With respect Blurr, your post makes me wonder how familiar you are with Warhammer40k lore.
The Eldar have more than once allied with the Imperium when facing a worse threat (Tyranids, Necrons, etc)
The Eldar have more than once used the Orks as pawns in their plots
As have the Dark Eldar.
The Tau either co-opt or destroy. They don't really ally often. Although in the name of the Greater Good they might consider it.
The Dark Eldar became so because of their races' misuse of the Warp and the machiinations of Slaneesh, one of the Chaos Gods. It's possible this could drive them along the saide of the Chaos Marines.
Lore-wise the only true answer if each race be its own faction, but this would NEVER work in an MMO because of player population balance issues. So we're going to be stuck with 2-3 factions. I'd rather 3; it seems to balance better than 2.
PvP will be hard to balance to me a huge issue is that side are not black and white in Warhammer universe. Imps fight imps, orks fight other orks, Chaos fights etc. I am not going to even pretend I know how to balance that but something open where the person you are working with today may very well be the one you are fighting tomorrow needs to be in place.
I would also love to see the Tau conveniently left out as I have never cared for it or even seen why it was necessary to add them as they are. I suspect the fear of all the rats in space jokes is why we got Tau instead of skaven in 40k.
Tthe Necron at least fill the niche left open by there being no undead in 40k but do occur in fantasy.
Options I want options on appearance such as what chapter what hive what god what world etc.
I read a post on page 2 that gave me an idea and that could potentially be realistic for W40k. W40K is strongly based on squads. If you have each player be a member of a squad, then you force group play and pugging, which immediately shots down several other types of gamers and it fails. If you have people running on their own, it's really won't feel like W40K, even at war, it will just be Sci-fi mmo with W40K theme. A player squad system though, would work, and would work WITH vehicles in mind. Example: You are player X of the Space Marine race. You start as a young squad leader of a scout squad. Scout squad gives you a maximum of 3 other npc team members. You can have 2 type of progression system. One would be purely levels with allocated stats into types. If you put points into Marine tree, then you unlock better gear for your npc squad when you are a marine squad. If you put points into the vehicle tree, then it unlocks more vehicle you can drive (meaning you don't have active squad members, they are inside the vehicle with you). This would also balance out player vs vehicle combat. Let's say you have an Ork Shoota player, who has several npcs under his command. He could go full anti-vehicle customization on his npcs, and gear himself into Anti-player gear. Same goes for vehicle customization, if a Dreadnaught is geared for anti-vehicle/building and faces an anti-vehicle squad, he's pretty much fucked if he's alone. The second one would be skill based and allow way more character reclassing. You could put a space marine squad together and get better as a marine and gain more skill points. You could choose the play a driver the next day and start at 0 point into driving. Could have multiple skills for driver that are unlocked as you gain more points into basic driving. Maybe one for each vehicle even. Example: Driving x/100 -Dreadnought x/100 (Unlocked at 30 driving) -Rhino/Razorback x/100 (unlocked at 15) -Predator x/100(unlocked at 60 in driving) -Land Speeder x/100 (unlocked at 1 in driving) -etc.. Driving Weaponry x100 -Anti-Infantry weapon x/100 -Anti-Heavy infantry weapon x/100 -Anti-Vehicle weapon x/100 -Anti-Air wepaon x/100 That would allow for plenty of customization and maximum player choice. As for pure infantry classes, you could unlock powerful hybrids. Let's say you want a Grey Knight squad, you'd need 100/100 in Infantry Squad, 60/100 in Raptor Squads, 60/100 in Space Marine squads and 30/100 in Terminator Squads. A bit like FFXI class system if you wish.
MUST NOT HAVE TYRANID AS PLAYABLE FACTION. There's no story there, there's nothing in the fluff to suggest a Tyranid could have independant thought. All Tyranid do is eat. You know what... I take that back, Tyranid CAN be a playable race, but only for Chinese IP's in western servers. Bots have about the correct mindset to play a Tyranid correctly.
Make Nids an NPC to kill. Put them on floating space hulks, have them "invade" populated planets, do whatever you want so long as they are NOT made a playable race. (I play Tyranid in 40k.)
the Marines would be the top level of combat but not without their weaknesses
I mean most of the space marines lumber around the battlefield shooting everything in sight with chain bolters or rocket around with heavy duty rocket packs. Then the scouts snipe from long range.
All three would be vulnerable to attacks the Chain bolter SMs would only be able to fire in one general direction So a CSM could jump them from behind or any of the other races.
Unfortunately there ARE indeed healers in WH40k on the Imperium side, Priests for IG and Apothecaries for SM then there's the SoB who just simply regen depending on how high their faith is.
And for the whole Tank, DPS, Healer, etc etc that will exist too unfortunately but probably more likely in a hybrid sense as in the WH40k Universe there's not a TRUE Archetype to anything.
ASMs may have chain swords but they also have bolters SMs can get up close and personal even though they have bolters and heavy chain bolters.
Basically the BEST Way to see what WH40k MMO MIGHT be like is to play DoW2 as unlike DOW the squads are in 3s and can level up gaining new skills every so often.
SMs would be the Tanks they can take a licking and keep on kicking, They're this way in the fluff and I sure hope they're this way in game but as in all MMOs just because you have HIGH HP doesn't necessarily indicate you have superior armor and arnaments.
IG relied on Strength in Numbers but I think in the MMO they'd be more tactics bound and agile since they're not confined by Super Armor. Plus they have a variety of weapons and ranges to use.
The Eldar on both sides have archetypes to tackle any challenge and they'd be the ones to have the full stealth classes.
Orks well we know how they operate and they'd be similar to WAR's Orks but a bit more beefy and armed to the teeth with all manner of shootas 'nades and burnas plus being what they are have a seriously high Regen rate.
Chaos would be like the Space Marines in implementation but they'd have more diverse paths to follow, Should they keep their armor like their SM Bretheren or Should they gain a deeper insight into the power of chaos and become daemonic.
3 factions wouldn't work imho it's a bit too calculative
4 Factions would probably work better
Imperium/ Eldar (Though they'd be neutral towards one another)
Tau as another
Orks
Chaos/Dark Eldar (May the best malevolence win)
Necrons, Tyranids, and any other Hive Mind entity would best serve as NPCs
In my book WH40K needs to be a fun, full featured virtual world and not reduced simply to its combat elements. We can discuss the particulars later.
Can you define "full-featured" virtual world? Your definition and mine might differ.
Prax
Sandbox design, (but can have quests as well, as long as they are more story like rather than kill 5 boars), full featured crafting system that is relevant in the game world, some form of bases/guild halls, deep faction based combat system (at least 3), large expansive world/universe to explore, preferably based on skills, (but I can deal with classes), no levels, (I hate levels anymore, especially in PVP games), player created and controlled world objectives (that are battled for and worth fighting for) and enough content to keep me playing.
Example of how not to make it : STO
Example of how to do it right: EVE
Yeah, I want it to be an old school MMO, so "encouraged grouping" is also fine by me.
Yes, this is what I had in mind too as a good starting point for this game. We'll see soon enough where they are starting. I can tell you this. Gone are my days of getting that "first impression" and if not satisfied on the direction I continue to hope that they will build in some of the things I like. If the information released here in a few weeks isn't 98-100% of what I want to hear, I'm not buying it.
I bought STO b/c of my friends and only because of them. Less than a month into I had completed all missions and the"content update" they promised basically boils down to one extra main quest that is repeatable. That reads to me I will have completed it in the first few days (depending on how long it takes them to get it running right) and then I'm back to grinding borg or grinding that mission. Sorry, no thanks. I don't like that nor do I fancy rolling alts to do the same content I've already done again.
Good God we need more sandbox games where the players are given the tools to make content and there is no waiting until the devs put new scripted content in.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Races to start : Space Marines, Ork, Chaos. These 3 can fight each other very happily. Minimum 3 factions.
Expansion stuff : Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, vehicles, space combat, crafting.
Gameplay : Adult themed just like the IP, it needs violence, bloodshed and plenty of it. Gameplay similar to Darkfall would be cool, so melee is in 3rd person, ranged is in FPS. It works really well and can translate easily to a WH40k game. Skill based progression preferred to level based, but ok either way.
Optional PvP, can skill up from PvE or PvP equally. End game MUST be PvP orientated with stronghold/planetary takeovers that give faction bonuses when acheived - kick the enemy off a contested planet and you gain the bonuses sort of thing.
Sure have some tough epic PvE encounters as well, (this is where Tyranids and Necros can play soem good parts) but players need to be somewhat forced to group up from at least mid level to get the PvE done to encourage teamplay/faction loyalty/friends and this will pretty much then auto follow into the end game PvP.
PvP however much I personally like full loot options and fairly hard PvP will not work. It needs to be quick respawns and back into battle with some minor penalties and fairly short runs back into the action but nothing too major. The action needs to be constant fighting. This was the thing that DAoC done well.
These days it is too much instance in most MMO, too easy and too single player. This is not what makes MMO work, and last for years. It needs to get back to more old school MMO roots. Todays MMO's never last long because they always cater to the ezmode crowd, then fail. Latest example is/will be STO. The only exception EVER has been WoW. Avoid making a WoW clone with a 40k skin at ALL costs. WoW is WoW. Let it be. Do something different from a 2nd rate WoW clone!
WAR showed how NOT to do it, by forgetting everything that was epic about DAoC, trying to aim for a WoW crowd and failing utterly to deliver, despite some decent ideas.
In summary I would like to see an adult/violent world, and based off the good bits of past great MMO like DAoC and Darkfall, with the intuitve interfaces of a game like WoW, customisation options of a game such as EvE for wep loadouts and system boosts/configurations, guild/alliance options well executed, PvE AI from Darkfall (which is brilliantly done right from the start)EXCELLENT chat options, leaning to the more difficult side of things instead of easier as far as progression is concerned, DAoC type Battlegrounds as you level up before progressing to end game PvP, NO or VERY LITTLE in the way of stuns/holds, Zero tolerance of cheats and gold spammers right from day 1, and actually enforce it vigourously with proper bans not the half assed attempts mostly done these days, regular communication and updates, anticipate a huge initial audience and get the server hardware to cope with it, a lengthy closed/open beta period to get things more right than wrong, and cover it all with Warhammer 40k goodness, lore and atmosphere. No in game pay as you go crappy shops, just get a proper expansion out, yeah we will happily pay for them if they are good, and screw the XBox generation don't dumb things down for them in an MMO, it ruins them totally and they never stick around for long anyway. PC MMO designed from the ground up.
Do most of that and I will happily pay double the normal monthly MMO fee, I would pay £15-£20 british sterling a month for a decent modern MMO coated in 40k goodness so would most others I know if it is any good. We WANT and NEED a decent Warhammer MMO for the 21st centuary that re-captures the things that old school MMO's kept you playing them for years -good gameplay and great community.
The more I read up, the more it looks like people want what old EQ did, actually use your skills to level em up, want to cast a spell, do it a lot in order for it to work. Want death to mean something, make it to when you die you can actually lose a level. Sure don't need to go to the extremes of EQ, but hell im starting to miss it somewhat from what I am reading from what people want in MMO's hehe.
It's going to be interesting to see how they do it, I won't condemn them if they only do 2 factions, but im sure most of us know that 3 would be better. But if they do do it that way, we won't see much at launch I'm afraid, but as long as they keep the updates coming that puts more content in the game without having to wait for an expac they can make it work. And of course they can't do what Mythic did, promise this this and this, and then 1 week to release, cut it /sigh
I don't get something, if in the lore (and I know nothing of it) the races fight against anyone including themselves, and ally at times with anyone including themselves, then what's the problem? Can't they just create like 3 or 4 factions and then let the players choose which faction they want to belong to? So if you don't like your faction, just jump ship. You'll have several factions, each with all races and classes in them.
Maybe make it so that certain factions won't accept certain races. Like if humans hate chaos, then no chaos will be able to ally himself with humans. Just saying chaos and humans, I don't know how the races work in the actual lore.
