there are no triable issues of fact and that the settled facts require a summary judgment for the moving party. The opposing party will respond by counter-declarations and legal arguments attempting to show that there are "triable issues of fact." If it is unclear whether there is a triable issue of fact in any cause of action, then summary judgment must be denied as to that cause of action. The theory behind the summary judgment process is to eliminate the need to try settled factual issues and to decide without trial one or more causes of action in the complaint. The pleading procedures are extremely technical and complicated and are particularly dangerous to the party against whom the motion is made.
It appears that the people creating the WoW EMU, Tim Jung and Rob Crittenden, had appealed the lower courts ruling against them to the Federal Appeals court. When they filed the appeal, Blizzards corporate lawyers filed a motion for a Summary Judgement (actually both parties did). After the 3 Judges that read prepared statements and briefs from BOTH parties, the judges GRANTED Blizzards Corporate Lawyers thier Summary Judgement.
That meant that Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden have not presented anything of any substance that would pursuade the Appeals Court Judges to go forward with thier appeal. This means they were squashed before it ever went to trial.
What amazes me is that NO ONE in this tread has read the decision by the Appeals court judges. In this decision it plainly states that Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden had circumvented the copyright protection system of the WoW product. Meaning that in the process of what they had or were trying to accomplish they had found a way around the CD Key which is how software is protected from illegal duplication.
It is the inability of Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden product to be able to identify if the client software that is connecting to their server as a legal or illegal copy. This may only be possible by the software manufacturer as only they know all the CD Keys.
HOWEVER, I would venture to say, that even if Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden could develope some way to do this, that Blizzard would then be able to sue for monetary damages. Course this is a moot point as Mr. Jung and Mr. Crittenden never got over the first problem with the CD Keys.
I do not know why or how any other EMUs are able to function. I was only aware of one, UO or AO which ever one it is. It could be the EMUs are in a differrent country that has different copyright laws (or none at all) and thus these people are able to get away with it. All I know is that IF they are in the USA, they may not be up much longer.
I wish this were not so ....
Sago Mactow
Former SWG 2yr 7 month Vet
6/26/03 - 1/26/06
Jedi, Master Shipwright, Master Architect
DFR Councilman
Tarq Server
People steal stuff all the time, that doesn't make theft legal or justified. I believe you're just trying to convince yourself that you're not stealing, and that because other people do it, it's ok.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
From a legal standpoint, they may be able to do this, but that really won't matter in the slightest.
From a technical standpoint, they can't do it. Not because it's impossible, but because those particular individuals have no clue what they're doing.
SWG Tempest: Cardo Dycen RIP
Eve: Cardoh Dycen
I support random drug testing for all SOE employees
People steal stuff all the time, that doesn't make theft legal or justified. I believe you're just trying to convince yourself that you're not stealing, and that because other people do it, it's ok.
Thats what it looks like to me.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
er... Can I just remind you some of those EMUs have been taken to court and shut down?
I'd also like to point out that Q4 2007 is a LONG way away and common sense in the coding world is to keep your mouth shut about something until it's done and installed on a computer.
I'll believe it when I see it. If I see it I'll pat them on the back and go back to playing the heap of next gen MMOs we're getting in 2007.
I realize that. I'm just saying it is possible. They can shut down the EMU but the private servers always keep popping up.
Remmeber Winter's Roar was shut down by Sony and then Shards of Dalaya popped up. It is really hard for companies to keep up with the amount of servers out there. They really shouldn't be concerned (unless you SWG) because the private servers are really sub-par with lots of bugs (most of them anyway). SWG is a different story because people are creating an EMU purposly to get back to an old version of the game (which has never happened before). SWG: NGE will get hit hard if this EMU is released.
So SoE will probably be hunting for these servers so I don't see servers lasting long.
There will always be those loyalists that stay with NGE and turn in the private servers to SoE. So I don't know about the future of Pre-CU outside of SoE.
Nice post...
You failed to address two (2) points...
1) Why is OK for EVERQUEST to be Reverse Engineered and not SWG?
2) Why is it that an EVERQUEST EMU is OK and not SWG?
The point here is that what the EQ EMU is doing is completely legal and there is nothing SOE can do about it. If they could take any kind of legal action what so ever...THEY WOULD!!!
Do you think for one moment that SOE would allow even one SUB to go to an EMU? Don't you think, they would just bring a lawsuit and stop the activity? Do you know why the EQ EMU is still up?....
BECAUSE IT IS LEGAL!!!!
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
But can you tell me why?...thats all I wish to know
The thing is...
1) They are both MMORPGs.
2) They are both owned by SONY.
3) They both used / using revervse engineering.
4) SOE has stated, they do not care about EMUs.
5) SOE CSRs have said it is possible to have an EMU
5) SOE has taken NO action to stop the EQ EMU or SWG EMU teams.
6) SONY is known for bringing IP lawsuits at a drop of a hat...Yet the EQ EMU continues...why?
All I am saying is...The SWG EMU is as Legal as the EQ EMU. Regardless of the tech issuses involved with rebuilding such a game...IT IS STILL VERY MUCH LEGAL.
But can you tell me why?...thats all I wish to know
The thing is...
1) They are both MMORPGs.
2) They are both owned by SONY.
3) They both used / using revervse engineering.
4) SOE has stated, they do not care about EMUs.
5) SOE CSRs have said it is possible to have an EMU
5) SOE has taken NO action to stop the EQ EMU or SWG EMU teams.
6) SONY is known for bringing IP lawsuits at a drop of a hat...Yet the EQ EMU continues...why?
All I am saying is...The SWG EMU is as Legal as the EQ EMU. Regardless of the tech issuses involved with rebuilding such a game...IT IS STILL VERY MUCH LEGAL.
Man, if I knew why I wouldnt be in this thread, id be a lawyer or a coder.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett