The only way to reach that conclusion is if you assume that every single time a developer opens his trap, theres an interpreter right there twisting his words into the most misleading statement possible. Either they are the ultimate weasels, as you have called them before, or you're spouting massive amounts of hot air. Let me put it this way, I know several of them personally, and have no reason whatsoever to believe your point of view Pantastic.
Ahh, the fanboy attack again. If you'll recall the long thread on this topic before, you and your pal were completely and utterly unable to come up with a SINGLE developer quote supporting the position that raid gear will be no better than nonraid gear. You (I didn't even have to look for them) did provide quotes where the developers stated that raid gear will not be '50 times' better than nonraid gear, where they stated that raiding deserves better rewards than group content, and so on.
It's funny that YOU have directly quoted the devs stating that they think raiding deserves better rewards than grouping, but accuse me of being full of hot air. But, since you whined so much about it... are you saying that Jayde (AOC dev) was lying when he stated clearly and unequivocably that he thought raiders deserve better rewards than nonraiders?
If Jayde had ever "clearly and unequivocably" said that, I would never have bothered arguing, on that point at least.
What he actually said was that more difficult encounters deserve better rewards than the less difficult ones.
He additionally stated that most raids are more difficult than most small group PvE.
Extrapolating from this, the only thing that you can "clearly and unequivocably" say is that you won't find that Atlantean sword of uberness dropping from a random wolf kill. and as I've said before, so what?
In other quotes that you continue to ignore and in one case denied ever existed, he also stated that some small group PvE encounters and some PvP scenarios will be considered comparably difficult to raids, and thus will have comparable if not equal loot
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
I normally like to only deal in facts but I decided to post this (well repost).
here are some Dev comments that confirm my suspicions bout conan (well kinda confirm the DEv posts I've found seem very flaky and not set in stone):
"In Conan our PvP rewards will be based around PvP so they will be useful to a PvP player but will not imbalance the rest of the game for everyone else. " - meaning the PvP items that you earn with blood money wont be as good as the stuff the PvE'ers grind for? I dont want to make assumptions here so I will continue to look for more dev posts on this
"Availability of powerful items is a tricky balancing thing, and it is too early to go into details on it. However, we want to reward players when they have done something difficult, and items are a good way to do that. We aim to spread out the availability of the wanted items tho, so players can aquire a good polearm from several different sources, be it from tough mobs, quests, tradeskills or something else. We also want to avoid having a single item being superiour to all others, there shouldn't be an end-all-be-all sword that is always best, but several swords, axes and scimitars that are better for different situations. Tradeskills will play a part in this of course, more on that below."
This sounds good to me actually- that a crafter can make me the best weapon. But then I'm concerned how much grinding I gotta do to pay the crafter. I dont think I want to grind monsters. and I dont want to raid for the materials to give to the crafter. Still, if crafters can make the best loot then this can be really interesting...
"Originally Posted by Jayde
To address the concerns about "loot whoring" and the quest for better and better loot--to some extent, this will be somewhat unavoidable. Certain types of players will always be driven to min-max, optimize, or otherwise go to great lengths to gain the smallest advantage whatsoever. So, unless you removed all progression in the game (obviously not an option) this element will be present."
okay thats fine that the game will be gear dependant actually. I understand this but going baCK to Dev comment #1- well I cant earn the best gear from pvp. Once I hit cap I'm not gonna want to grind. just seems like Conan is going the PvE route mostly. nothing wrong with this- I think it will still be a great game. however, I worry that they deem PvE earned materials higher then PvP materials (stuff bought with blood)
"Originally Posted by Jayde
As for the on-going discussion in regard to how much a role items play in a character's stats, I would say that it's always a struggle to balance these issues for everyone. On one hand, a player does not want to feel powerless against another play because the other player has more "phat l00t" and is thus invincible. On the other hand, players who struggle through the game and accomplish difficult tasks should be rewarded in a perceptable way and not just given a pat on the back and a cookie.
Balancing this will be an on-going struggle, I'm sure, but it is something we will be keeping a close eye on as the game develops."
Okay so they so it will be an ongoing struggle. That sounds reasonable. my problem is that whats the whole point of blood money if I cant get the best gear from it? they are building their whole entire pvp system around it however it sounds like a carebear can still steamroll my avatar assuming we both are equal pvp levels cause the pve carebear is gonna most likely have the best gear. edit- correction I know they claim skill is going to be the driving factor here but my point is I dont think its fair a carebear has even a tiny advantage over someone that still puts in just as much time or more doing what they find fun.
Anyway im not gonna prejudge this game but I'm just concerned bout the direction the game is goin. just sounds likte their attitude is that pvp rewards unbalance the rest of the game somehow
Originally posted by Aelfinn In other quotes that you continue to ignore and in one case denied ever existed, he also stated that some small group PvE encounters and some PvP scenarios will be considered comparably difficult to raids, and thus will have comparable if not equal loot
You're lying as usual, since I've never seen any such quote. Put up the quote, or let everyone see that you just made it up out of whole cloth. Also, it needs to be in English, don't repeat the nonsense where you link to some Norwegian site and claim it proves everything you're saying.
Originally posted by SWGforreva Lol actually you did compare AoC raiding to WoW raiding, so i guess you dont know what your thinking?
LOL actually I did say that AOC is going to be a raid game like several games including WOW are, but at no point did I say anything about the heaviness of raiding. Learn2read; the fanboy attacks start to get really absurd when I end up quoting myself 5 or 6 times before you actually read what I wrote in the first place.
These guys seem to be scared of the mere word "raid",
That's OK, you losers who defend raiding seem to be scared of a level playing field.
I'm not defending "raiding", im defending AoC's Originality, try to grasp that...In fact i rather pvp anytime rather then raid, thats why i play EvE? You dont seem to understand my point but watever pointless bickering, once the games come out we will see wuts on top..