I read a post on page 2 that gave me an idea and that could potentially be realistic for W40k. W40K is strongly based on squads. If you have each player be a member of a squad, then you force group play and pugging, which immediately shots down several other types of gamers and it fails. If you have people running on their own, it's really won't feel like W40K, even at war, it will just be Sci-fi mmo with W40K theme. A player squad system though, would work, and would work WITH vehicles in mind. Example: You are player X of the Space Marine race. You start as a young squad leader of a scout squad. Scout squad gives you a maximum of 3 other npc team members. You can have 2 type of progression system. One would be purely levels with allocated stats into types. If you put points into Marine tree, then you unlock better gear for your npc squad when you are a marine squad. If you put points into the vehicle tree, then it unlocks more vehicle you can drive (meaning you don't have active squad members, they are inside the vehicle with you). This would also balance out player vs vehicle combat. Let's say you have an Ork Shoota player, who has several npcs under his command. He could go full anti-vehicle customization on his npcs, and gear himself into Anti-player gear. Same goes for vehicle customization, if a Dreadnaught is geared for anti-vehicle/building and faces an anti-vehicle squad, he's pretty much fucked if he's alone. The second one would be skill based and allow way more character reclassing. You could put a space marine squad together and get better as a marine and gain more skill points. You could choose the play a driver the next day and start at 0 point into driving. Could have multiple skills for driver that are unlocked as you gain more points into basic driving. Maybe one for each vehicle even. Example: Driving x/100 -Dreadnought x/100 (Unlocked at 30 driving) -Rhino/Razorback x/100 (unlocked at 15) -Predator x/100(unlocked at 60 in driving) -Land Speeder x/100 (unlocked at 1 in driving) -etc.. Driving Weaponry x100 -Anti-Infantry weapon x/100 -Anti-Heavy infantry weapon x/100 -Anti-Vehicle weapon x/100 -Anti-Air wepaon x/100 That would allow for plenty of customization and maximum player choice. As for pure infantry classes, you could unlock powerful hybrids. Let's say you want a Grey Knight squad, you'd need 100/100 in Infantry Squad, 60/100 in Raptor Squads, 60/100 in Space Marine squads and 30/100 in Terminator Squads. A bit like FFXI class system if you wish.
Sorry you dont DRIVE a dreadnought if you are one of the elite few that a chapter deems worthy when you are dead or good as they may intern your body in a walking coffin known as a dreadnought. If they allow people to just drive them like cars im out, some lore is just paramount.
Anyone who says a WH40k MMO should not be PvP focused does not understand what is behind the universe.
WH40k is only about conflict. Conflict does not happen between AI controlled mobs, its between players.
You have to understand, a WH40k MMO is built because of the lore behind it. And the lore, like my last post, dictates it to be PvP oriented. Its about the conflict between humanity living in a universe with many alien races trying to exterminate them and others for various reasons. And players are playing humanity and other living beings of the universe so for those sides to have conflict, there MUST be PvP.
PvP has to be the center piece for the game. To do anything else would insantly fail by default.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
Also, since we're on the subject of making wishes, please for the love of god, don't do healbitches in this game. I beg of you. The entire tank/heal/dps thing REALLY got old by now. This whole reliance on healers bullshit that's been going on in these games just has to go.
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Amen to that. I think at the minimum if they do go with heal bots they should be like Global Agenda's Robotics class. Healing is a support thing that is part but only a fraction of what they do. I find that people tend to bring their "A" game more with a robotics as the only healing class because its not an infinite "fix fix fix". All of a sudden, strategy comes to the forefront. Its amazing.
I would add in just one more point that would really help make a Warhammer 40K game memorable.
Allow the players to witness/play a completely new chapter of 40K lore created by Gamesworkshop (so it's official) through the game.
Imagine being able to play through something the Horus conspiracy and seeing how it unfolds as a Space Marine or other 40K warrior.
I think that would make it far more engaging than the never-ending, never-changing setting that Mythic's Warhammer game is forced to maintain because they can't have major changes like permanently removing Karl Franz or the like.
Plus it would let the online players feel more connected to the table-top games knowing they witnessed a new part of the lore and story that has been developing for decades.
I think Warhammer 40k SHOULD be PVE centric, focusing on the tough Space Hulk battles vs tyranids, small scale war action against various factions.
Enable larger 20+ man raids, and 5-6 man content, do away with all this stupid balance for PvP, its not what draws most people.
Warcraft rules cause of its massive PVE, not cause it has some pvp crap in it. Splitting into 3 factions is even worse, diluting the player base and making tons of problems for balance and getting enough people on each side to get players.
In the beginning EVERYONE in warhammer was Chaos, cause they had cooler units, it had NOTHING to do with player balance.
But I guess they are gonna make YET another PvP centric mmo, despite the fact that PvE is what REALLY sells mmo's.
gotta be proffesions. maby like engineer , trap makers?, trap reversal?, weapons and armor makers but not legendary things. Well something like that.
Class system- something were you start of normal and progress and choose a path you want to take. like a branch thing.
----- assault marine?
Normal space marine----- Terminator?
----- Devastator?
------Tactical marine?
No healers.. WE DO NOT NEED HEALERS!!!!! Only TECH REPAIR MEN who are able to fix broken tanks.
PVP- No automatic target. Free for ALL. NO Battlegrounds!!!!!!!! All open World!!! 24 hour all round time like Wow. This will allow Night fights and other elemental terrain to take place on the battlefield. DEEP STRIKING but make it very balanced!!!!! Respawn points are close too cities, towns, Guild space hulks or Npc Space hulks. If the planet is been taken over by the enemy respawn points will be on the Npc or guild space hulks.
Guilds-To Drive a tank or fly an airplane in battle you need to be in the guild and earn a high enough rank with the guild masters permission to be one. Only a certain amount of people in the guild though. Like 4 tank drivers, 4 Air pilots and 3 Transport drivers and guild master is the driver of the guild space hulk. (Each guild)
The trainers will be in the city or in the guild/npc space hulk.
guild master- rules the guild space hulk or puts the guild money where ever they need it like tanks, airplanes, drop pods and etc.
guild space hulks have to be bought at either the city or the npc space hulk. Npc space hulk are the mother of all the armies space fleet.
Pve but has to looks very war like.
Also there should be turrets, anti aircraft weapons, artillery cannons and destroyable buildings.
Sigh, this is all wrong. I think Warhammer 40k SHOULD be PVE centric, focusing on the tough Space Hulk battles vs tyranids, small scale war action against various factions. Enable larger 20+ man raids, and 5-6 man content, do away with all this stupid balance for PvP, its not what draws most people. Warcraft rules cause of its massive PVE, not cause it has some pvp crap in it. Splitting into 3 factions is even worse, diluting the player base and making tons of problems for balance and getting enough people on each side to get players. In the beginning EVERYONE in warhammer was Chaos, cause they had cooler units, it had NOTHING to do with player balance.
But I guess they are gonna make YET another PvP centric mmo, despite the fact that PvE is what REALLY sells mmo's.
Being dogmatic only works if one speaks with some form of authority. Authority coming from knowledge, subject-matter expertise, or position of power (which was first obtained via the others). Digression, digression.
The title of the column was what a 40k MMO would need to get right. The title isn't 'what arbitrary MMO release should aim for in order to sell'. This is an IP with a *huge* pre-existing fanbase. It will sell based off its merits, not off some cookie-cutter formulae approach. The discussions here-in show how passionate, how deep, the 40k universe can be.
What history has proven, WoW included, is that you first start with the fanbase that made the IP popular to begin with. The details of implementation can be hashed out later, but they better not fly in the face of what got you there in the first place.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Sorry to burst some of you guys' bubbles, but Vigil already stated that this will not be a first person shooter/3rd person shooter and is sticking to being an rpg.
I hope the gameplay is more like what it looks like Relic is doing with Warhammer 40k: Space Marine but on a Grander scale.
I personally hope it's an action based MMORPG where you go in blasting your targets and hacking away chainsword/powersword in hand not unlike darksiders: wrath of War (AKA 'The Legend of God of Warhammer 40k'), but more MMO friendly.
We can count on a few things coming from Vigil and Joe Madureira. They are as followed.
Rediculously detailed armor.
One incredibly savage and twisted gameworld. (See Darksiders)
Over-the-top dynamic animations and action.
And here is a quote concerning Character customization.
PCG: What are the player customization options? Can a player design their own Space Marine Chapter or Ork Clan?
JM: We have a very robust system for creating distinctive looking characters - and of course, it wouldn’t be Warhammer 40,000 without tons of stuff hanging off your character, including weapons, scrolls, chains, books, medals, and what have you! I hate to say this without showing images to back it up, but I feel like we are going to have the coolest looking characters of any MMO, ever. Of course that isn’t all that hard to achieve being that everything in Warhammer 40,000 is over-the-top badass! Once we begin releasing images, feel free to call me on that remark.
I just hope they focus on a few things and do them incredibly well. I'm thinking gunfire will play out a lot like Gears of War without having to manually aim, in that you select a target, and dive behind some cover, and when you fire or activate a power, you pop up and start spraying. Hopefully Like an Un-failed Tabula Rasa with a sticky cover system.
I think they can break down the Races into 3 factions.
Imperium - IG, SM, WH/DH
Xeno - Eldar, Tau, Orkz
Chaos - Chaos SM, Daemons, Dark Eldar (or Possibly broken down by which Chaos God)
Alternative Chaos - Nurgle, Slaanesh/Tzeentch, Khorne
Reasoning:
The Eldar are a very crafty and Cunning Race, having the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy. It's speculated and has been hinted that The Tau Ethereals are Eldar creations and are responsible for Tau Technology and how they've advanced so quickly. The Eldar are also the ones who guided the Orkz into the Imperium of man thus causing the Armageddon Scenario. However, if it came to social interaction, there would be very little of it between the 2.
The Imperium is obvious.
Chaos is fairly obvious as well, with the exception that the Dark Eldar will attack and pillage anything
I to am wondering what role the individual player will take. I am thinking they may turn the name guild into chapters or hordes for Orks sake. I am very excited by the development of this game howevere, can't wait to see more details at E3.
I hope imperial guard make the cut.
Making so much noise you dont know when to listen.
Firstly being a Space Marine should be a player aspiration, Imperial Guard should be the closest you get to that at the start of the game. People should defiantly not be able to create there own Space Marine Chapters, unless you want to see “Toilet Seats of the Emperor’s Throne” as a Space Marine guild. Players should be able to form a regiment of the Imperial Guard, a Chapter of Ministorum Battle Brothers, a Cabal of Inquisitors etc.
5 sides would be great, but let’s keep things realistic and stick to 3 sides. There is no need to have Chaos siding with Orcs or Eldar with Tau. Imperial versus only two other sides would be fine.
The OP asked how you grow and mature, you start as a member of a Planetary Defence Force, you graduate to the PvP realms as a Imperial Guardsman, you master the PvP realms to become a Space Marine.
There is huge scope here for a RPG side that is not just Guardsman point and shoot. Under the patronage of a local Inquisitor you could have a great questing RPG MMO. You then graduate to the RvR as a Imperial Guardsman, then on to Space marine.
If they go a more Planentside shooter route quite happy with that too, but make Space Marines something we have to play to achieve, not just handed to us on a plate when we first log in.
The big question here is does the First Person Shooter mentality apply? <snip>
An FPS interface may not keep players involved long enough to put in the hours on an MMO.
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That's so not true. Planetside was a MMOFPS, and it was easy to play for 3-4 hours at a time. The reasons were simple - we were fighting for definite gains for our side ("move the map" was the terms), we were fighting together, and we were fighting continuously to make progress.
It's difficult to log out when you are fully engaged like that. You really WANT to stay in and get that tower back so your entire side has a closer spawn point, or the enemy side doesn't and is forced back to using mobile stations to spawn - which you can blow up- or whatever other fight du jour was on. Base/tower assaults and defenses, bridge battles, field battles between the bases, commando raids to take down gens/spawn tubes, ghost hacks to open up new fronts - the variety of things you did kept the game ever interesting.
If WH40k gives each side simple, clear objectives with simple, clear gains to be had, and allow for variety in how you can achieve them, I predict they will do very well on the FPS side.
If they don't, the only people who will play are the ones whos rewards are gained from their kill counter. These are the same players who endlessly jump ship for the next adrenaline rush, and it's a mistake to try to form a long-term relationship with people with short interest spans.
Maybe they should have a good look how well planetside handled vechicles with multiaple people riding in them. Even tho the game is old, they did have alot of good ideas to handle mech/air wars.
Most of the replies here revolve around combat, PvE or PvP, and that's fine. WAR basically limited itself to combat and for that reason and because the combat was meaningless and unbalanced it failed.
So whatever they do, they need to give ppl alternative gameplay-mechanics when they don't want to fight. Combat is good and everything, but sometimes i just want to chill, do something else while being in my favorite MMO, improve on my char beyond the range of items and armour.
Give me alternatives, give me plenty of meaningful stuff to do and a truly persistent world our actions can shape and modify. Explore the lore beyond just using it as a backdrop for quests.
Ppl still eat, drink, wear clothing, indulge in entertainment. I want dark bars on vast space ships or i want to learn how to make the best neuro-implants there are. Let me distill alcohol and sell it to the latest recruits who want to drown their latest nightmares come true. Let me manufacture battle drugs or soothing drugs, or halucinative drugs. Or better let me be the high-tech cook. Inventing new food surrogates with all sorts of effects. Give me some recipes, make them modular, let me combine them to come up with something new.
The devs need to think of what ppl do in this setting when they don't fight and kill each other. I can play a shooter only for some hours a day, we haven't heard of anyone yet who collapsed from exhaustion because he played too much CS. If a company wants players to stay in their game 24/7, they need to give them more than just combat and combat centric gameplay.
They need to give them more than just a WAR, they need to give them a world.
Comments
With respect Blurr, your post makes me wonder how familiar you are with Warhammer40k lore.
The Eldar have more than once allied with the Imperium when facing a worse threat (Tyranids, Necrons, etc)
The Eldar have more than once used the Orks as pawns in their plots
As have the Dark Eldar.
The Tau either co-opt or destroy. They don't really ally often. Although in the name of the Greater Good they might consider it.
The Dark Eldar became so because of their races' misuse of the Warp and the machiinations of Slaneesh, one of the Chaos Gods. It's possible this could drive them along the saide of the Chaos Marines.
Lore-wise the only true answer if each race be its own faction, but this would NEVER work in an MMO because of player population balance issues. So we're going to be stuck with 2-3 factions. I'd rather 3; it seems to balance better than 2.
PvP will be hard to balance to me a huge issue is that side are not black and white in Warhammer universe. Imps fight imps, orks fight other orks, Chaos fights etc. I am not going to even pretend I know how to balance that but something open where the person you are working with today may very well be the one you are fighting tomorrow needs to be in place.
I would also love to see the Tau conveniently left out as I have never cared for it or even seen why it was necessary to add them as they are. I suspect the fear of all the rats in space jokes is why we got Tau instead of skaven in 40k.
Tthe Necron at least fill the niche left open by there being no undead in 40k but do occur in fantasy.
Options I want options on appearance such as what chapter what hive what god what world etc.
^This^
MUST NOT HAVE TYRANID AS PLAYABLE FACTION. There's no story there, there's nothing in the fluff to suggest a Tyranid could have independant thought. All Tyranid do is eat. You know what... I take that back, Tyranid CAN be a playable race, but only for Chinese IP's in western servers. Bots have about the correct mindset to play a Tyranid correctly.
Make Nids an NPC to kill. Put them on floating space hulks, have them "invade" populated planets, do whatever you want so long as they are NOT made a playable race. (I play Tyranid in 40k.)
Well as far as a PvP (RvR please god) goes
the Marines would be the top level of combat but not without their weaknesses
I mean most of the space marines lumber around the battlefield shooting everything in sight with chain bolters or rocket around with heavy duty rocket packs. Then the scouts snipe from long range.
All three would be vulnerable to attacks the Chain bolter SMs would only be able to fire in one general direction So a CSM could jump them from behind or any of the other races.
Unfortunately there ARE indeed healers in WH40k on the Imperium side, Priests for IG and Apothecaries for SM then there's the SoB who just simply regen depending on how high their faith is.
And for the whole Tank, DPS, Healer, etc etc that will exist too unfortunately but probably more likely in a hybrid sense as in the WH40k Universe there's not a TRUE Archetype to anything.
ASMs may have chain swords but they also have bolters SMs can get up close and personal even though they have bolters and heavy chain bolters.
Basically the BEST Way to see what WH40k MMO MIGHT be like is to play DoW2 as unlike DOW the squads are in 3s and can level up gaining new skills every so often.
SMs would be the Tanks they can take a licking and keep on kicking, They're this way in the fluff and I sure hope they're this way in game but as in all MMOs just because you have HIGH HP doesn't necessarily indicate you have superior armor and arnaments.
IG relied on Strength in Numbers but I think in the MMO they'd be more tactics bound and agile since they're not confined by Super Armor. Plus they have a variety of weapons and ranges to use.
The Eldar on both sides have archetypes to tackle any challenge and they'd be the ones to have the full stealth classes.
Orks well we know how they operate and they'd be similar to WAR's Orks but a bit more beefy and armed to the teeth with all manner of shootas 'nades and burnas plus being what they are have a seriously high Regen rate.
Chaos would be like the Space Marines in implementation but they'd have more diverse paths to follow, Should they keep their armor like their SM Bretheren or Should they gain a deeper insight into the power of chaos and become daemonic.
3 factions wouldn't work imho it's a bit too calculative
4 Factions would probably work better
Imperium/ Eldar (Though they'd be neutral towards one another)
Tau as another
Orks
Chaos/Dark Eldar (May the best malevolence win)
Necrons, Tyranids, and any other Hive Mind entity would best serve as NPCs
Can you define "full-featured" virtual world? Your definition and mine might differ.
Prax
Sandbox design, (but can have quests as well, as long as they are more story like rather than kill 5 boars), full featured crafting system that is relevant in the game world, some form of bases/guild halls, deep faction based combat system (at least 3), large expansive world/universe to explore, preferably based on skills, (but I can deal with classes), no levels, (I hate levels anymore, especially in PVP games), player created and controlled world objectives (that are battled for and worth fighting for) and enough content to keep me playing.
Example of how not to make it : STO
Example of how to do it right: EVE
Yeah, I want it to be an old school MMO, so "encouraged grouping" is also fine by me.
Yes, this is what I had in mind too as a good starting point for this game. We'll see soon enough where they are starting. I can tell you this. Gone are my days of getting that "first impression" and if not satisfied on the direction I continue to hope that they will build in some of the things I like. If the information released here in a few weeks isn't 98-100% of what I want to hear, I'm not buying it.
I bought STO b/c of my friends and only because of them. Less than a month into I had completed all missions and the"content update" they promised basically boils down to one extra main quest that is repeatable. That reads to me I will have completed it in the first few days (depending on how long it takes them to get it running right) and then I'm back to grinding borg or grinding that mission. Sorry, no thanks. I don't like that nor do I fancy rolling alts to do the same content I've already done again.
Good God we need more sandbox games where the players are given the tools to make content and there is no waiting until the devs put new scripted content in.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Races to start : Space Marines, Ork, Chaos. These 3 can fight each other very happily. Minimum 3 factions.
Expansion stuff : Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, vehicles, space combat, crafting.
Gameplay : Adult themed just like the IP, it needs violence, bloodshed and plenty of it. Gameplay similar to Darkfall would be cool, so melee is in 3rd person, ranged is in FPS. It works really well and can translate easily to a WH40k game. Skill based progression preferred to level based, but ok either way.
Optional PvP, can skill up from PvE or PvP equally. End game MUST be PvP orientated with stronghold/planetary takeovers that give faction bonuses when acheived - kick the enemy off a contested planet and you gain the bonuses sort of thing.
Sure have some tough epic PvE encounters as well, (this is where Tyranids and Necros can play soem good parts) but players need to be somewhat forced to group up from at least mid level to get the PvE done to encourage teamplay/faction loyalty/friends and this will pretty much then auto follow into the end game PvP.
PvP however much I personally like full loot options and fairly hard PvP will not work. It needs to be quick respawns and back into battle with some minor penalties and fairly short runs back into the action but nothing too major. The action needs to be constant fighting. This was the thing that DAoC done well.
These days it is too much instance in most MMO, too easy and too single player. This is not what makes MMO work, and last for years. It needs to get back to more old school MMO roots. Todays MMO's never last long because they always cater to the ezmode crowd, then fail. Latest example is/will be STO. The only exception EVER has been WoW. Avoid making a WoW clone with a 40k skin at ALL costs. WoW is WoW. Let it be. Do something different from a 2nd rate WoW clone!
WAR showed how NOT to do it, by forgetting everything that was epic about DAoC, trying to aim for a WoW crowd and failing utterly to deliver, despite some decent ideas.
In summary I would like to see an adult/violent world, and based off the good bits of past great MMO like DAoC and Darkfall, with the intuitve interfaces of a game like WoW, customisation options of a game such as EvE for wep loadouts and system boosts/configurations, guild/alliance options well executed, PvE AI from Darkfall (which is brilliantly done right from the start)EXCELLENT chat options, leaning to the more difficult side of things instead of easier as far as progression is concerned, DAoC type Battlegrounds as you level up before progressing to end game PvP, NO or VERY LITTLE in the way of stuns/holds, Zero tolerance of cheats and gold spammers right from day 1, and actually enforce it vigourously with proper bans not the half assed attempts mostly done these days, regular communication and updates, anticipate a huge initial audience and get the server hardware to cope with it, a lengthy closed/open beta period to get things more right than wrong, and cover it all with Warhammer 40k goodness, lore and atmosphere. No in game pay as you go crappy shops, just get a proper expansion out, yeah we will happily pay for them if they are good, and screw the XBox generation don't dumb things down for them in an MMO, it ruins them totally and they never stick around for long anyway. PC MMO designed from the ground up.
Do most of that and I will happily pay double the normal monthly MMO fee, I would pay £15-£20 british sterling a month for a decent modern MMO coated in 40k goodness so would most others I know if it is any good. We WANT and NEED a decent Warhammer MMO for the 21st centuary that re-captures the things that old school MMO's kept you playing them for years -good gameplay and great community.
The more I read up, the more it looks like people want what old EQ did, actually use your skills to level em up, want to cast a spell, do it a lot in order for it to work. Want death to mean something, make it to when you die you can actually lose a level. Sure don't need to go to the extremes of EQ, but hell im starting to miss it somewhat from what I am reading from what people want in MMO's hehe.
It's going to be interesting to see how they do it, I won't condemn them if they only do 2 factions, but im sure most of us know that 3 would be better. But if they do do it that way, we won't see much at launch I'm afraid, but as long as they keep the updates coming that puts more content in the game without having to wait for an expac they can make it work. And of course they can't do what Mythic did, promise this this and this, and then 1 week to release, cut it /sigh
I don't get something, if in the lore (and I know nothing of it) the races fight against anyone including themselves, and ally at times with anyone including themselves, then what's the problem? Can't they just create like 3 or 4 factions and then let the players choose which faction they want to belong to? So if you don't like your faction, just jump ship. You'll have several factions, each with all races and classes in them.
Maybe make it so that certain factions won't accept certain races. Like if humans hate chaos, then no chaos will be able to ally himself with humans. Just saying chaos and humans, I don't know how the races work in the actual lore.
Sorry you dont DRIVE a dreadnought if you are one of the elite few that a chapter deems worthy when you are dead or good as they may intern your body in a walking coffin known as a dreadnought. If they allow people to just drive them like cars im out, some lore is just paramount.
Anyone who says a WH40k MMO should not be PvP focused does not understand what is behind the universe.
WH40k is only about conflict. Conflict does not happen between AI controlled mobs, its between players.
