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I love SOE
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oh so you admit it. well yes, it could be better, and it's imrpoving (IMO) with every GU.
'don't buy soe games' isn't an opinion. It's a clear warning.
regardless of WHO made the mess, SOE cleaned it up. I bet you won't be subbing again though, regardless of it being a potentially great game. You won't give it the chance of progressing.
no i wont because its not worth subscribing to, in my opinion. The population is low for a reason. I gave it a chance a year ago and you only get one chance when developing an mmo.
I understand the word 'ruined' , but I don't think SOE 'ruined' VG, so what are you talking about....
nevermind, i've said all i want to say. Go post some hate or something, I'll carry on playing my game and working for soe (joke), you can carry on playing whatever you enjoy, as long as i don't see any anti soe threads or posts.
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Hello!
Call me simple, but I don't really care a whole lot about a game's publisher, I'm far more interested in the game itself. I play Vanguard and EQII regularly. I think they are both top tier games, with continued development and improvements in both. So Sony is ok in my book.
There is no time limit on SOE being able to do this to another game and as such, there is no time limit that can be imposed on people who feel SOE is a bad company. Additionally, the assumption that everyone knows about SOE's history and has heard all the boring stories is fundamentally flawed. Just this week someone posted in the SWG Vet forum asking "what happened". The assumption being, he did not know the history and was seeking information about it.
As far as having the right but why bother? Why not? Why would you not let people know if you had a bad experience? There are whole publications dedicated to this purpose. One example would be Consumer Reports. If it is acceptable practice to print consumer feedback, why is it not acceptable to post it to an internet forum? If the company still exists and still does not acknowledge their mistake in any meaningful manner, why should people stop being unhappy with them?
Regarding the dying person, perhaps it should be an analogy after all. If SWG would die, the vets would undoubtedly move on. There are a few who have more concerns then just SWG, but I believe SWG vets make for a bulk of the disgruntled consumers and thus the frequency of anti-SOE posts would die down.
Now, one thing that gets me is that you stated you hoped to have mature conversation about this, and yet you opened the thread calling people, who have an issue with SOE, monkeys. You've continued to generalize throughout the thread, although much has been targeted at specific people. Just skimming through all these posts, you seem to be making the same mistakes as SOE. Perhaps we should move on...time for the "I hate Da1e" threads! (rest assured, this is just humor and not personal attack).
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I'm exactly the same. Fair enough if they beat their employees etc, then I may have a problem, but as far as history is concerned i'm not too fussed. I started playing VG but was bombarded with soe hate on this forum, my only annoyance.
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Hello!
Just another SOE hate fest...
I think Da1e ,You was just trying to say that you was sick of allways seeing people saying the same thing every time something is said about SOE. Good or Bad you git the same thing. Look what thay did to SWG and VG. What ever I was in both from beta on and it pissed me off to ,but I got over it. Some people just need something to point to and call it the devil. No mater what you say or point out will change them. Just as I am sure that there is nothing that thay can say to chang the way you see it.
SOE Fan Boy
Alik Steel
I agree with you here!!
I've see nothing wrong with SOE over my years of playing...I still love and play SWG (yeah the NGE seemed like crap at the time, but who cares anyway? It's the same game), I've always had faith in Vanguard, and each year *hands down* SOE gets more and more of a positive progression.
The ONLY thing I will ever complain about is the Customer Service. Anyone who plays/played an SOE game knows what I am talking about. NCsoft is my favorite when it comes to Customer Service.
Other than that, SOE is cool in my books!!
There is no time limit on SOE being able to do this to another game and as such, there is no time limit that can be imposed on people who feel SOE is a bad company. Additionally, the assumption that everyone knows about SOE's history and has heard all the boring stories is fundamentally flawed. Just this week someone posted in the SWG Vet forum asking "what happened". The assumption being, he did not know the history and was seeking information about it.
As far as having the right but why bother? Why not? Why would you not let people know if you had a bad experience? There are whole publications dedicated to this purpose. One example would be Consumer Reports. If it is acceptable practice to print consumer feedback, why is it not acceptable to post it to an internet forum? If the company still exists and still does not acknowledge their mistake in any meaningful manner, why should people stop being unhappy with them?
Regarding the dying person, perhaps it should be an analogy after all. If SWG would die, the vets would undoubtedly move on. There are a few who have more concerns then just SWG, but I believe SWG vets make for a bulk of the disgruntled consumers and thus the frequency of anti-SOE posts would die down.
Now, one thing that gets me is that you stated you hoped to have mature conversation about this, and yet you opened the thread calling people, who have an issue with SOE, monkeys. You've continued to generalize throughout the thread, although much has been targeted at specific people. Just skimming through all these posts, you seem to be making the same mistakes as SOE. Perhaps we should move on...time for the "I hate Da1e" threads! (rest assured, this is just humor and not personal attack).
I agree with you, customer feed back should be made, but on the product that has caused problems, rather than the company. If Nvidia made one bad graphics card that was known to break, people would stay away from that card, not Nvidia. Ipod minis were reknowned for breaking after a year, yet ipods are by far the biggest selling mp3 player today. The fact is it's not about the company's past, it's about what they're doing now, and i believe they are doing good.
sorry i have no more to say, we simply don't have similar views and this will continue to go on . I don't have the energy to type the same thing over and over
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Hello!
I'm exactly the same. Fair enough if they beat their employees etc, then I may have a problem, but as far as history is concerned i'm not too fussed. I started playing VG but was bombarded with soe hate on this forum, my only annoyance.
of course you're not fussed because they didn't screw you. Your opinion might be different if they did.
If you want to see hate go to the age of conan forums, if you haven't noticed mmorpg.com is full of hate and if that upsets you then you can always not read the forum.
Just a thought, but isn't there an official forum where the company can moderate out posts that criticize the company? It sounds like more a matter of picking your audience rather then content. If you had no other option as to where you could discuss VG, then I would say your complaint might have some validity. However, you can easily find a sympathetic ear and gather information about the game on SOE's forums so complaining here is really rather pointless if you are just looking for that "i love soe" ear.
As far as the second quote, that is too bad. I guess the apples and oranges make it hard to find common ground. I mean really? an iPod is the best you can do? A product that can be recalled and replaced at Apple's expense and, otherwise, does not change in form or function?
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
"There is just no time to parade around Sulking, i would rather laugh than cry"
contradicts everything you're saying
sorry but had to quote it !
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Hello!
I was wondering how long it would take you to go for that.
Ultimately, your thread was that people should stop posting and my responses were that they have every right. My conversation since then has been an attempt to explain my point of view and why I feel other vets express themselves the way they do. This is not sulking so much as an attempt at mutual understanding.
The fundamental problem here is that the only thing you've made me understand is that your arguments all boil down to "because I said so" which really does not leave much room for further intelligent discussion on the topic.
Much like the first response though, you only addressed half of it.
"The rich, the poor, the strong, the weak, we share this place together."
everyone here has different beliefs and different opinions and we all have the ability to share them on this forum.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I approach the anti-SOE crowd with a different take.
In many many ways the arguments against SOE are legit. They are a big heartless profit grubbing business. That does motivate them to do 'underhanded' things in an attempt to make money. That does leave some people cold.
However, in the grand scheme of this world, could what SOE be doing concidered true evil? An evil which demands the type of retaliation, rebellion and antiestablishmentarianism that the anti-SOE brigade has staged?
It all boils down to this, SOE makes games. Games! Potentially there is no other product on the market more frivolous and unecessary in our lives. By definition, video games are pure escapism.
The oddest part about the anti-SOE crowd is the cause for which they fight so hard. For their 'video games'. A GAME!
There are people who daily post the evils of SOE. While they are wearing shoes that took a job from an American and put it into the hands of an oppressed 3rd world child. Double whammy, unpatriotic and encourging child labor. At the same time they are sipping on a Soda whose parent company sold fake drugs to pregnant mothers in 3rd world countries and caused irreversable physical birth defects. Not to mention that the computer's desk was built out of metal from a factory that knowingly puts employees at risk, and even figures in death benefits in its early plan because the check to OSHA would be cheaper than upgrading to safe work conditions. I won't even tell you what happened to the cow in the slaughter house before you got that fast food sitting next to the keyboard (and no I'm not vegetarian).
So essentially, what pisses me off about the anti-SOE crowd is that they have worked so hard to end an evil that is soooooo low on the priority list for most conscience consumers.
If everyone who had posted about the evils of SOE had spent that same amount of time trying to protest ACTUAL consumer evils, they could have actually made a difference.
Now the other interesting phenomenon is how these people don't transfer their aggression in an equitable way.
Ford Thunderbird was one of the coolest cars in the 50s and 60s. Ford f'd it all up in the 70s, 80s and 90s. It's back to being cool now, but have you ever seen an 83 T-bird? Good God. Ford took a great product, but because it wasn't selling as well as they hoped, they changed the body style. Sounds like SWG right? Well, how many of you spent 3 decades 'banning' Ford for the design choice they made? To people blog daily about how Ford is the most evil empire of all time for changing their cars on a regular basis? Nope, but SOE doesn't escape with the same fate by a long shot.
Yet every day companies pull the old bait and switch just like happened to SWG. As people are posting and blogging about the evils of SOE, that person is probably surrounded by a miriad of consumer products that had been altered and changed in an attempt to maximize profit. Yet all of these fly right under the radar. The SOE hater would never spend as much time flaming Ford for doing the exact same crap to their cars that SOE does to their games.
It really seems like the longest temper tantrum in the history of the world, because someone took your toy away.
Or another way of putting it: the longest cry over spilled milk in the history of the world. 'Don't cry over spilled milk'. It's an interesting saying. Inherent in the statement is that 'something bad happened', i.e. the milk spilled. Milk is good. It spilling isn't. The consequences are dire - you won't enjoy that tasty beverage. Actual bad stuff came out of spilling the milk - there was a mess to clean up. This is true of SOE and SWG also. The milk was spilled, we didn't get to enjoy the tasty beverage, and no one has still adequatel dealt with the clean up. However - the saying also teaches us to LET IT GO!. Yes it was bad, yes, it made a mess but THERE IS NO USE CRYING OVER IT. When bad things happen, the only useful thing is to be strong and move on.
It is a saying that divides adults and children. It is a phrase that divides the mature from the immature. The next time you want to tirade against SOE, ask yourself, how long should one cry over the spilled milk? At a certain point, the milk goes sour. The mature adult moves on - without crying, knowing that there are other glasses of milk for the future.
I think of the Roman quote (poorly paraphrasing here) "Just give them their bread and circuses and the government can do anything it wants".
You folks are so worried about the loss of your bread and circuses, that the real problems of the world are passing right by you without notice. Just like the machine wants.
If you let a company get away with these actions they will be more inclined to do it again. If you spank a child for being naughty the child will think twice about their actions. my point is, wow changed how mmo's are made, you no longer can ship unfinished games like you could before wow.. because the people have voted with their wallets and said "we want more for our money"..by reminding soe about the swg fiasco they are less inclined to do it again..in the end the customer wins.
that was a well thoughout counterpoint to those who dislike SOE. I will try to keep my response concise as it would be easy to get mired down in specific point by point responses. For what it's worth, I agree with a lot of your opinion, however, that presupposes that other people share your priorities. One quick example is the outsourcing of labor. In a global economy, many might find that to be something that find acceptable.
With the spilled milk analogy, the assumption is that you can pour yourself another glass of the exact same milk and enjoy that. Therefore, while spilling it does have negative implications, they are easily remedied by cleaning up the mess and getting another glass. When applying that logic to SWG in particular, I am sure you can see how it doesn't apply.
