I don't prefer sticky targeting, but I think they could've added more options for combat rather than just strafing around spamming M1, doesnt require very much combat strategy or thought beyond twitch skills.
Uh... friendly fire PREVENTS the stafing around spamming M1. It's apparent when you see 4 guys all try to melee down one guy, and have all 4 guys all bring each other to less than 20% health.
I was speaking more in terms of 1v1, sorry for not clarifying. It seems like there's nothing to pay attention to besides your health/stam/mana, the target and your cursor.
You also have to figure out THEIR stats in order to know when to put pressure on them, and when you have some breathing space to stat up. Much of Darkfall 1v1 is positioning and out-predicting your opponent.
Terrain also matters because it can facilitate running, and provide cover.
I would hate if Darkfall became too centric on 'skills' and becomes of cooldown or rock-paper-scissors.
I don't prefer sticky targeting, but I think they could've added more options for combat rather than just strafing around spamming M1, doesnt require very much combat strategy or thought beyond twitch skills.
Uh... friendly fire PREVENTS the stafing around spamming M1. It's apparent when you see 4 guys all try to melee down one guy, and have all 4 guys all bring each other to less than 20% health.
I was speaking more in terms of 1v1, sorry for not clarifying. It seems like there's nothing to pay attention to besides your health/stam/mana, the target and your cursor.
You have to think about the same things you would in any 1v1 fight: health, stamina, mana, which spell to use when, which spell to use to counter (if any), when to switch between archery/magic/melee. In addition, you have to think about aiming with all three, plus trajectory for magic and archery, plus distance with archery.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
1) well, what do vets do around noob cities nowadays? Other then griefing noobs?
2) this will not work in DF if a vet can 4-5 shot a noob. Unless guards spawn immediately beside him and 1-2 shot him. Whats the point of a safe zone if a vet can escape the guard? Not so safe of a zone anymore.
I mine around noob cities. They're the only place I've found with 20+ iron nodes around a wilderness bank guarded by a tower.
Guess what, the only competition I have in mining the nodes are Chinese farmers, NOT new players. And I can't kill them! Because if I do, I'll go red, and I won't be able to mine in that area anymore.
More protection would simply mean more Chinese farmers protected by towers.
In addition, in a 10 hour period of mining, I usually only get attacked once.
So, you can't kill them now, and you worry about not being able to kill them later?
More protection (at least what we were talking about in the last 2-3 pages) for noobs only, not farmers. In the worst case scenario, giving more protection for noobs means farmers will have to create a new account once in 10-20-30 (haven't really discussed the exact number yet) hours, instead of 1. Wouldn't it be much easier to take care of the farmers by other means, other then punishing them and a large portion of noobs at the same time?
Plus, if you are worried about becoming red but still want to punish those farmers, just go to your enemy race homelands and kill farmers there.
i really like the concept of DF and i think it's close. but there are still 2 real gamebreakers for me.
1) there is no system of punishment for people who gank/grief others. I'm not saying it shd be prevented completely... heaven forbid... i'm just saying there shd be repercussions more heavy than the ones in place. In eve, there are pirates and griefers but they are in the minority because there are serious repercussions to doing that kinda thing, which means there are areas in eve (hisec) that, while NOT 100% safe, they are safe to a decent point and psople who wish to learn the game can stay there.
2) there's no sticky targeting, this might just be me but i hate accidentally attacking an ally simply because i can't target who i want to target. if sticky targeting is too far, then perhaps a toggle that you could set to make your attacks not hit party/clan members. ya, that'd work, i like that.
if these were in the works, i'm sold on DF and it would be a great compliment to my almost 100% eve diet
1) agreed. The last 2-3 pages we were discussing just that.
2) this is a very touchy subject. While personally I am not for or against it, there are a lot of people that would go nuts over this issues. You will have to present a better reason then accidentally attacking your ally for implementing this idea. A lot of people actually like it for that reason - it means that in a close quarter fights, you don't just spam attack, you gotta take care where you attack.
1. But there's no point in a vet going to that 30% of land, is there? Maybe trade? If there's nothing worth harvesting, and he can't attack any players, then it's useless land. And where's the cut-off for newb vs vet? Sorry, but we're getting into tiered PvP which I don't want in the game.
2. No, even in EVE a vet can attack a newb in high-sec space. They'll just be beaten to a pulp by CONCORD.
1) well, what do vets do around noob cities nowadays? Other then griefing noobs?
2) this will not work in DF if a vet can 4-5 shot a noob. Unless guards spawn immediately beside him and 1-2 shot him. Whats the point of a safe zone if a vet can escape the guard? Not so safe of a zone anymore.
1. What I'm saying is that making 30% of the land useless to vets is not a good idea at all. Vets can bank, harvest, craft and help out newbs if they want. Or attack them if they want. That's the great thing about it. It allows that freedom. Tiered PvP starts segregating the gamers and taking away bits of freedom currently available. Let vets gank newbs or anyone in safe zones if they want, but make them pay for it.
2. What guards? I'm talking about guard towers, not guards. In EVE it doesn't take long at all for a vet to kill a newb in their newby frigate. They will almost always be able to kill them before Concord shows up. The deal is that once Concord does show up, they're toast. Also, they are flagged as an aggressor and lose some freedom in high-sec space. Read up on EVE high-sec, kill rights and Concord. It's really well thought out.
So if you have to have a "safe zone" in DF, here's how I'd do it:
a. Increase the number of guard towers around newb cities and nearby areas and increase their range and power.
b. Have guard towers around or near some (not all) newb mob spawns like gobs and trolls to make it easier to get your initial skill gains. a and b together would not equal more than 10% of the game world.
c. If a vet attacks someone (newb or vet) in a safe zone, he's flagged as an aggressor and is KOS by the guard towers at any safe zone, even if they attacked someone at another safe zone and somehow got away. that will make it much harder for a newb ganker to go from zone to zone picking off newbs. they can get rid of their "aggressor" or red status by killing enemy faction players outside of safe zones, which should mean more challenging PvP fights to regain blue.
d. They can be fully looted if they are killed by guard towers in the safe zone, which is another incentive not to gank people in safe zones. You lose your shit.
That would need to be fleshed out more and fine-tunes I'm sure, but that's the general gist of how I would approach safe zones in DF.
1) So how does a safe zone suddenly makes it a useless zone for a vet?
It does not. You even suggest the same thing in your 2) except that you use the number 10% instead of 30% (which was my maximum number and it is negotiable). The only "bad" thing for a vet in a safe zone is that he cannot attack a noob at will there. He can attack noobs ONLY if they attack him first. He can attack vets at will. If we agree upon this definition of a safe zone, then we can move on discussing how much of a safe zone to have and then discuss the definition of a "noob" - when exactly does someone stop being a "noob" and transition to a "vet". Judging from your 2) post, you post a pretty accurate definition of a safe zone, I just don't understand why in 1) you mentioned tiered PvP when my definition of a safe zone is practically the same as yours.
2) as I mentioned earlier, a safe zone in my view is around 10-30% of the world territory. You mentioned a 10% number. While I would like to have a larger area, I would try DF if it had a 10% safe area. Maybe it would work for me and a bunch of other noobs.
a,b,c,d - I agree with all of those.
About guards spawning - what I meant is if DF would of implement the same concept of Eve high sec zone and if that zone would be large, then instead of building a lot more guard towers to cover that area, it would be easier to have "guards" spawn at the offender doing the same job as a guard tower would of done. It would of just made the devs job easier, I think. Its not an issue for me so whatever they deside is fine with me.
I cannot for the life of me see why people are still banging on about increased safe zones. DF is not EVE, it is nothing like EVE, EVE's mechanics (which btw do not prevent noobs getting ganked in hisec) will not translate across to DF as a perfect fit as there are major differences between the two. Making the guard towers and actual threat, or adding some guard npcs may work admittedly.
Second of all, how many games out there offer FFA full loot pvp? Some people actually like the threat of pvp, even when starting out, that a couple of people in this thread seem to be wanting to pretty much remove the only game of this type from the mmo-scape is ludicrous. If someone is getting constantly farmed they are either on a run of very, very bad luck and are quitting early, or they are doing something badly wrong. For those who don't want to run the threat of being killed at all, there are plenty of other mmos to play.
I hate to break this to some people, but a game with safe zones and then pvp is not an ffa pvp game, it is tantamount to a zonal pvp game. DF is a ffa pvp game, if that is the element of the game which doesn't appeal to you then I suggest you look elsewhere.
There are many issues with DF and many things that need changing, a skill cap, offline skilling up, specialization and more world content. But the pvp mechanics of the game are set for the people who actually, you know, want ffa pvp from the start. If thats not your thing then wishing that the fundamental mechanics of one of the few ffa games out there changes seems somewhat off to me.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
1. But there's no point in a vet going to that 30% of land, is there? Maybe trade? If there's nothing worth harvesting, and he can't attack any players, then it's useless land. And where's the cut-off for newb vs vet? Sorry, but we're getting into tiered PvP which I don't want in the game.
2. No, even in EVE a vet can attack a newb in high-sec space. They'll just be beaten to a pulp by CONCORD.
1) well, what do vets do around noob cities nowadays? Other then griefing noobs?
2) this will not work in DF if a vet can 4-5 shot a noob. Unless guards spawn immediately beside him and 1-2 shot him. Whats the point of a safe zone if a vet can escape the guard? Not so safe of a zone anymore.
1. What I'm saying is that making 30% of the land useless to vets is not a good idea at all. Vets can bank, harvest, craft and help out newbs if they want. Or attack them if they want. That's the great thing about it. It allows that freedom. Tiered PvP starts segregating the gamers and taking away bits of freedom currently available. Let vets gank newbs or anyone in safe zones if they want, but make them pay for it.
2. What guards? I'm talking about guard towers, not guards. In EVE it doesn't take long at all for a vet to kill a newb in their newby frigate. They will almost always be able to kill them before Concord shows up. The deal is that once Concord does show up, they're toast. Also, they are flagged as an aggressor and lose some freedom in high-sec space. Read up on EVE high-sec, kill rights and Concord. It's really well thought out.
So if you have to have a "safe zone" in DF, here's how I'd do it:
a. Increase the number of guard towers around newb cities and nearby areas and increase their range and power.
b. Have guard towers around or near some (not all) newb mob spawns like gobs and trolls to make it easier to get your initial skill gains. a and b together would not equal more than 10% of the game world.
c. If a vet attacks someone (newb or vet) in a safe zone, he's flagged as an aggressor and is KOS by the guard towers at any safe zone, even if they attacked someone at another safe zone and somehow got away. that will make it much harder for a newb ganker to go from zone to zone picking off newbs. they can get rid of their "aggressor" or red status by killing enemy faction players outside of safe zones, which should mean more challenging PvP fights to regain blue.
d. They can be fully looted if they are killed by guard towers in the safe zone, which is another incentive not to gank people in safe zones. You lose your shit.
That would need to be fleshed out more and fine-tunes I'm sure, but that's the general gist of how I would approach safe zones in DF.
1) So how does a safe zone suddenly makes it a useless zone for a vet?
It does not. You even suggest the same thing in your 2) except that you use the number 10% instead of 30% (which was my maximum number and it is negotiable). The only "bad" thing for a vet in a safe zone is that he cannot attack a noob at will there. He can attack noobs ONLY if they attack him first. He can attack vets at will. If we agree upon this definition of a safe zone, then we can move on discussing how much of a safe zone to have and then discuss the definition of a "noob" - when exactly does someone stop being a "noob" and transition to a "vet". Judging from your 2) post, you post a pretty accurate definition of a safe zone, I just don't understand why in 1) you mentioned tiered PvP when my definition of a safe zone is practically the same as yours.
2) as I mentioned earlier, a safe zone in my view is around 10-30% of the world territory. You mentioned a 10% number. While I would like to have a larger area, I would try DF if it had a 10% safe area. Maybe it would work for me and a bunch of other noobs.
a,b,c,d - I agree with all of those.
About guards spawning - what I meant is if DF would of implement the same concept of Eve high sec zone and if that zone would be large, then instead of building a lot more guard towers to cover that area, it would be easier to have "guards" spawn at the offender doing the same job as a guard tower would of done. It would of just made the devs job easier, I think. Its not an issue for me so whatever they deside is fine with me.
1. I don't mean to say a safe zone in general is useless to a vet. Useless is not really the right word, it's too strong. Limited is closer to it. The usefulness will be diminished. Your idea for a safe zone limits the decisions players can make. And it's not even uniform, it limits the decisions vets can make. Don't forget, >FFA< PvP is one of the core foundations of DF. If a vet can't PvP in a safe zone with anyone at any time, then it's not truly FFA PvP. If you limit FFA PvP on 1/3 of the game world then you've fundamentally altered the core of the game. Even 10% with your idea is too much.
Your idea is not the same as mine because of one major detail: i think both newbs and vets should be able to attack anyone anywhere if they want. You are saying they can't do that unless a newb attacks them first. That's a form of tiered PvP in my mind (and yours according to an earlier post) which limits the decisions a person can make in the game. My idea doesn't limit the decisions a person can make, it only adds consequences to those decisions. That's a HUGE difference.
You even stated in one of your posts the following:
"the core of DF problems that prevent me from enjoying the game NOT the grind alone, but how one player can dictate his own will towards another"
Your idea of a vet not being able to attack a newb is exactly that. You are dictating your will onto them. The results are the same, just different parameters. My idea does not limit anyone.
2. They already have guard towers in the game. They don't have roaming NPC groups of guards. It would be easier to add more towers and tweak with their numbers than to code coordinated PvP roaming and behavior for fights. You're right that towers wouldn't be the best solution if the safe zones were large, but I don't want large safe zones. My idea for safe zones wouldn't require that many new towers.
Really though, that issue is not worth debating since either one would do the job and really depends on the resources and time AV would want to put into it. Which neither of us know.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
1. But there's no point in a vet going to that 30% of land, is there? Maybe trade? If there's nothing worth harvesting, and he can't attack any players, then it's useless land. And where's the cut-off for newb vs vet? Sorry, but we're getting into tiered PvP which I don't want in the game.
2. No, even in EVE a vet can attack a newb in high-sec space. They'll just be beaten to a pulp by CONCORD.
1) well, what do vets do around noob cities nowadays? Other then griefing noobs?
2) this will not work in DF if a vet can 4-5 shot a noob. Unless guards spawn immediately beside him and 1-2 shot him. Whats the point of a safe zone if a vet can escape the guard? Not so safe of a zone anymore.
1. What I'm saying is that making 30% of the land useless to vets is not a good idea at all. Vets can bank, harvest, craft and help out newbs if they want. Or attack them if they want. That's the great thing about it. It allows that freedom. Tiered PvP starts segregating the gamers and taking away bits of freedom currently available. Let vets gank newbs or anyone in safe zones if they want, but make them pay for it.
2. What guards? I'm talking about guard towers, not guards. In EVE it doesn't take long at all for a vet to kill a newb in their newby frigate. They will almost always be able to kill them before Concord shows up. The deal is that once Concord does show up, they're toast. Also, they are flagged as an aggressor and lose some freedom in high-sec space. Read up on EVE high-sec, kill rights and Concord. It's really well thought out.
So if you have to have a "safe zone" in DF, here's how I'd do it:
a. Increase the number of guard towers around newb cities and nearby areas and increase their range and power.
b. Have guard towers around or near some (not all) newb mob spawns like gobs and trolls to make it easier to get your initial skill gains. a and b together would not equal more than 10% of the game world.
c. If a vet attacks someone (newb or vet) in a safe zone, he's flagged as an aggressor and is KOS by the guard towers at any safe zone, even if they attacked someone at another safe zone and somehow got away. that will make it much harder for a newb ganker to go from zone to zone picking off newbs. they can get rid of their "aggressor" or red status by killing enemy faction players outside of safe zones, which should mean more challenging PvP fights to regain blue.
d. They can be fully looted if they are killed by guard towers in the safe zone, which is another incentive not to gank people in safe zones. You lose your shit.
That would need to be fleshed out more and fine-tunes I'm sure, but that's the general gist of how I would approach safe zones in DF.
1) So how does a safe zone suddenly makes it a useless zone for a vet?
It does not. You even suggest the same thing in your 2) except that you use the number 10% instead of 30% (which was my maximum number and it is negotiable). The only "bad" thing for a vet in a safe zone is that he cannot attack a noob at will there. He can attack noobs ONLY if they attack him first. He can attack vets at will. If we agree upon this definition of a safe zone, then we can move on discussing how much of a safe zone to have and then discuss the definition of a "noob" - when exactly does someone stop being a "noob" and transition to a "vet". Judging from your 2) post, you post a pretty accurate definition of a safe zone, I just don't understand why in 1) you mentioned tiered PvP when my definition of a safe zone is practically the same as yours.
2) as I mentioned earlier, a safe zone in my view is around 10-30% of the world territory. You mentioned a 10% number. While I would like to have a larger area, I would try DF if it had a 10% safe area. Maybe it would work for me and a bunch of other noobs.
a,b,c,d - I agree with all of those.
About guards spawning - what I meant is if DF would of implement the same concept of Eve high sec zone and if that zone would be large, then instead of building a lot more guard towers to cover that area, it would be easier to have "guards" spawn at the offender doing the same job as a guard tower would of done. It would of just made the devs job easier, I think. Its not an issue for me so whatever they deside is fine with me.
1. I don't mean to say a safe zone in general is useless to a vet. Useless is not really the right word, it's too strong. Limited is closer to it. The usefulness will be diminished. Your idea for a safe zone limits the decisions players can make. And it's not even uniform, it limits the decisions vets can make. Don't forget, >FFA< PvP is one of the core foundations of DF. If a vet can't PvP in a safe zone with anyone at any time, then it's not truly FFA PvP. If you limit FFA PvP on 1/3 of the game world then you've fundamentally altered the core of the game. Even 10% with your idea is too much.
Your logic here is flawed because... DF already HAS safe zone- the NPC city. This is nothing new to DF, you just don't seem to notice it. What I suggest is to increase the area of this "safe place" from within the city to the neighbouring areas.
Your idea is not the same as mine because of one major detail: i think both newbs and vets should be able to attack anyone anywhere if they want. You are saying they can't do that unless a newb attacks them first. That's a form of tiered PvP in my mind (and yours according to an earlier post) which limits the decisions a person can make in the game. My idea doesn't limit the decisions a person can make, it only adds consequences to those decisions. That's a HUGE difference.
You even stated in one of your posts the following:
"the core of DF problems that prevent me from enjoying the game NOT the grind alone, but how one player can dictate his own will towards another"
Your idea of a vet not being able to attack a newb is exactly that. You are dictating your will onto them. The results are the same, just different parameters. My idea does not limit anyone.
My idea of limitation is the hardcoded limitation set by the game itself vs the idea that I am at the mercy of a vet allowing me to play or not by griefing me. My idea is the better kind of limitations, because it is more fair and it applies to everyone. Yours is not so fair as it applies only to the strong/experienced players. A noob will never be able to enforce this limitation.
2. They already have guard towers in the game. They don't have roaming NPC groups of guards. It would be easier to add more towers and tweak with their numbers than to code coordinated PvP roaming and behavior for fights. You're right that towers wouldn't be the best solution if the safe zones were large, but I don't want large safe zones. My idea for safe zones wouldn't require that many new towers.
Really though, that issue is not worth debating since either one would do the job and really depends on the resources and time AV would want to put into it. Which neither of us know.
I believe the issue is worth a debate because if we, and I don't just mean you and I, come to some sort of general consensus, that alone may be enough to bring the issue to attention and you know know - maybe the fix to this issue will be in the next expansion/patch. Even Blizzard listens to what people say and improve the game more or less to what people asked for. I do not see why AV would ignore us, especially if this idea will bring in a considerable amount of fresh blood to the game.
1. I don't mean to say a safe zone in general is useless to a vet. Useless is not really the right word, it's too strong. Limited is closer to it. The usefulness will be diminished. Your idea for a safe zone limits the decisions players can make. And it's not even uniform, it limits the decisions vets can make. Don't forget, >FFA< PvP is one of the core foundations of DF. If a vet can't PvP in a safe zone with anyone at any time, then it's not truly FFA PvP. If you limit FFA PvP on 1/3 of the game world then you've fundamentally altered the core of the game. Even 10% with your idea is too much.
Your logic here is flawed because... DF already HAS safe zone- the NPC city. This is nothing new to DF, you just don't seem to notice it. What I suggest is to increase the area of this "safe place" from within the city to the neighbouring areas.
Your idea is not the same as mine because of one major detail: i think both newbs and vets should be able to attack anyone anywhere if they want. You are saying they can't do that unless a newb attacks them first. That's a form of tiered PvP in my mind (and yours according to an earlier post) which limits the decisions a person can make in the game. My idea doesn't limit the decisions a person can make, it only adds consequences to those decisions. That's a HUGE difference.
You even stated in one of your posts the following:
"the core of DF problems that prevent me from enjoying the game NOT the grind alone, but how one player can dictate his own will towards another"
Your idea of a vet not being able to attack a newb is exactly that. You are dictating your will onto them. The results are the same, just different parameters. My idea does not limit anyone.
My idea of limitation is the hardcoded limitation set by the game itself vs the idea that I am at the mercy of a vet allowing me to play or not by griefing me. My idea is the better kind of limitations, because it is more fair and it applies to everyone. Yours is not so fair as it applies only to the strong/experienced players. A noob will never be able to enforce this limitation.
2. They already have guard towers in the game. They don't have roaming NPC groups of guards. It would be easier to add more towers and tweak with their numbers than to code coordinated PvP roaming and behavior for fights. You're right that towers wouldn't be the best solution if the safe zones were large, but I don't want large safe zones. My idea for safe zones wouldn't require that many new towers.
Really though, that issue is not worth debating since either one would do the job and really depends on the resources and time AV would want to put into it. Which neither of us know.
I believe the issue is worth a debate because if we, and I don't just mean you and I, come to some sort of general consensus, that alone may be enough to bring the issue to attention and you know know - maybe the fix to this issue will be in the next expansion/patch. Even Blizzard listens to what people say and improve the game more or less to what people asked for. I do not see why AV would ignore us, especially if this idea will bring in a considerable amount of fresh blood to the game.
1. Where is the flaw in my logic? Please read what I'm writing. I am talking about your idea for a safe zone, not what's in the game. I'm not suggesting a new kind of safe zone. The safe zone I would live with and the one I've been talking about is just an extension of what exists in the game, but beefed up. More, stronger, farther-reaching guard towers. No restrictions on player decisions. I am also saying the safe zones should include SOME of the area surrounding newb cities, but not more than 10% of the total game world.
You were definitely pitching tiered PvP earlier. A "vet can't attack a newb in the safe zone" is limiting and not what's currently in the game.
2. Are you reading what I'm writing? Because it looks like you're completely misunderstanding what I'm proposing. Your idea is not better and is definitely not universal. It's targeted at vets. How in the world is my idea better for vets and not everyone? If anything, it makes newb hunting much less appealing and much harder to pull off. It expands the safe area for newbs and makes the initial stat/skill gain safer to accomplish. It's not up to the newb to enforce what I'm suggesting. The newb doesn't have to do anything except play the game.
Yes your idea is the game forcing a limitation, but it's still your will that the game enforce this limitation. In effect, the game is enforcing your will on many players. You are wanting to force your will through the game on other players permanently, which to me is much worse than one player forcing his will on you for a time.
It appears there is a fundamental disagreement between us on what FFA PvP is and isn't. I would never agree to any idea of a safe zone that limits FFA PvP.
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
1) well, what do vets do around noob cities nowadays? Other then griefing noobs?
2) this will not work in DF if a vet can 4-5 shot a noob. Unless guards spawn immediately beside him and 1-2 shot him. Whats the point of a safe zone if a vet can escape the guard? Not so safe of a zone anymore.
I mine around noob cities. They're the only place I've found with 20+ iron nodes around a wilderness bank guarded by a tower.
Guess what, the only competition I have in mining the nodes are Chinese farmers, NOT new players. And I can't kill them! Because if I do, I'll go red, and I won't be able to mine in that area anymore.
More protection would simply mean more Chinese farmers protected by towers.
In addition, in a 10 hour period of mining, I usually only get attacked once.
So, you can't kill them now, and you worry about not being able to kill them later?
More protection (at least what we were talking about in the last 2-3 pages) for noobs only, not farmers. In the worst case scenario, giving more protection for noobs means farmers will have to create a new account once in 10-20-30 (haven't really discussed the exact number yet) hours, instead of 1. Wouldn't it be much easier to take care of the farmers by other means, other then punishing them and a large portion of noobs at the same time?
Plus, if you are worried about becoming red but still want to punish those farmers, just go to your enemy race homelands and kill farmers there.
I'm not talking about newbie invul shield. I'm talking about tower protection. So your 10-20-30 instead of 1 hour has nothing to do with this.
I'm saying that unclanned blues already have a good amount of protection. I'm a CLANNED blue and other than Goblin Shaman, I've been attacked only ONCE this week that I've spent near a starter city attempting to mine.
In addition, do tell me how you are you going to differentiate between a noob and a farmer? Skills? Farmers don't have any other than gathering. Stats? They can just delete their character and remake.
And no, I don't want to punish those farmers. I want to mine. Unfortunately, I can't, at least not anywhere I've found a good amount of nodes near a bank. If I kill the farmers, I'd go red, towers would zap me, and the farmers would just respawn and resume mining.
Bigger area of protection would mean more farmers and more empty nodes. Newbs for sure would never be able to mine.
1. Where is the flaw in my logic? Please read what I'm writing. I am talking about your idea for a safe zone, not what's in the game. I'm not suggesting a new kind of safe zone. The safe zone I would live with and the one I've been talking about is just an extension of what exists in the game, but beefed up. More, stronger, farther-reaching guard towers. No restrictions on player decisions. I am also saying the safe zones should include SOME of the area surrounding newb cities, but not more than 10% of the total game world.
You were definitely pitching tiered PvP earlier. A "vet can't attack a newb in the safe zone" is limiting and not what's currently in the game.
2. Are you reading what I'm writing? Because it looks like you're completely misunderstanding what I'm proposing. Your idea is not better and is definitely not universal. It's targeted at vets. How in the world is my idea better for vets and not everyone? If anything, it makes newb hunting much less appealing and much harder to pull off. It expands the safe area for newbs and makes the initial stat/skill gain safer to accomplish. It's not up to the newb to enforce what I'm suggesting. The newb doesn't have to do anything except play the game.
Yes your idea is the game forcing a limitation, but it's still your will that the game enforce this limitation. In effect, the game is enforcing your will on many players. You are wanting to force your will through the game on other players permanently, which to me is much worse than one player forcing his will on you for a time.
It appears there is a fundamental disagreement between us on what FFA PvP is and isn't. I would never agree to any idea of a safe zone that limits FFA PvP.
1) the flaw in your logic is here Don't forget, >FFA< PvP is one of the core foundations of DF. If a vet can't PvP in a safe zone with anyone at any time, then it's not truly FFA PvP.
a-FFA PvP is one of the core foundations of DF.
b-If a vet can't PvP in a safe zone with anyone at any time, then its not trully FFA PvP
a and b are mutually exclusive. If DF is FFA PvP, it cannot have safe zones because of b.
My idea of a safe zone is ALREADY IMPLEMENTED IN DF!!! Do you understand that? If you are not red, do not belong to a clan that wardeced you AND are located in NPC city, then you are protected by the guard towers. I wan't the same system to be not only in the city, but also in the surrounding noob areas. I already mentioned that I would go with your system of safe zones and that the only thing that differed between your idea of a safe zone and mine is the percentage of the area that would be affected by this safe zone. Just like in Eve, you CAN get attacked in a safe zone, but you will be punished so severely that this will most likely stop 99% of griefing. I loged about 1000-2000 hours playing Eve and not only have i not being griefed, I never got ganked once.
To be absolute clear what I mean "vet can't attack a newb in the safe zone" does not mean he is physically unable to attack due to the game mechanics. It means if takes 5 hits to kill a noob, it takes 3-4 shots for the guard towers to kill that vet (excluding the situation where noob attacked u first, or he belongs to an enemy clan). I can live with this kind of safe zone, it is essencially the same system that Eve has and I never had a problem with it in Eve.
2) misunderstanding on our parts. I hope I cleared it up in 1.
I'm not talking about newbie invul shield. I'm talking about tower protection. So your 10-20-30 instead of 1 hour has nothing to do with this.
I'm saying that unclanned blues already have a good amount of protection. I'm a CLANNED blue and other than Goblin Shaman, I've been attacked only ONCE this week that I've spent near a starter city attempting to mine.
In addition, do tell me how you are you going to differentiate between a noob and a farmer? Skills? Farmers don't have any other than gathering. Stats? They can just delete their character and remake.
And no, I don't want to punish those farmers. I want to mine. Unfortunately, I can't, at least not anywhere I've found a good amount of nodes near a bank. If I kill the farmers, I'd go red, towers would zap me, and the farmers would just respawn and resume mining.
Bigger area of protection would mean more farmers and more empty nodes. Newbs for sure would never be able to mine.
Im not sure if my info is old, but last time i played, tower protection has very short range. Basically as soon as I step out of the city, I lose that protection. I couldn't even get to the closest goblin spawn without leaving tower protection. There were some resource nodes within the tower range, but they dried out too fast and it was not really worth trying to camp a resource within the safety zone.
In addition, do tell me how you are you going to differentiate between a noob and a farmer? Skills? Farmers don't have any other than gathering. Stats? They can just delete their character and remake.
yes, stats/skills/time played that should diferrentiate between noobs and farmers. They would have to not only create a new char, but actually create a new account for that. Its not a 100% fix, thats why all games have a problem with farmers. Actually, how about this, if a noob spends Y amount of time harvesting X amount of resources he turns free game for anyone? I mean, noobs don't usually jump into harvesting resources completely ignoring everything else, right?
1. Where is the flaw in my logic? Please read what I'm writing. I am talking about your idea for a safe zone, not what's in the game. I'm not suggesting a new kind of safe zone. The safe zone I would live with and the one I've been talking about is just an extension of what exists in the game, but beefed up. More, stronger, farther-reaching guard towers. No restrictions on player decisions. I am also saying the safe zones should include SOME of the area surrounding newb cities, but not more than 10% of the total game world.
You were definitely pitching tiered PvP earlier. A "vet can't attack a newb in the safe zone" is limiting and not what's currently in the game.
2. Are you reading what I'm writing? Because it looks like you're completely misunderstanding what I'm proposing. Your idea is not better and is definitely not universal. It's targeted at vets. How in the world is my idea better for vets and not everyone? If anything, it makes newb hunting much less appealing and much harder to pull off. It expands the safe area for newbs and makes the initial stat/skill gain safer to accomplish. It's not up to the newb to enforce what I'm suggesting. The newb doesn't have to do anything except play the game.
Yes your idea is the game forcing a limitation, but it's still your will that the game enforce this limitation. In effect, the game is enforcing your will on many players. You are wanting to force your will through the game on other players permanently, which to me is much worse than one player forcing his will on you for a time.
It appears there is a fundamental disagreement between us on what FFA PvP is and isn't. I would never agree to any idea of a safe zone that limits FFA PvP.
1) the flaw in your logic is here Don't forget, >FFA< PvP is one of the core foundations of DF. If a vet can't PvP in a safe zone with anyone at any time, then it's not truly FFA PvP.
a-FFA PvP is one of the core foundations of DF.
b-If a vet can't PvP in a safe zone with anyone at any time, then its not trully FFA PvP
a and b are mutually exclusive. If DF is FFA PvP, it cannot have safe zones because of b.
My idea of a safe zone is ALREADY IMPLEMENTED IN DF!!! Do you understand that? If you are not red, do not belong to a clan that wardeced you AND are located in NPC city, then you are protected by the guard towers. I wan't the same system to be not only in the city, but also in the surrounding noob areas. I already mentioned that I would go with your system of safe zones and that the only thing that differed between your idea of a safe zone and mine is the percentage of the area that would be affected by this safe zone. Just like in Eve, you CAN get attacked in a safe zone, but you will be punished so severely that this will most likely stop 99% of griefing. I loged about 1000-2000 hours playing Eve and not only have i not being griefed, I never got ganked once.
To be absolute clear what I mean "vet can't attack a newb in the safe zone" does not mean he is physically unable to attack due to the game mechanics. It means if takes 5 hits to kill a noob, it takes 3-4 shots for the guard towers to kill that vet (excluding the situation where noob attacked u first, or he belongs to an enemy clan). I can live with this kind of safe zone, it is essencially the same system that Eve has and I never had a problem with it in Eve.
2) misunderstanding on our parts. I hope I cleared it up in 1.
1. There is no flaw in my logic. "Safe zone" is a misnomer and is where we're misunderstanding each other. A better phrase would be "safer zone". EVE's safe zones aren't 100% safe, so they're "safer zones", but people still call them safe zones.
You were clearly pitching for tiered PvP and a different idea from mine in post #182 and several subsequent posts. You mentioned several times that a vet cannot attack a newb in your safe zone without clarifying what you meant. I took what you said literally: a vet cannot attack a newb. This is what I assumed you were pushing for in a safe zone. Up until your last post, you had not clarified your idea.
So we've been debating over something we've essentially been in agreement on for a while...
Current: None Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
1. There is no flaw in my logic. "Safe zone" is a misnomer and is where we're misunderstanding each other. A better phrase would be "safer zone". EVE's safe zones aren't 100% safe, so they're "safer zones", but people still call them safe zones.
You were clearly pitching for tiered PvP and a different idea from mine in post #182 and several subsequent posts. You mentioned several times that a vet cannot attack a newb in your safe zone without clarifying what you meant. I took what you said literally: a vet cannot attack a newb. This is what I assumed you were pushing for in a safe zone. Up until your last post, you had not clarified your idea.
So we've been debating over something we've essentially been in agreement on for a while...
I think you understood my safe zone as a 100% PvP free zone. While that was one of my ideas thrown around, it isn't what I meant. I mean, I cal Eve "safe zone" a safe zone, although it is not a "safe zone". It is more a "safer zone" then a "safe zone". I hope we settled the misunderstanding in regards to the "safe zone".
So we've been debating over something we've essentially been in agreement on for a while...
I'm not talking about newbie invul shield. I'm talking about tower protection. So your 10-20-30 instead of 1 hour has nothing to do with this.
I'm saying that unclanned blues already have a good amount of protection. I'm a CLANNED blue and other than Goblin Shaman, I've been attacked only ONCE this week that I've spent near a starter city attempting to mine.
In addition, do tell me how you are you going to differentiate between a noob and a farmer? Skills? Farmers don't have any other than gathering. Stats? They can just delete their character and remake.
And no, I don't want to punish those farmers. I want to mine. Unfortunately, I can't, at least not anywhere I've found a good amount of nodes near a bank. If I kill the farmers, I'd go red, towers would zap me, and the farmers would just respawn and resume mining.
