Originally posted by OneMuslim Originally posted by Lokimer Is it possible that Jesus was not the true christ? Jews and Muslims already seem to think so. There you go.
I'm sorry to inform you that Muslims believe Jesus to be the christ, every muslim believe that, not to mention that we are awaiting his dexcendance from heaven and his leading us to victory against the anti-christ and his followers of jews and the rest of athiests and disbelieving people, there YOU go.
In the Qur'an, stories about the life and teachings of Jesus Christ (called 'Isa in Arabic) are abundant. The Qur'an recalls his miraculous birth, his teachings, the miracles he performed by God's permission, and his life as a respected prophet of God. The Qur'an also repeatedly reminds that Jesus was a human prophet sent by God, not part of God Himself.
In Islam Jesus isn't the christ, but a just an important prophet of God, christians believe he is christ, part of God himself. There you go.
Originally posted by OneMuslim Originally posted by Copeland Acutally you're not far from the truth. Jesus and his "disciples" were not the only group of people doing what they did at that time. It was actually quite common. Kind of like Hippies in volkswagon vans back in the 60's. There's no evidence (not a single piece) that Jesus was real. Most of the Old Testament which is the root of Judaism, Christianity and Islam (you know those idiots who believe there is only one god - their god - and all other are infidels or doomed to hell) Is actually based of Egyptian occult teachings. The very teaching that Moses (the primary author of the old testament) was taught while growing up in egypt. There is a distinct correlation between the old testament and the teaching of the Aten. The Aten was the first attempt at monotheism in Egypt. The Aten was actually a ploy by Aten Ra the pharoah to take power from the cults and temples that already existed and wielded a power equal to the pharoah. So i guess you can see what i'm saying. Religion has always been a con that is used to claim power by people with no morals. Ask the native americans how christians treated them? When did christ teach genocide? Ask the native africans how Arab muslims treat them? When did Allah teach genocide? Those are only the 2 most glaring examples of church or mosque suppported genocide. To borrow from the aten - You should judge a tree by the fruit that it bares. If it bares rotten fruit, tear it up by the roots. First, i'd like to congratulate you for not knowing what the hell you are talking about. Second thing, the old testiment has nothing to do with Islam, the Qur'an is a seperate entity it has nothing to do with it, and it doesn't borrow from it. Third thing, the egyptian teachings were totally the opposite of what the Bible has brought, so not knowing this makes you the biggest idiot here. don't blame Christianity on corrupt stupid christians. Arab Muslims didn't meet native americans, congratulations for spreading lies. what examples? these are foolish lies without any proof to back them up, regarding Muslims and Native Americans. tell that to yourself, you should see which roots do you come from and cut them out, and start a new.
You raelly need to study the origin of your faith. Islam is rooted in the old testament. Islam is rooted in the new testament. Both Moses and Jesus are prophets in Islam. Half of the old testaments wisdom comes directly from Egyptian occult teaching. Take proverbs for example. The whole book is word for word egyptian teachings. Arab muslims didn't meet native americans. Congratulations on nothing. Arab muslims have enslave and slaughtered Africans. EVEN TODAY IN DARFUR MORE AFRICANS DIE TO ARABS! I was speaking of the catholic genocide in mezoamerica in the late 16th century genius. Your obviously suffering the effects of your mental illness.
Originally posted by Blurr I too feel sorry for atheists for a number of reasons. First of all, I feel sorry that your life doesn't really hold any special meaning in the big picture. Like you're just another ant on the hill, and soon you'll be gone and forgotten. That seems a very bleak existance to me. Is that to say that if you follow a religion you will be remembered and not forgotten? Just because an aethist, or an agnostic, does not follow a specific religion, that does not mean their lives do not hold special meaning. I feel sorry that you don't know the strength of faith and belief, and the feeling that there is a higher power out there who loves you just as much as your friends and family do. Why is it necessary to possess this feeling that there is a higher power watching over you? I can see where it would be rather freeing to know that you are in control of your own life and you have free will. If you follow a religion, free will is somewhat of an illusion. Sure, it may seem that you have free will, but when you follow a god who sees all and knows all and "has a plan for your life"- well, that is not free will. More importantly though, I feel sorry for atheists because just about every atheist I have met has basically tried to define themselves by wanting to discredit one religion or another (christianity most often). I feel sorry that you guys can't simply be non-believers like the term atheist implies, but that the majority of you feel it's your duty as an atheist to be anti-religion. Not all are like that. I used to be a Christian but discontinued my belief as I found it wasn't a fit. I have looked at many religions and found interesting things in many of them, including Islam and Christianity. But, once again, I just cannot believe in it. The closest I came in "accepting" a religion as truth was Buddism. If one chooses to be a Christian, Muslim, Hinduist, etc. that is fine. I have no irks with believers unless they try to convert me. It is understandable that most religions require their followers to convert others, but if I ask politely to leave me alone - that I am not interested - then please do. I could not care less of crosses on highways, etc. I could not care less if any religious symbol was in a public place where it was voted to be placed. It does not offend me or make me feel other's beliefs are being pushed on me. But please, respect my choice not to believe as well. Regarding your novel though. It's most definately fiction, which I'm sure you know. You are also incredibly naieve if you don't see this as a thinly veiled attack on Christianity. I just don't see it as necessary. Whether it's fiction or not, if you say these things about Christ then people are going to be upset. That is the problem with the world today. People get "hurt" easily. If someone says something about your religion that offends you, then move on. If you hold your beliefs in such high convictions, then you should not care what others say. That's why I truely feel sorry for atheists, their apparent need to define themselves as anti-christian. I do not define myself as "anti" anything. I just have not found something that would fit my life in the terms I wish to believe. Most monothestic religions are based on the principle of "Believe in me and you go to heaven, don't and you burn in a fiery hell". Scare tactics do not interest me in a religion.
Originally posted by Dekron Originally posted by Blurr I too feel sorry for atheists for a number of reasons. First of all, I feel sorry that your life doesn't really hold any special meaning in the big picture. Like you're just another ant on the hill, and soon you'll be gone and forgotten. That seems a very bleak existance to me. Is that to say that if you follow a religion you will be remembered and not forgotten? Just because an aethist, or an agnostic, does not follow a specific religion, that does not mean their lives do not hold special meaning. Famous Atheists: Woody Allen, Kurt Vonnegute jr., Karl Marx, Frederick Neitsche, Bruce Lee, Bill Gates, Isaac Asimov, etc. I feel sorry that you don't know the strength of faith and belief, and the feeling that there is a higher power out there who loves you just as much as your friends and family do. Why is it necessary to possess this feeling that there is a higher power watching over you? I can see where it would be rather freeing to know that you are in control of your own life and you have free will. If you follow a religion, free will is somewhat of an illusion. Sure, it may seem that you have free will, but when you follow a god who sees all and knows all and "has a plan for your life"- well, that is not free will. More importantly though, I feel sorry for atheists because just about every atheist I have met has basically tried to define themselves by wanting to discredit one religion or another (christianity most often). I feel sorry that you guys can't simply be non-believers like the term atheist implies, but that the majority of you feel it's your duty as an atheist to be anti-religion. Not all are like that. I used to be a Christian but discontinued my belief as I found it wasn't a fit. I have looked at many religions and found interesting things in many of them, including Islam and Christianity. But, once again, I just cannot believe in it. The closest I came in "accepting" a religion as truth was Buddism. If one chooses to be a Christian, Muslim, Hinduist, etc. that is fine. I have no irks with believers unless they try to convert me. It is understandable that most religions require their followers to convert others, but if I ask politely to leave me alone - that I am not interested - then please do. I could not care less of crosses on highways, etc. I could not care less if any religious symbol was in a public place where it was voted to be placed. It does not offend me or make me feel other's beliefs are being pushed on me. But please, respect my choice not to believe as well. Regarding your novel though. It's most definately fiction, which I'm sure you know. You are also incredibly naieve if you don't see this as a thinly veiled attack on Christianity. I just don't see it as necessary. Whether it's fiction or not, if you say these things about Christ then people are going to be upset. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgHfq0epSJg Now this isn't a veiled attack at all That is the problem with the world today. People get "hurt" easily. If someone says something about your religion that offends you, then move on. If you hold your beliefs in such high convictions, then you should not care what others say. That's why I truely feel sorry for atheists, their apparent need to define themselves as anti-christian. I do not define myself as "anti" anything. I just have not found something that would fit my life in the terms I wish to believe. Most monothestic religions are based on the principle of "Believe in me and you go to heaven, don't and you burn in a fiery hell". Scare tactics do not interest me in a religion. There is a difference between strong and weak atheism. Some athiests have the conviction that religion is the opiate of the masses. That's what they believe and they will try to get others to think their way just as christians, muslims and others try to "save" atheists as well. We're all just trying to "save" eachother. How does it feel to be on the other end of the "you're going to hell if you don't believe " stick?
As an aside, I believe it was possible that Hercules existed. Afterall, history is filled with examples of great men later being portrayed as gods and worshipped. I'm not saying that I believe he existed, but myths sometimes (if not often) have their origin in truth. It's sometimes easy to discredit someone who was so widely believed in and spoken of by simply appealing to someone's biases regarding mythology or religion. But to discredit them based on reason is another matter.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
[quote]Originally posted by Adreal [b]Hey, Copeland, check out [url=http://www.uhcg.org/news/is-bible-true.html] and search for THE DAYS OF THE FALL OF THE TEMPLE. Then when you find that heading, read the six paragraphs that follow. In the sixth paragraph it talks about the Pilate Inscription. For more reading on the inscription, check out [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate]. For other Biblical Archaeological links, check out [url=http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/archeology.html]. As an aside, I believe it was possible that Hercules existed. Afterall, history is filled with examples of great men later being portrayed as gods and worshipped. I'm not saying that I believe he existed, but myths sometimes (if not often) have their origin in truth. It's sometimes easy to discredit someone who was so widely believed in and spoken of by simply appealing to someone's biases regarding mythology or religion. But to discredit them based on reason is another matter.[/b][/quote]
Actually there are many corelations between the story of Hercules and Jesus. So many that many historians believe much like christmas the story of Jesus's life was lifted from the cult of hercules to help pagans convert. And that in a nutshell is the problem with those religions. They are made for one thing. Control. When you understand the origin of religion the shroud of mysticism is lifted. The perversions that people accept as their religion without ever looking into the origin of the practice is shocking. I have researched the origin those 3 belief systems very thoroughly. I get alot of people arguing that just cannot accept that their faith is just a perversion of a previous one. Whats really shocking is Christianity and Islam which are 4th generation perversions derived from older Cults worshipped by different names in different places but all the parrables and lessons were the same. What hasn't changed is what these religions teach and stress. Control. Be a good little follower and you shall be rewarded when your dead. Ofcourse what do the people in control really care about what happens to you when your dead? You've already dedicated your whole life to them.
What's even funnier is that these fools err people who are fooled into following these paths can take scientific evidence handed to them in the form of fossils and DNA and turn a blind eye to it calling it all a lie or trying to pervert it to make people believe that giant men once roamed the earth.
Originally posted by Copeland Originally posted by lardmouth The amount of venom spewed at the religious on this forum has led me to coin the term "Religiphobes." I like it. Religiphobe or intelligent person?
Originally posted by lardmouth Originally posted by Copeland Originally posted by lardmouthThe amount of venom spewed at the religious on this forum has led me to coin the term "Religiphobes." I like it. Religiphobe or intelligent person? Religiphobe.
I only fear religion in so much as i fear the stupid. It's just like groups in EQ or WoW. The stupid always end up getting you killed. I see it playing out in the real world everyday too.
Originally posted by janjanson Please don't feel sorry for atheists, we are hero's deserving of your respect not pity. To be able to look reality in the eye, know it for what it is, and still live a productive and fulfilling life, that is not something to be pitied.
As for whether an atheist "wants" to subscribe to atheism, well in the beginning I didn't. Emotionally I found it difficult to come to terms with, but the truth, and intellectually I believe it is the truth, won't change based on my feelings. I had a choice, suck it up and live like a man, or hide behind some web of contradictory lies.
To me it is like growing up, putting aside the childish fantasies and fairy stories designed to protect us from the harshness of life, and dealing with the truth. In the end it is quite liberating, though certain parts are harder to deal with, for instance the idea of no form of cosmic justice, if someone gets away with something, then they get away with it period. As an ex christian I hate this, how I wish villains got their punishment, but again, it's just the way things are, so there is no point me getting stressed by it.
Believe what you want but please don't patronise atheists with your pity.
EDIT: spelling
what exactly is heroic about being an athiest? It's not more heroic than being a part of any other religious faith...just because you choose to believe that you were created by chance and evolution does not make you a hero.
Childish fantasies...call the teachings of the Bible what you will, but I have yet to meet a person who was educated on the subject that did not believe in a God of any type.
Notable believer in God: Albert Einstein.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by ConverseSC Originally posted by Tamalan Originally posted by Blurr In the end, I'm sure you're not writing a book. More likely you just started this thread as flamebait to try and get Christians to get upset at you. I don't see why atheists are so obsessed with what the Christian church thinks. I mean, if you're truely atheists doesn't that mean you shouldn't care what we think? Why try to upset us and undermine us? That's why I truely feel sorry for atheists, their apparent need to define themselves as anti-christian.
Looks like it worked
Its always interesting to note that the people that follow a religion always seem to be the ones who end up being the most aggressive and arrogant, and who usually plumb moral depths to make their point (Blurr's little peadophilia story idea and OneMUslins invitation for the guy to incinerate himself).
I thought you guys were all about peace, love and tolerance?
Hypocrisy FTW
Actually, this isn't true at all. Internet athiests are some of the moud loud-mouth insulting jerks I've ever had the misfortune of talking to. Luckily, the athiests I've met in real life have been tolerant sane individuals, but the internet seems to turn anyone of strong believes (whether religous or not) into raving mad lunatics.
Nice generalizations though. I suppose stereotypes really do make the world go round.
Quoted for Truth.
I hardly think I'm being 'agressive' or 'violent' by responding the same way the original poster outlined. That's called 'playing fair'.
Dekron I wanted to point out that I honestly don't have a problem with atheism in general. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe and that's perfectly fine with me. In fact, I encourage people to find the religion that best fits for them, because true religion isn't about how many times you pray per day, or what animals you eat, it's about finding a relationship with yourself and the universe. If your religion (or lack thereof) is not rewarding for you spiritually, then it doesn't make sense to continue in that fashion.
The whole part about "feeling sorry" for people was a little exaggerated just because that other guy reacted so much to when someone else said it, it wasn't really the point I was trying to make.
As ConverseSC said though, my problem is with the atheists that do things like generalize christianity as one uniform body, attack Christ and anything christian for some unknown reason, and things like that. Take the original poster for example. He obviously dislikes christianity, enough to start a thread that basically says "Hey I'm gonna write a book where the guy who you define your religion by is actually a conman." That's absolutely abhorrent. For whatever reason, he feels it's his duty to attack Christianity.
Tamalan talks about 'plumbing moral depths to make a point', yet he completely ignores the fact that the original poster did exactly that by suggesting that Christ was a con artist. Obviously the whole thing was meant to insult Christians, and I simply responded in kind by providing a similar story that would insult him. Don't complain to me if he can't take his own medicine. Tamalan talks about 'peace and love and tolerance' while again ignoring the fact that the thread is basically an attempt to undermine christianity. When someone attacks you, you have a right to defend yourself. Had he not started implying that Christ was a conman, I would not have any problem with him at all. Hypocrisy is all the internet atheists who claim that Christianity is trying to force it's beliefs on them, and they then turn around and try to refute Christianity, and force their beliefs on us.
In short, generally Dekron I have no problem with atheists who (like you apparently) don't go around attacking religions, or try to force their beliefs on others. It's the few who will start threads like this that give atheists a bad name. Sadly, since they are the vocal group on this board, they are all we see of atheism.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Originally posted by Blurr Quoted for Truth. I hardly think I'm being 'agressive' or 'violent' by responding the same way the original poster outlined. That's called 'playing fair'. Dekron I wanted to point out that I honestly don't have a problem with atheism in general. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe and that's perfectly fine with me. In fact, I encourage people to find the religion that best fits for them, because true religion isn't about how many times you pray per day, or what animals you eat, it's about finding a relationship with yourself and the universe. If your religion (or lack thereof) is not rewarding for you spiritually, then it doesn't make sense to continue in that fashion. The whole part about "feeling sorry" for people was a little exaggerated just because that other guy reacted so much to when someone else said it, it wasn't really the point I was trying to make. As ConverseSC said though, my problem is with the atheists that do things like generalize christianity as one uniform body, attack Christ and anything christian for some unknown reason, and things like that. Take the original poster for example. He obviously dislikes christianity, enough to start a thread that basically says "Hey I'm gonna write a book where the guy who you define your religion by is actually a conman." That's absolutely abhorrent. For whatever reason, he feels it's his duty to attack Christianity. Tamalan talks about 'plumbing moral depths to make a point', yet he completely ignores the fact that the original poster did exactly that by suggesting that Christ was a con artist. Obviously the whole thing was meant to insult Christians, and I simply responded in kind by providing a similar story that would insult him. Don't complain to me if he can't take his own medicine. Tamalan talks about 'peace and love and tolerance' while again ignoring the fact that the thread is basically an attempt to undermine christianity. When someone attacks you, you have a right to defend yourself. Had he not started implying that Christ was a conman, I would not have any problem with him at all. Hypocrisy is all the internet atheists who claim that Christianity is trying to force it's beliefs on them, and they then turn around and try to refute Christianity, and force their beliefs on us. In short, generally Dekron I have no problem with atheists who (like you apparently) don't go around attacking religions, or try to force their beliefs on others. It's the few who will start threads like this that give atheists a bad name. Sadly, since they are the vocal group on this board, they are all we see of atheism.
Basically sums it up for me. It reminds me alot of some of my college courses. Inevitably religion (usually christianity) would come up in some discussions. It was like blood in the water. And the Sharks couldn't resist jumping into a feeding frenzy. Just vile, red-faced frothing out of the mouth responses. Some of it much like many of the responses here...direct personal attacks on people of faith. I'd wait for them to gorge a bit, usually, then I'd say something like "Wow, I thought us christians were supposed to be the loud mouth, shout you down, fanatical zealots passing judgements." It's funny too, because I can't remember one of those debates amongst my classmates not being started by some non-religious/christian. And then I look at the topics started recently and I see that they're undercutting religion (usually christianity). Then I compare the lack of "repent and convert" topics. Exactly who is getting into whose face?
Originally posted by Blurr Tamalan talks about 'peace and love and tolerance' while again ignoring the fact that the thread is basically an attempt to undermine christianity. When someone attacks you, you have a right to defend yourself.