You have to understand, a WH40k MMO is built because of the lore behind it. And the lore, like my last post, dictates it to be PvP oriented. Its about the conflict between humanity living in a universe with many alien races trying to exterminate them and others for various reasons. And players are playing humanity and other living beings of the universe so for those sides to have conflict, there MUST be PvP.
PvP has to be the center piece for the game. To do anything else would insantly fail by default.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
Also, since we're on the subject of making wishes, please for the love of god, don't do healbitches in this game. I beg of you. The entire tank/heal/dps thing REALLY got old by now. This whole reliance on healers bullshit that's been going on in these games just has to go.
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Amen to that. I think at the minimum if they do go with heal bots they should be like Global Agenda's Robotics class. Healing is a support thing that is part but only a fraction of what they do. I find that people tend to bring their "A" game more with a robotics as the only healing class because its not an infinite "fix fix fix". All of a sudden, strategy comes to the forefront. Its amazing.
I would add in just one more point that would really help make a Warhammer 40K game memorable.
Allow the players to witness/play a completely new chapter of 40K lore created by Gamesworkshop (so it's official) through the game.
Imagine being able to play through something the Horus conspiracy and seeing how it unfolds as a Space Marine or other 40K warrior.
I think that would make it far more engaging than the never-ending, never-changing setting that Mythic's Warhammer game is forced to maintain because they can't have major changes like permanently removing Karl Franz or the like.
Plus it would let the online players feel more connected to the table-top games knowing they witnessed a new part of the lore and story that has been developing for decades.
Sigh, this is all wrong.
I think Warhammer 40k SHOULD be PVE centric, focusing on the tough Space Hulk battles vs tyranids, small scale war action against various factions.
Enable larger 20+ man raids, and 5-6 man content, do away with all this stupid balance for PvP, its not what draws most people.
Warcraft rules cause of its massive PVE, not cause it has some pvp crap in it. Splitting into 3 factions is even worse, diluting the player base and making tons of problems for balance and getting enough people on each side to get players.
In the beginning EVERYONE in warhammer was Chaos, cause they had cooler units, it had NOTHING to do with player balance.
But I guess they are gonna make YET another PvP centric mmo, despite the fact that PvE is what REALLY sells mmo's.
im hoping for is..
races.. Orkz, eldar, imperium, chaos.
gotta be proffesions. maby like engineer , trap makers?, trap reversal?, weapons and armor makers but not legendary things. Well something like that.
Class system- something were you start of normal and progress and choose a path you want to take. like a branch thing.
----- assault marine?
Normal space marine----- Terminator?
----- Devastator?
------Tactical marine?
No healers.. WE DO NOT NEED HEALERS!!!!! Only TECH REPAIR MEN who are able to fix broken tanks.
PVP- No automatic target. Free for ALL. NO Battlegrounds!!!!!!!! All open World!!! 24 hour all round time like Wow. This will allow Night fights and other elemental terrain to take place on the battlefield. DEEP STRIKING but make it very balanced!!!!! Respawn points are close too cities, towns, Guild space hulks or Npc Space hulks. If the planet is been taken over by the enemy respawn points will be on the Npc or guild space hulks.
Guilds-To Drive a tank or fly an airplane in battle you need to be in the guild and earn a high enough rank with the guild masters permission to be one. Only a certain amount of people in the guild though. Like 4 tank drivers, 4 Air pilots and 3 Transport drivers and guild master is the driver of the guild space hulk. (Each guild)
The trainers will be in the city or in the guild/npc space hulk.
guild master- rules the guild space hulk or puts the guild money where ever they need it like tanks, airplanes, drop pods and etc.
guild space hulks have to be bought at either the city or the npc space hulk. Npc space hulk are the mother of all the armies space fleet.
Pve but has to looks very war like.
Also there should be turrets, anti aircraft weapons, artillery cannons and destroyable buildings.
Those are my ideas on the game.
Being dogmatic only works if one speaks with some form of authority. Authority coming from knowledge, subject-matter expertise, or position of power (which was first obtained via the others). Digression, digression.
The title of the column was what a 40k MMO would need to get right. The title isn't 'what arbitrary MMO release should aim for in order to sell'. This is an IP with a *huge* pre-existing fanbase. It will sell based off its merits, not off some cookie-cutter formulae approach. The discussions here-in show how passionate, how deep, the 40k universe can be.
What history has proven, WoW included, is that you first start with the fanbase that made the IP popular to begin with. The details of implementation can be hashed out later, but they better not fly in the face of what got you there in the first place.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Sorry to burst some of you guys' bubbles, but Vigil already stated that this will not be a first person shooter/3rd person shooter and is sticking to being an rpg.
I hope the gameplay is more like what it looks like Relic is doing with Warhammer 40k: Space Marine but on a Grander scale.
I personally hope it's an action based MMORPG where you go in blasting your targets and hacking away chainsword/powersword in hand not unlike darksiders: wrath of War (AKA 'The Legend of God of Warhammer 40k'), but more MMO friendly.
We can count on a few things coming from Vigil and Joe Madureira. They are as followed.
Rediculously detailed armor.
One incredibly savage and twisted gameworld. (See Darksiders)
Over-the-top dynamic animations and action.
And here is a quote concerning Character customization.
PCG: What are the player customization options? Can a player design their own Space Marine Chapter or Ork Clan?
JM: We have a very robust system for creating distinctive looking characters - and of course, it wouldn’t be Warhammer 40,000 without tons of stuff hanging off your character, including weapons, scrolls, chains, books, medals, and what have you! I hate to say this without showing images to back it up, but I feel like we are going to have the coolest looking characters of any MMO, ever. Of course that isn’t all that hard to achieve being that everything in Warhammer 40,000 is over-the-top badass! Once we begin releasing images, feel free to call me on that remark.
I just hope they focus on a few things and do them incredibly well. I'm thinking gunfire will play out a lot like Gears of War without having to manually aim, in that you select a target, and dive behind some cover, and when you fire or activate a power, you pop up and start spraying. Hopefully Like an Un-failed Tabula Rasa with a sticky cover system.
I think they can break down the Races into 3 factions.