Personally, I believe that just becuase there are greater evil's in the world, that does not mean people should not try to tackle the little evils. Just becuase a company has the resources to do underhanded things doesn't mean people should just get over it and move on if they feel sufficiently motivated to protest the issue.
Perhaps the fact it is a game is of significance. Games are escapism you are right there. If we can't be safe from concern in our chosen escape, how much of an escape is it really?
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I agree with this completely. How do you protest the wrongs of SOE? Stop buying their products. It's the crusade that has evolved or de-volved from this simple consumer protest (with the wallet) to an active campaign to ruin this company which baffles me. Bringing the ruination of an entire company usually is only reserved for things a little more important than games.
The thing that amazes me about SOE folks is the level of intensity organized (and unorganized). It is the type of ire usually reserved for holocausts and unjust wars and the like.....but this is over a game.
Seems like misplaced emotion to me. To submit petitions, 'witness' about SOE evils, and actively try to convince other consumers to their point of view. Over what? Just don't buy the freaking game. If people are going to expend the energy to try to bring a company down, how did SOE trump childer labor offenders, terrorist-backed companies, and safety violators? I am just saying in this world, there are bigger fish to fry than SOE.
ok, it doesn't quite work, but think of it as spilling some milk, and there being no more milk left. Instead of 'crying over spilt milk' , you would get a glass of your next favourite drink, say a glass of orange juice for example, which you you may even find just as refreshing as the original milk, ie. you may try another game and actually think it is better, (yes i appreciate that many people think swg was the best game ever etc etc), but the fact is that it is gone, so there's either the option of crying over the milk, or going to get that glass of orange juice and forgetting about the milk, as there are no more cows left i'm afraid!
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Hello!
So far you have attempted to stay withing the realm of plausibility, however, the moment you start bending the rules of reality to meet your needs is the moment you destroy any meaningful discussion.
If I spill the last bit of milk that I have and I really want more milk, I go by the exact type of milk I want. It is that simple. Also, this is not an option with SWG. Instead, I get some sort of Vanilla Soy Milk that, while it has some vague resemblance to cow's milk, I don't really enjoy.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
So far you have attempted to stay withing the realm of plausibility, however, the moment you start bending the rules of reality to meet your needs is the moment you destroy any meaningful discussion.
If I spill the last bit of milk that I have and I really want more milk, I go by the exact type of milk I want. It is that simple. Also, this is not an option with SWG. Instead, I get some sort of Vanilla Soy Milk that, while it has some vague resemblance to cow's milk, I don't really enjoy.
Yes I appreciate swg is gone and is irreplaceable and there'll never be another like it etc etc, but the analogy remains the same. You still have the choice, either drink the Soy milk or orange juice or whatever and try be contempt, or brood over the spilt milk, cursing whoever spilt the milk. (For 2 years)
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Hello!
So you made an excellent point of why this analogy is further flawed. Despite the fact I can go buy more milk, and not addressing rediculous hypotheticals about disappearing cows, there is also a saying about having cake and eating it too. So, the assumption goes that I can drink milk while performing a second activity. Your tactic seems to be to paint SOE detractors as having only one purpose in life and only partaking in one activity which is a flawed portrayal.
Now, failed analogies aside, lets get back to the original point that you believe people should stop posting their distaste for SOE. Again, as I pointed out earlier, their are insulated official forums where you can find a sympathetic ear. Why should this, presumably neutral ground, be subject to the same content? Why should someone who feels sufficiently motivated to post thier opinion hold their tongue? It is up to the reader to choose whether to believe a post or not. The poster is merely putting out information from their point of view and there is no reason that should stop.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
So you made an excellent point of why this analogy is further flawed. Despite the fact I can go buy more milk, and not addressing rediculous hypotheticals about disappearing cows, there is also a saying about having cake and eating it too. So, the assumption goes that I can drink milk while performing a second activity. Your tactic seems to be to paint SOE detractors as having only one purpose in life and only partaking in one activity which is a flawed portrayal.
