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The fear of F2P
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I respect your opinion and graciously disagree.
Not all F2P games are second rate. I'll agree that some are thrown together and labeled as an 'MMO' when in fact it is garbage. The same thing could be said for browser-based RPG/MMO games. F2P is merely a different way to present a game to consumers. Now I don't agree that all games should become F2P (like LoTRO, yikes) but I do think that games like DDO make a good argument for the fact that a fun-to-play, polished, full-of-content MMO does not have to be P2P. While most of us who play for the fun of it (for the love of the game, baby!) the endgame for companies that develop MMOs is revenue. It's like buying a car or anything else. I buy a car that profits me by taking me to work and everywhere else I need to go. After a few years, I need a new one. That's kind of how dev companies look at an MMO. Build it, market it, sell it, make moola, cancel it when it becomes dead weight, come out with something new.
insanex
But you can't get the Celestial Steed through gameplay. It can only be bought. Which means that anyone who would like it, but would rather earn it through actually playing the game is basically screwed.
Believe it or not, there are people who would do whatever quest chain they had to in order to obtain something like that. So why not offer that option? There are people whose finances can't justify an additional $25 for a single in-game item. They have no choice but to do without, even if they would like to have one. That's the problem I have with it: It's in-game content that's unobtainable by playing the game.
There's a rare mount... The Winterspring Frostsaber I think it's called. It's rare because it has a rather involved quest line to complete to acquire. The difference is... Everyone has the ability to get that if they choose. No extra charge involved. No worries about if you can afford an additional $25 on top of the $15 sub fee. Just play the game, do the quests... and it's yours. As it should be. Even the people who don't have a lot of time to play can get one, it just would take them a little longer. It's a matter of making a choice.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Advantages of F2P over P2P:
May save a game from being shutdown because the P2P simply wasn't working for it.
Allows casual players to pay for content as they go, rather than paying for all content to be unlocked at once.
Will probably increase developer's overall revenue (in the hybrid option) and give them more money to invest in content updates and future MMO releases.
Developers would be more inclined to release content updates and mini-expansions more quickly (as "adventure packs") adding to the rate a game receives new content.
Brings in a new player base who wouldn't be interested in playing the game otherwise (for example, I had no interest in even trying LOTRO before, now I will try it). Gets more people interested in the game overall. This goes beyond the trial, since people are more likely to try a game out if it's completely free because their investment is only time - if you play a trial and your trial runs out your investment is lost.
To be fair, I will list a few more disadvantages of F2P:
Overall quality of the community is diminished, since it brings in more kids who can't afford a MMO subscription, as well as people who are less invested in the game. (Bans have less of an effect for instance)
Server loads will be increased by a lot. Turbine will be forced to put up and maintain more servers to handle the huge increase in players.
There is a huge gap between paying and non-paying players which breeds elitism.
I'd also like to debate a few of your points on advantages of P2P over F2P:
It's in the developers' interest to keep improving, and building on the game to retain subscribers, unlike F2P games where there is more money in holding back content so that players will be willing to pay for anything new put into the game.
I actually think it's in the developer's interest to keep improving and building on the game no matter the payment method. F2P games don't benefit from holding back content. They need a constant stream of new content even moreso than P2P, because new content means more money for them. Actually P2P games fall prey to this more often, because there is a benefit to holding back content... for the expansion. Microtransactions allow for new content to be put out more frequently, so instead of it being held back for months to put into the newest expansion you'll see it when it's complete so the developers can make money off it immediately.
Predictable expense for players, predictable income for developers. Makes planning ahead easier.
Subscriptions are far from a predictable expense. You never know how many people are going to cancel their subscriptions for that month. Releasing a patch that racially nerfs a class or content or whatever, or any change could cause a backlash in subscription rates.
Your getting to fixated on what constitutes a "real" gamer. Its an issue of semantics that arguing about won't solve.
I think we can agree that a respectable portion of gamers DO believe that time is the only investment that should be made in an MMO, as such a furure of ONLY F2P games is abhorrent to us. Can't there be great games of both buisness models just like there are great sci/fi mmos and great fantasy mmos? Of course were freaking out, it seems like every in devlopment title is going F2P and now even older titles are suddenly switching models midstream.
Uh from this?
@Edli: Since you "real gamers" fancy yourselves as better than the rest of us
Anyway time is a major factor in mmo but that's a different discussion. Peoples who don't have the time should maybe choose different kind of games something I'm considering too. Unless the developers come up with a different aproach in the future. F2p inbalanced games where instead of achieving something you have to buy it are not a solution though.
"Anyway time is a major factor in mmo but that's a different discussion. Peoples who don't have the time should maybe choose different kind of games"
i smell so much ignorance its hurting my nose
EDIT: not that im a fan of F2P models as theyre mostly nowadays but there are games like DDO that arent pay to win imo ... if you can invest time invest if you can invest money play p2win game nobody is forcing you to play such games so you dont have to be ignorant and think that time is the only thing people should mostly invest into games and that you have the one only ultimate truth ....
At least explain why. Did you put something there?
I......I don't even understand what you are trying to convey here. Are you saying that in order to play MMOs, you have to be willing to put them first and maximize play-time?
The "rented character" thing makes sense for any MMO.
The hotel room with tv and breakfast...........I missed something there.
Air bags? WTF
And I've not stated that 15$ a month is too much to pay; although, I have let some subs lapse because I wasn't getting my monies worth IMO. And I understand that F2P games are meant to make money with the shop. Just like us going to work everyday: we do it for the money.
A point I was trying to make in my post is that people complain that i can pay more in a F2P game to be competitive, but don't care if I have to pay more in a P2P game to be competitive based on my hours played.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
edited...and yeah i suck at english so excuse me if there are some major mistakes
I know the consnesus even amoung those who dislike f2p is that the title thread is wrong but I think it has a place.
I fear f2p and my reason is simple, where is the direction of mmo's with this model? In market place of p2p games the devs have only a single aim when creating their games, to make them more fun, more engrosing, to give the worlds they create a life, simply to make their game better than the others on the market.
With f2p I simply do not feel that this will be the over riding gaol on creating a game. I know they still need to compete and make a good game but it no longer needs to have better crafting mechanics, it doen't need to give better pvp mechanics, it doesn't even need to be more fun it just needs to match what is there and then improve on the aspects which will generate more income for them. Hide the ways in which the game will force players to buy items and the game will be more successful.
I know p2p titles aren't there for the love of the player, they are there as products to generate income for the devs but the methodology behind obtaining more income from the two models is completely different, you only need to look at FV for proof.
So aside from the arguements about how f2p ruins gameplay or not, I do not like where I see the goals of the genre going with a f2p model. This is one of my hobies, one I've enjoyed for over a decade and I fear this move towards f2p could destroy it.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Yes, you are cheating. You are bribing the game company to let you have something you couldn't (or can't be bothered to) get otherwise.
It does affect me. It makes me sick to my stomach to see people show off stuff they cheated to get. It cheapens the whole gaming experience.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
And if they did, they would soon be selling better quality crafting tools in the cash shop.
Cash shops are a sewer. No matter how carefully you step - you're going to get dirty.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
This is a legitimate arguement, but not really for or against f2p but about the subscription terms. Unfortunately when devs are paying higher and higher initial costs for games there is little (read, absolutely none) chance that they will offer a reduced subscription for the time played. What is far more likely (read, absolutely guaranteed and will most likely happen anyway) is that those playing longer will be paying a higher subscription fee.
Given that you will be paying the same in either case lets try and keep it at the lower costs for as long as possible.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I cut off the rest of his post, as I didn't really agree with most of it, but this last bit is extremely true and wraps up the argument. Developers know they can make more money from F2P changes in the MMO genre, and that's all they care about. If their primary goal is to get paid, the integrity and credibility of their products are instantly called into question. Who's to say that producers won't be shoving MMO's out the door just to keep providing us with built in, walled off mechanics that placate our desire to "achieve" something in our free time, while they make a killing off RMT that allows you to jump said obstacles? Oh wait, they already do.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
if you have to choose between working hard so you can buy an apple ipod or instead buy some cheaper fake in other company.... and i dont have to do this decission ill just buy and ipod and alot of stuff because i can afford it thats like cheating in your opinion ? am i bribing ipod because theyre so expensive ? because thats what you said.... if you cant afford something then you wont buy it in real life
its the same for games if you cant affor a pay to win game you wont be playing it nobody forces you you can play something that is cheaper and more fair to you that doesnt mean other people are cheating because they can afford ipod
Naw, he's doesn't have to go find another thread. Also, calling him names and insulting him does not in any way change the fact that he makes some very valid points.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Oh, give me a break. More exploitative than F2P? That whole payment model is designed, not only to be obscure in whatever manner possible through "tokens" or "points", but to exploit paying customers into returning to the same game and forking over however many microstransactions necessary to achieve what would cost a flat fee, which gives you access to EVERYTHING in a P2P MMO (we've established there are a few P2P that use cashshops). It's pretty obvious just looking at this. If you can't see how F2P is going to be manipulated, as if it weren't already, to dupe unsuspecting players into buying an exorbitant amount of unnecessary virtual bullshit, I'm guessing you also believe that the developer's are pushing F2P to make the "experience better for the customers".
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Seriously, you're going to use that as a good point for the f2p model.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Take it seriously? It's a game for god sake. So spending money in a F2P game is dumb but paying full price for a game and then spending more money every month just for the privelege of being able to play it is intelligent? Yeah right. Nearly all of the P2P mmos are total shit anyway. Where is this extra quality you get by paying monthly for a game you already paid for? F2P games have a right to be second rate games because they are free. What excuse do the P2P games have? As the OP said they arent really that much different to the F2P games.
2 full price single player or multiplayer games that you can play indefinately or 1 crappy mmo which is a badly made online single player game with optional co-op features for 3 months......oh sorry make that 4 months because these mmos very kindly dont charge you for the first month. What a bargain! lol
[Mod Edit]
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
first of all as i said before im not fan of f2p models as theyre popular nowadays but that desnt mean it cant change in the future (DDO example) secondly, it may be a bad example but all i wanted to say that in life there are things you cant afford and you dont go running around calling other people cheaters and hate every company that produces more expensive items than others and you cant afford them
Thats not the developers fault. If people want too speed through the game and not invest in the sub then let them blow cash in the cash shop. If they want to take their time, grind for their gear then they will sub. It might be alot cheaper for the guy using the cash shop if he gets that hooked and dedicates alot more time in the game, Or it might not. Same with the subbed guy.
Also if you wanted to you can easily catch up with your friends using a cash shop if you say, went away for 2 weeks.
If they can squeeze money out of you they will. If you think you can change the way the industry might be going then do something about it. Otherwise embrace the change.
I think it will work with LoTRO, depending turbine still concentrates on bringing new and exciting expansions and not just dedicate itself to Cash Shop.
plus, subbed guys get all the benefits, F2P have to be subbed in order to get the same privilages. i don't even think you can buy subbed privilages in the Cash Shop.
There is no fear we're talking about a freaking game here so how can someone fear a game? Just as stupid as the guy that claimed doubters are somewhat afraid ToR.
Personally I hate the F2P term, because a F2P game is never really F2P more so they are P2W. Paying for items you really don't own (in fact you are renting them from the company as long as you are playing the game) in my mind is cheating and I'm refusing to play such games.
There are reasons for different payment styles, I prefer the P2P I know what I get for 15 $ a month and thats fine. I really really hate hybrid modells and even more so people participating in this. Take the Wow horse as an example:
people that bought it are rightfully labeled as cheaters. Yes its just "fluff" but you did nothing to earn this thing and players that are already paying for the game will never ever have it till the take out their credit card. F2P games are also known for the worst of the worst communities which isn't a big surprise. People don't care if they get banned they just create another toon, redownloading the game with a new IP aso. You also have to keep in mind that this hybrid stuff devs are payed by everyone so my $ are used to create RMT crap? Better use them to create challenging content instead of rmt "fluff".
Another matter of fact is well known: F2P are off less quality just look at Runes of Magic, Allods poor design, wowlike graphics (at some screens its hard to determine which game it is...). Also theres absolutely ZERO customer support.
Don't get me wrong if people like such F2P (p2w) games fine with me but don't come over and use your F2P style supporting hybrid modells you'll soon be labeled as a cheater and kicked from groups, guilds.
[Mod Edit]
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
If you think its cheating and thats the logic you are using, then having friends within the game making you gear for nothing is also cheating becuase how have they earnt it?
Fallacies spread by the anti F2P crowd. DDO is a DX10 capable. Just because you don't like the graphics, doesn't make it crap. LOTRO is also DX10, and I admit, the character models are meh, the environments are gorgeous.
And as far as customer support, I've had nothing but good experiences with Turbine's customer support. Even their Community Managers are friendly and very forthcoming with information.