Considering OP who wrote this topic started the discussion just to show how 'his way of thinking is right one' i don't know how you can say 'pot kettle back' to those who disagree? afetr reading the article i don't even think the writer is open minded enough to accept any viewpoints from other side of the fence.
Sad part is that the games that you guys want are already here. They are not WOW clones yet no one is playing them? why? why not support games like Xyson, FE, Mortal Online, Ryzom etc instead of moaning about how WOW is evil incarnated? Rysom has already been ressructed twice due to lack of players support and FE devs were fired to keep the cost down. Maybe you guys need to play more and moan less?
Blizzard is a company that never innovates anything at all and it even goes back before they even released World of Warcraft. My take is this, do mmos need to be different ? Absoultely ! Do they need to have a complex design and complicated to play ? Hell no! MMOs are games for entertainment, nothing more.
Blizzard is a company that never innovates anything at all and it even goes back before they even released World of Warcraft. My take is this, do mmos need to be different ? Absoultely ! Do they need to have a complex design and complicated to play ? Hell no! MMOs are games for entertainment, nothing more.
Depends on the interpretation of complicated. Imo UO was pretty user friendly in the beginning, maybe apart from open PvP as criminals became powerful and more organized while newbies could not step out of any town without insta-death so could not gain skills other than from fighting rats under Brit which was never enough to become capable of survival outside of town. The whole concept of player justice was not attainable as the devs thought it would work out to be. That got polished with other games though, such as EVE. EQ was complicated, but too that was part of the fun of it. Morphing such games into something that more resembles the old CRPG's is entertainment to some, but to others it's the death of an existing great genre.
Players are happy to use each other like cheap whores in order to farm more emblems in order to get more shiny purple pixels.
. It's the 'cheap whores' part that seems familiar. . Why did the author overlook guilds? All the socializing in WoW goes on in guilds, most people leave teh /trade channel. . If you want to see why WoW inspired so much vitriol in the author, why don't you try it out for yourself? . WoW has a ten day free trial.
Nothing interesting here. Same old opinion posted around here just about every week. With no mmo's to play these types of people have nothing better to do but post.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
p.s. no, I wouldn't number EVE amongst the games made by developers who want to make games. It's clearly intended to be a virtual world, not a game. And good on them for it, they've achieved more success than any other virtual world, imho.
If you don't think EVE is a game then I can honestly say you are one of the people that wish to push the MMO genre in the wrong direction. The MMO industry NEEDS more companies like CCP creating games that are unique and that have depth to them. EVE is not for everyone I'll admit that because even I find it extremely boring at times when I played it however, I can never with a straight face say EVE is not a game/MMO or that it is even a bad game/MMO.
MMO's that try to appeal to the widest possible audience are simplistic, unoriginal, and generally boring. This is what WoW does and has managed to become an extremely popular game but in doing so has soldout on just about everything they said they would never do. Good business is not to be confused with good gaming.
"Virtual worlds are not limited to games but, depending on the degree of immediacy presented, can encompass computer conferencing and text based chatrooms."
Players are happy to use each other like cheap whores in order to farm more emblems in order to get more shiny purple pixels.
.
It's the 'cheap whores' part that seems familiar.
Who, me? I see no mention of cheep booze that'll make ya blind though. heh
Players are happy to use each other like cheap whores in order to farm more emblems in order to get more shiny purple pixels while gulping cheep booze making them's blinded as they shove more emblems up into the dark crevices of their imaginary and dysfunctional world.
I agree with most of what Wolfshead say: We do need a big change with the MMOs.
But I don't think most people solo because they can. I think the problem is that the group play isn't as good as it should be. Grouping is rather fun but it could be a lot better, the group dynamic you get by tank, spank, heal, CC and buff isn't good enough anymore. People play the way they think is most fun.
We need a MMO where grouping truly is fun, like when you play a pen and paper RPG, doing that yourself with a gm isn't fun. Being 4-6 people really is. Where each player truly give as much as they take.
I think there is a lot we can learn from P & P games, hopefully will CCP/white wolf make something around those lines.
I personally would love a historical game without mages and healers, no holy triad and a better ai.
I agree with most of what Wolfshead say: We do need a big change with the MMOs.
But I don't think most people solo because they can. I think the problem is that the group play isn't as good as it should be. Grouping is rather fun but it could be a lot better, the group dynamic you get by tank, spank, heal, CC and buff isn't good enough anymore. People play the way they think is most fun.
We need a MMO where grouping truly is fun, like when you play a pen and paper RPG, doing that yourself with a gm isn't fun. Being 4-6 people really is. Where each player truly give as much as they take.
I think there is a lot we can learn from P & P games, hopefully will CCP/white wolf make something around those lines.
I personally would love a historical game without mages and healers, no holy triad and a better ai.
Yep, as much as the Holy Trinity was disliked by some in EQ1, it worked. Of course some other classes could fill the gaps, like Drui's. Solo was not impossible for most, but slower. It reflected P&P well enough, though could have taken improvement rather than abandonment.
Interesting you bring it up though, I'm very fond of the D20 combat system. I have a rough version I made for a real-time engine. It's really tough to translate a good turn-base system to live action though, but has been a learning experience to work with. Don't know if I'll ever use it in a project.