Now, failed analogies aside, lets get back to the original point that you believe people should stop posting their distaste for SOE. Again, as I pointed out earlier, their are insulated official forums where you can find a sympathetic ear. Why should this, presumably neutral ground, be subject to the same content? Why should someone who feels sufficiently motivated to post thier opinion hold their tongue? It is up to the reader to choose whether to believe a post or not. The poster is merely putting out information from their point of view and there is no reason that should stop.
I'm pretty sure you've completely missed the point of an analogy. It's not a true story, it's meant to make a point. You aren't meant to pick flaws in it.
no, i completely agree, if people dislike the game, this is where they should post their dislike for it, or bad / good gaming experiences, things they enjoyed and whether they'd recommend it etc etc. I don't mind if people have a reason for it. At very least they should say why they hate it, and as long as its justified I can see their argument.
What I don't like to see, the whole reason I made this thread, is people saying things like
'urgh, stay away from this game, it's just another SOE warped game, nothing like the original VG, they'll do another swg mistake'
when have they tried VG? No. They are assuming because it is SOE that they don't want to play it, and they try make others believe it is bad as well, although they have no evidence or justified reason for doing so. It's like me not liking the ford car that was used in a previous post, which was changed to suit mass market, then never driving another ford and 2 years later telling people not to buy any ford cars, simply because they messed up one car. Madness.
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Hello!
Common ground!
Now where we differ, regarding posting about SOE versus posting about the games, I see validity in someone stating info about the company behind the game as that might be of interest to someone considering a game. As I stated previously agreeing that games are an escapist activity, I would like to know if I will have reason to be concerned while seeking that escape. So personally, I would like to here about SOE business practices as I would like to hear about Funcom, Cryptic, Blizzard, etc etc.
It is just a difference of opinion as to what's an important factor in your decision making process. Now, since business practices aren't a high concern for you, that doesn't mean people should not post this type of information. It just means that information won't be useful to you.
Now, if you really want to fight the SOE negativity, go into those threads and correct those people with factual information. That will go much further then complaining about the type of post in general. Additionally, and this is becoming a recurring theme, there are official forums if all you want is posts about the game that do not include complaints about SOE.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Well yes, information about the developer may be important for some, so there should be a FACTUAL page / sticky or something, regarding the history of the games they have been a part of.
But that said, and although I can see your point in people wanting to have info in the developers, people that have hate towards SOE don't give information, they give biased opinions that will just confuse new buyers. If I came onto the VG forum and saw 2/3 SOE related posts (which isn't that uncommon) and took them on face value, I'd have left VG running. Instead I played the game after looking on the website, reading a few reviews, and heard of improvements. I see no validity in the anti SOE posts about VG, which is my prime annoyance.
I'm only one person, I neither have the time nor the patience to correct every single narrow minded person on these forums, and on top of that I don't know the facts, but I don't need to. Having played 2 SOE games, I don't need to know the past SWG incidents, to me they are irrelevant and should be forgotten or at least accepted as a loss so people can move on. The fact that I've enjoyed the SOE games is proof enough for me that SOE aren't as bad as posts say, (yeah i've done a fair bit of post reading, most of it's boring and biased) and they are improving an already great game.
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Hello!
Look what I started!
I think the real question is:
We all know you shouldn't *cry* over spilled milk, but how long can we debate an anology over spilled milk?
The first point can just as easily be turned back on the SOE fans. They give biased information merely to confuse perspective buyers. See how easy it is t omake baseless statements?
On the second point, you don't have the time to "correct" everyone and yet you've managed to respond to every rebuttal posted in this thread from multiple people. Maybe you just aren't managing the time you do hav every well.
And finally, the rest, puts it all in perspective. For you, there are a number of factors that don't matter. For others, they might. Therefore, demanding that people stop posting certain types of information or opinions is extremely narrow minded, a description you use for SOE "haters" btw, and shows that you hav eyour own bias in place that readers fo your posts should be worried about.
I suppose, one important thing to realize is, when you point your finger, you have four others pointing back at you.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence