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General: Debate: Secondary Market (McQuaid/Kipe)
Dana
Member Posts: 2,415
In this special debate, we secured two people from polar opposite ends of the industry to debate the ethics of the Secondary Market in the MMORPG industry. Brad McQuaid, the CEO of Sigil and Exec. Producer of Vanguard, has been a vocal opponent of the secondary market throughout his career. McQuaid made his legend in the industry by creating EverQuest. Roger Kipe is a long time MMO-player and for a time owned and operated YourVirtualSeller, a secondary market service. The two square off in this
| Brad McQuaid: The secondary market can be good for the average gamer if they want to purchase items or characters as opposed to earning them in-game. Many people want to have these items or characters but either do not have the time to earn them and/or the desire to put the time in necessary to earn them. By using the secondary market, they can get around the otherwise necessary time invested. That said, given that these games are about communities and not single player games, the actions of a single player can and does affect other players - the adage 'no man is an island' applies. Therefore, if the game wasn't designed for purchase of in-game goods or characters via outside means (in other words, buying them from the secondary market), they are doing something that harms that game as a whole. Their action in and of itself may not have immediately apparent negative effects on the game, but over time the more people who take part in the secondary market, the more the game is harmed as a whole. |
The full debate is here.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
"He who has the most money wins. You can't stop us, so you might as well give up now."
I'll never play an RMT game for this very reason. I just hope the people who participate in this self-destructive behavior realize that by doing so, they are completely ruining the game for themselves, and they will never truly be a part of that game's community. Having skipped the larger part (and the most fun part, for most) of character development is crippling, in most games. If you aren't enjoying the game, then go play something else.
MMOs aren't supposed to be about competition, and anyone who believes they are somehow better than the REAL players (because they have more money to spend) has some serious issues.
I am one who doesnt see how the secondary market hurts games. If the secondary market companies are doing things in a legitamate fasion and not exploiting or cheating I dont see any harm in it. If it really did hurt games then MMOs would all fail but they dont because the secondary market is there to help those who dont have the time to put towards getting something. The boat analogy is a very good one. Just because somebody buys a better boat than you built it doesnt take away the pride you have in what you worked towards. Its just many gamers are spoiled brats who would rather everyone have to do EXACTLY what they did to earn what they have but thats not how the world works. Brad says that it takes away the fun of those who earned the items, but on the other hand it adds to the fun of those who bought the stuff.
The problem with the secundary market is, it will destroy the ingame economic. if a sword was woth 100gp to begin with, then after the second market has done their thing it will soon be 10000gp, because ppl just go out and buy the gp with real money.
Suddenly the normal players can't afford this sword because it will be impossibel to earn theese kind of gold in the game.
if you look at linage2. the secondary market has completly made this game about bots. who is a bot and who's not. i think its sad that you have to pay for a monthly fee (thats ok) but besides that you have to buy money on the side just to get a decent sword, these games is about companies earning money not players having some good fun.
sorry for the grammer
Bla bla blabla
Asked this question before but never an answer - with the majority of high end items in games like WOW etc typically bind-on-pickup in an dungeon requiring 40 people to complete. Or quest based / level based - what do gold buyers do with their ill-gotten gains?
Come on, we wont judge you guys / girls - any gold buyers here brave enough to tell us about thier secret shame?
Interesting read, yep yep. The only problem is they picked the wrong guy to interview for the anti-RMT point of view. They should have tapped the CEO of Mythic, Mark Jacobs, instead. Brad's credibility is a little iffy as a champion of anti-RMT these days since he's now working with a company (SOE) that has RMT transactions built into the game itself -- part of the reason for his previously unheard of and now oft-included statement that RMT is OK as long as the game developer is the one making a profit off the transactions.