Interesting articles. Thanks for posting the links. Gives you a lot to think about.
The gamasutra article is very accurate, imho and very valid points.
Point #1: Virtual worlds live or die by their ability to attract newbies
Point #2: Newbies won't play a virtual world that has a major feature they don't like.
Point #3: Players judge all virtual worlds as a reflection of the one they first got into.
Point #4: Many players will think some poor design choices are good.
Wolfshead's article I do agree with but WoW is not responsible for every evil. Unfortunately many people do want to play what they know, even if they then complain about it being exactly like what they've played.
It would be great if Blizzard took WoW back to the drawing board though and seriously didn't make each class so independent as there isn't a need for grouping when almost every class can hit at range, cc, and heal themselves. Same for the instancing. The new LFG tool is nice to be able to actually do low level instances, but people don't travel around the world anymore.
Building a game that appeals to the casual (as in I can't play 6 hours a night gang) and the hardcore (as in this is what I do for fun only group) may be near impossible.
It's going to be interesting to see what does come out in the future.
BTW - Farmville and the clones are played by older people in general - I don't get it as I find it incredibly boring and pointless - but I know alot of people that think its all that!
Yes, another thread (OP) that really serves up whats wrong with the genre and why the last 4 years of mmorpgs has been lack-luster; proven.
But sure enough, a WoW enthusiasts, a circus ole themepark fanatic will come here who has grandeur of defeating the Lich King or is in awe of those that have spent countless hours bashing hordes of pve mobs to feel heroic while making their way to the final boss piñata to spam a series of buttons in that room and tell ya why your wrong here.
Yet another "Its my way or the wrong way" poster.
Well if that isnt the pot calling the kettle black, I dont know what is. See; im a regular nostradamus.
Considering OP who wrote this topic started the discussion just to show how 'his way of thinking is right one' i don't know how you can say 'pot kettle back' to those who disagree? afetr reading the article i don't even think the writer is open minded enough to accept any viewpoints from other side of the fence.
Sad part is that the games that you guys want are already here. They are not WOW clones yet no one is playing them? why? why not support games like Xyson, FE, Mortal Online, Ryzom etc instead of moaning about how WOW is evil incarnated? Rysom has already been ressructed twice due to lack of players support and FE devs were fired to keep the cost down. Maybe you guys need to play more and moan less?
Well, first of all....I didn't start the discussion to say that my way of thinking is the "right one." I started it because I actually found the article(s) INTERESTING in some of the things they said. If you disagree with the articles...tell us why. That's the whole point of discussion....sharing like views AND opposing ones.
Well, my own personal views on the whole debacle of MMO "life" these days is not entirely a "blame it on WoW and themeparks" view. Although....I certainly DO see where the streamlining of games to accomodate the casual player has grossly affected my own personal enjoyment of MOST of what the genre has to offer. Although, imo....there are still some fantastic games out there....some of them are NOT "newer" games. But this is just MY opiion based on the kind of games I enjoy, and doesn't take into account the rest of the market, which...has become over all a casual gamers' market.
I think, as the articles both mention, to different degrees, that...as always....businesses are businesses. Their focus is probably to a greater percentage on the money they can make, than on building up the genre itself. I think they're interested in making polished games that cater to, again as the article said, the absolute lowest denominator, so as to draw the most players. And if the "most players" comes from a segment of the population that has never played MMOs before their game, or from those that HAVE....I don't think that so much matters to them as long as they're bringing in the absolute MOST possible income.
There are just a lot of points in both of those articles that got me to thinking about the state of the genre itself....that's all. But you're right...the views can be polarizing, whether related to the subject matter of the articles themselves, or just the general topic as a whole.
Secondly, a mmo-wide cataclysm would be amazing. Wiping all toons to L1 would not only be hilarious, it would be inspiring I think and beneficial to the mmo industry in the long run. Communities would be forced to work together again and *gasp* communicate with eachother. The funniest part would be all the gold farmers and 1337-boi elitists losing all their precious gear and achievements, reducing them to either quiting(which 98% of them would) or start over.
And that last sentence...is why it will never happen. It would require developers taking a RIDICULOUSLY huge risk short term, for only a POSSIBLE long term benefit. But yes....it would BE exciting! And I know that I, personally, would not quit, but would likely feel a great and refreshing "new birth" experience from the unknown of starting over.
I think that is part of what is lacking in MMOs of today. There seems to be less and less that feeling of discovery....of forging off into a unknown "world" full of....well....UNKNOWN things to learn, unknown enemies to conquer, unknown lands to explore. It's all just too familiar now, and sadly....stale....sometimes. There is that "been there done that" feel to it, even in many BRAND new games, that SHOULD really feel like new adventures. There seems to be very little sense of wonder in it all any more.
" Player: You don't have teleporting! How can I rejoin my group if I miss a session?
Designer: Well gee, maybe by omitting teleportation I'm kinda dropping a hint that you can have a meaningful gaming experience, without always having to group with the same people of the same level and run a treadmill the whole time?
Player: Are you NUTS? I want to play with my friends, and I want to play with them RIGHT NOW!
Designer: But how are you ever going to make new friends? How -
Player: Are you listening? RIGHT NOW!
Designer: (Sigh) "
That is something a 12 yr old would say.
And any company that caters to 12 yr olds, deserves to fail.
" Player: You don't have teleporting! How can I rejoin my group if I miss a session?
Designer: Well gee, maybe by omitting teleportation I'm kinda dropping a hint that you can have a meaningful gaming experience, without always having to group with the same people of the same level and run a treadmill the whole time?
Player: Are you NUTS? I want to play with my friends, and I want to play with them RIGHT NOW!
Designer: But how are you ever going to make new friends? How -
Player: Are you listening? RIGHT NOW!
Designer: (Sigh) "
That is something a 12 yr old would say.
And any company that caters to 12 yr olds, deserves to fail.
Because....
12 yr olds have no money.
Ahh but....
12 year olds have parents....who have money.
Correct. And the tweens and early teens also have a ridiculous amount of disposable income themselves, as they have no mortgage, car payments, utility bills, or other expenses for their allowance, holiday/birthday money, etc to go to. Nexon and a few other MMO companies have been extremely successful at targetting that market.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
" Player: You don't have teleporting! How can I rejoin my group if I miss a session?
Designer: Well gee, maybe by omitting teleportation I'm kinda dropping a hint that you can have a meaningful gaming experience, without always having to group with the same people of the same level and run a treadmill the whole time?
Player: Are you NUTS? I want to play with my friends, and I want to play with them RIGHT NOW!
Designer: But how are you ever going to make new friends? How -
Player: Are you listening? RIGHT NOW!
Designer: (Sigh) "
That is something a 12 yr old would say.
And any company that caters to 12 yr olds, deserves to fail.
Because....
12 yr olds have no money.
Ahh but....
12 year olds have parents....who have money.
Correct. And the tweens and early teens also have a ridiculous amount of disposable income themselves, as they have no mortgage, car payments, utility bills, or other expenses for their allowance, holiday/birthday money, etc to go to. Nexon and a few other MMO companies have been extremely successful at targetting that market.
Yup.
And many if not all MMO's sell gametime cards ($15 SOE 1 month cards sold at Walmart and Best Buy as well as $30 sixty day cards for WoW sold almost everywhere to name a few big names). So even if the kid gets $5 a week for allowance or mows 1 lawn a week they can easily afford to play these games even without mommy/daddy's credit cards.
And when I was 12 I used to get $20 a week for allowance.
And you can also figure in the fact that many people give game time cards as gifts as well.
Also Video Games are the new babysitter for most parents. Wanna keep the kid entertained and out of your hair without worrying about them getting injured or kidnapped? Plop them down infront of a game. My sister gave my nephew (13) a copy of WoW for his birthday last year because it keeps him busy and is cheaper than buying a new game every month. And sadly I know a lot of parents who have done the same (one actually has his kids farm dailies for him when hes watching TV or at the store...)
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Simply put i stopped reading at "Overpowered Hero class?" (okay no not really) if he knew what he was even really talking about then he wouldn't call it overpowered. IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING but that is no longer the case.
How could anyone call WoW unimaginable for what it has done? Yes it may be similar to say EQ to some extent but at its launch it was ingenuity, it was still rather unique. This just looks like some of the same old ranting of a typical MMO veteran, times can change; but i see all this WoW bashing as rather misguided. How can he say WoW has been engineered to be addictive (not that it can't be) ? That could be said for every other MMO. I can refer you to a friend who gained 40 pounds via runescape. Addiction usually indicates underlying problems, say abuse or relationship troubles.
Way to make it sound like a conspiracy, I think if you went on to a typical WoW player the most you'll be getting about change from him would be to bring something back like say World pvp, what is this face-lift bullshit hes blabbering on about?
Now on another note, it is also not blizzards fault that so many smaller companies decide to copy-paste their game into a bootleg style version and change its name (ala Alganon [sp?]) . They want easy money, and thats the sole reason why the industry is going down. No ingenuity on their part. Maybe blizz hasn't done anything groundbreaking recently, but players like their game to generally stay the same. IF WoW lost any of its major factors and the game made some sort of huge 180, then a huge chunk of the subscribers would cancel and ruin profits and thus ruining the game. I did say earlier times can change but it is not always necessary.
The fact that you need people for "so called heroic" dungeons is a factor of community. If you mean relationships the dude states it like its impossible to acquire them! The thing is the truth is absolutely on the contrary; friendships are inevitable in WoW. I'd also like to mention an example of an improvement to the "community problem" WoW faces..supposedly..Rated battlegrounds. You need to work together to win that at least. How could i also forget raids; if you want to excel at end-game pve you need a guild, and you need to work together. I feel the strongest aspect of community in WoW than i have in most other MMOs (the only other comparable I'd say is EvE or LotR).
Please give the ranting a res, there is no conspiracy going about, Blizzard is not the problem of the industry. Instead the blogger focused a little only on the real problem which is fucking farmville. You wanted to know what lack of ingenuity looked liked? Well it looks like farmville.
The only thing I found reasonable to comment on in Cripnoah's post about is that he/she must not of played WoW lately or he/she wouldn't of made the statement; "friendships are inevitable in WoW". Priceless, too funny really because WoW has the worst community next to DF right now. A new player can make more enemies than friends in the first day of playing WoW than the amount of friends they could possibly have there if they had played the entire lifespan of the game itself. Those are not encouraging numbers.
As far as it "not being Blizzard's fault" for the clone mmo's? It is exactly for that reason, that there are clone mmo's of WoW that Blizzard needs to be an example for other companies since they obviously are in the spotlight.
Bottom line is Blizzard and a few other companies (that are following Blizzard's lead) are catering to the wrong type of gamers and the result is causing a spiral in the wrong direction for mmo gaming's future.
Simply put i stopped reading at "Overpowered Hero class?" (okay no not really) if he knew what he was even really talking about then he wouldn't call it overpowered. IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING but that is no longer the case.
How could anyone call WoW unimaginable for what it has done? Yes it may be similar to say EQ to some extent but at its launch it was ingenuity, it was still rather unique. This just looks like some of the same old ranting of a typical MMO veteran, times can change; but i see all this WoW bashing as rather misguided. How can he say WoW has been engineered to be addictive (not that it can't be) ? That could be said for every other MMO. I can refer you to a friend who gained 40 pounds via runescape. Addiction usually indicates underlying problems, say abuse or relationship troubles.
Way to make it sound like a conspiracy, I think if you went on to a typical WoW player the most you'll be getting about change from him would be to bring something back like say World pvp, what is this face-lift bullshit hes blabbering on about?
Now on another note, it is also not blizzards fault that so many smaller companies decide to copy-paste their game into a bootleg style version and change its name (ala Alganon [sp?]) . They want easy money, and thats the sole reason why the industry is going down. No ingenuity on their part. Maybe blizz hasn't done anything groundbreaking recently, but players like their game to generally stay the same. IF WoW lost any of its major factors and the game made some sort of huge 180, then a huge chunk of the subscribers would cancel and ruin profits and thus ruining the game. I did say earlier times can change but it is not always necessary.
The fact that you need people for "so called heroic" dungeons is a factor of community. If you mean relationships the dude states it like its impossible to acquire them! The thing is the truth is absolutely on the contrary; friendships are inevitable in WoW. I'd also like to mention an example of an improvement to the "community problem" WoW faces..supposedly..Rated battlegrounds. You need to work together to win that at least. How could i also forget raids; if you want to excel at end-game pve you need a guild, and you need to work together. I feel the strongest aspect of community in WoW than i have in most other MMOs (the only other comparable I'd say is EvE or LotR).
Please give the ranting a res, there is no conspiracy going about, Blizzard is not the problem of the industry. Instead the blogger focused a little only on the real problem which is fucking farmville. You wanted to know what lack of ingenuity looked liked? Well it looks like farmville.
I have to disagree on the invevitablity of friendships. The whole looking for dungeon got released shortly after I resubbed. While LFD is good for its ability to get you a group fast and easy. It being cross server defeats the 'making friends while grouping.' Now granted I am only one person with an opinon, though it seemed that I was only grouping through LFD with very intelligent AI. Becuase you will never be able to team or befriend that person outside of that said instance. It made the whole process inpersonal. It was point A to point B and down boss C, complete dungeon.
I have made more friends through joining groups and thus getting into their guilds when I find out we mesh in playstyle or sense of humor etc. I miss this aspect very much in MMOs. Camping Medusas in EFP, the various bots and mutant cames in Pleasant Meadows. Or in Daoc with its variable camps and such. Hell even Aion had its various mission and mob hot spots that I would manage to get into.
Maybe I did something wrong or just wasnt looking in the right spots. But WoW felt very lonely, and many of the MMOs that I have tried lately have had that feeling that I am playing an Online Game but just seeing blips of other players. Ones that dont want to interact because it is easier and faster to get the job done themselves, by themselves.
I could rant about mechanics, graphics and etc. But for me it all comes down to one thing. Grouping and Making Friends. Most MMOs just feel like a cold lonely static world.
p.s. no, I wouldn't number EVE amongst the games made by developers who want to make games. It's clearly intended to be a virtual world, not a game. And good on them for it, they've achieved more success than any other virtual world, imho.
If you don't think EVE is a game then I can honestly say you are one of the people that wish to push the MMO genre in the wrong direction. The MMO industry NEEDS more companies like CCP creating games that are unique and that have depth to them. EVE is not for everyone I'll admit that because even I find it extremely boring at times when I played it however, I can never with a straight face say EVE is not a game/MMO or that it is even a bad game/MMO.
Gee, maybe that's why I said that (a) it was great that some developers strove to develop virtual worlds, and that (b) EVE was the best of them. I have always said that the MMO industry needs companies like CCP.
You know perfectly well what is meant by the distinction between "virtual worlds" and "games", and you know perfectly well that it doesn't mean EVE is not a game, it's well-understood terminology in this genre for describing approaches to game design.
But it has always been clear, and this thread has made it even more clear, that it's not acceptable on this forum to merely say that virtual worlds and sandboxes are a good thing. You're still a heretic unless you also say that themeparks, games made as games, for entertainment and nothing deeper, are shit, and that everyone who plays or likes them is a stupid moron who should just get the hell out of the genre and leave it to the cool kids who like virtual worlds and sandboxes.
The only thing I found reasonable to comment on in Cripnoah's post about is that he/she must not of played WoW lately or he/she wouldn't of made the statement; "friendships are inevitable in WoW". Priceless, too funny really because WoW has the worst community next to DF right now. A new player can make more enemies than friends in the first day of playing WoW than the amount of friends they could possibly have there if they had played the entire lifespan of the game itself. Those are not encouraging numbers.
And from there it can only continue to spiral downward. You see, those that get very involved in communities are like the silent majority, we get all wrapped up in our guild forums and playing the games we have little to complain about along with our regular groups. Those that want nothing to do with community… well wind up as a greater majority complaining in dev forums that the game is not solo-friendly enough, that the group features are too demanding etc. After all, they play the game and when taking a break, they don’t have guild forums to socialize in, or instant messages, so it’s off to the game forums to persuade devs and publishers to do things their way, crippling the playability for others.
Since there is no real community connection for them (what keeps us in our games often), it’s no big deal to go to other game forums (live and in development) and whine there for WoW features, since their solo boredom drives then to want WoW clones to play for a moment in time as they have no community connection, 10000000 search results on google for people/kids asking for WoW type games probably gives us a hint to that.
But those that are content with their guild forums and guild hunting groups that last for hours, well are oblivious to the end-around attack coming from the anti-social players(come and gone now), that pretty much want every game to be anti-social so they may feel as if they fit in now. Human nature, misery loves company, or at least likes to know everyone else is suffereing in some way.There is just something wrong with the psyche of the nation(of the West), and our media more so reflects that as the media continues to deteriorate.
This article is garbage. Little more than hate on things the writer doesn't like (WoW a lot apparently).
I especially like these though
"I remember people who I used to play with back in good old days of EverQuest who migrated to WoW with me back around 2004-2005. Within months they had changed completely. They were too busy soloing to care about grouping. Why? Because they could — because Blizzard promoted it."
Maybe Blizzard promoted it, maybe it was something else, maybe they didn't like playing with him as much as he thought.
"The lethargic MMO community of 2010 doesn’t have the courage, maturity and will to carry out that kind of public boycott today."
It would be a lot more mature of him to realize not everyone shares his taste in games.
And his idea of a "real cataclysm" is a joke right? I can only hope.
Oki since when WOW has the monopole of the MMO industry? Because the only way Blizzard could have stopped the evolution of MMO is by getting a Full monopole. In every market in the world the key to succes is less expenses for more results, MMOs arent an exeception, Blizzard wont invest millions of dollars into a game that is already succesfull and is a winning card. This Wow bashing article is making me sick. The Market aint ready for innovation because the customers buys the low tech/quality crap, so we get some really bad games that finds a way to survive. Blizzard has made his role into innovation, perhaps they will make a new step foward after cataclism but now they and I dont see the point doing it. Other Studios must take the lead to force other majors to step up with them, but from what I see none has tried to do so since WOW.
MMO is a MARKET not a philosophy, and when you are in a market you need to make money, if the market requires innovation believe me producers will find a way to make some. For now, like it or not, Blizzard is just the best Market player.
I will add to that, that I would really like to see innovation going, from whoever does it, CCP perhaps with WoDO, but each time a Cryptic studio puts a STO on the market, MMO market just gets 5 years back in time.
The only power we got as customers is the power to buy or not to buy. If none buys a game (even if its a Star trek or Star wars or other nice name )the producers will have to make market check and quality checks prior to lauch date to see if it will get cash in their wallet.
this was my reply to the article... ill probaly get cut off by moderators.
Comments
Considering OP who wrote this topic started the discussion just to show how 'his way of thinking is right one' i don't know how you can say 'pot kettle back' to those who disagree? afetr reading the article i don't even think the writer is open minded enough to accept any viewpoints from other side of the fence.
Sad part is that the games that you guys want are already here. They are not WOW clones yet no one is playing them? why? why not support games like Xyson, FE, Mortal Online, Ryzom etc instead of moaning about how WOW is evil incarnated? Rysom has already been ressructed twice due to lack of players support and FE devs were fired to keep the cost down. Maybe you guys need to play more and moan less?
Blizzard is a company that never innovates anything at all and it even goes back before they even released World of Warcraft. My take is this, do mmos need to be different ? Absoultely ! Do they need to have a complex design and complicated to play ? Hell no! MMOs are games for entertainment, nothing more.
Depends on the interpretation of complicated. Imo UO was pretty user friendly in the beginning, maybe apart from open PvP as criminals became powerful and more organized while newbies could not step out of any town without insta-death so could not gain skills other than from fighting rats under Brit which was never enough to become capable of survival outside of town. The whole concept of player justice was not attainable as the devs thought it would work out to be. That got polished with other games though, such as EVE. EQ was complicated, but too that was part of the fun of it. Morphing such games into something that more resembles the old CRPG's is entertainment to some, but to others it's the death of an existing great genre.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
improving the new player introduction into the game and to make the beginning areas fun again for new people coming into the game.
Though I know what you are getting at....that sentence doesn't make sense. You cannot make the beginning areas fun AGAIN for NEW people.......
Hey! I think that wolf guy posts here!
..
It's the 'cheap whores' part that seems familiar.
.
Why did the author overlook guilds? All the socializing in WoW goes on in guilds, most people leave teh /trade channel.
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If you want to see why WoW inspired so much vitriol in the author, why don't you try it out for yourself?
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WoW has a ten day free trial.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Nothing interesting here. Same old opinion posted around here just about every week. With no mmo's to play these types of people have nothing better to do but post.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
If you don't think EVE is a game then I can honestly say you are one of the people that wish to push the MMO genre in the wrong direction. The MMO industry NEEDS more companies like CCP creating games that are unique and that have depth to them. EVE is not for everyone I'll admit that because even I find it extremely boring at times when I played it however, I can never with a straight face say EVE is not a game/MMO or that it is even a bad game/MMO.
MMO's that try to appeal to the widest possible audience are simplistic, unoriginal, and generally boring. This is what WoW does and has managed to become an extremely popular game but in doing so has soldout on just about everything they said they would never do. Good business is not to be confused with good gaming.
P.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game
"A video game is an electonric game that involves interaction with a user inferface to generate visual feedback on a video device."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_world
"Virtual worlds are not limited to games but, depending on the degree of immediacy presented, can encompass computer conferencing and text based chatrooms."
Who, me? I see no mention of cheep booze that'll make ya blind though. heh
Players are happy to use each other like cheap whores in order to farm more emblems in order to get more shiny purple pixels while gulping cheep booze making them's blinded as they shove more emblems up into the dark crevices of their imaginary and dysfunctional world.
See the diff? needed more creativity
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I agree with most of what Wolfshead say: We do need a big change with the MMOs.
But I don't think most people solo because they can. I think the problem is that the group play isn't as good as it should be. Grouping is rather fun but it could be a lot better, the group dynamic you get by tank, spank, heal, CC and buff isn't good enough anymore. People play the way they think is most fun.
We need a MMO where grouping truly is fun, like when you play a pen and paper RPG, doing that yourself with a gm isn't fun. Being 4-6 people really is. Where each player truly give as much as they take.
I think there is a lot we can learn from P & P games, hopefully will CCP/white wolf make something around those lines.
I personally would love a historical game without mages and healers, no holy triad and a better ai.
Yep, as much as the Holy Trinity was disliked by some in EQ1, it worked. Of course some other classes could fill the gaps, like Drui's. Solo was not impossible for most, but slower. It reflected P&P well enough, though could have taken improvement rather than abandonment.
Interesting you bring it up though, I'm very fond of the D20 combat system. I have a rough version I made for a real-time engine. It's really tough to translate a good turn-base system to live action though, but has been a learning experience to work with. Don't know if I'll ever use it in a project.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Interesting articles. Thanks for posting the links. Gives you a lot to think about.
The gamasutra article is very accurate, imho and very valid points.
Point #1: Virtual worlds live or die by their ability to attract newbies
Point #2: Newbies won't play a virtual world that has a major feature they don't like.
Point #3: Players judge all virtual worlds as a reflection of the one they first got into.
Point #4: Many players will think some poor design choices are good.
Wolfshead's article I do agree with but WoW is not responsible for every evil. Unfortunately many people do want to play what they know, even if they then complain about it being exactly like what they've played.
It would be great if Blizzard took WoW back to the drawing board though and seriously didn't make each class so independent as there isn't a need for grouping when almost every class can hit at range, cc, and heal themselves. Same for the instancing. The new LFG tool is nice to be able to actually do low level instances, but people don't travel around the world anymore.
Building a game that appeals to the casual (as in I can't play 6 hours a night gang) and the hardcore (as in this is what I do for fun only group) may be near impossible.
It's going to be interesting to see what does come out in the future.
BTW - Farmville and the clones are played by older people in general - I don't get it as I find it incredibly boring and pointless - but I know alot of people that think its all that!
Proud member of Hammerfist Clan Gaming Community.
Currently playing: RIFT, EQ2, WoW, LoTRO
Retired: Warhammer, AoC, EQ
Waiting: SWToR & GW2
Well, first of all....I didn't start the discussion to say that my way of thinking is the "right one." I started it because I actually found the article(s) INTERESTING in some of the things they said. If you disagree with the articles...tell us why. That's the whole point of discussion....sharing like views AND opposing ones.
Secondly...I'm not a "he."
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Well, my own personal views on the whole debacle of MMO "life" these days is not entirely a "blame it on WoW and themeparks" view. Although....I certainly DO see where the streamlining of games to accomodate the casual player has grossly affected my own personal enjoyment of MOST of what the genre has to offer. Although, imo....there are still some fantastic games out there....some of them are NOT "newer" games. But this is just MY opiion based on the kind of games I enjoy, and doesn't take into account the rest of the market, which...has become over all a casual gamers' market.
I think, as the articles both mention, to different degrees, that...as always....businesses are businesses. Their focus is probably to a greater percentage on the money they can make, than on building up the genre itself. I think they're interested in making polished games that cater to, again as the article said, the absolute lowest denominator, so as to draw the most players. And if the "most players" comes from a segment of the population that has never played MMOs before their game, or from those that HAVE....I don't think that so much matters to them as long as they're bringing in the absolute MOST possible income.
There are just a lot of points in both of those articles that got me to thinking about the state of the genre itself....that's all. But you're right...the views can be polarizing, whether related to the subject matter of the articles themselves, or just the general topic as a whole.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
And that last sentence...is why it will never happen. It would require developers taking a RIDICULOUSLY huge risk short term, for only a POSSIBLE long term benefit. But yes....it would BE exciting! And I know that I, personally, would not quit, but would likely feel a great and refreshing "new birth" experience from the unknown of starting over.
I think that is part of what is lacking in MMOs of today. There seems to be less and less that feeling of discovery....of forging off into a unknown "world" full of....well....UNKNOWN things to learn, unknown enemies to conquer, unknown lands to explore. It's all just too familiar now, and sadly....stale....sometimes. There is that "been there done that" feel to it, even in many BRAND new games, that SHOULD really feel like new adventures. There seems to be very little sense of wonder in it all any more.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Ahh but....
12 year olds have parents....who have money.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Correct. And the tweens and early teens also have a ridiculous amount of disposable income themselves, as they have no mortgage, car payments, utility bills, or other expenses for their allowance, holiday/birthday money, etc to go to. Nexon and a few other MMO companies have been extremely successful at targetting that market.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yup.
And many if not all MMO's sell gametime cards ($15 SOE 1 month cards sold at Walmart and Best Buy as well as $30 sixty day cards for WoW sold almost everywhere to name a few big names). So even if the kid gets $5 a week for allowance or mows 1 lawn a week they can easily afford to play these games even without mommy/daddy's credit cards.
And when I was 12 I used to get $20 a week for allowance.
And you can also figure in the fact that many people give game time cards as gifts as well.
Also Video Games are the new babysitter for most parents. Wanna keep the kid entertained and out of your hair without worrying about them getting injured or kidnapped? Plop them down infront of a game. My sister gave my nephew (13) a copy of WoW for his birthday last year because it keeps him busy and is cheaper than buying a new game every month. And sadly I know a lot of parents who have done the same (one actually has his kids farm dailies for him when hes watching TV or at the store...)
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Simply put i stopped reading at "Overpowered Hero class?" (okay no not really) if he knew what he was even really talking about then he wouldn't call it overpowered. IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING but that is no longer the case.
How could anyone call WoW unimaginable for what it has done? Yes it may be similar to say EQ to some extent but at its launch it was ingenuity, it was still rather unique. This just looks like some of the same old ranting of a typical MMO veteran, times can change; but i see all this WoW bashing as rather misguided. How can he say WoW has been engineered to be addictive (not that it can't be) ? That could be said for every other MMO. I can refer you to a friend who gained 40 pounds via runescape. Addiction usually indicates underlying problems, say abuse or relationship troubles.
Way to make it sound like a conspiracy, I think if you went on to a typical WoW player the most you'll be getting about change from him would be to bring something back like say World pvp, what is this face-lift bullshit hes blabbering on about?
Now on another note, it is also not blizzards fault that so many smaller companies decide to copy-paste their game into a bootleg style version and change its name (ala Alganon [sp?]) . They want easy money, and thats the sole reason why the industry is going down. No ingenuity on their part. Maybe blizz hasn't done anything groundbreaking recently, but players like their game to generally stay the same. IF WoW lost any of its major factors and the game made some sort of huge 180, then a huge chunk of the subscribers would cancel and ruin profits and thus ruining the game. I did say earlier times can change but it is not always necessary.
The fact that you need people for "so called heroic" dungeons is a factor of community. If you mean relationships the dude states it like its impossible to acquire them! The thing is the truth is absolutely on the contrary; friendships are inevitable in WoW. I'd also like to mention an example of an improvement to the "community problem" WoW faces..supposedly..Rated battlegrounds. You need to work together to win that at least. How could i also forget raids; if you want to excel at end-game pve you need a guild, and you need to work together. I feel the strongest aspect of community in WoW than i have in most other MMOs (the only other comparable I'd say is EvE or LotR).
Please give the ranting a res, there is no conspiracy going about, Blizzard is not the problem of the industry. Instead the blogger focused a little only on the real problem which is fucking farmville. You wanted to know what lack of ingenuity looked liked? Well it looks like farmville.
The only thing I found reasonable to comment on in Cripnoah's post about is that he/she must not of played WoW lately or he/she wouldn't of made the statement; "friendships are inevitable in WoW". Priceless, too funny really because WoW has the worst community next to DF right now. A new player can make more enemies than friends in the first day of playing WoW than the amount of friends they could possibly have there if they had played the entire lifespan of the game itself. Those are not encouraging numbers.
As far as it "not being Blizzard's fault" for the clone mmo's? It is exactly for that reason, that there are clone mmo's of WoW that Blizzard needs to be an example for other companies since they obviously are in the spotlight.
Bottom line is Blizzard and a few other companies (that are following Blizzard's lead) are catering to the wrong type of gamers and the result is causing a spiral in the wrong direction for mmo gaming's future.
I have to disagree on the invevitablity of friendships. The whole looking for dungeon got released shortly after I resubbed. While LFD is good for its ability to get you a group fast and easy. It being cross server defeats the 'making friends while grouping.' Now granted I am only one person with an opinon, though it seemed that I was only grouping through LFD with very intelligent AI. Becuase you will never be able to team or befriend that person outside of that said instance. It made the whole process inpersonal. It was point A to point B and down boss C, complete dungeon.
I have made more friends through joining groups and thus getting into their guilds when I find out we mesh in playstyle or sense of humor etc. I miss this aspect very much in MMOs. Camping Medusas in EFP, the various bots and mutant cames in Pleasant Meadows. Or in Daoc with its variable camps and such. Hell even Aion had its various mission and mob hot spots that I would manage to get into.
Maybe I did something wrong or just wasnt looking in the right spots. But WoW felt very lonely, and many of the MMOs that I have tried lately have had that feeling that I am playing an Online Game but just seeing blips of other players. Ones that dont want to interact because it is easier and faster to get the job done themselves, by themselves.
I could rant about mechanics, graphics and etc. But for me it all comes down to one thing. Grouping and Making Friends. Most MMOs just feel like a cold lonely static world.
Gee, maybe that's why I said that (a) it was great that some developers strove to develop virtual worlds, and that (b) EVE was the best of them. I have always said that the MMO industry needs companies like CCP.
You know perfectly well what is meant by the distinction between "virtual worlds" and "games", and you know perfectly well that it doesn't mean EVE is not a game, it's well-understood terminology in this genre for describing approaches to game design.
But it has always been clear, and this thread has made it even more clear, that it's not acceptable on this forum to merely say that virtual worlds and sandboxes are a good thing. You're still a heretic unless you also say that themeparks, games made as games, for entertainment and nothing deeper, are shit, and that everyone who plays or likes them is a stupid moron who should just get the hell out of the genre and leave it to the cool kids who like virtual worlds and sandboxes.
And from there it can only continue to spiral downward. You see, those that get very involved in communities are like the silent majority, we get all wrapped up in our guild forums and playing the games we have little to complain about along with our regular groups. Those that want nothing to do with community… well wind up as a greater majority complaining in dev forums that the game is not solo-friendly enough, that the group features are too demanding etc. After all, they play the game and when taking a break, they don’t have guild forums to socialize in, or instant messages, so it’s off to the game forums to persuade devs and publishers to do things their way, crippling the playability for others.
Since there is no real community connection for them (what keeps us in our games often), it’s no big deal to go to other game forums (live and in development) and whine there for WoW features, since their solo boredom drives then to want WoW clones to play for a moment in time as they have no community connection, 10000000 search results on google for people/kids asking for WoW type games probably gives us a hint to that.
But those that are content with their guild forums and guild hunting groups that last for hours, well are oblivious to the end-around attack coming from the anti-social players(come and gone now), that pretty much want every game to be anti-social so they may feel as if they fit in now. Human nature, misery loves company, or at least likes to know everyone else is suffereing in some way.There is just something wrong with the psyche of the nation(of the West), and our media more so reflects that as the media continues to deteriorate.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
This article is garbage. Little more than hate on things the writer doesn't like (WoW a lot apparently).
I especially like these though
"I remember people who I used to play with back in good old days of EverQuest who migrated to WoW with me back around 2004-2005. Within months they had changed completely. They were too busy soloing to care about grouping. Why? Because they could — because Blizzard promoted it."
Maybe Blizzard promoted it, maybe it was something else, maybe they didn't like playing with him as much as he thought.
"The lethargic MMO community of 2010 doesn’t have the courage, maturity and will to carry out that kind of public boycott today."
It would be a lot more mature of him to realize not everyone shares his taste in games.
And his idea of a "real cataclysm" is a joke right? I can only hope.
Oki since when WOW has the monopole of the MMO industry? Because the only way Blizzard could have stopped the evolution of MMO is by getting a Full monopole. In every market in the world the key to succes is less expenses for more results, MMOs arent an exeception, Blizzard wont invest millions of dollars into a game that is already succesfull and is a winning card. This Wow bashing article is making me sick. The Market aint ready for innovation because the customers buys the low tech/quality crap, so we get some really bad games that finds a way to survive. Blizzard has made his role into innovation, perhaps they will make a new step foward after cataclism but now they and I dont see the point doing it. Other Studios must take the lead to force other majors to step up with them, but from what I see none has tried to do so since WOW.
MMO is a MARKET not a philosophy, and when you are in a market you need to make money, if the market requires innovation believe me producers will find a way to make some. For now, like it or not, Blizzard is just the best Market player.
I will add to that, that I would really like to see innovation going, from whoever does it, CCP perhaps with WoDO, but each time a Cryptic studio puts a STO on the market, MMO market just gets 5 years back in time.
The only power we got as customers is the power to buy or not to buy. If none buys a game (even if its a Star trek or Star wars or other nice name )the producers will have to make market check and quality checks prior to lauch date to see if it will get cash in their wallet.
this was my reply to the article... ill probaly get cut off by moderators.
Shame on you for acting like you had a good, in-depth read.
what about it was so amazing? sounded like a normal "WoW killed my parents" thread.