In other quotes that you continue to ignore and in one case denied ever existed, he also stated that some small group PvE encounters and some PvP scenarios will be considered comparably difficult to raids, and thus will have comparable if not equal loot
You're lying as usual, since I've never seen any such quote. Put up the quote, or let everyone see that you just made it up out of whole cloth. Also, it needs to be in English, don't repeat the nonsense where you link to some Norwegian site and claim it proves everything you're saying.
A.) I had sufficient reason to believe the information I was posting was conclusive, it was hardly my fault my freind forgot to mention the loophole in his translation.
B.) I've never lied about the information I post, as I have continually proven by backing up my claims, something that you have continually failed to do, including in this thread. Quit trying to degrade my character, your embarrasing yourself
C.) this will be about the fourth time you completely ignore the following quote
"Rewards will be tied directly with difficulty. This means that, yes, raids will have a higher maximum potential than solo PvE play. This does not mean, however, that all raids will be more difficult than all small group play--even if most are--or that the massive PvP objectives will not be classed as high difficulty."
Jayde
And something a little more directly aimed at you, which you have also chosen to ignore in the past:
"I said nothing else... all the other stuff about how PvE rewards will wtfpwn people in PvP, how we won't make hard solo content, how raiders will be forced to farm 24/7 for phat lootz, how we are making the game a WoW clone, that the game is now full item centric, that rewarding raids means a game has to be item centric, that raid loot will be 50 times better than anything a casual player can get, that Conan raids will take 8 hours a day 7 days a week to complete, that Conan raids will be boring and tedious, that you will never be able to get anything good from small group or solo play, that PvP won't have its own set of rewards, that all raids will be 40 man, 80 man, or 120 man instead of possibly 10 man, 15 man, or 20 man, and/or any of the plethora of assumptions represented here...those all basically just alarmist conclusions drawn mostly out of thin air, colored heavily by many people's bad experienced with another game.."
Jayde
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
In other quotes that you continue to ignore and in one case denied ever existed, he also stated that some small group PvE encounters and some PvP scenarios will be considered comparably difficult to raids, and thus will have comparable if not equal loot
You're lying as usual, since I've never seen any such quote. Put up the quote, or let everyone see that you just made it up out of whole cloth. Also, it needs to be in English, don't repeat the nonsense where you link to some Norwegian site and claim it proves everything you're saying.
A.) I had sufficient reason to believe the information I was posting was conclusive, it was hardly my fault my freind forgot to mention the loophole in his translation.
B.) I've never lied about the information I post, as I have continually proven by backing up my claims, something that you have continually failed to do, including in this thread. Quit trying to degrade my character, your embarrasing yourself
C.) this will be about the fourth time you completely ignore the following quote
"Rewards will be tied directly with difficulty. This means that, yes, raids will have a higher maximum potential than solo PvE play. This does not mean, however, that all raids will be more difficult than all small group play--even if most are--or that the massive PvP objectives will not be classed as high difficulty."
Jayde
And something a little more directly aimed at you, which you have also chosen to ignore in the past:
"I said nothing else... all the other stuff about how PvE rewards will wtfpwn people in PvP, how we won't make hard solo content, how raiders will be forced to farm 24/7 for phat lootz, how we are making the game a WoW clone, that the game is now full item centric, that rewarding raids means a game has to be item centric, that raid loot will be 50 times better than anything a casual player can get, that Conan raids will take 8 hours a day 7 days a week to complete, that Conan raids will be boring and tedious, that you will never be able to get anything good from small group or solo play, that PvP won't have its own set of rewards, that all raids will be 40 man, 80 man, or 120 man instead of possibly 10 man, 15 man, or 20 man, and/or any of the plethora of assumptions represented here...those all basically just alarmist conclusions drawn mostly out of thin air, colored heavily by many people's bad experienced with another game.."
Jayde
Not to take Pantastic's side, because I usually don't when it comes to Raiding, but the first quote where he says "Raids will have a higher maximum potential" referring to the quality of items, means to me that Raiding is going to get you the best items.
The second quote honestly just makes Jayde seem like an ass. If all of those are conclusions drawn out of thin air, then why did he himself say "Raiding will have the highest maximum potential."?
The more quotes I read from Jayde the more he looks unprofessional, easily angered, and not very good with words. Not to mention instead of just saying something like "We haven't decided yet" or "it still needs to be tested to see how item balancing will go" or something else that is a legitimate answer, he calls everyone fools that interpret his own quotes in a certain light.
To me he doesn't sound like a trustworthy developer, but more like an angry little person that keeps stumbling over his own words.
EDIT: They really need to hire someone else to directly talk to people on forums. Maybe they should give Richard or Sanya over at Mythic a shout and ask them how to properly address the forumites without sounding like a jerk.
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
If you go to the threads pretty much any of these quotes come from, you will see Athelan and Jayde wading through an almost literal sea of flames. I'd like to see anyone at all keep a level head when put under that kind of pressure about a decision that isn't theirs to make or fully reveal the details of.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
If they had the level of maturity that they should have being Representatives of Funcom, they wouldn't lower themselves to responding to a sea of flames.
I've seen several devs from Mythic as well as other companies get flamed countlessly, and I've never seen them stoop to the level of the flamers. It seems that on several occasions Jayde comes close to flaming as well.
It's just unprofessional and they shouldn't be wading in anything. If people are just flaming them, then they should say their piece and leave, they shouldn't constantly try to convince people that their game is this or that.
I was just dissapointed with the two quotes you posted because they almost contradict eachother. Any sane person would read "Raiding gives the maximum potential" as I read it. Upon reading it again, he also embeds the fact that most Raids will be more difficult than small group or solo content when he says
"This does not mean, however, that all raids will be more difficult...even though most are...".
Compare this with what he said a sentence before "Rewards will be tied directly to difficulty" and I think we have a winner that Raid content will give the best rewards.
Then he says that these assumptions are drawn out of thin air? Personally I think Jayde should just not speak. He's honestly making me want to play it less by saying things in such a convoluted way and then claiming that people are pulling the very things he says out of thin air. Not someone I want to be pointing out problems to or making suggestions to about problems I find in the game. Definitely doesn't sound like he's understanding of the skeptics, which all developers should be.
Funcom should just not let him talk. Take away his forum priviledges(I'm using Him, because I don't know if Jayde is a female or male. My default is Him )
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
Remember that when they mention raids and small group PvE, they mean ALL of it. When he says that most raids will be considered to be more difficult than most other PvE, all that means in the end is that the raid fight with the river guardian boss is going to be considered more difficult than for example a random giant ape enounter.
It does not mean that for example a solo fight with a master NPC lich won't be considered more difficult than the aforementioned raid, and thus have more/better/roughly equivalent rewards. Such extremely difficult small group PvE encounters would represent only a tiny fraction of their category, while at the same time, raids are all top level or close to it in terms of difficulty, hence the wording of those phrases.
Let me put it in terms of percentages, for the sake of this example, lets say that Tier 5 gear represents the best lootable equipment available anywhere, anything in this category is roughly if not exactly equal to each other in terms of abilities.
Available PvE encounters and their respective reward distribution
Solo PvE Small group PvE Large group PvE (raids)
Tier 5 1% 5% 75%
Tier 4 5% 15% 20%
Tier 3 14% 25% 5%
Tier 2 30% 45% N/A
Tier 1 50% 10% N/A
Each collumn percentage represents totals of the whole of each category, there might be 50 small group PvE encounters that yield Tier 5 loot, and only 9 Raids that yeild the same, and the percentages would still be somewhat akin to this, quite simply because of all the other content spread around the game. As you can see, in the above example, most Raid encounters yield better loot than most other PvE encounters, exactly like Jayde was describing.
Obviously, the above numbers are purely made up, but they would fit in quite well with the above quotes, and at the same time would answer the central question thats at the root of this discussion.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
I normally like to only deal in facts but I decided to post this (well repost). here are some Dev comments that confirm my suspicions bout conan (well kinda confirm the DEv posts I've found seem very flaky and not set in stone): "In Conan our PvP rewards will be based around PvP so they will be useful to a PvP player but will not imbalance the rest of the game for everyone else. " - meaning the PvP items that you earn with blood money wont be as good as the stuff the PvE'ers grind for? I dont want to make assumptions here so I will continue to look for more dev posts on this
I'm pretty sure you're reading it wrong. I think what he's trying to say is that PvP Items stay in PvP zones. That way the PvEers won't have to PvP if they don't want to. I'm not so sure why Devs beleive overdependence on PvP can ruin a game though. "You can't PvP from level one! OMGZ! And there's no way you should be able to get as much reward from PvP as PvE! WHAT R U THINKING!"
here is a post I just found by a content designer on Conan:
"All I would point out here is that there are many MMO players that do enjoy "raiding." Given that well-coordinated raids are one of the harder things to execute in many situations, I think it would be inappropriate not to give raiders a tangible reward for their effort and successes in coordination.
This is not to say that smaller than 40-man groups cannot have situations that are difficult and rewarding, however, one must make sure that the raiding playstyle is rewarded as well.
Most arguments I see against raiding involve taking any substantial reward away from raids--which I personally think is a poor way of going about things. If you think about it logically, if for instance 5-man events gave as good of rewards as 40-man events, who would do 40-man events at all? Wouldn't the group of 40 people just do 4 simultanious 5-man events and get 4 times the reward?
After all, while 5-man situations can require a single person to have more weight than a 40-man raid, if you have an "elite" guild where all the players are at the higer end of the playskill spectrum, executing a 5-man event will be easier than a 40-man event. All other things being equal (player skill, difficulty, reward), raids are still harder to execute simply due to the need for large-scale coordination.
Given how many MMO player do enjoy raids and participation among larger guilds, I personally think removing any incentive and reward for executing them would be a big mistake."
okay so #1 pvpers cant loot other players since they is no full loot server. Okay thats fine but if I cant earn the best gear from pvp via blood money and raiders get the best gear it just appears that Conan is going the raid route to me. I'll continue to search their forums but from what I ahve seen this game isn;'t catering to pvpers much at all. it just isnt fair a pve'er will have advanatages over us pvpers that put in jsut as much work as they do. I group with 40+ of my guild all the time to pvp for hours but for some reason I dont deserve the best? to hell with that!
edit- interesting some of the posters seem convinced pvpers wont have to raid to compete I wish they'd give firm information here. WAR seems a lot more firm then AoC even though AoC is in beta they say
I been tracking these 2 games for a long time since both caught my eye when i was looking for the "next-gen" mmorpg.
In honest opinion, i believe that if they implement the things they have discussed properly (tactical formations, actual organistion in combat rather than a gank fest, and the ability to built + defend your own cities) then AoC will be the better game.
I've been looking at WAR, and all it looks like is a prettier version of DAoC's combat with new sprites. I haven't seen anything yet that has inspired my imagination, or made me think "WOW I CANT WAIT TO DO THAT"
AoC has already painted pictures in my imagination that has me wracking my brains over which class to choose. I'm a big fan of CSS aswell, so do i go for the ranged char and put my aim to use, picking people off and solo holding a fortification. Do i go for the big meathead wading in with his 2-hander trying to mow people down. Maybe the tank, holding off the masses. Or the mage class, casting a spell too powerful for my capabilites just to try and save the day, or turning into a demon in the middle of a battle field.
There's also the EXTREMELY exciting prospect of horses, which i think will be a great use to the pvp. Charging out of forests and flanking enemies.
In simple terms:
AoC has got me stoked, there's so much i'm excited about.
WAR simply just looks like a revamped DAoC and i've lost interest.
Aelfinn you've argued well up till rescently. I've been following the arguement and the more it goes on the more your substance goes to crap. I have to hand it to Checkthis, pantastic, and distortion. You guys have all thrown in really good arguements. IF anyone hasn't read their posts. You should.. I clap for them. I was going to quote and QFT but I would have done it about 8 times over lol.
Someone talked about the mounted attack and the different ways you could attack with a sword. Yes most of us have read all that jazz. We've already established that AoC had some unique combat. The arguement is now on... is it going to work. How is it going to be applyed. and other things.
