Lifers Starting to Bail!

championsFan · April 2010

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by championsFan
It has to do with knowing yourself, knowing whether there are core parts of the game that you will continue to enjoy for years. Many things change in the lifetime of an MMO, but if you buy an LTS for the right reasons then the changes won't matter.

Tell that to the SWG players.

Of course I thought of that particular case, both when I wrote my post and when I bought my Champions LTS, and I thought of Hellgate which suffered the radical change of closing its servers. I also concluded that both of those things were unlikely to happen to Champions, and that to not buy an LTS for those reasons would cause me to miss out on something good because of paranoia.

Darth_Osor · April 2010

Originally posted by Drachasor

We're rather attentive gamers though. Beyond some of the REALLY big names in gaming like Bioware, Blizzard, etc, how many people really pay that much attention to what company made a particular game? I think it is rather similar to movie directors or the like. Some people pay close attention to these things, but a lot of people (quite possibly the vast majority) don't -- note how movie ads might go "from the director of " rather than name the actual director, and I'd think they do this because not enough people would recognize the name.

I am sure some people will not buy any game Cryptic makes after this or at least be highly cautious (wait 6+ months after release) before doing so. Will those be the majority? I don't know.

Of course, like I said earlier, I think even fewer would notice if Cryptic disappeared and a new company showed up run by the same people with a new name.

Haha I dare them to promote their next mmo-lite failboat with "from the makers of CO and STO...".

Yeah only a few people are going to go "Bill Roper? Jack Emmert? I'll pass.", but after two really crappy MMOs in 6 months, the Cryptic name WILL generate that response. I guess you're right that Atari could fold Cryptic and start a new studio with a new name with the same people responsible for the current failures following the same crappy plan and most people won't notice.

championsFan · April 2010

Originally posted by biogerm

Originally posted by Afrolas

I'll never buy a lifetime because the way i see it is once you do, you give up all power you have as a consumer for that product. If i dislike a game or the way it's headed, i can simply cast my vote via the cancel button thus taking my marbles and going home... or to another game.

even though i agree, its personal, if a.net would out of the blue would charge 15$ for gw2 (and clam down there not!) id get a lifetime sub without even wasting a second. but then again a.net delivered a well made game, on the other hand cryptic fail in so many levels, that i still cant get it out of my head that people WILLINGLY paid for life time subs and on pre order.

Even though you would in theory buy an LTS for a game that's not even out yet, you can't understand why other people would do the same? You are probably going to pre-order GW2, but you can't understand why someone would do that with a Cryptic game?

Maybe you don't understand what makes Cryptic's games unique, such as the responsive gameplay in Champions and the classless open build system, or the Star Trek license in STO. These things alone are enough to make us enjoy Cryptic games more than any other games, including your GW2, you should try to remember that these are people you are talking about.

aRidion · April 2010

To be honest I really wonder why all people are saying that this game was a huge fail for Cryptic.

What the purpose of that company? To entertain you? To make a game you are going to play for the next 2 years? To compete with Blizzard? NO....their primary job is to make money and if any of the above things is met while doing so, well more power to them.

What I think those ppl at Cryptic are aware of is, that at the moment there is no way to create another major MMO title, if one does not at least have a somewhat close financial background as Blizz has. So they aim for the quick money using hype over quality as their selling proposition. While this will not and can not generate a longtime playerbase, it generates quick money on the other hand. I personally think that they were very well aware, that given the cloes timeframe an ressources they are only able to create some foundation they "maybe" create more content later on. Thats what they basically did. And their barebone game structure sold pretty well, considering the game itself was utter crap....

So when talking about developement I think its most important to talk about the economic aspect aswell, since those companies do not exist to please you and your gaming needs (well indirectly they should), but to make money in the first place. And as long as those buisiness models are working (cheap hyped game, that dies in a year, but has high initial sales) those game will be popping out in the future

MMO_Doubter · April 2010

Originally posted by Darth_Osor
Haha I dare them to promote their next mmo-lite failboat with "from the makers of CO and STO...".

LOL. You read my mind.

MeTed · April 2010

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Shatter30

Im not sure how you cant conisder this a failure, its fricking Star Trek and they still blew it. This game should be doing awesome and I guarantee you their projected numbers(every business does projections for each year) didnt show the game tanking this quickly which in turn means the game is not doing as well as they will have projected. You can take that to the bank.

On a side note by continually launching games like this more and more people are becoming aware of their business practices and wont purchase future games with them so yes this will continue to hit them in the pocketbook for all future projects.

If they put out another rush-job MMO-lite, will you then admit that they are doing it on purpose? They know what their accounting books look like. We do not.

We have no idea what their license deal for the Trek IP was like. Maybe it was a small rate the first year, and going up in following years. Maybe their plan all along was to drop this game after a year and a half or so.

They did a rush job on a huge, deep IP - either they are complete idiots, or they are not planning for long-term success. Virtually everything they have done with this game screams 'Take the money and run.'

If their plans were to drop the game they could easily blame it on the community. The excuse would be that further developing a game based mostly on community feedback was a failed experiment. In reality this approach drags out content development leading to very little content added over the long run. That in itself will kill the game.

biogerm · April 2010

Originally posted by championsFan

Originally posted by biogerm

Originally posted by Afrolas

I'll never buy a lifetime because the way i see it is once you do, you give up all power you have as a consumer for that product. If i dislike a game or the way it's headed, i can simply cast my vote via the cancel button thus taking my marbles and going home... or to another game.

even though i agree, its personal, if a.net would out of the blue would charge 15$ for gw2 (and clam down there not!) id get a lifetime sub without even wasting a second. but then again a.net delivered a well made game, on the other hand cryptic fail in so many levels, that i still cant get it out of my head that people WILLINGLY paid for life time subs and on pre order.

Even though you would in theory buy an LTS for a game that's not even out yet, you can't understand why other people would do the same? You are probably going to pre-order GW2, but you can't understand why someone would do that with a Cryptic game?

Maybe you don't understand what makes Cryptic's games unique, such as the responsive gameplay in Champions and the classless open build system, or the Star Trek license in STO. These things alone are enough to make us enjoy Cryptic games more than any other games, including your GW2, you should try to remember that these are people you are talking about.

because a.net made gw i.p and sold over 5 mil box of that i.p

because a.ent didn't try to create an mmorpg in 2 years, and have stated many times that gw2 will be ready WHEN its ready.

because they would not insert a CS shop for pvp on a faction side.

because they don't use an old engine and slap on some star-trek skin on it.

because a.net did not buy and i.p for the purpose of saying "we got ST i.p" so its OK for us to create a mediocre game (at best) but its OK because we got an epic i.p so people will come what so ever.

because after 6.5k hours on gw i still play it? (pvp only but still)

because they didn't have time/money/give a crap/ there is no diplomacy what so ever and all you do is kill?

because i feel that companies like that just don't give a damn about us as players and are sure that will buy what so ever as long as it shiny.

i can go on. and for the record gw2 will cost box, will be open world, and no monthly fees, i can wait for all those shitty bad company's to wither and die out of this mmorpg world.

we deserve more.

Garvon3 · April 2010

All new MMOs have people leave in droves within the first few months, these are the MMO hoppers ever launch has to suffer with.

Also, why sue them? It's their fault for not reading about the game before launch.

aRidion · April 2010

Originally posted by Garvon3

All new MMOs have people leave in droves within the first few months, these are the MMO hoppers ever launch has to suffer with.

Thats only true to some extend...there are of course those that want to play some new game while waiting for the new WoW raid instance to open. But on the other hand there were a lot of players that really wanted to stay in their newest game (be it AoC or WAR or STO or whatever). But although you play the game with the intention to stay around and not to follow the newest bandwagon, those customers also can only take that much...and if a game completly fails to deliver everything that is expected, there is no reason not to leave

Dinendae · April 2010

Originally posted by coolgy
Life time subscriptions should've really raised the suspicion flag. You have the ask yourself, why do sucessful games not offer life time subs? Because its not profitable. STO Devs knew their game was half assed and would not last, so in addition to selling boxes, they sold two in a sense.

That is so incorrect I hardly know where to begin. There is nothing wrong with lifetime subscriptions; the problem arises when the lifetime subscription is only offered before the beta ends (CO) or reads that way (STO). LotRO has offered a lifetime sub since launch, and when asked in interviews if it caused them problems their answer has always been no, because only a small percentage of players actually get them.

The problem in STO's place is that the game is pure junk and most who could have cancelled their subs did so. A large percentage of those who are left are the people who bought lifetime subscriptions. Lifetime subscriptions aren't bad if you enjoy the game, but buying them before you try the game is a bad idea.

ll_Shaman_ll · April 2010

Hilarious but predictable. I read maybe one or two short articles about this game at pre-release (not even fully) and maybe saw half a dozen screenshots all in all to date and I could pretty much figure out the game was hyped sh**. Maybe it's me and decades of experience (I've been playing MMO's in one form or another before vast majority of posters on here were even born), but whatever happened to plain old common sense? Too much RedBull, shi**y NuMetal, and crappy reality TV rotted everyone's brains away during the past decade? No, really, I mean how did this game get over 10k subs to being with?

Dinendae · April 2010

Originally posted by Drachasor

Anyhow, Neverwinter Nights will be the next piece of garbage Cryptic puts out.

Not if Hasbro gets their way in court; they have sued to remove Atari's rights to produce anything based on the the Dungeons & Dragons IP. Having seen some of the evidence that Hasbro cited, I am inclined to think their lawsuit will be successful.

Dinendae · April 2010

Originally posted by sadeyx
As I recal LOTRO only offerd a Life time subscription for a very limited amount of time after release, not as an on-going feature.

Now, at the time I would definatly not wanted that, lotro at the begging was utter fail for me, hmm.. but now, yea sometimes I do want to just jump on and do some monster play.

But then, they do still charge for their expansions, so I probably wouldnt be completly satisfied.

LotRO offers the lifetime subscription offer still; for limited times, a couple times a year, you can even purchase a lifetime subscription at a reduced price. Yes you have to pay for the expansions, just as you have to do in other games, but Turbine frequently release major content patches for free.

Dinendae · April 2010

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

I have to agree with Terra. If CO/STO had been major hits, then other devs would look at their crappy business plan of churning out subpar MMOs built on lame engines with cash shops for things that shouldn't be in cash shops in P2P MMOs every 18-24 months and copy it. Cryptic and their games need to fail hard so they can be held out as a model of how NOT to make a MMO and do business in general.

In terms of making a profit - I'm not at all sure EITHER of these games has been a failure for Cryptic.

If that is true - they will keep with their business model.

Perhaps so, but what I am sure of is that their next MMO is going to be heavily scrutinized by everyone first. Sure they've gotten away with this twice now (and some will continued to get suckered in by them), but they're going to have a much harder time hyping their games to the general player base from now on. They've just became the new SOE.

Dinendae · April 2010

Originally posted by Drachasor

Originally posted by Darth_Osor
You're right in that we don't know the financial numbers, but how many people are going to buy another MMO from Cryptic? I know I'm not. People still hate SOE 4.5 years later for what they did to SWG, and if anything Trek fans are even less forgiving.

I'm not a fan of the Champions IP, so I don't know what they were expecting sub number wise, but I'm thinking they are already below their target number. We know their target for STO was 100k, which IMO is pathetic for such a big IP, and two months after launch they are at best at that target and probably already below it with no where to go but down. Cryptic will be hard pressed to ever shake the rep of taking a dump on the Trek franchise.

We're rather attentive gamers though. Beyond some of the REALLY big names in gaming like Bioware, Blizzard, etc, how many people really pay that much attention to what company made a particular game? I think it is rather similar to movie directors or the like. Some people pay close attention to these things, but a lot of people (quite possibly the vast majority) don't -- note how movie ads might go "from the director of " rather than name the actual director, and I'd think they do this because not enough people would recognize the name.

I am sure some people will not buy any game Cryptic makes after this or at least be highly cautious (wait 6+ months after release) before doing so. Will those be the majority? I don't know.

Of course, like I said earlier, I think even fewer would notice if Cryptic disappeared and a new company showed up run by the same people with a new name.

People do tend to remember negative things more though; sure they may not know most of the developers names for regular games, but you can be sure that they remember SOE, Mythic, and Funcom for their disasters. It is similar in movies; most would be hard pressed to name who directed the good movies they saw, but most have heard of Uwe Boll. Similarly, people do know individual names in the MMO fiel;, especially when associated with failure. Bill Ropert was already infamous for the Hellgate:London fiasco. Similarly, Jack Emmert has a reputation for sticking a foot in his mouth.

MMO_Doubter · April 2010

Originally posted by Dinendae
Perhaps so, but what I am sure of is that their next MMO is going to be heavily scrutinized by everyone first. Sure they've gotten away with this twice now (and some will continued to get suckered in by them), but they're going to have a much harder time hyping their games to the general player base from now on. They've just became the new SOE.

I think it wil be more difficult the next time, but despite our best efforts to warn people about what was done with CO, people still flocked to buy STO.

MMO_Doubter · April 2010

Originally posted by ll_Shaman_ll

Hilarious but predictable. I read maybe one or two short articles about this game at pre-release (not even fully) and maybe saw half a dozen screenshots all in all to date and I could pretty much figure out the game was hyped sh**. Maybe it's me and decades of experience (I've been playing MMO's in one form or another before vast majority of posters on here were even born), but whatever happened to plain old common sense? Too much RedBull, shi**y NuMetal, and crappy reality TV rotted everyone's brains away during the past decade? No, really, I mean how did this game get over 10k subs to being with?

IP bait & switch.

Dinendae · April 2010

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Dinendae
Perhaps so, but what I am sure of is that their next MMO is going to be heavily scrutinized by everyone first. Sure they've gotten away with this twice now (and some will continued to get suckered in by them), but they're going to have a much harder time hyping their games to the general player base from now on. They've just became the new SOE.

I think it wil be more difficult the next time, but despite our best efforts to warn people about what was done with CO, people still flocked to buy STO.

True; some enjoy the hyper-casual gameplay that makes up Cryptic's games now, others who are new to MMos may not know better, and some people are just flat out gullible. That being said I do think that future Cryptic games will have a far harder time getting initial box sales, let alone having large amounts of people willing to subscribe to their MMOs for any length of time, that Cryptic's execs may just have a hard time convincing Atari that their continued employment is in Atari's best interests.

Of course, all that goes out the window if Hasbro loses its lawsuit and Cryptic goes back to work on their NWN MMO; big name IPs will get large initial box sales simply because they are big name IPs. Getting those people to continue after the first month is an entirely different matter though.

Vagrant_Zero · April 2010

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Darth_Osor

I have to agree with Terra. If CO/STO had been major hits, then other devs would look at their crappy business plan of churning out subpar MMOs built on lame engines with cash shops for things that shouldn't be in cash shops in P2P MMOs every 18-24 months and copy it. Cryptic and their games need to fail hard so they can be held out as a model of how NOT to make a MMO and do business in general.

In terms of making a profit - I'm not at all sure EITHER of these games has been a failure for Cryptic.
If that is true - they will keep with their business model.

For the amount of (well deserved) disgust for Cryptic that you harbor I'd have expected you to be more familiar with their financials.

CO was a nearly $20M loss for them. STO pre-lim numbers will be released at the end of May. If you're looking for sources, read the Cryptic Post-Morten article in my signature, should provide you with all the proof you could want.

bstiff · April 2010

Originally posted by Dinendae

True; some enjoy the hyper-casual gameplay that makes up Cryptic's games now, others who are new to MMos may not know better, and some people are just flat out gullible. That being said I do think that future Cryptic games will have a far harder time getting initial box sales, let alone having large amounts of people willing to subscribe to their MMOs for any length of time, that Cryptic's execs may just have a hard time convincing Atari that their continued employment is in Atari's best interests.

I guess you can put me in the gullible category. I was there for the crap that was the CO launch and said never again would I deal with cryptic. The when STO was getting ready to launch, I heard about how they were a "new cryptic" and "had learned their lesson with CO" and "wouldn't make the same mistakes again". I decided to give them another chance and lo and behold it was the same thing all over again. The super duper limited time lts available only before the game went live, the back trackinb by cryptic "we never said that...", their contempt for their customers and their encouraging of their fans to silence any dissent were straight from CO. Add to that a portion of the player base who feel "a crappy star trek mmo is better than no star trek mmo" and it's a marriage made in heaven.