At that point, you're going to lose some of the support you enjoyed previously from the gamers themselves. If your argument is that the cash from the individual transactions is simply going to the wrong company, you're going to be hard-pressed (as the company receiving monthly payments from the gamer anyway) to hear even a very, very small violin playing. You've switched from guardian of game-play and economics to, frankly, whining that the money should be yours, not theirs.
Like I said, interesting read. It doesn't change GuildPortal's stance on RMT (we're against it, won't advertise it) by any means, but it's time to take away the anti-RMT crown and hand it to someone that holds their ground more firmly, regardless of who their new publisher is. Mythic after all, has never changed their stance on the topic, and as far as lawsuits concerning RMT go, they've actually won.
I do not believe that whether RMT is harmful to the economy of a game and/or the players of the game or not is in any way affected by who gets the money from the individual transactions. It either is or it isn't, regardless of whose pockets are being lined. IMHO, it's harmful, whether the cash goes SOE, Verant, IGE, or anyone else. The practice is the problem, not the routing of the gains.
www.guildportal.com
where by the creator of the virtual item is not in control of
regulating the dollar value is the crux of the issue from my stand
point.
Let me elaborate. Traditional MMORPG's have an EULA which clearly
states that all virtual property and intellectual property belongs to
the company. These same companys do not assign a dollar value to
an item. These items have no dollar value, nor should they.
Let's ponder the legal example illustrated where the individual in
Korea sued for the return of a lost item. Now let's assume the
company in question had lost their entire character and item database,
and were unable to restore or recover the data. In the law suit
the company was required to re-issue a single item to a single
customer. Assuming you no longer have any record of whom owned
what item or what character, how could you prove or disprove a
claim? Add to that, what would happen if a court determined the
company to be legally responsible for the fair market dollar value of
said items?
So I'll stand by my twisted outlook as to why
gaming companys must stick to their guns, and refuse to acknowledge the
legitamacy of the secondary market as doing so would lend precidence to
allowing a third party entity to establish a fair market value of a
virtual item; which in my opinion, is the sole property of the gaming
company.
The secondary market is setting the stage for a very
interesting legal scenario in which the producers of a game could be
sued for the value of virtual property that they created.
Honestly I don't care if people buy gold, just not on my server. Go do it on your own server where you can play with all the rest of the people who don't see the value in achievement.
I really don't see why people with no time but lots of money shouldn't be able to buy something that someone else is willing to give up.
Takes me a couple months to quest/save gold to get an item, takes someone else a day and $100(no clue what ppl buy for but we'll use $100 as an example). BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG DEAAAAAAAAAAL.
anyways, just my opinion of course. Doesn't bother me a bit.
Edit: I suppose this doesn't count for games that say explicitly they don't want you selling stuff. Then I agree you shouldn't since you signed up agreeing not to.
I am going to stir the pot a little.
The secondary market not only emerges from items. But anything of virtual value. Character accounts, rare trading components, mounts, status points, power levelling services, guides, bot programs, etc.
Capitalism finds a way. If there is a demand, someone wiith ingenuity and resourcefulness will find a way to meet that demand.
As long as there are people willing to buy that lvl 60 character, that cheat sheet to get the best exp and loot areas, that 3rd party program which gives them an advantage, a UI program which makes your game easier, that virtual sword, etc. there will always be a secondary market.
Not so sure Brad won that debate. Those ominous words by Mr. Kipe:
"I agree with you Brad, there will be lawsuits in the near future. In fact when I was at E3 in 2006 I talked to many people who were telling me of the lawsuit that was just decided in the Korea. This was a case of a man who bought a sword in game and afterwards it was deleted somehow. He sued NCSoft (as it was Lineage 2) for his sword back. The court decided that he was the one that put all of the time and effort into the game and thus he was the owner of the property. It was the court decision that he would be given back his sword. I would expect that here in the US it will follow suit soon. "
In other words, the players who buy the game may actually be the owners of their virtual items. We shall see.
BTW - This was the best debate I have read since I have been a member of MMORPG.COM
AWESOME JOB !
The Value of Achievement? Great words. But the entire morale is twisted. I worked hard for my money, so why not spent it on a new sword or horse in my hobby - my MMO? My RL money is my achievement as well? I assure you, to me it doesn't come easy. For me a MMO is a hobby as every other. If I collect something, train models, stamps, whatever, well there a person with more money usually also has more. So what? None care a damn, and none should.
In capitalism a person with more money always has more and bigger things, that is how the world goes. You may dislike it, but I'd suggest change the real world into a more fair place first and care for simple games later. I can put my RL achievement - DOLLARS - into every other hobby, even if I then have more, so what?
Essentially a gold or item seller does what free market advocates since the rise of the idea of capitalism: to find a niche and exploit it. Free market means to leave all to demand and request.
Oh and just FYI - inflations was always there, WAY before gold sellers existed. Inflation is the natural flow in free market. The fact is, all really free markets have inflation in numbers, but usually the value relation remains the same. In SWG most things now cost much more credits than when it started, but people also HAVE much more credits, so overall things did not really become more expensive.
All this moral crusade against gold and item sellers is only self-righteos pretense. A gold seller does a job like any job. He works for money in a niche where there is demand. It's as simple as that. That is how the world is running. The alternative to capitalism just proved not to work roughly 16 years ago.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I do not want your real world achievements affecting my game at all. I want to know that if I am hunting with a few other people I just met that they all have the experience that their gear implies they do. I do not like cheaters in real life, or in games.
Your analogy doesn't work either. If you start making your own rare stamps because you happen to own a nice printer, and have a surplus of paper, would you really expect stamp collectors to do anything but deride you? At best, your forged stamps would be worthless. At worst, the forgeries would devalue the value of the stamps owned by real stamp collectors, and eventually get you thrown in prison for fraud.
I am willing to bet that the only reason the farmers who take part in RMT get banned is so they will buy another account. Seriously, do you think any company wants to spend the resources required just to try and stop this market? They actually make more money per person off these people than anyone else so do you think they really care that they are there? Sure, they will ban a few to show that they care but in the end I dont think any of the companies actually care about the secondary market. Plus when they ban these people it nets them more money so I personally think the companies want the secondary market there. I would rather the game companies themselves offer the same things all the RMT people sell so its safer transactions instead of having to buy off the black market but then you get all these whiny people who cry all day about people buying stuff they worked for. But no matter how much you whine you cant stop RMT without designing the game to fight it from the start.
You take the boat analogy wrong, if having a boat is a matter of having money in real life, then the ones owning those boats are either old enough ones having the needed real life money, or the poor ones that has to spend time in playing the game to have that boat. If you think that those poor ones will be proud of having that boat anymore, you are definitely wrong.
Having fun is not the point here. It is a matter of having equality, if hackers are having fun on breaking into the systems by their special tools purchased by their legally owned money, then you can have trouble there finding a game to play.
There is no such thing as innovative, unique, and risky in the gaming world anymore. Its all mass produced crap, like McDonalds. Oh well, at least I can always play Pac man and pong, god knows they are simple games but I still love my classics, because they were fun.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
You take the boat analogy wrong, if having a boat is a matter of having money in real life, then the ones owning those boats are either old enough ones having the needed real life money, or the poor ones that has to spend time in playing the game to have that boat. If you think that those poor ones will be proud of having that boat anymore, you are definitely wrong.
Having fun is not the point here. It is a matter of having equality, if hackers are having fun on breaking into the systems by their special tools purchased by their legally owned money, then you can have trouble there finding a game to play.
You speak of equality but equality also comes in the form of possesions. If someone buys some items with real money then it puts them on equal playing grounds with those who worked for those items. You dont want equality you just want to be better because you can spend more time playing than the other person. Besides, having fun is the point......... if you dont think it is then you shouldnt be playing games. I mean, cheating to have fun is crossing the line but having fun within the boundaries of the game is the whole point. So what if people buy items or money in game to be on a level playing ground with others who can spend more time playing. It doesnt affect the other people at all. I understand how buying maxed out characters causes others pain but just buying gold and items is not a problem.
Being a former gold farmer I've seen both sides of the coin. The monetary gain and the decline of online community.
As a farmer: There is MUCH money to be made doing this if you can keep the influx of money, chars and goods coming in non-stop. I was a school teacher that decided to just stay home and play online games and farm. My wife didn't complain because I made more money as an ingame farmer than a regular school teacher. I was happy at home waking up to put on my suit (my bath robe) and going to work at my desk (just 4 feet away) all day every day for over 2 years.
As a regular gamer: I've been killed out of areas where farmers are applying their trade in several games. Knowing what they were doing I just took my character elsewhere and returned later to see if that area of the game was open so I could complete my quest or grind. Since I NEVER bought any gold or items I have to acquire them in-game by myself, with a group or in a guild. It's tough to pull this off if you have SEVERAL farmers that are in an area non-stop. WoW is a good example- Tyr's Hand (or whatever that area is called in Eastern Plaguelands) I can't even go to because Alliance farmers are there ALL DAY LONG! It sucks, but I know what they are doing and they will defend their livelihoods all day long. I did the same.
Overall: I think any company that wanted to make some EXTRA money should do like Sony and make Exchange Servers (servers where you can buy/sell items and stuff) and make a profit out of it. That's how you can get rid of IGE and the other gold selling websites. Companies are missing out on MILLIONS of dollars by not opening that door.
Eve Online has guilds that are PAYING people to do the PvP for them. OMG- you can be a virtual hit man and not go to jail. The gaming companies need to wake up and smell MORE money. There is no way they will be able to stop it because I've even sold items just by asking a player if they were insterested in buying such and such. Money was wired and I did the trade. Just that simple to do.
If you can't beat them, join them- THEN BEAT THEM!!!
If a game is developed to allow the secondary market like Entropia, or Second Life then I see no problem. Games that are not built for it suffer. The economy suffers, and most of all the community suffers. It is frustrating for a player to put in the time and effort to earn nice equipment only to see joeblow take his or his dad's credit card and buy enough gold to let him purchase everything you have and more. Sure some players don't mind but MMOs are played by many. If we subscribed to the logic that since some people don't mind then it should be allowed then you could say duping and other cheats should be ok as well since some players don't mind... MMO's can't work that way. A company has to look out for the wellbeing of their community overall. not just a few, and if they perceive something to be detrimental to their game, regardless of who else agrees, then they need to act.
If a player likes the idea of a secondary market then they should seek out games that allow it and not screw up games that do not and try to say it should be ok.
Paks
The entire debate could be boiled down to one simple and digestable truth;
It is going to happen anyway.
Many other mmo developers, even some of the most reputed in the field such as this fellow might be successful in their own right, but seem incapable of grasping this fact and thus will always be their folley in one form or another.
I also appreciated the statement that yes, the secondary market is detrimental in games which were not designed with the secondary market in mind which basically equates to the subsequent suffering the develoeprs games themselves [let's say Vanguard] are soon to encounter.
In avoidance of being called a "plug" I'll leave the name of the game we're developing out, however numerous studies and debates back and forth have proven without a shadow of a doubt that if managed, ingame currency sales and the secondary market in general can be turned from a negative force to an overwhelmingly positive force for game developers.
The phrase we used in the past when sitting down with prospective investors was, "Just think if all of that money was going back to the developer instead of the overseas companies..." which has so far yielded really great results because well, it's undilluted truth.
Look at Entropia Universe for instance.
Dated technology with no physical product for revenue-draining retail stores and free to download, yet still rakes in over $160 million a year from only one source of income; Ingame currency sales. Now guestimate that 1/3 of that might be hosting fees, bandwidth and the half a dozen people they have on staff to simply monitor and maintain their one server. Just one server!
