How many ways are there to make a crafting system work? From the games I've played there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of variation... you collect resources and recepies (or get new recepies for free as you skill up), you convert resources into items as outlined by the recepies, the better your skill, the better the items you create... That's about it, isn't it? How much footage of that do you really need to see?
The only real differences I've heard them talk about in this game are a few new methods of collecting resources (build a farm, mine, or other gathering facility), making everything craftable, and seperating the enchantment process from the building process. Even those things are't really unique to this game, just more rare than the standard crafting system. My guess is they didn't feel a need to expound on it for whole minutes because it's pretty standard fare in most mmo's. It probably works, for the most part, the same way as every other game. The features that were the most challenging and helped the game stand out from its peers the most got the most screentime (Probably because they needed the most testing). It's not like they didn't use any of the crafting tests they captured on video... but I'm sure the person putting the clips together cut as many of the dull or redundant parts out as he could, and honestly those are the parts that have tons of interface menus and no action (mostly crafting).
The big questions to me are whether crafting and resource collecting will be grind, and how many substantively different activities are there. If, as the video suggests, crafting is just an after thought or necissity, then the game will fail.
Frankly, just judging from the video, it's all pretty standard fair. Melee combat rings a bell. Seems like I seen a game or two with magic and ranged combat. I think I've seen at least one game with mounts. I've even seen games where you can PvP, PvE, RvR, heal others, make buildings, sail ships, shoot from/at ships, board ships, fish, bang on anvils, etc., etc.
I've seen games with resource gathering, questing, and crafting. Since we know that it has the same old leveling, grinding, PvP, sailing, etc.... Why's it too much to ask if they have the same old resource gathering, crafting and questing?
To directly answer your question, there are as many ways as the imagination can allow.
Person 1: "Lol, that trailor is epic lame, the gfx are so clunky. Vaporware ftl" Person 2: "Pfft, carebear, graphics arn't everything, us hardcore PvPers are about gameplay"
This is the basic content of EVERY DF post in existence. So let me ask you this, where is the gameplay?
I don't see any besides a huge wall of text telling us how epic all these features and systems are, but where is the proof? You keep justifying the joke of a trailor as "Gameplay > Graphics" yet Darkfall has NEITHER. Where are some pics of the UI? An actual fight that isn't poorly made cinimiatics? I want DF to work as much as the next guy, but you guys are being overconfident and almost naive. This game has yet to present anything.
I thought you were on to something there until the part in red. It made me cry.
I posted in a thread here some time ago pics with every piece of the UI. And i guess you kinda missed the 17 minutes of fighting in the newest video.
"The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands, To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming! On we sweep with threshing oar, our only goal will be the western shore."
How many ways are there to make a crafting system work? From the games I've played there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of variation... you collect resources and recepies (or get new recepies for free as you skill up), you convert resources into items as outlined by the recepies, the better your skill, the better the items you create... That's about it, isn't it? How much footage of that do you really need to see?
The only real differences I've heard them talk about in this game are a few new methods of collecting resources (build a farm, mine, or other gathering facility), making everything craftable, and seperating the enchantment process from the building process. Even those things are't really unique to this game, just more rare than the standard crafting system. My guess is they didn't feel a need to expound on it for whole minutes because it's pretty standard fare in most mmo's. It probably works, for the most part, the same way as every other game. The features that were the most challenging and helped the game stand out from its peers the most got the most screentime (Probably because they needed the most testing). It's not like they didn't use any of the crafting tests they captured on video... but I'm sure the person putting the clips together cut as many of the dull or redundant parts out as he could, and honestly those are the parts that have tons of interface menus and no action (mostly crafting).
The big questions to me are whether crafting and resource collecting will be grind, and how many substantively different activities are there. If, as the video suggests, crafting is just an after thought or necissity, then the game will fail.
Frankly, just judging from the video, it's all pretty standard fair. Melee combat rings a bell. Seems like I seen a game or two with magic and ranged combat. I think I've seen at least one game with mounts. I've even seen games where you can PvP, PvE, RvR, heal others, make buildings, sail ships, shoot from/at ships, board ships, fish, bang on anvils, etc., etc.
I've seen games with resource gathering, questing, and crafting. Since we know that it has the same old leveling, grinding, PvP, sailing, etc.... Why's it too much to ask if they have the same old resource gathering, crafting and questing?
To directly answer your question, there are as many ways as the imagination can allow.
Well, I can understand you wanting it to be good... I suppose it'll be a grind in that you have to use a skill to get better at it... It sounds a lot like the crafting system in UO with a few minor modifications, and that worked just fine for me. Of course, I've never been much of a crafter.
From what the Devs have said, their crafting system is robust, but fairly standard for an MMO. They've said that it's fairly similar to other systems but apparently all (or at least most) of the high end items can be made by players.
The video did spend a few seconds on crafting, just to illustrate that there was a crafting system. From the video I expect it to be similar to all the other crafting systems out there, and that's about good enough for me.
Since the world has player housing and player cities, I imagine it'll have to have crafting for buildings and furniture. If everything is really craftable then they'll have crafting skills for siege weaponry, mounts and mount related gear, ships, clothing and armor, and weapons. I've never played an MMO without potions, bags, pouches, & containers so those will probably be craftable too. Since fishing is in the video, it's also likely that they have crafting for food. Of course, they'll also have to have resource gathering skills for all the materials you need to make these things... farming, mining, skinning, and fishing, for example.
Yeah it is off topic but ah well..... Yeah actually I do agree with what you are saying there. I dont just want to be able to kill everyone I see but I DO want to be able to choose. If for example I am a poncy nature-hugging elf and I met a gnarly old goblin who was hunting bears near my homeland then I would like to be able to kill the f**ker rather than have the game tell me that I cant because the player might get upset. It cant be that hard to implement a decent PvP system into a game that allows this to happen "within the boundaries of the game" can it? You say that the concept of a game being either PvP or solo is flawed and yet this is pretty much the way games ARE being made! They all seem to be aimed at the single player side of things which is why the PvP aspect never really works well. I can understand why I suppose as it is easier to make a single player game and its what developers are used to. Its just odd though that mmos generally lack the complexity of a single player and yet on top of that you cant interact with the other players properly either! I play the Battlefield games too and they are fantastic. Yes they do allow bots in the game which is PvE content but they DONT restrict the players in any way. The game doesnt say "You can kill the bots but you cant kill the players because you will hurt their feelings". As a result the BF games provide a pretty decent and varied game experience that can be pretty intense and exciting because it is the players that are deciding what happens in the game rather than the computer. This is not the case with mmos. I think maybe mmos need to start either (a) ditching the tired old concept of levels (b) hiding the information from the view of other players so they dont know what they are fighting against (c) introducing clever systems that forced the roleplaying aspect back into roleplaying games and penalising people who ignore these systems or (d) introducing more direct skill based gameplay rather than pure number crunching.
Freedom to do (or kill) whatever you want is a major problem with MMO's. I believe that is DFO's greatest promise, with great PvP being a side effect of that. Which is why I'm highly concerned about the lack of "solo" content in the video. If crafting sucks, that means I have the choice of PvP or... PvP (or maybe, combat or... combat). The combat engine or AI is independent of that freedom, to some extent. You could have "free" point-and-click PvP in a game like RuneScape. For being able to choose where to go and what to kill (like in Battlefield), there are MMO's that offer that, tho they are dedicated "PvP servers".
The problem, again, is balance. You like PvP. I like PvE (aka "solo"). I want the option to gather and craft how and when I choose, without having to sneak everywhere and/or constantly die. You want the option to gank me. (You probably also want the option to gank me without being constantly ganked yourself.) The two are not incompatible. Most games balance it by limiting freedom (PvP zones, RvR only, partial or even no PvP loot, etc.) But, it can be balanced by giving me, the crafter, a sporting chance to, at least, escape... or by having anti-pking skills (i.e. hiding)... or having more space per population... or any number of other possibilites, that protect my choice to skill and your choice to PvP.
Game designers tendancy to limit freeedom to fix issues permeates the industry. They target segments of players. "Hard core" gamers, or "casual" gamers.... "solo" versus grouping.... grouping versus clans.... combat versus skilling.... quests versus.. uh.. no quests.... long term players versus noobs.... roleplaying versus non-roleplaying...
Something in the game isn't tweaked quite right, like PvPers are making mince-meat out of skillers, and they say, "limit PvP". Instead they should say "give crafters a better chance". "Carebearing" sucks when done wrong, but, if something isn't balanced right (and is fixed well), carebearing can also be a good thing.