Anyone will agree with you that the ideas and combat are cool. But everyones skeptical about if it will come together as well as you will want it to. I seriously don't wish badly for this game. If they can pull all that jazz off I will have the upmost appreciation for the game. Still won't change a lot of pvp factors though... And personally... I want to level up in pvp. I've done enough mob killing and questing in my wow day. I genuinly will be excited though if they pull off some of the stuff they want to though. You have no idea. I kinda wish WAR and AoC could just... combine into one ultimate super game. But some people just don't like to face the fact that they can't beat other players in a game and thats ok.
Honestly I think the fact that AoC will be a straight mature game is really going to swing me in it's direction. I know for a fact that I will be playing GNH once it's released. I also plan on picking up AoC over WAR at this point. My opinion may change as we get closer to the actual release dates. I just can't help thinking that WAR will attract all the immature fanboys that plague WoW currently. That being said, every game will have those type of annoying players, I know this. I am just hoping that the rating sticker will remove some of these retards from getting into AoC once their parents see it.
AoC will be sold on the xbox360 too so not only will there will be a lot of young players in the game I guarantee you you'll also hear their voices too. when I play rainbow six: vegas (xbox 360 version, rated M for mature) it never ceases to amaze me how many little kids jump on the mic asking 'how many people got this game for christmas?' and other such crap. my brother plays 'M' rated games on xbox live all the time if im not mistaken and he's always complaining bout little kids getitng on the voice com ruining everythng for him.
honestly though not sure why people care so much about community. If you dont like someone why not just boot them from your party / guild why is that so hard to do. I always make sure I'm the one in control for this specific reason. if you find their global chat annoying just report them to a GM and put them on /ignore. never understodd why ppl complain bout global chat either do they just have nothing elkse better to do then sit there and chat with other guys all night long? Are they trying to make friends? I just dont get it lol why would you let some little kid ruin your gaming experience that you pay real money for
Honestly I think the fact that AoC will be a straight mature game is really going to swing me in it's direction. I know for a fact that I will be playing GNH once it's released. I also plan on picking up AoC over WAR at this point. My opinion may change as we get closer to the actual release dates. I just can't help thinking that WAR will attract all the immature fanboys that plague WoW currently. That being said, every game will have those type of annoying players, I know this. I am just hoping that the rating sticker will remove some of these retards from getting into AoC once their parents see it.
In WAR you could kill those immature little fan boys ^^. Yeah... the mature rating will hold them off for a short time tell they just have their mother or older brother go get it. Lol... at my Wal-mart they still sell me mature games.
Age of Conan - people who think a mature label will hold them off... stop being ignorant have you seen how many kids played GTA: San Andreas?
Warhammer - people who think that this game will be riddled with 16 yr old kids. Wow are you saying 18 and up are automatically considered mature and not capable of acting stupid? how ignorant is that?
"Well, to clarify what to expect from Conan somewhat...
There will be notable improvement in the equipment you find at level 1 and the equipment you find at level 80. Likewise, there will also be notable improvement between equipment you find off easy mobs and equipment you find off harder mobs.
That said, I think you will find the gap of item progression to be somewhat smaller in Conan than the average game. To use WoW as an understandable example: epic weapons generally are as powerful as a superior item 10 levels higher, while rare weapons are 5 levels higher. The gap in Conan between "epic" types of items compared to superior items will be considerably smaller, as the base weapon damage between those weapons will not change. The main difference is that "epic" (boss) drops have a higher mod budget, and thus may have slightly higher modified damage--but not dramatically so.
Rare items may also have access to different types of mods not available on more common items. For instance, a "superior" type weapon you find off a sub-boss may only have access to some simplistic mods, like "+Taunt" (barbed) or "+Attack Rating" (sharpened)... whereas an "epic" drop of more distinct nature may have something more magical about it. Standard drops shouldn't be found with a magical attribute enchatment, but drops from very difficult bosses--and thus items being protected/horded by the boss--may be of a (slightly) magical nature. That said, the raw base DPS of the weapon should be very similar. "
Jayde
"Some of this is ofset by the nature of weapons/armor that I mentioned before--sure, it may be nice to get the magical item, but it shouldn't be required. If you someone doesn't want to go to lengths to get some rare drop from a boss, I don't think they will feel "gimped" in the current proposed system. Sure, the guy with the other weapon will have an edge, but not such a massive edge that it skews the "need" towards rare drops. "
Jayde
"It was also stated that gear is the smallest contribution to the stats, not the largest by any means. In fact, direct ability modifications are extremely "expensive" and only available on rare items, even then the quantity is quite low. The same applies to direct attack rating modifications--they are only available on rare items and in small quantities."
Athelan
If we intended raid items to over balance PvP why would we bother to make PvP specific combat stats and mods for items that mod those stats? Since the biggest complaint about raids is coming from people worried about reproducing another WoW scenario where they got schooled in PvP by people running around with tier 2.5 tier 3 gear and weapons. Apparently the big quote that no one seems to get is "Conan is not World of Warcraft" :P
Athelan
No we are not going to make PvE items worthless in PvP. That would be a pretty ignorant thing to do. Probably more ignorant than not considering the point you bring up about "raid" geared people dominating PvP. With the possibilities for crafted armor tailored through gems and even the potential for PvP stat specific gems that could be used in crafting I see no reason to worry. Its all about balance, which isnt going to be possible until said items exist for comparison will it
So I'd have to say that it isn't nearly as raid focused on WoW.
Yeah that sounds encouraging. I guess at some point you have to just have faith in the developer at least til they release. I am glad they are making pvp a focus here I am starting to feel a little better about this MMO once again. Thank you for your post
Bleh, I don't feel like catching back up with another monster thread. It looks like just people quoting the devs saying that raiding will be better rewarded, with the usual weasel words tacked on about 'well, some tiny piece of non-raid content might be considered as difficult as raids and so might get a good reward, so the best gear is only 95% percent from raiding'.