As with everything in the modern world, those who can grow as the world around them grows will prosper. Those who cannot adapt and change with the times are doomed to be plowed under.
If there is flaw in my logic please someone let me know. Perhaps there is some minutia of obscure data that I haven't had access to purtaining to why the secondary market is so oft overlooked.
www.Divergence-Online.com
Yes, if they want to stop the booming trend of MMOs as a growth industry, then they should make the secondary market a standard, where you can buy all your great stuff for money, then go and PvP the real players to death. Sure.. Because MMOs are not built upon its community, and do not survive because of that community. I am sure Counter Strike would have been huge today if aimbot was allowed as long as you had bought it from the original company. I am.. Some good points from the Ebay defenders.
Do it... Sure, go do it. All companies create a secondary market, or equipment stores for real money in all MMOs, on all servers, then see where all your costumers went. And when the servers are empty, just with a a few hundred exploiters in each game, you come back here and say its good for the companies again.
I can promise you.. 100% without a doubt.. If one company in such a scenario would release a game without a secondary market... they would take the number one spot in less than a week.
When MMOs began, we paid 15 bucks an hour for a constantly evolving game, patches adding new adventurers and equipment constantly. Today, we pay 15 bucks a month, and they cant even have the servers up for a full week, all new game material we are supposed to pay for and we can be happy if even the expansions add anyhting to the game for a new retail cost.
Now they want us to pay 15 bucks a month for a buggy game that cant have the servers open 7 days a week, dont add anyhting in patches and hardly in epxansions,, and then we have to pay to get new equipment each level as well? yeah... Your ideas to make more money do not hurt the costumers at all. I am sure you are not hurting your industry more than helping.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
The flaw is you're not anticipating moves by the Tax Dept. to audit these transactions. How would you like it if:
Gold farmers had to register as traders.
Every transaction had to be reciepted.
Individuals had to declare all transactions, providing receipt and citing trader license.
All international transactions faced tariff's and trading regulations.
Having fun yet?
Ok, sometimes I really think some of you people are still have a 2nd grade comprehension, or maybe you are really just in 2nd grade. There is no reason to debate. I'm gonna make this simple for everyone.
1. Sure there are those of you that "have no problem" with RMT. Uh... you are either an RMT buyer, seller, or one of the people that have simply had good fortune in the game. You really need to put yourself in someone elses shoes. Be that person that joined the game 3 months after release and are already behind. Guess what, you also are not a rich person so you dont have extra money on top of the monthly fee to throw away on a game.. maybe you got kids and stuff, or other responsibilites. Maybe you also have a life so you cant play the game but maybe 2-3 hrs a day or so... and the prices have all raised because of RMT. That item you have spent the last week trying to make gold for is now triple what it was.. thats fair? Sure you may think so if you are rich in real life or the game.. but thats because it just dont affect you.
2. It is a game, if you really can't earn it yourself, don't ruin the game for hundreds of others, take one for the team XD. Seriously, it does affect other peoples game play, there is no doubt about it.. there is noway to defend that. It's a simple consept on how it does. With 2ndary companies.. they have people simply go out and farm all day.. it becomes peoples job basically.. which brings more currency into circulation, and everything costs more ect ect. So like I said, if you dont have tons of money in RL to keep up.. its hard, only other way is to have had tons of time to play online, or been really lucky.. thats not how a GAME should work.
All I want to say in ending, if a game isnt supporting RMT please let it alone for the rest of us. I think all MMO's should just make servers that allow it.. and ones that dont to make it simple really.. if you wanna buy then play on those servers.. would be much easier.. and maybe less hassle for everyone. I really don't know how you people really dont care about others enough to ruin a game. Sure it dont seem like it to you because everything is good for you now, but it does.
Haha i missed alot I wanted to say because I had to eat and had some interuptions, but I think it gets the point across.