Didnt Jesus teach his followers to "turn the other cheek"?
Isnt a true christian supposed to ignore all this?
or are you more of a 'wrath of god' 'eye for an eye' christian?
Edit: you seem to be singling me out as someone who attacks/undermines Christians, i think thats unfair and unfounded.
Originally posted by Tamalan Didnt Jesus teach his followers to "turn the other cheek"? Isnt a true christian supposed to ignore all this? or are you more of a 'wrath of god' 'eye for an eye' christian?
It doesn't require one to be mute. Or, do you seriously compare his words to a "wrath of god" type christian? Just words?
Originally posted by Blurr it's about finding a relationship with yourself and the universe. If your religion (or lack thereof) is not rewarding for you spiritually, then it doesn't make sense to continue in that fashion.
Now here is an excellent point for me to describe my own feelings.
You see I have never in my life felt "spiritually unfullfilled" even though I have almost always been a dictionary agnostic.
I flirted with religion in my teens. I attended various churches etc trying to find out what the attraction was and the sight of people praying, singing and speaking in tounges always struck me as more bizzarre than attractive.
My relationship with the universe is defined by knowledge and understanding, not by gut feelings and supposition. I try every day to educate myself as much as I can on the topics I believe will eventually unlock these mysteries. I believe those topics to be Biology, Physics, Cosmology and Math, not Theology.
Having said all that I think the reason I am extremely comfortable with my accepted position in the universe, variously described in this thread as both "meaningless" and "an ant in an ant hill", is that I have always found it unfathomably arrogant to believe I am anything more than that.
People die in their thousands and millions every day. People who have never heard of Christianity, Islam, Judeaism etc. If the notion is that all those people are off to an eternity of fire and brimstone, simply because of thier geographical fortune. Then I find that notion both unacceptable and of course unbelievable.
Science is attractive to me because when you understand how science works. You realise there are NO answers, only questions. Theology is unattractive to me because when you understand how it works you realise there are NO questions, only answers and that all those answers boil down to one answer. God did it.
Nothing is that simple.
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Originally posted by lardmouth Originally posted by Tamalan Didnt Jesus teach his followers to "turn the other cheek"? Isnt a true christian supposed to ignore all this? or are you more of a 'wrath of god' 'eye for an eye' christian?
It doesn't require one to be mute. Or, do you seriously compare his words to a "wrath of god" type christian? Just words?
you dont seem to be answering my questions, whats the problem?
Those are from the first three pages. Maybe they could be consolidated under the topic "Come take your potshots at the Religious here!" Again, christians are suppossed to be the loud mouth, pushy, preachy, in your face types?
Originally posted by Tamalan you dont seem to be answering my questions, whats the problem?
Are you kidding?
You asked about turning the other cheek. I said, it doesn't require one to be mute or unable to express an opinion.
You implied he was acting more like a wrath of god type Christian. And I asked a rhetorical question to illustrate the folly of such an implication. How in the world is expressing himself with nothing more than language a "wrath of God" type action?
I was taught in school that the bible isnt a true representaion of the worlds history and creation, more that it is a book of stories and metaphors told by Jesus and his followers to guide us through life.
This was taught to me in Religious Education classes, by a Vicar of the Church of England.
The same opinion was given to me by an ex-gf's aunt, who was (still is) a Deaconess in the Anglican Church. I had many of the same conversations we are having here, but she didnt see it as me attacking Christianity, but asking some pretty basic questions about some of the obvious double standards some christians seem to possess.
So are they wrong too?
Edit: Im not asking you these questions to attack your faith, but to try and understand your point of view, do me the courtesy of not lumping me in with other 'foul mouthed athiests'. Think ive been pretty polite.
I don't understand why anyone would want to subscribe to that, I can understand why an uneducated (but schooled) person would believe in evolution, but no belief in a God is something that I cannot fathom.
Faith in an invisible man that nobody has ever seen, heard or spoken to is something I cannot fathom. I know some people claim to have done these things. But we have more scientific proof of ghosts than we do god. Truth is we're all nothing but space dust.
Originally posted by Tamalan See, here is something else thats bothering me... I was taught in school that the bible isnt a true representaion of the worlds history and creation, more that it is a book of stories and metaphors told by Jesus and his followers to guide us through life. This was taught to me in Religious Education classes, by a Vicar of the Church of England. The same opinion was given to me my an ex-gf's aunt, who was (still is) a Deaconess in the Anglican Church. I had many of the same conversations we are having here, but she didnt see it as me attacking Christianity, but asking some pretty basic questions about some of the obvious double standards some christians seem to possess. So are they wrong too?