As I've said before and the raid-defenders ignore: Bear in mind that I don't disagree that completing raid content requires more effort than nonraid content; organizing a large group of people to show up at once and to put up with boring repitition does require effort. I simply don't find the kind of effort involved to be enjoyable at all, and so have no desire to play a game which makes you choose between doing something unenjoyable or being second rate. If someone decided to make a taxing game in which you had to correctly fill out tax forms every time you made money, I would have no interest in it either.
Pantastic, if you've proven anything, it's that all fanbois are tools.
You are using the same methods the devs use in proving one point to prove the opposite point.
Until now I haven't seen any quote that would make me believe either of the raid vs PVP points.... if some of you have, you are a tool, why? because there is no proof for neither one.
This is fanboi vs Pantastic, not raid vs PVP issue, both sides use the same quotes, duh!
That said, I feel that if there won't be any major changes or last minute overhauls... both games will be realy good and fun with diferent beeing the major selling point for each one. Pantastic, if you are so much anoyed by raid or be second grade premise, good, you can play WAR only and advance trough PVP with occasional PVE here and there... anyone else who resents raiding as much as Pantastic can do the same... but claiming anything at this point is silly and servers only as fanboi bait
P.S. the facts are yet to be seen, so stop attacking Pantastic, he's making as much sense as AoC devs, and Pantastic, you are same as the fanbois here because you bash them for beeing what they are and yet doing the same thing they are only you aren't defending the game, you are attacking it, and that is a real shame for a person of such inteligence, you are either the dummest smart person I know or have way to much free time
Comments
Ahh, the fanboy attack again. If you'll recall the long thread on this topic before, you and your pal were completely and utterly unable to come up with a SINGLE developer quote supporting the position that raid gear will be no better than nonraid gear. You (I didn't even have to look for them) did provide quotes where the developers stated that raid gear will not be '50 times' better than nonraid gear, where they stated that raiding deserves better rewards than group content, and so on.
It's funny that YOU have directly quoted the devs stating that they think raiding deserves better rewards than grouping, but accuse me of being full of hot air. But, since you whined so much about it... are you saying that Jayde (AOC dev) was lying when he stated clearly and unequivocably that he thought raiders deserve better rewards than nonraiders?
If Jayde had ever "clearly and unequivocably" said that, I would never have bothered arguing, on that point at least.
What he actually said was that more difficult encounters deserve better rewards than the less difficult ones.
He additionally stated that most raids are more difficult than most small group PvE.
Extrapolating from this, the only thing that you can "clearly and unequivocably" say is that you won't find that Atlantean sword of uberness dropping from a random wolf kill. and as I've said before, so what?
In other quotes that you continue to ignore and in one case denied ever existed, he also stated that some small group PvE encounters and some PvP scenarios will be considered comparably difficult to raids, and thus will have comparable if not equal loot
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
I normally like to only deal in facts but I decided to post this (well repost).
here are some Dev comments that confirm my suspicions bout conan (well kinda confirm the DEv posts I've found seem very flaky and not set in stone):
"In Conan our PvP rewards will be based around PvP so they will be useful to a PvP player but will not imbalance the rest of the game for everyone else. " - meaning the PvP items that you earn with blood money wont be as good as the stuff the PvE'ers grind for? I dont want to make assumptions here so I will continue to look for more dev posts on this
"Availability of powerful items is a tricky balancing thing, and it is too early to go into details on it. However, we want to reward players when they have done something difficult, and items are a good way to do that. We aim to spread out the availability of the wanted items tho, so players can aquire a good polearm from several different sources, be it from tough mobs, quests, tradeskills or something else. We also want to avoid having a single item being superiour to all others, there shouldn't be an end-all-be-all sword that is always best, but several swords, axes and scimitars that are better for different situations. Tradeskills will play a part in this of course, more on that below."
This sounds good to me actually- that a crafter can make me the best weapon. But then I'm concerned how much grinding I gotta do to pay the crafter. I dont think I want to grind monsters. and I dont want to raid for the materials to give to the crafter. Still, if crafters can make the best loot then this can be really interesting...
"Originally Posted by Jayde
To address the concerns about "loot whoring" and the quest for better and better loot--to some extent, this will be somewhat unavoidable. Certain types of players will always be driven to min-max, optimize, or otherwise go to great lengths to gain the smallest advantage whatsoever. So, unless you removed all progression in the game (obviously not an option) this element will be present."
okay thats fine that the game will be gear dependant actually. I understand this but going baCK to Dev comment #1- well I cant earn the best gear from pvp. Once I hit cap I'm not gonna want to grind. just seems like Conan is going the PvE route mostly. nothing wrong with this- I think it will still be a great game. however, I worry that they deem PvE earned materials higher then PvP materials (stuff bought with blood)
"Originally Posted by Jayde
As for the on-going discussion in regard to how much a role items play in a character's stats, I would say that it's always a struggle to balance these issues for everyone. On one hand, a player does not want to feel powerless against another play because the other player has more "phat l00t" and is thus invincible. On the other hand, players who struggle through the game and accomplish difficult tasks should be rewarded in a perceptable way and not just given a pat on the back and a cookie.
Balancing this will be an on-going struggle, I'm sure, but it is something we will be keeping a close eye on as the game develops."
Okay so they so it will be an ongoing struggle. That sounds reasonable. my problem is that whats the whole point of blood money if I cant get the best gear from it? they are building their whole entire pvp system around it however it sounds like a carebear can still steamroll my avatar assuming we both are equal pvp levels cause the pve carebear is gonna most likely have the best gear. edit- correction I know they claim skill is going to be the driving factor here but my point is I dont think its fair a carebear has even a tiny advantage over someone that still puts in just as much time or more doing what they find fun.
Anyway im not gonna prejudge this game but I'm just concerned bout the direction the game is goin. just sounds likte their attitude is that pvp rewards unbalance the rest of the game somehow
Well I guess I don't really have to choose. I will just play the first one to release.
You're lying as usual, since I've never seen any such quote. Put up the quote, or let everyone see that you just made it up out of whole cloth. Also, it needs to be in English, don't repeat the nonsense where you link to some Norwegian site and claim it proves everything you're saying.