Imperium - IG, SM, WH/DH
Xeno - Eldar, Tau, Orkz
Chaos - Chaos SM, Daemons, Dark Eldar (or Possibly broken down by which Chaos God)
Alternative Chaos - Nurgle, Slaanesh/Tzeentch, Khorne
Reasoning:
The Eldar are a very crafty and Cunning Race, having the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy. It's speculated and has been hinted that The Tau Ethereals are Eldar creations and are responsible for Tau Technology and how they've advanced so quickly. The Eldar are also the ones who guided the Orkz into the Imperium of man thus causing the Armageddon Scenario. However, if it came to social interaction, there would be very little of it between the 2.
The Imperium is obvious.
Chaos is fairly obvious as well, with the exception that the Dark Eldar will attack and pillage anything
I to am wondering what role the individual player will take. I am thinking they may turn the name guild into chapters or hordes for Orks sake. I am very excited by the development of this game howevere, can't wait to see more details at E3.
I hope imperial guard make the cut.
Making so much noise you dont know when to listen.
I think the resounding opinion is that 80% of the Imperium better make it.
I think a revolving check and balance 4 faction system would work well for WH40k with the races I outlined earlier
Tau Fire Warrior > Non-Assault Marine > Eldar Guardian > Chaos Cultist
Chaos Obliterator > Tau Crisis Suit > Ork Killa Kan > Dark Elf Raider
full circle sort of dealings, Also as far as races...everybody in all at once none of this namby pamby bullcrap about expansion races.
Everybody available all up front with Their core homeworlds
IG - Mordian (Puts them closer to the action fighting Orks)
SM - Macragge and Parmenio
Tau - T'au
Orks - Space Hulk above Parmenio with Secondary above Mordian
Eldar - Craftworld Alaitoc (Putting them closer to the action fighting off Chaos)
Chaos - Eye of Terror (Which in turn would put them quite near the Eldar)
Dark Eldar - (at the end of the darkest reaches of the Webway) Commorragh
Dark Eldar and Chaos would start out fighting each other and themselves.
Arena style for the DE and just all out epeen fighting with the forces of Chaos for who's the bigger badass.
This game will have to be pretty high up on the restriction ratings as to be closer to the WH40k Lexicons of Fluff it'd be pretty gruesome and bloody.
Firstly being a Space Marine should be a player aspiration, Imperial Guard should be the closest you get to that at the start of the game. People should defiantly not be able to create there own Space Marine Chapters, unless you want to see “Toilet Seats of the Emperor’s Throne” as a Space Marine guild. Players should be able to form a regiment of the Imperial Guard, a Chapter of Ministorum Battle Brothers, a Cabal of Inquisitors etc.
5 sides would be great, but let’s keep things realistic and stick to 3 sides. There is no need to have Chaos siding with Orcs or Eldar with Tau. Imperial versus only two other sides would be fine.
The OP asked how you grow and mature, you start as a member of a Planetary Defence Force, you graduate to the PvP realms as a Imperial Guardsman, you master the PvP realms to become a Space Marine.
There is huge scope here for a RPG side that is not just Guardsman point and shoot. Under the patronage of a local Inquisitor you could have a great questing RPG MMO. You then graduate to the RvR as a Imperial Guardsman, then on to Space marine.
If they go a more Planentside shooter route quite happy with that too, but make Space Marines something we have to play to achieve, not just handed to us on a plate when we first log in.
The chance to play in a Speed Freaks clan with my mates.....count me in.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH
>>
Combat Interface
The big question here is does the First Person Shooter mentality apply? <snip>
An FPS interface may not keep players involved long enough to put in the hours on an MMO.
<<
That's so not true. Planetside was a MMOFPS, and it was easy to play for 3-4 hours at a time. The reasons were simple - we were fighting for definite gains for our side ("move the map" was the terms), we were fighting together, and we were fighting continuously to make progress.
It's difficult to log out when you are fully engaged like that. You really WANT to stay in and get that tower back so your entire side has a closer spawn point, or the enemy side doesn't and is forced back to using mobile stations to spawn - which you can blow up- or whatever other fight du jour was on. Base/tower assaults and defenses, bridge battles, field battles between the bases, commando raids to take down gens/spawn tubes, ghost hacks to open up new fronts - the variety of things you did kept the game ever interesting.
If WH40k gives each side simple, clear objectives with simple, clear gains to be had, and allow for variety in how you can achieve them, I predict they will do very well on the FPS side.
If they don't, the only people who will play are the ones whos rewards are gained from their kill counter. These are the same players who endlessly jump ship for the next adrenaline rush, and it's a mistake to try to form a long-term relationship with people with short interest spans.
Maybe they should have a good look how well planetside handled vechicles with multiaple people riding in them. Even tho the game is old, they did have alot of good ideas to handle mech/air wars.
Wait a minute... *when* could Orks and Chaos really cooperate?
EDIT: Omit *when*
Most of the replies here revolve around combat, PvE or PvP, and that's fine. WAR basically limited itself to combat and for that reason and because the combat was meaningless and unbalanced it failed.
So whatever they do, they need to give ppl alternative gameplay-mechanics when they don't want to fight. Combat is good and everything, but sometimes i just want to chill, do something else while being in my favorite MMO, improve on my char beyond the range of items and armour.
Give me alternatives, give me plenty of meaningful stuff to do and a truly persistent world our actions can shape and modify. Explore the lore beyond just using it as a backdrop for quests.
Ppl still eat, drink, wear clothing, indulge in entertainment. I want dark bars on vast space ships or i want to learn how to make the best neuro-implants there are. Let me distill alcohol and sell it to the latest recruits who want to drown their latest nightmares come true. Let me manufacture battle drugs or soothing drugs, or halucinative drugs. Or better let me be the high-tech cook. Inventing new food surrogates with all sorts of effects. Give me some recipes, make them modular, let me combine them to come up with something new.
The devs need to think of what ppl do in this setting when they don't fight and kill each other. I can play a shooter only for some hours a day, we haven't heard of anyone yet who collapsed from exhaustion because he played too much CS. If a company wants players to stay in their game 24/7, they need to give them more than just combat and combat centric gameplay.
They need to give them more than just a WAR, they need to give them a world.