In the immortal word of George Bush "shame me twice... can't get fooled again." I will never buy a never cryptic game but I don't think they all should be homeless or die in a fire for producing this crap. Hopefully the large amount of negative reaction to crytic's model will convince other game studios, this is not the best way to produce an mmo.

Darth_Osor · April 2010

Originally posted by ll_Shaman_ll
Hilarious but predictable. I read maybe one or two short articles about this game at pre-release (not even fully) and maybe saw half a dozen screenshots all in all to date and I could pretty much figure out the game was hyped sh**. Maybe it's me and decades of experience (I've been playing MMO's in one form or another before vast majority of posters on here were even born), but whatever happened to plain old common sense? Too much RedBull, shi**y NuMetal, and crappy reality TV rotted everyone's brains away during the past decade? No, really, I mean how did this game get over 10k subs to being with?

Two words: Star Trek

There was a poll on the forums right around launch time. I don't remember if it was right before or shortly after launch, but the question was basically "based on what you've seen, would you be interested in the game if it wasn't Star Trek?", and the answer was overwhelmingly "no". I was one of those who said "hell no", but in the end, my inner Trek fanboi won out over common sense and I caved and bought it anyway and I knew a week later I'd be cancelling before my first month was up. At least I know to avoid anything from Cryptic in the future, assuming they actually last long enough to squeeze out another turd.

AkumaDaimyo · April 2010

Sadly Cryptic probably will screw up again as I hear they are working on a Neverwinter Nights MMO. It's not enough for them to screw up Star Trek, now they have to put their stink on NWN and D&D. I tried the Star Trek MMO with a mere 2 day trial and was so bored I couldn't even finish the tutorial. It was just boring. Yeah I know I should probably try and get past it but dude if your tutorial is so boring it makes people quit before they are done with it that doesn't bode well. Tutorial is supposed to kinda get you interested into playing more while also teaching you to play the game.

Frieza · April 2010

Well today cryptic deled all the mail in live server today.

good thaing i keep video loggs.

Customer would like to have a refund for their products. They are reproaching Cryptic of violating their own EULA since the same people are abusing of the cheats and Cryptic does not keep the game clear and fair for every one.

just 1 of miny bugs

I been telling them for somtime about this and thair are probly hundreds for players useing this cheatand after i was baned of the fourms thay thank i going help them no way in hell!

every one needs to get a cyber attorney.

thay still yet to fix my account or any , other accounts.

and to day My ticket was updataed whith this response. sounds like thay have no ideal how fix their own game!

In looking over this issue we unfortunately will need more information to help us verify it. You post links to youtube videos that you yourself have uploaded. Which means it is your characters that have the extra skills, or at least that is how it seems. Please update this ticket with which of your characters are affected by this bug. If it is not your characters then please give us the name of the character who you noticed had these extra skills and let us know how you noticed them. As for the infraction, it was not given because of the video. It still stands.

the part he the Gm leves out is the fact the forums Mod gave 2 x 10 points for same post to have me Baned right away and i have video proff of in game mail befor cryptic deled it all.

MeTed · April 2010

Originally posted by AkumaDaimyo
Sadly Cryptic probably will screw up again as I hear they are working on a Neverwinter Nights MMO. It's not enough for them to screw up Star Trek, now they have to put their stink on NWN and D&D. I tried the Star Trek MMO with a mere 2 day trial and was so bored I couldn't even finish the tutorial. It was just boring. Yeah I know I should probably try and get past it but dude if your tutorial is so boring it makes people quit before they are done with it that doesn't bode well. Tutorial is supposed to kinda get you interested into playing more while also teaching you to play the game.

I really don't want to even think about the next MMO. in STO leveling to 45 was quick, fairly fun, and easy the first time around. I just wasn't inspired to roll another toon or spend 2-3 hours killing trash for the STF's.

Thubub · April 2010

STO is pretty much done. Typical of MMO's released in the last couple of years. Quick surge in, then players find out there is very little content, maybe enough for about a month of play, then the bottom falls out. I think this is the new MMO financial strategy actually. Put together a crap MMO, hype it or tie it in with an existing fan base, collect on 1st month sales, then let it die. Rinse and repeat.

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