LOL actually I did say that AOC is going to be a raid game like several games including WOW are, but at no point did I say anything about the heaviness of raiding. Learn2read; the fanboy attacks start to get really absurd when I end up quoting myself 5 or 6 times before you actually read what I wrote in the first place.
That's OK, you losers who defend raiding seem to be scared of a level playing field.
That's OK, you losers who defend raiding seem to be scared of a level playing field.
I'm not defending "raiding", im defending AoC's Originality, try to grasp that...In fact i rather pvp anytime rather then raid, thats why i play EvE? You dont seem to understand my point but watever pointless bickering, once the games come out we will see wuts on top..
You're lying as usual, since I've never seen any such quote. Put up the quote, or let everyone see that you just made it up out of whole cloth. Also, it needs to be in English, don't repeat the nonsense where you link to some Norwegian site and claim it proves everything you're saying.
A.) I had sufficient reason to believe the information I was posting was conclusive, it was hardly my fault my freind forgot to mention the loophole in his translation.
B.) I've never lied about the information I post, as I have continually proven by backing up my claims, something that you have continually failed to do, including in this thread. Quit trying to degrade my character, your embarrasing yourself
C.) this will be about the fourth time you completely ignore the following quote
"Rewards will be tied directly with difficulty. This means that, yes, raids will have a higher maximum potential than solo PvE play. This does not mean, however, that all raids will be more difficult than all small group play--even if most are--or that the massive PvP objectives will not be classed as high difficulty."
Jayde
And something a little more directly aimed at you, which you have also chosen to ignore in the past:
"I said nothing else... all the other stuff about how PvE rewards will wtfpwn people in PvP, how we won't make hard solo content, how raiders will be forced to farm 24/7 for phat lootz, how we are making the game a WoW clone, that the game is now full item centric, that rewarding raids means a game has to be item centric, that raid loot will be 50 times better than anything a casual player can get, that Conan raids will take 8 hours a day 7 days a week to complete, that Conan raids will be boring and tedious, that you will never be able to get anything good from small group or solo play, that PvP won't have its own set of rewards, that all raids will be 40 man, 80 man, or 120 man instead of possibly 10 man, 15 man, or 20 man, and/or any of the plethora of assumptions represented here...those all basically just alarmist conclusions drawn mostly out of thin air, colored heavily by many people's bad experienced with another game.."
Jayde
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
You're lying as usual, since I've never seen any such quote. Put up the quote, or let everyone see that you just made it up out of whole cloth. Also, it needs to be in English, don't repeat the nonsense where you link to some Norwegian site and claim it proves everything you're saying.
A.) I had sufficient reason to believe the information I was posting was conclusive, it was hardly my fault my freind forgot to mention the loophole in his translation.
B.) I've never lied about the information I post, as I have continually proven by backing up my claims, something that you have continually failed to do, including in this thread. Quit trying to degrade my character, your embarrasing yourself
C.) this will be about the fourth time you completely ignore the following quote
"Rewards will be tied directly with difficulty. This means that, yes, raids will have a higher maximum potential than solo PvE play. This does not mean, however, that all raids will be more difficult than all small group play--even if most are--or that the massive PvP objectives will not be classed as high difficulty."
Jayde
And something a little more directly aimed at you, which you have also chosen to ignore in the past:
"I said nothing else... all the other stuff about how PvE rewards will wtfpwn people in PvP, how we won't make hard solo content, how raiders will be forced to farm 24/7 for phat lootz, how we are making the game a WoW clone, that the game is now full item centric, that rewarding raids means a game has to be item centric, that raid loot will be 50 times better than anything a casual player can get, that Conan raids will take 8 hours a day 7 days a week to complete, that Conan raids will be boring and tedious, that you will never be able to get anything good from small group or solo play, that PvP won't have its own set of rewards, that all raids will be 40 man, 80 man, or 120 man instead of possibly 10 man, 15 man, or 20 man, and/or any of the plethora of assumptions represented here...those all basically just alarmist conclusions drawn mostly out of thin air, colored heavily by many people's bad experienced with another game.."
Jayde
Not to take Pantastic's side, because I usually don't when it comes to Raiding, but the first quote where he says "Raids will have a higher maximum potential" referring to the quality of items, means to me that Raiding is going to get you the best items.
The second quote honestly just makes Jayde seem like an ass. If all of those are conclusions drawn out of thin air, then why did he himself say "Raiding will have the highest maximum potential."?
The more quotes I read from Jayde the more he looks unprofessional, easily angered, and not very good with words. Not to mention instead of just saying something like "We haven't decided yet" or "it still needs to be tested to see how item balancing will go" or something else that is a legitimate answer, he calls everyone fools that interpret his own quotes in a certain light.
To me he doesn't sound like a trustworthy developer, but more like an angry little person that keeps stumbling over his own words.
EDIT: They really need to hire someone else to directly talk to people on forums. Maybe they should give Richard or Sanya over at Mythic a shout and ask them how to properly address the forumites without sounding like a jerk.
---------------------------------------------
I live to fight, and fight to live.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
If they had the level of maturity that they should have being Representatives of Funcom, they wouldn't lower themselves to responding to a sea of flames.
I've seen several devs from Mythic as well as other companies get flamed countlessly, and I've never seen them stoop to the level of the flamers. It seems that on several occasions Jayde comes close to flaming as well.
It's just unprofessional and they shouldn't be wading in anything. If people are just flaming them, then they should say their piece and leave, they shouldn't constantly try to convince people that their game is this or that.
I was just dissapointed with the two quotes you posted because they almost contradict eachother. Any sane person would read "Raiding gives the maximum potential" as I read it. Upon reading it again, he also embeds the fact that most Raids will be more difficult than small group or solo content when he says
"This does not mean, however, that all raids will be more difficult...even though most are...".
Compare this with what he said a sentence before "Rewards will be tied directly to difficulty" and I think we have a winner that Raid content will give the best rewards.
Then he says that these assumptions are drawn out of thin air? Personally I think Jayde should just not speak. He's honestly making me want to play it less by saying things in such a convoluted way and then claiming that people are pulling the very things he says out of thin air. Not someone I want to be pointing out problems to or making suggestions to about problems I find in the game. Definitely doesn't sound like he's understanding of the skeptics, which all developers should be.
Funcom should just not let him talk. Take away his forum priviledges(I'm using Him, because I don't know if Jayde is a female or male. My default is Him
)
---------------------------------------------
I live to fight, and fight to live.
Ok, take a step back and think for a minute.
Remember that when they mention raids and small group PvE, they mean ALL of it. When he says that most raids will be considered to be more difficult than most other PvE, all that means in the end is that the raid fight with the river guardian boss is going to be considered more difficult than for example a random giant ape enounter.
It does not mean that for example a solo fight with a master NPC lich won't be considered more difficult than the aforementioned raid, and thus have more/better/roughly equivalent rewards. Such extremely difficult small group PvE encounters would represent only a tiny fraction of their category, while at the same time, raids are all top level or close to it in terms of difficulty, hence the wording of those phrases.
Let me put it in terms of percentages, for the sake of this example, lets say that Tier 5 gear represents the best lootable equipment available anywhere, anything in this category is roughly if not exactly equal to each other in terms of abilities.
Available PvE encounters and their respective reward distribution
Solo PvE Small group PvE Large group PvE (raids)
Tier 5 1% 5% 75%
Tier 4 5% 15% 20%
Tier 3 14% 25% 5%
Tier 2 30% 45% N/A
Tier 1 50% 10% N/A
Each collumn percentage represents totals of the whole of each category, there might be 50 small group PvE encounters that yield Tier 5 loot, and only 9 Raids that yeild the same, and the percentages would still be somewhat akin to this, quite simply because of all the other content spread around the game. As you can see, in the above example, most Raid encounters yield better loot than most other PvE encounters, exactly like Jayde was describing.
Obviously, the above numbers are purely made up, but they would fit in quite well with the above quotes, and at the same time would answer the central question thats at the root of this discussion.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
here is a post I just found by a content designer on Conan:
"All I would point out here is that there are many MMO players that do enjoy "raiding." Given that well-coordinated raids are one of the harder things to execute in many situations, I think it would be inappropriate not to give raiders a tangible reward for their effort and successes in coordination.
This is not to say that smaller than 40-man groups cannot have situations that are difficult and rewarding, however, one must make sure that the raiding playstyle is rewarded as well.
Most arguments I see against raiding involve taking any substantial reward away from raids--which I personally think is a poor way of going about things. If you think about it logically, if for instance 5-man events gave as good of rewards as 40-man events, who would do 40-man events at all? Wouldn't the group of 40 people just do 4 simultanious 5-man events and get 4 times the reward?
After all, while 5-man situations can require a single person to have more weight than a 40-man raid, if you have an "elite" guild where all the players are at the higer end of the playskill spectrum, executing a 5-man event will be easier than a 40-man event. All other things being equal (player skill, difficulty, reward), raids are still harder to execute simply due to the need for large-scale coordination.
Given how many MMO player do enjoy raids and participation among larger guilds, I personally think removing any incentive and reward for executing them would be a big mistake."
okay so #1 pvpers cant loot other players since they is no full loot server. Okay thats fine but if I cant earn the best gear from pvp via blood money and raiders get the best gear it just appears that Conan is going the raid route to me. I'll continue to search their forums but from what I ahve seen this game isn;'t catering to pvpers much at all. it just isnt fair a pve'er will have advanatages over us pvpers that put in jsut as much work as they do. I group with 40+ of my guild all the time to pvp for hours but for some reason I dont deserve the best? to hell with that!
link to post: http://forums.ageofconan.com/showthread.php?t=11988&highlight=In+Conan+our+PvP+rewards+will+be+based+around+PvP+so+they+will+be+useful+to+a+PvP+player+but+will+not+imbalance+the+rest+of+the+game+for+everyone+else.
edit- interesting some of the posters seem convinced pvpers wont have to raid to compete I wish they'd give firm information here. WAR seems a lot more firm then AoC even though AoC is in beta they say
In honest opinion, i believe that if they implement the things they have discussed properly (tactical formations, actual organistion in combat rather than a gank fest, and the ability to built + defend your own cities) then AoC will be the better game.
I've been looking at WAR, and all it looks like is a prettier version of DAoC's combat with new sprites. I haven't seen anything yet that has inspired my imagination, or made me think "WOW I CANT WAIT TO DO THAT"
AoC has already painted pictures in my imagination that has me wracking my brains over which class to choose. I'm a big fan of CSS aswell, so do i go for the ranged char and put my aim to use, picking people off and solo holding a fortification. Do i go for the big meathead wading in with his 2-hander trying to mow people down. Maybe the tank, holding off the masses. Or the mage class, casting a spell too powerful for my capabilites just to try and save the day, or turning into a demon in the middle of a battle field.
There's also the EXTREMELY exciting prospect of horses, which i think will be a great use to the pvp. Charging out of forests and flanking enemies.
In simple terms:
AoC has got me stoked, there's so much i'm excited about.
WAR simply just looks like a revamped DAoC and i've lost interest.
Aelfinn you've argued well up till rescently. I've been following the arguement and the more it goes on the more your substance goes to crap. I have to hand it to Checkthis, pantastic, and distortion. You guys have all thrown in really good arguements. IF anyone hasn't read their posts. You should.. I clap for them. I was going to quote and QFT but I would have done it about 8 times over lol.
Someone talked about the mounted attack and the different ways you could attack with a sword. Yes most of us have read all that jazz. We've already established that AoC had some unique combat. The arguement is now on... is it going to work. How is it going to be applyed. and other things.
Anyone will agree with you that the ideas and combat are cool. But everyones skeptical about if it will come together as well as you will want it to. I seriously don't wish badly for this game. If they can pull all that jazz off I will have the upmost appreciation for the game. Still won't change a lot of pvp factors though... And personally... I want to level up in pvp. I've done enough mob killing and questing in my wow day. I genuinly will be excited though if they pull off some of the stuff they want to though. You have no idea. I kinda wish WAR and AoC could just... combine into one ultimate super game. But some people just don't like to face the fact that they can't beat other players in a game and thats ok.
Emerald
AoC will be sold on the xbox360 too so not only will there will be a lot of young players in the game I guarantee you you'll also hear their voices too. when I play rainbow six: vegas (xbox 360 version, rated M for mature) it never ceases to amaze me how many little kids jump on the mic asking 'how many people got this game for christmas?' and other such crap. my brother plays 'M' rated games on xbox live all the time if im not mistaken and he's always complaining bout little kids getitng on the voice com ruining everythng for him.
honestly though not sure why people care so much about community. If you dont like someone why not just boot them from your party / guild why is that so hard to do. I always make sure I'm the one in control for this specific reason. if you find their global chat annoying just report them to a GM and put them on /ignore. never understodd why ppl complain bout global chat either do they just have nothing elkse better to do then sit there and chat with other guys all night long? Are they trying to make friends? I just dont get it lol why would you let some little kid ruin your gaming experience that you pay real money for
Emerald
Warhammer - people who think that this game will be riddled with 16 yr old kids. Wow are you saying 18 and up are automatically considered mature and not capable of acting stupid? how ignorant is that?
Some quotes about how AoC is not item-centric.
Jayde
"Well, to clarify what to expect from Conan somewhat...
There will be notable improvement in the equipment you find at level 1 and the equipment you find at level 80. Likewise, there will also be notable improvement between equipment you find off easy mobs and equipment you find off harder mobs.
That said, I think you will find the gap of item progression to be somewhat smaller in Conan than the average game. To use WoW as an understandable example: epic weapons generally are as powerful as a superior item 10 levels higher, while rare weapons are 5 levels higher. The gap in Conan between "epic" types of items compared to superior items will be considerably smaller, as the base weapon damage between those weapons will not change. The main difference is that "epic" (boss) drops have a higher mod budget, and thus may have slightly higher modified damage--but not dramatically so.
Rare items may also have access to different types of mods not available on more common items. For instance, a "superior" type weapon you find off a sub-boss may only have access to some simplistic mods, like "+Taunt" (barbed) or "+Attack Rating" (sharpened)... whereas an "epic" drop of more distinct nature may have something more magical about it. Standard drops shouldn't be found with a magical attribute enchatment, but drops from very difficult bosses--and thus items being protected/horded by the boss--may be of a (slightly) magical nature. That said, the raw base DPS of the weapon should be very similar. "
Jayde
"Some of this is ofset by the nature of weapons/armor that I mentioned before--sure, it may be nice to get the magical item, but it shouldn't be required. If you someone doesn't want to go to lengths to get some rare drop from a boss, I don't think they will feel "gimped" in the current proposed system. Sure, the guy with the other weapon will have an edge, but not such a massive edge that it skews the "need" towards rare drops. "
Jayde
"It was also stated that gear is the smallest contribution to the stats, not the largest by any means. In fact, direct ability modifications are extremely "expensive" and only available on rare items, even then the quantity is quite low. The same applies to direct attack rating modifications--they are only available on rare items and in small quantities."
Athelan
If we intended raid items to over balance PvP why would we bother to make PvP specific combat stats and mods for items that mod those stats? Since the biggest complaint about raids is coming from people worried about reproducing another WoW scenario where they got schooled in PvP by people running around with tier 2.5 tier 3 gear and weapons. Apparently the big quote that no one seems to get is "Conan is not World of Warcraft" :P
Athelan
No we are not going to make PvE items worthless in PvP. That would be a pretty ignorant thing to do. Probably more ignorant than not considering the point you bring up about "raid" geared people dominating PvP. With the possibilities for crafted armor tailored through gems and even the potential for PvP stat specific gems that could be used in crafting I see no reason to worry. Its all about balance, which isnt going to be possible until said items exist for comparison will it
So I'd have to say that it isn't nearly as raid focused on WoW.
Yeah that sounds encouraging. I guess at some point you have to just have faith in the developer at least til they release. I am glad they are making pvp a focus here I am starting to feel a little better about this MMO once again. Thank you for your post
Bleh, I don't feel like catching back up with another monster thread. It looks like just people quoting the devs saying that raiding will be better rewarded, with the usual weasel words tacked on about 'well, some tiny piece of non-raid content might be considered as difficult as raids and so might get a good reward, so the best gear is only 95% percent from raiding'.
As I've said before and the raid-defenders ignore: Bear in mind that I don't disagree that completing raid content requires more effort than nonraid content; organizing a large group of people to show up at once and to put up with boring repitition does require effort. I simply don't find the kind of effort involved to be enjoyable at all, and so have no desire to play a game which makes you choose between doing something unenjoyable or being second rate. If someone decided to make a taxing game in which you had to correctly fill out tax forms every time you made money, I would have no interest in it either.
Pantastic, if you've proven anything, it's that all fanbois are tools.
You are using the same methods the devs use in proving one point to prove the opposite point.
Until now I haven't seen any quote that would make me believe either of the raid vs PVP points.... if some of you have, you are a tool, why? because there is no proof for neither one.
This is fanboi vs Pantastic, not raid vs PVP issue, both sides use the same quotes, duh!
That said, I feel that if there won't be any major changes or last minute overhauls... both games will be realy good and fun with diferent beeing the major selling point for each one. Pantastic, if you are so much anoyed by raid or be second grade premise, good, you can play WAR only and advance trough PVP with occasional PVE here and there... anyone else who resents raiding as much as Pantastic can do the same... but claiming anything at this point is silly and servers only as fanboi bait
P.S. the facts are yet to be seen, so stop attacking Pantastic, he's making as much sense as AoC devs, and Pantastic, you are same as the fanbois here because you bash them for beeing what they are and yet doing the same thing they are only you aren't defending the game, you are attacking it, and that is a real shame for a person of such inteligence, you are either the dummest smart person I know or have way to much free time