Your proposed solutions, though certainly valid, are simply surface attributes of games. The difference between Battlefield and Unreal Tourny. If MMO designers start asking "how does this limit our players?" (and equate that to "how does this limit our demographic?") on each and every feature and rule, then the rest is just fine tuning, or personal taste.
You mis-judge me. I dont favour PvP over PvE content at all. I would rather like to see a good mix of the two. I certainly have no interest in "ganking" anyone either as that implies that I would play a game purely to get a kick out of killing other players. The reason I would like PvP to be implemented into a game is for realism and immersion purposes. Yeah sure you might get jumped by anyone anywhere at any time but in a vastly uncivilised version of real life then wouldnt that be the case anyway? Of course we're not talking about real life here as its a game.......so it could easily have harsh penalties and rewards built in for various actions to encourage and almost enforce decent behaviour amonst players (eg criminal status for killing people needlessly, good relations with other players etc).
As a crafter you might want to go out into the wilds and gather some resources. But what about bandits and outlaws (nasty minded players) who roam the land looking for people to murder and rob? Well hire the protection of some other players......mercenaries or adventurers who could use the coin. Its an online game afterall. Effectively then it is you who is giving the quest to the players rather than it being some dumb npc. Of course maybe you might want to travel alone perhaps? Well in that case make sure you are prepared. Maybe you are skilled at hiding in the wilds? Perhaps you have the means to temporarily stun or blind your potential assailants and make a quick get away? Maybe you are a good runner? You might find it better to travel at night? Either way there should be some element of risk because otherwise whats the point? If you log into an online game populated with other players then you shouldnt really expect to be totally left alone should you.
But I do understand what you mean. If someone wants to "gank" someone else then how do you stop them? Well that comes down to the game design really doesnt it. In a game where you cannot tell how powerful someone is (no level displayed over their head for example) then it can become quite risky for the would-be ganker if there is the chance that he might get defeated and looted himself. I think there are plenty of ways to make PvP work in a game. Hopefully Darkfall will manage to pull it off and if it doesnt then hopefully future games will learn from any mistakes it might make.
Comments
The big questions to me are whether crafting and resource collecting will be grind, and how many substantively different activities are there. If, as the video suggests, crafting is just an after thought or necissity, then the game will fail.
Frankly, just judging from the video, it's all pretty standard fair. Melee combat rings a bell. Seems like I seen a game or two with magic and ranged combat. I think I've seen at least one game with mounts. I've even seen games where you can PvP, PvE, RvR, heal others, make buildings, sail ships, shoot from/at ships, board ships, fish, bang on anvils, etc., etc.
I've seen games with resource gathering, questing, and crafting. Since we know that it has the same old leveling, grinding, PvP, sailing, etc.... Why's it too much to ask if they have the same old resource gathering, crafting and questing?
To directly answer your question, there are as many ways as the imagination can allow.
I thought you were on to something there until the part in red. It made me cry.
I posted in a thread here some time ago pics with every piece of the UI. And i guess you kinda missed the 17 minutes of fighting in the newest video.
To fight the horde, singing and crying: Valhalla, I am coming!
On we sweep with threshing oar, our only goal will be the western shore."
The big questions to me are whether crafting and resource collecting will be grind, and how many substantively different activities are there. If, as the video suggests, crafting is just an after thought or necissity, then the game will fail.
Frankly, just judging from the video, it's all pretty standard fair. Melee combat rings a bell. Seems like I seen a game or two with magic and ranged combat. I think I've seen at least one game with mounts. I've even seen games where you can PvP, PvE, RvR, heal others, make buildings, sail ships, shoot from/at ships, board ships, fish, bang on anvils, etc., etc.
I've seen games with resource gathering, questing, and crafting. Since we know that it has the same old leveling, grinding, PvP, sailing, etc.... Why's it too much to ask if they have the same old resource gathering, crafting and questing?
To directly answer your question, there are as many ways as the imagination can allow.
Well, I can understand you wanting it to be good... I suppose it'll be a grind in that you have to use a skill to get better at it... It sounds a lot like the crafting system in UO with a few minor modifications, and that worked just fine for me. Of course, I've never been much of a crafter.
From what the Devs have said, their crafting system is robust, but fairly standard for an MMO. They've said that it's fairly similar to other systems but apparently all (or at least most) of the high end items can be made by players.
The video did spend a few seconds on crafting, just to illustrate that there was a crafting system. From the video I expect it to be similar to all the other crafting systems out there, and that's about good enough for me.
Since the world has player housing and player cities, I imagine it'll have to have crafting for buildings and furniture. If everything is really craftable then they'll have crafting skills for siege weaponry, mounts and mount related gear, ships, clothing and armor, and weapons. I've never played an MMO without potions, bags, pouches, & containers so those will probably be craftable too. Since fishing is in the video, it's also likely that they have crafting for food. Of course, they'll also have to have resource gathering skills for all the materials you need to make these things... farming, mining, skinning, and fishing, for example.
Freedom to do (or kill) whatever you want is a major problem with MMO's. I believe that is DFO's greatest promise, with great PvP being a side effect of that. Which is why I'm highly concerned about the lack of "solo" content in the video. If crafting sucks, that means I have the choice of PvP or... PvP (or maybe, combat or... combat). The combat engine or AI is independent of that freedom, to some extent. You could have "free" point-and-click PvP in a game like RuneScape. For being able to choose where to go and what to kill (like in Battlefield), there are MMO's that offer that, tho they are dedicated "PvP servers".
The problem, again, is balance. You like PvP. I like PvE (aka "solo"). I want the option to gather and craft how and when I choose, without having to sneak everywhere and/or constantly die. You want the option to gank me. (You probably also want the option to gank me without being constantly ganked yourself.) The two are not incompatible. Most games balance it by limiting freedom (PvP zones, RvR only, partial or even no PvP loot, etc.) But, it can be balanced by giving me, the crafter, a sporting chance to, at least, escape... or by having anti-pking skills (i.e. hiding)... or having more space per population... or any number of other possibilites, that protect my choice to skill and your choice to PvP.
Game designers tendancy to limit freeedom to fix issues permeates the industry. They target segments of players. "Hard core" gamers, or "casual" gamers.... "solo" versus grouping.... grouping versus clans.... combat versus skilling.... quests versus.. uh.. no quests.... long term players versus noobs.... roleplaying versus non-roleplaying...
Something in the game isn't tweaked quite right, like PvPers are making mince-meat out of skillers, and they say, "limit PvP". Instead they should say "give crafters a better chance". "Carebearing" sucks when done wrong, but, if something isn't balanced right (and is fixed well), carebearing can also be a good thing.
Your proposed solutions, though certainly valid, are simply surface attributes of games. The difference between Battlefield and Unreal Tourny. If MMO designers start asking "how does this limit our players?" (and equate that to "how does this limit our demographic?") on each and every feature and rule, then the rest is just fine tuning, or personal taste.
You mis-judge me. I dont favour PvP over PvE content at all. I would rather like to see a good mix of the two. I certainly have no interest in "ganking" anyone either as that implies that I would play a game purely to get a kick out of killing other players. The reason I would like PvP to be implemented into a game is for realism and immersion purposes. Yeah sure you might get jumped by anyone anywhere at any time but in a vastly uncivilised version of real life then wouldnt that be the case anyway? Of course we're not talking about real life here as its a game.......so it could easily have harsh penalties and rewards built in for various actions to encourage and almost enforce decent behaviour amonst players (eg criminal status for killing people needlessly, good relations with other players etc).
As a crafter you might want to go out into the wilds and gather some resources. But what about bandits and outlaws (nasty minded players) who roam the land looking for people to murder and rob? Well hire the protection of some other players......mercenaries or adventurers who could use the coin. Its an online game afterall. Effectively then it is you who is giving the quest to the players rather than it being some dumb npc. Of course maybe you might want to travel alone perhaps? Well in that case make sure you are prepared. Maybe you are skilled at hiding in the wilds? Perhaps you have the means to temporarily stun or blind your potential assailants and make a quick get away? Maybe you are a good runner? You might find it better to travel at night? Either way there should be some element of risk because otherwise whats the point? If you log into an online game populated with other players then you shouldnt really expect to be totally left alone should you.
But I do understand what you mean. If someone wants to "gank" someone else then how do you stop them? Well that comes down to the game design really doesnt it. In a game where you cannot tell how powerful someone is (no level displayed over their head for example) then it can become quite risky for the would-be ganker if there is the chance that he might get defeated and looted himself. I think there are plenty of ways to make PvP work in a game. Hopefully Darkfall will manage to pull it off and if it doesnt then hopefully future games will learn from any mistakes it might make.