According to my own faith? Partly yes, partly no. But, I'm not going to jump into a frenzy in an attempt to lampoon them. I don't have an issue with just disagreeing. But, in the midst of the disagreeing here, there's been a hell of alot of personal shots about the intelligence and sanity of religious people. There is alot of below the belt snide remarks. You have people refering to us as mentally ill, uneducated, knuckle-draggers. Heck, one poster quipped that our children should be removed from us. The funny thing is we haven't been the ones starting a majority of these topics. One would think we've been making multiple topics trying to convert people. Instead, it's us who've been responding to threads that involve our beliefs.
Originally posted by Tamalan See, here is something else thats bothering me... I was taught in school that the bible isnt a true representaion of the worlds history and creation, more that it is a book of stories and metaphors told by Jesus and his followers to guide us through life. This was taught to me in Religious Education classes, by a Vicar of the Church of England. The same opinion was given to me my an ex-gf's aunt, who was (still is) a Deaconess in the Anglican Church. I had many of the same conversations we are having here, but she didnt see it as me attacking Christianity, but asking some pretty basic questions about some of the obvious double standards some christians seem to possess. So are they wrong too? Edit: Im not asking you these questions to attack your faith, but to try and understand your point of view, do me the courtesy of not lumping me in with other 'foul mouthed athiests'. Think ive been pretty polite.
Well thats not quite true... The stories of the bible are Stories when they are told as stories.. for example... the Parables of jesus... He told tonnes of stories to get his point across..
But other than that It is largely a history book. And most of the accounts of the old testament and new testament are just history of the trials of Christians and jews.
That history serves as a guide for us. Show us what went wrong and what we should stay away from.
Jesus didn't "Tell" these stories... For example the Old testament was written hundreds of years before jesus was even born... And even then... The stories of the old testament are probably older stories than that that were carried down by word.. And many have been confirmed....
If those people said they were "stories" then they probably meant that these were things that were carried down between generation... And alot of them carry a specific context so you shouldn't take litterally... For example A man in the old testament sacrifices his virgin daughter to god... but the context was that he made a promise a solemn vow... and the vow was bases on the insecurity of "the first thing he sees when he opens the door"... But this in no way means that sacrificing a human is right..
And what double standards are you speaking of? I'm sure we can clear that up.
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
So your telling me that these people ive known, who have spent years in Divinity school and dedicated their lives to the christian faith are wrong>?
You have to understand why is see double standards when christians who use the same source material, the bible, cant even agree between themselves which is correct.
Think if i ever choose a faith, im gonna go Wicca :P
Comments
In the Qur'an, stories about the life and teachings of Jesus Christ (called 'Isa in Arabic) are abundant. The Qur'an recalls his miraculous birth, his teachings, the miracles he performed by God's permission, and his life as a respected prophet of God. The Qur'an also repeatedly reminds that Jesus was a human prophet sent by God, not part of God Himself.
In Islam Jesus isn't the christ, but a just an important prophet of God, christians believe he is christ, part of God himself. There you go.
You raelly need to study the origin of your faith. Islam is rooted in the old testament. Islam is rooted in the new testament. Both Moses and Jesus are prophets in Islam. Half of the old testaments wisdom comes directly from Egyptian occult teaching. Take proverbs for example. The whole book is word for word egyptian teachings. Arab muslims didn't meet native americans. Congratulations on nothing. Arab muslims have enslave and slaughtered Africans. EVEN TODAY IN DARFUR MORE AFRICANS DIE TO ARABS! I was speaking of the catholic genocide in mezoamerica in the late 16th century genius. Your obviously suffering the effects of your mental illness.
Make a difference!
Just how many threads does it take for you folks to get your anti-religious jollies?
Hey, Copeland, check out http://www.uhcg.org/news/is-bible-true.html and search for THE DAYS OF THE FALL OF THE TEMPLE. Then when you find that heading, read the six paragraphs that follow. In the sixth paragraph it talks about the Pilate Inscription. For more reading on the inscription, check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate. For other Biblical Archaeological links, check out http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/archeology.html.
As an aside, I believe it was possible that Hercules existed. Afterall, history is filled with examples of great men later being portrayed as gods and worshipped. I'm not saying that I believe he existed, but myths sometimes (if not often) have their origin in truth. It's sometimes easy to discredit someone who was so widely believed in and spoken of by simply appealing to someone's biases regarding mythology or religion. But to discredit them based on reason is another matter.
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[quote]Originally posted by Adreal
[b]Hey, Copeland, check out [url=http://www.uhcg.org/news/is-bible-true.html] and search for THE DAYS OF THE FALL OF THE TEMPLE. Then when you find that heading, read the six paragraphs that follow. In the sixth paragraph it talks about the Pilate Inscription. For more reading on the inscription, check out [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate]. For other Biblical Archaeological links, check out [url=http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/archeology.html].
As an aside, I believe it was possible that Hercules existed. Afterall, history is filled with examples of great men later being portrayed as gods and worshipped. I'm not saying that I believe he existed, but myths sometimes (if not often) have their origin in truth. It's sometimes easy to discredit someone who was so widely believed in and spoken of by simply appealing to someone's biases regarding mythology or religion. But to discredit them based on reason is another matter.[/b][/quote]
Actually there are many corelations between the story of Hercules and Jesus. So many that many historians believe much like christmas the story of Jesus's life was lifted from the cult of hercules to help pagans convert. And that in a nutshell is the problem with those religions. They are made for one thing. Control. When you understand the origin of religion the shroud of mysticism is lifted. The perversions that people accept as their religion without ever looking into the origin of the practice is shocking. I have researched the origin those 3 belief systems very thoroughly. I get alot of people arguing that just cannot accept that their faith is just a perversion of a previous one. Whats really shocking is Christianity and Islam which are 4th generation perversions derived from older Cults worshipped by different names in different places but all the parrables and lessons were the same. What hasn't changed is what these religions teach and stress. Control. Be a good little follower and you shall be rewarded when your dead. Ofcourse what do the people in control really care about what happens to you when your dead? You've already dedicated your whole life to them.
What's even funnier is that these fools err people who are fooled into following these paths can take scientific evidence handed to them in the form of fossils and DNA and turn a blind eye to it calling it all a lie or trying to pervert it to make people believe that giant men once roamed the earth.
Make a difference!
The amount of venom spewed at the religious on this forum has led me to coin the term "Religiphobes." I like it.
Originally posted by lardmouth
The amount of venom spewed at the religious on this forum has led me to coin the term "Religiphobes." I like it.
Religiphobe or intelligent person?
Make a difference!
I only fear religion in so much as i fear the stupid. It's just like groups in EQ or WoW. The stupid always end up getting you killed. I see it playing out in the real world everyday too.
Make a difference!
As for whether an atheist "wants" to subscribe to atheism, well in the beginning I didn't. Emotionally I found it difficult to come to terms with, but the truth, and intellectually I believe it is the truth, won't change based on my feelings. I had a choice, suck it up and live like a man, or hide behind some web of contradictory lies.
To me it is like growing up, putting aside the childish fantasies and fairy stories designed to protect us from the harshness of life, and dealing with the truth. In the end it is quite liberating, though certain parts are harder to deal with, for instance the idea of no form of cosmic justice, if someone gets away with something, then they get away with it period. As an ex christian I hate this, how I wish villains got their punishment, but again, it's just the way things are, so there is no point me getting stressed by it.
Believe what you want but please don't patronise atheists with your pity.
EDIT: spelling
what exactly is heroic about being an athiest? It's not more heroic than being a part of any other religious faith...just because you choose to believe that you were created by chance and evolution does not make you a hero.
Childish fantasies...call the teachings of the Bible what you will, but I have yet to meet a person who was educated on the subject that did not believe in a God of any type.
Notable believer in God: Albert Einstein.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Looks like it worked
Its always interesting to note that the people that follow a religion always seem to be the ones who end up being the most aggressive and arrogant, and who usually plumb moral depths to make their point (Blurr's little peadophilia story idea and OneMUslins invitation for the guy to incinerate himself).
I thought you guys were all about peace, love and tolerance?
Hypocrisy FTW
Actually, this isn't true at all. Internet athiests are some of the moud loud-mouth insulting jerks I've ever had the misfortune of talking to. Luckily, the athiests I've met in real life have been tolerant sane individuals, but the internet seems to turn anyone of strong believes (whether religous or not) into raving mad lunatics.
Nice generalizations though. I suppose stereotypes really do make the world go round.
Quoted for Truth.
I hardly think I'm being 'agressive' or 'violent' by responding the same way the original poster outlined. That's called 'playing fair'.
Dekron I wanted to point out that I honestly don't have a problem with atheism in general. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe and that's perfectly fine with me. In fact, I encourage people to find the religion that best fits for them, because true religion isn't about how many times you pray per day, or what animals you eat, it's about finding a relationship with yourself and the universe. If your religion (or lack thereof) is not rewarding for you spiritually, then it doesn't make sense to continue in that fashion.
The whole part about "feeling sorry" for people was a little exaggerated just because that other guy reacted so much to when someone else said it, it wasn't really the point I was trying to make.
As ConverseSC said though, my problem is with the atheists that do things like generalize christianity as one uniform body, attack Christ and anything christian for some unknown reason, and things like that. Take the original poster for example. He obviously dislikes christianity, enough to start a thread that basically says "Hey I'm gonna write a book where the guy who you define your religion by is actually a conman." That's absolutely abhorrent. For whatever reason, he feels it's his duty to attack Christianity.
Tamalan talks about 'plumbing moral depths to make a point', yet he completely ignores the fact that the original poster did exactly that by suggesting that Christ was a con artist. Obviously the whole thing was meant to insult Christians, and I simply responded in kind by providing a similar story that would insult him. Don't complain to me if he can't take his own medicine. Tamalan talks about 'peace and love and tolerance' while again ignoring the fact that the thread is basically an attempt to undermine christianity. When someone attacks you, you have a right to defend yourself. Had he not started implying that Christ was a conman, I would not have any problem with him at all. Hypocrisy is all the internet atheists who claim that Christianity is trying to force it's beliefs on them, and they then turn around and try to refute Christianity, and force their beliefs on us.
In short, generally Dekron I have no problem with atheists who (like you apparently) don't go around attacking religions, or try to force their beliefs on others. It's the few who will start threads like this that give atheists a bad name. Sadly, since they are the vocal group on this board, they are all we see of atheism.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
Didnt Jesus teach his followers to "turn the other cheek"?
Isnt a true christian supposed to ignore all this?
or are you more of a 'wrath of god' 'eye for an eye' christian?
Edit: you seem to be singling me out as someone who attacks/undermines Christians, i think thats unfair and unfounded.
Now here is an excellent point for me to describe my own feelings.
You see I have never in my life felt "spiritually unfullfilled" even though I have almost always been a dictionary agnostic.
I flirted with religion in my teens. I attended various churches etc trying to find out what the attraction was and the sight of people praying, singing and speaking in tounges always struck me as more bizzarre than attractive.
My relationship with the universe is defined by knowledge and understanding, not by gut feelings and supposition. I try every day to educate myself as much as I can on the topics I believe will eventually unlock these mysteries. I believe those topics to be Biology, Physics, Cosmology and Math, not Theology.
Having said all that I think the reason I am extremely comfortable with my accepted position in the universe, variously described in this thread as both "meaningless" and "an ant in an ant hill", is that I have always found it unfathomably arrogant to believe I am anything more than that.
People die in their thousands and millions every day. People who have never heard of Christianity, Islam, Judeaism etc. If the notion is that all those people are off to an eternity of fire and brimstone, simply because of thier geographical fortune. Then I find that notion both unacceptable and of course unbelievable.
Science is attractive to me because when you understand how science works. You realise there are NO answers, only questions. Theology is unattractive to me because when you understand how it works you realise there are NO questions, only answers and that all those answers boil down to one answer. God did it.
Nothing is that simple.
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
you dont seem to be answering my questions, whats the problem?
Jesus Camp
Religious activists and Emo kids are one and the same
Gospel of Mary Magdalene
creationism
The life of Jesus Christ: An atheist's perspective
Those are from the first three pages. Maybe they could be consolidated under the topic "Come take your potshots at the Religious here!" Again, christians are suppossed to be the loud mouth, pushy, preachy, in your face types?
Are you kidding?
You asked about turning the other cheek. I said, it doesn't require one to be mute or unable to express an opinion.
You implied he was acting more like a wrath of god type Christian. And I asked a rhetorical question to illustrate the folly of such an implication. How in the world is expressing himself with nothing more than language a "wrath of God" type action?
See, here is something else thats bothering me...
I was taught in school that the bible isnt a true representaion of the worlds history and creation, more that it is a book of stories and metaphors told by Jesus and his followers to guide us through life.
This was taught to me in Religious Education classes, by a Vicar of the Church of England.
The same opinion was given to me by an ex-gf's aunt, who was (still is) a Deaconess in the Anglican Church. I had many of the same conversations we are having here, but she didnt see it as me attacking Christianity, but asking some pretty basic questions about some of the obvious double standards some christians seem to possess.
So are they wrong too?
Edit: Im not asking you these questions to attack your faith, but to try and understand your point of view, do me the courtesy of not lumping me in with other 'foul mouthed athiests'. Think ive been pretty polite.
But other than that It is largely a history book. And most of the accounts of the old testament and new testament are just history of the trials of Christians and jews.
That history serves as a guide for us. Show us what went wrong and what we should stay away from.
Jesus didn't "Tell" these stories... For example the Old testament was written hundreds of years before jesus was even born... And even then... The stories of the old testament are probably older stories than that that were carried down by word.. And many have been confirmed....
If those people said they were "stories" then they probably meant that these were things that were carried down between generation... And alot of them carry a specific context so you shouldn't take litterally... For example A man in the old testament sacrifices his virgin daughter to god... but the context was that he made a promise a solemn vow... and the vow was bases on the insecurity of "the first thing he sees when he opens the door"... But this in no way means that sacrificing a human is right..
And what double standards are you speaking of? I'm sure we can clear that up.
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<i>ME<i>
So your telling me that these people ive known, who have spent years in Divinity school and dedicated their lives to the christian faith are wrong>?
You have to understand why is see double standards when christians who use the same source material, the bible, cant even agree between themselves which is correct.
Think if i ever choose a faith, im gonna go Wicca :P
Peace to you guys, may your God go with you