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The life of Jesus Christ: An atheist's perspective
Infliction
Member Posts: 1,115
Okay I just posted this in another thread, and have been thinking about it... This is something that as far as I can tell is a completely original idea, and I'm sure this thread will turn into a complete flamefest, but... Here goes.
A novel about Jesus and his
apostles being a troupe of conmen swindling people out of their money.
Heres the idea. If any of you have ever read or researched any earlier
Mythologies, Greek Roman etc. they have very striking resemblances to
most if not all of the stories written in the bible.
So a simple
carpenter meets a traveler one day. This traveler has been all around
the world and has seen many things in his long life. He tells this
carpenter (Jesus if you haven't figured it out yet) about the stories
and religions of these distant lands he's seen. Our carpenter hero
decides the simple life of a carpenter is not for him. He's always
wanted to be a performer, see, but the life of a performer isn't always
monetarily feasible. But these stories give him an idea. He works day
and night for the next several months performing many tricks and
illusions, to make himself seem to be... Not of this world, so to
speak. Then, he crafts the stories he's been told into those of his
own, and simplifies things. He thinks to himself "I'd seem much more
important if I was the son of the only god, instead of one of a large
handful of them".
Yada yada you get the point from here. It'd
sure piss a ton of people off... Just a thought, and I've always kinda concidered trying my hand at writing, just never got around to it or had an original enough idea for it. Of course I'm sure no sane publisher would ever put out a book with this subject, but thats what the internet's for anyway.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, ideas anyone? I'm seriously concidering writing this. Of course first I'd have to sit and read the bible cover to cover and take notes, then plot out an entire storyline, but this is a serious theory that I've had for awhile and if done right could make for a very interesting and controvercial read. I love controversy
A novel about Jesus and his
apostles being a troupe of conmen swindling people out of their money.
Heres the idea. If any of you have ever read or researched any earlier
Mythologies, Greek Roman etc. they have very striking resemblances to
most if not all of the stories written in the bible.
So a simple
carpenter meets a traveler one day. This traveler has been all around
the world and has seen many things in his long life. He tells this
carpenter (Jesus if you haven't figured it out yet) about the stories
and religions of these distant lands he's seen. Our carpenter hero
decides the simple life of a carpenter is not for him. He's always
wanted to be a performer, see, but the life of a performer isn't always
monetarily feasible. But these stories give him an idea. He works day
and night for the next several months performing many tricks and
illusions, to make himself seem to be... Not of this world, so to
speak. Then, he crafts the stories he's been told into those of his
own, and simplifies things. He thinks to himself "I'd seem much more
important if I was the son of the only god, instead of one of a large
handful of them".
Yada yada you get the point from here. It'd
sure piss a ton of people off... Just a thought, and I've always kinda concidered trying my hand at writing, just never got around to it or had an original enough idea for it. Of course I'm sure no sane publisher would ever put out a book with this subject, but thats what the internet's for anyway.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, ideas anyone? I'm seriously concidering writing this. Of course first I'd have to sit and read the bible cover to cover and take notes, then plot out an entire storyline, but this is a serious theory that I've had for awhile and if done right could make for a very interesting and controvercial read. I love controversy
Comments
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Firslty welcome back Joe... good to see you decided to stick around
and the OT....
Well I have been considering this for a LONG time. I mean write anything about religion and you have a guaranteed market. Who can forget the Southpark episode with Cartman and the Christian Rock Band
I have decided against it up to now because Im basically certain someone would hunt you down and kill you for writing it LOL. I mean look at Salman Rushdie.... I have read the Satanic Verses and apart from the fact that it is a pretty crappy book, I cant even find the bit that Muslims got upset over.... LOL yet he has basically lived in hiding ever since.
I guess the idea is not in question in terms of its potential. The question is can you live with the success
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
well, here are some suggestions and a little bit of wisdom regarding this topic:
You would have to take into account that the entire old testament was written before jesus was borne and was already apart of the established Jewish religion in which Jesus was a member of.
Jesus did not write any books in the new testament.
The only thing Jesus could have made up was the fact that he was the son of God and the miricles he performed.
Is it possible that Jesus was not the true christ? Jews and Muslims already seem to think so.
There you go.
Well, I realize that it' suppossed to be parody/satire, I guess. But, that really only works (IMO) if it's at least somewhat based on a plausible alternative. Such as your conmen-swindler idea. However, the fact was the apostles were pretty much broke, vilified, martyred, etc. Basically, your audience would be left asking themselves why they'd choose that schtick for their con. And why their earliest disciples would continue it under such violent persecution. While basically gaining nothing in material payment for it. In fact, they often lost all they had, sometimes their lives. Of course you can still give it a shot.
Lampooning christianity is rather common, and you don't see us responding with violence at an alarming rate. So, I don't think you'd need fear being targeted with violence, as was mentioned earlier. It's not just that I'm christian, that I mention the above problems I think people would have with the basis of your story. Just from a historical point of view. I think even most non-christians are just too familiar with the plight Jesus and his apostles went through to buy that they did it for material gain. I just tend to require a plausible twist, in alternative history type novels, to suspend my sense of disbelief. Even if the novel is meant to comedy. Otherwise, I just get caught up asking "Wait, why would they even have done that?". Just an opinion.
I'm sure you or anyone else on this board would have some interest in the idea of being famous for 2000+ years after your death, being spoken of in the way Jesus has been. And on Jesus' martyrdom and eventual death, you also forget (and again, correct me if I'm wrong), much of the bible was written by his followers, not his persecuters. In this light, things can obviously come out one-sided, especially when written thru word of mouth. Storytellers of that day didn't have any visual ways to tell their story, so often they would change things around, either to make their hero seem more heroic or to just add genuine action in the mix to create interest. If the story ended with Jesus being the bad guy, people wouldn't have been as genuinely interested in the story, would they? Jesus himself may very well have been killed not simply for blasphemy, but because perhaps they caught him performing one of his illusions and saw how he did it.
I feel genuinely sorry for Athiests...a life philosophy that tells you "your life is a chance occurance with no real meaning and when you die you are gone forever"
I don't understand why anyone would want to subscribe to that, I can understand why an uneducated (but schooled) person would believe in evolution, but no belief in a God is something that I cannot fathom.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Please don't feel sorry for atheists, we are hero's deserving of your respect not pity. To be able to look reality in the eye, know it for what it is, and still live a productive and fulfilling life, that is not something to be pitied.
As for whether an atheist "wants" to subscribe to atheism, well in the beginning I didn't. Emotionally I found it difficult to come to terms with, but the truth, and intellectually I believe it is the truth, won't change based on my feelings. I had a choice, suck it up and live like a man, or hide behind some web of contradictory lies.
To me it is like growing up, putting aside the childish fantasies and fairy stories designed to protect us from the harshness of life, and dealing with the truth. In the end it is quite liberating, though certain parts are harder to deal with, for instance the idea of no form of cosmic justice, if someone gets away with something, then they get away with it period. As an ex christian I hate this, how I wish villains got their punishment, but again, it's just the way things are, so there is no point me getting stressed by it.
Believe what you want but please don't patronise atheists with your pity.
EDIT: spelling
I too feel sorry for atheists for a number of reasons.
First of all, I feel sorry that your life doesn't really hold any special meaning in the big picture. Like you're just another ant on the hill, and soon you'll be gone and forgotten. That seems a very bleak existance to me.
I feel sorry that you don't know the strength of faith and belief, and the feeling that there is a higher power out there who loves you just as much as your friends and family do.
More importantly though, I feel sorry for atheists because just about every atheist I have met has basically tried to define themselves by wanting to discredit one religion or another (christianity most often). I feel sorry that you guys can't simply be non-believers like the term atheist implies, but that the majority of you feel it's your duty as an atheist to be anti-religion.
Regarding your novel though. It's most definately fiction, which I'm sure you know. You are also incredibly naieve if you don't see this as a thinly veiled attack on Christianity. I just don't see it as necessary. Whether it's fiction or not, if you say these things about Christ then people are going to be upset. We feel that Christ is our saviour and did great things for us, that he sacrificed himself for us. You take any figure you like and I know you'd be upset if someone wrote a novel where this figure turned out to be a fake.
I tell you what, you go write your novel, and I'll write one too. I'm a great writer. My book is gonna be about you and your family. See it's just fiction, but in my novel your father is a pedophile who actually raped you when you were 5, and its about you getting to know your father while you visit him in prison for his crimes. You started visiting him because you felt alone in the world and needed to reach out, but it's hard because of what he did to you. Your mom isn't around because during the 90's she got hooked on cocaine and OD'ed, she never recovered from your father being sent to jail. Another driving factor in your relationship with your father (that you want to reconcile) is the fact that even though he molested and raped you while you were a small boy, you don't have much time left. Your time is short because you contracted aids while sharing needles as you were indulging in massive drug habits. I think it could be a really great book. It'll be about the devestation of a family because of the acts of the father, and how it fragmented this family unit. I think I'll have a very sad ending, like the father gets stabbed in the showers before the last day you go to see him, and you never get a final goodbye. Hey I bet I could get a screenplay out of this.
Obviously that story is total fiction, as is yours. You are naieve if you don't understand that whatever you write, whether it's truth or fiction, can still insult, attack, and hurt people. I mean, it's completely your right to write your novel even if it's more or less a thinly veiled attack on Christianity, an attempt to undermine our beliefs about Christ. However, it's also completely my right to write the novel above where your father is a convicted pedophile and your family is dead and you have aids. Just make sure you're prepared to accept the consequences if you do write this book.
In the end, I'm sure you're not writing a book. More likely you just started this thread as flamebait to try and get Christians to get upset at you. I don't see why atheists are so obsessed with what the Christian church thinks. I mean, if you're truely atheists doesn't that mean you shouldn't care what we think? Why try to upset us and undermine us?
That's why I truely feel sorry for atheists, their apparent need to define themselves as anti-christian.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Looks like it worked
Its always interesting to note that the people that follow a religion always seem to be the ones who end up being the most aggressive and arrogant, and who usually plumb moral depths to make their point (Blurr's little peadophilia story idea and OneMUslins invitation for the guy to incinerate himself).
I thought you guys were all about peace, love and tolerance?
Hypocrisy FTW
Victory? as in attacking us in some sort of war?
What sort of peaceful follower of God would behave in that manner?
Again agression and intolerance from the very people who are supposed to exemplify the very opposite.
Edit: Ive made this point several times, but its worth repeating, if God truly exists and finally made an appearance to speak to his people, he would be APPALLED at the behaviour of the people who claim to follow his teachings.
Victory? as in attacking us in some sort of war?
What sort of peaceful follower of God would behave in that manner?
Again agression and intolerance from the very people who are supposed to exemplify the very opposite.
Edit: Ive made this point several times, but its worth repeating, if God truly exists and finally made an appearance to speak to his people, he would be APPALLED at the behaviour of the people who claim to follow his teachings.
ok umm, will you listen to me when i speak to you about the story of what will happen? cus i have a very generalized statement over there.
However, the fact was the apostles were pretty much broke, vilified, martyred, etc. Basically, your audience would be left asking themselves why they'd choose that schtick for their con.
Pretty much what I thought of the moment I read of Christ as a con-man. There is the part about him being nailed to the cross, although Muslims would tell you differently. Your best bet would be to look at the Islamic account and try to discredit Christ from there (at least I think it would be). However, you'd have to do a lot of research before any of this would be anything other than simple conjecture. Well, lack of time has forced me to make a post on the go. Gotta get goin'.
PS. Just as an aside, I don't know whether you'd be targeted or not for assassination because of a book like this (lol).
Although you'd certainly have your mal-content emails and other works coming out trying to discredit you and such. Just look at the Divinci Code and what happened there.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Acutally you're not far from the truth. Jesus and his "disciples" were not the only group of people doing what they did at that time. It was actually quite common. Kind of like Hippies in volkswagon vans back in the 60's.
There's no evidence (not a single piece) that Jesus was real.
Most of the Old Testament which is the root of Judaism, Christianity and Islam (you know those idiots who believe there is only one god - their god - and all other are infidels or doomed to hell) Is actually based of Egyptian occult teachings. The very teaching that Moses (the primary author of the old testament) was taught while growing up in egypt. There is a distinct correlation between the old testament and the teaching of the Aten. The Aten was the first attempt at monotheism in Egypt. The Aten was actually a ploy by Aten Ra the pharoah to take power from the cults and temples that already existed and wielded a power equal to the pharoah. So i guess you can see what i'm saying. Religion has always been a con that is used to claim power by people with no morals.
Ask the native americans how christians treated them? When did christ teach genocide?
Ask the native africans how Arab muslims treat them? When did Allah teach genocide?
Those are only the 2 most glaring examples of church or mosque suppported genocide.
To borrow from the aten - You should judge a tree by the fruit that it bares. If it bares rotten fruit, tear it up by the roots.
Make a difference!
First, i'd like to congratulate you for not knowing what the hell you are talking about.
Second thing, the old testiment has nothing to do with Islam, the Qur'an is a seperate entity it has nothing to do with it, and it doesn't borrow from it.
Third thing, the egyptian teachings were totally the opposite of what the Bible has brought, so not knowing this makes you the biggest idiot here.
don't blame Christianity on corrupt stupid christians.
Arab Muslims didn't meet native americans, congratulations for spreading lies.
what examples? these are foolish lies without any proof to back them up, regarding Muslims and Native Americans.
tell that to yourself, you should see which roots do you come from and cut them out, and start a new.
he said native africans, not americans.
Just another thing, i watched Morgan Spurlocks 30 days last week, it was about an american christian spending 30 days living as a muslim in a muslim home and community.
He spent a lot of time with the Iman, asking about their beleifs. The Iman himself stated that Christianity, Judaism and Islam branch from interpretations of the same basic religion. The main diffrences he explained were which figures were taken as prophets.
Interesting stuff
Edit: just to throw some balance in, lets not forget the crusades, another excuse to slay human beings in the name of God.
First, i'd like to congratulate you for not knowing what the hell you are talking about.
Second thing, the old testiment has nothing to do with Islam, the Qur'an is a seperate entity it has nothing to do with it, and it doesn't borrow from it.
Third thing, the egyptian teachings were totally the opposite of what the Bible has brought, so not knowing this makes you the biggest idiot here.
don't blame Christianity on corrupt stupid christians.
Arab Muslims didn't meet native americans, congratulations for spreading lies.
what examples? these are foolish lies without any proof to back them up, regarding Muslims and Native Americans.
tell that to yourself, you should see which roots do you come from and cut them out, and start a new.
You owe Copeland an apology for calling him a liar
Islam entered Africa as Muslims conquered North Africa between 640 and 710, beginning with Egypt. They established Mogadishu, Melinde, Mombasa, Kilwa, and Sofala, following the sea trade down the coast of East Africa, and diffusing through the Sahara desert into the interior of Africa -- following in particular the paths of Muslim traders. Muslims were also among the Asian peoples who later settled in British-ruled Africa.
Looks like it worked
Its always interesting to note that the people that follow a religion always seem to be the ones who end up being the most aggressive and arrogant, and who usually plumb moral depths to make their point (Blurr's little peadophilia story idea and OneMUslins invitation for the guy to incinerate himself).
I thought you guys were all about peace, love and tolerance?
Hypocrisy FTW
Actually, this isn't true at all. Internet athiests are some of the moud loud-mouth insulting jerks I've ever had the misfortune of talking to. Luckily, the athiests I've met in real life have been tolerant sane individuals, but the internet seems to turn anyone of strong believes (whether religous or not) into raving mad lunatics.
Nice generalizations though. I suppose stereotypes really do make the world go round.
There is evidence that Jesus did in fact exist, including many Roman text and documents.
As for the Old Testament being influenced by "Egyptian" mythology. Perhaps, but a lot of the religous stories that influence date all the way back to the time of the Ancient Sumerians and Akkadians, and the many of the Egyptian gods are simply borrowed from other cultures that existed before them as well.
I'm not sure of the exact quote, but a man once said, "Don't let the pratice ruin the belief", which simply means that its completely asinine to critisize an entire religion for what SOME choose to use it for. Of course there will always be corrupt men who are able to inspire and lead a great number of people to do horrible acts in the name of religion, just as there will be men who can do it under the believe of racial superioty or cultural beliefs. Honestly, your examples are stupid. I can't put it more elegantly then that. Yeah, Christians killed native americans in the past. Guess what? Many of them also believed that if God "choose" your soul at the beginning of time to ascend into his kingdom, then it didn't really matter what you did on earth. Rape, pillage, and kill.
I don't know what point you're trying to make by bringing up such obvious contradictions to the BASIC FOUNDATIONS of the entire religon, but it certainly didn't work.
There is evidence that Jesus did in fact exist, including many Roman text and documents.
As for the Old Testament being influenced by "Egyptian" mythology. Perhaps, but a lot of the religous stories that influence date all the way back to the time of the Ancient Sumerians and Akkadians, and the many of the Egyptian gods are simply borrowed from other cultures that existed before them as well.
I'm not sure of the exact quote, but a man once said, "Don't let the pratice ruin the belief", which simply means that its completely asinine to critisize an entire religion for what SOME choose to use it for. Of course there will always be corrupt men who are able to inspire and lead a great number of people to do horrible acts in the name of religion, just as there will be men who can do it under the believe of racial superioty or cultural beliefs. Honestly, your examples are stupid. I can't put it more elegantly then that. Yeah, Christians killed native americans in the past. Guess what? Many of them also believed that if God "choose" your soul at the beginning of time to ascend into his kingdom, then it didn't really matter what you did on earth. Rape, pillage, and kill.
I don't know what point you're trying to make by bringing up such obvious contradictions to the BASIC FOUNDATIONS of the entire religon, but it certainly didn't work.
Is the view nice from that fence your sitting on?