Bigger area of protection would mean more farmers and more empty nodes. Newbs for sure would never be able to mine.
Im not sure if my info is old, but last time i played, tower protection has very short range. Basically as soon as I step out of the city, I lose that protection. I couldn't even get to the closest goblin spawn without leaving tower protection. There were some resource nodes within the tower range, but they dried out too fast and it was not really worth trying to camp a resource within the safety zone.
In addition, do tell me how you are you going to differentiate between a noob and a farmer? Skills? Farmers don't have any other than gathering. Stats? They can just delete their character and remake.
yes, stats/skills/time played that should diferrentiate between noobs and farmers. They would have to not only create a new char, but actually create a new account for that. Its not a 100% fix, thats why all games have a problem with farmers. Actually, how about this, if a noob spends Y amount of time harvesting X amount of resources he turns free game for anyone? I mean, noobs don't usually jump into harvesting resources completely ignoring everything else, right?
Tower protection has a short range, yes. But don't forget, I'm banking the ores I've mined at... you guessed it, a tower protected bank. Thus, I can't attack the farmers, I'd go red, and I wouldn't be able to mine there any more.
Dude, all this complex mechanics of what makes a newb and what makes a farmer is... stupid. It'll take a bunch of work to code, and people would merely find a way around it. In the end, it's wasted dev time.
And so far I've been bound at a starter city for a week. I remain to have only been attacked by one warred clan, and two people together. I've lost what? A mount? And this is 10 hours of mining a day as well. The farmers have made me lose more time than any "gankers/griefers". Good thing I enjoy playing interrupt wars.
There's no need for any more protections. One can simply move to another city (dwarflands is DEAD silent), or to another spawn. Bassically... don't be a lemming. Stop walking over a cliff over and over again expecting a different, more pleasant, result.
I'm not talking about newbie invul shield. I'm talking about tower protection. So your 10-20-30 instead of 1 hour has nothing to do with this.
I'm saying that unclanned blues already have a good amount of protection. I'm a CLANNED blue and other than Goblin Shaman, I've been attacked only ONCE this week that I've spent near a starter city attempting to mine.
In addition, do tell me how you are you going to differentiate between a noob and a farmer? Skills? Farmers don't have any other than gathering. Stats? They can just delete their character and remake.
And no, I don't want to punish those farmers. I want to mine. Unfortunately, I can't, at least not anywhere I've found a good amount of nodes near a bank. If I kill the farmers, I'd go red, towers would zap me, and the farmers would just respawn and resume mining.
Bigger area of protection would mean more farmers and more empty nodes. Newbs for sure would never be able to mine.
Im not sure if my info is old, but last time i played, tower protection has very short range. Basically as soon as I step out of the city, I lose that protection. I couldn't even get to the closest goblin spawn without leaving tower protection. There were some resource nodes within the tower range, but they dried out too fast and it was not really worth trying to camp a resource within the safety zone.
In addition, do tell me how you are you going to differentiate between a noob and a farmer? Skills? Farmers don't have any other than gathering. Stats? They can just delete their character and remake.
yes, stats/skills/time played that should diferrentiate between noobs and farmers. They would have to not only create a new char, but actually create a new account for that. Its not a 100% fix, thats why all games have a problem with farmers. Actually, how about this, if a noob spends Y amount of time harvesting X amount of resources he turns free game for anyone? I mean, noobs don't usually jump into harvesting resources completely ignoring everything else, right?
Tower protection has a short range, yes. But don't forget, I'm banking the ores I've mined at... you guessed it, a tower protected bank. Thus, I can't attack the farmers, I'd go red, and I wouldn't be able to mine there any more.
Dude, all this complex mechanics of what makes a newb and what makes a farmer is... stupid. It'll take a bunch of work to code, and people would merely find a way around it. In the end, it's wasted dev time.
And so far I've been bound at a starter city for a week. I remain to have only been attacked by one warred clan, and two people together. I've lost what? A mount? And this is 10 hours of mining a day as well. The farmers have made me lose more time than any "gankers/griefers". Good thing I enjoy playing interrupt wars.
There's no need for any more protections. One can simply move to another city (dwarflands is DEAD silent), or to another spawn. Bassically... don't be a lemming. Stop walking over a cliff over and over again expecting a different, more pleasant, result.
We weren't actually discussing adding protection for you or for farmers. We were talking about noobs. Obviously vets do not need any protection.
Originally posted by chaintm I played for 2 months with my clan in this game, in the end it wasn't the pvp that was the issue, it was the blatent hacks
I'm not talking about newbie invul shield. I'm talking about tower protection. So your 10-20-30 instead of 1 hour has nothing to do with this.
I'm saying that unclanned blues already have a good amount of protection. I'm a CLANNED blue and other than Goblin Shaman, I've been attacked only ONCE this week that I've spent near a starter city attempting to mine.
In addition, do tell me how you are you going to differentiate between a noob and a farmer? Skills? Farmers don't have any other than gathering. Stats? They can just delete their character and remake.
And no, I don't want to punish those farmers. I want to mine. Unfortunately, I can't, at least not anywhere I've found a good amount of nodes near a bank. If I kill the farmers, I'd go red, towers would zap me, and the farmers would just respawn and resume mining.
Bigger area of protection would mean more farmers and more empty nodes. Newbs for sure would never be able to mine.
Im not sure if my info is old, but last time i played, tower protection has very short range. Basically as soon as I step out of the city, I lose that protection. I couldn't even get to the closest goblin spawn without leaving tower protection. There were some resource nodes within the tower range, but they dried out too fast and it was not really worth trying to camp a resource within the safety zone.
In addition, do tell me how you are you going to differentiate between a noob and a farmer? Skills? Farmers don't have any other than gathering. Stats? They can just delete their character and remake.
yes, stats/skills/time played that should diferrentiate between noobs and farmers. They would have to not only create a new char, but actually create a new account for that. Its not a 100% fix, thats why all games have a problem with farmers. Actually, how about this, if a noob spends Y amount of time harvesting X amount of resources he turns free game for anyone? I mean, noobs don't usually jump into harvesting resources completely ignoring everything else, right?
Tower protection has a short range, yes. But don't forget, I'm banking the ores I've mined at... you guessed it, a tower protected bank. Thus, I can't attack the farmers, I'd go red, and I wouldn't be able to mine there any more.
Dude, all this complex mechanics of what makes a newb and what makes a farmer is... stupid. It'll take a bunch of work to code, and people would merely find a way around it. In the end, it's wasted dev time.
And so far I've been bound at a starter city for a week. I remain to have only been attacked by one warred clan, and two people together. I've lost what? A mount? And this is 10 hours of mining a day as well. The farmers have made me lose more time than any "gankers/griefers". Good thing I enjoy playing interrupt wars.
There's no need for any more protections. One can simply move to another city (dwarflands is DEAD silent), or to another spawn. Bassically... don't be a lemming. Stop walking over a cliff over and over again expecting a different, more pleasant, result.
We weren't actually discussing adding protection for you or for farmers. We were talking about noobs. Obviously vets do not need any protection.
So there's a big shiny sign above my head announcing that my robe-wearing-ass is a vet? And that makes reds stay away from me?
Otherwise, I don't see how me being a vet (that doesn't have all those fancy magic spells that are "needed" to compete) changes the fact that there are very few gank squad rolling through starter cities and spawns off the beaten path (at least where I'm at).
And you may not want to add protection for farmers, but it is basically impossible to code a system that differentiates between farmers and newbies without either giving the protection to farmers, or taking away protection from newbies.
So there's a big shiny sign above my head announcing that my robe-wearing-ass is a vet? And that makes reds stay away from me?
no, but your shiny armor and a mount might indicate you are a vet. Oh yeah, you not dying in 5 hits is an excellent confirmation you are not dealing with a noob.
Otherwise, I don't see how me being a vet (that doesn't have all those fancy magic spells that are "needed" to compete) changes the fact that there are very few gank squad rolling through starter cities and spawns off the beaten path (at least where I'm at).
You not getting ganked? See previous sentence.
And you may not want to add protection for farmers, but it is basically impossible to code a system that differentiates between farmers and newbies without either giving the protection to farmers, or taking away protection from newbies.
Yes well, I don't care about farmers at this point. I was trying to find a solution to the farmer problems that someone mentioned. Obviously I went over my head with the little knowledge I have (im a noob after all). I care about not getting ganked by vets a lot though.
Noobs don't need more Developer imposed protection. What DarkFall needs is a higher population, a working alignement system, and incentive for all players, new and vets alike, to use NPC Cities. Bringing Veterans back to player cities would allow more players to defend against incoming Pkers. As of now, NPC Cities have only noobs, but no one else while some Veterans come in to gank newbs for Alignement. at no risk.
Solutions like New Player Protection is a band-aid fix on a gunshot wound, and I'm quite happy that AV nerfed it to 1 hour instead of 24. Now if they can work on a better Alignement System, then it might get a little bit more interesting for Newbs.
So there's a big shiny sign above my head announcing that my robe-wearing-ass is a vet? And that makes reds stay away from me?
no, but your shiny armor and a mount might indicate you are a vet. Oh yeah, you not dying in 5 hits is an excellent confirmation you are not dealing with a noob.
Otherwise, I don't see how me being a vet (that doesn't have all those fancy magic spells that are "needed" to compete) changes the fact that there are very few gank squad rolling through starter cities and spawns off the beaten path (at least where I'm at).
You not getting ganked? See previous sentence.
And you may not want to add protection for farmers, but it is basically impossible to code a system that differentiates between farmers and newbies without either giving the protection to farmers, or taking away protection from newbies.
Yes well, I don't care about farmers at this point. I was trying to find a solution to the farmer problems that someone mentioned. Obviously I went over my head with the little knowledge I have (im a noob after all). I care about not getting ganked by vets a lot though.
I'm wearing robes (notice the robe-wearing-ass). I have to be attacked in the first place for someone to get 5 hits on me.
So there's a big shiny sign above my head announcing that my robe-wearing-ass is a vet? And that makes reds stay away from me?
no, but your shiny armor and a mount might indicate you are a vet. Oh yeah, you not dying in 5 hits is an excellent confirmation you are not dealing with a noob.
Otherwise, I don't see how me being a vet (that doesn't have all those fancy magic spells that are "needed" to compete) changes the fact that there are very few gank squad rolling through starter cities and spawns off the beaten path (at least where I'm at).
You not getting ganked? See previous sentence.
And you may not want to add protection for farmers, but it is basically impossible to code a system that differentiates between farmers and newbies without either giving the protection to farmers, or taking away protection from newbies.
Yes well, I don't care about farmers at this point. I was trying to find a solution to the farmer problems that someone mentioned. Obviously I went over my head with the little knowledge I have (im a noob after all). I care about not getting ganked by vets a lot though.
I'm wearing robes (notice the robe-wearing-ass). I have to be attacked in the first place for someone to get 5 hits on me.
Ok. So how does you wearing robes suddenly eliminate the problem that noobs are practically powerless to stop a vet if he starts farming them for rep? with the system DF currently has, a vet is encouraged to farm noobs for rep. There is nothing to stop him from doing it unless another vet decides to intervene.
Noobs don't need more Developer imposed protection. What DarkFall needs is a higher population, a working alignement system, and incentive for all players, new and vets alike, to use NPC Cities. Bringing Veterans back to player cities would allow more players to defend against incoming Pkers. As of now, NPC Cities have only noobs, but no one else while some Veterans come in to gank newbs for Alignement. at no risk.
Solutions like New Player Protection is a band-aid fix on a gunshot wound, and I'm quite happy that AV nerfed it to 1 hour instead of 24. Now if they can work on a better Alignement System, then it might get a little bit more interesting for Newbs.
This might work to some degree. A better alighnment system will have to address vets farming noobs for rep. I wouldn't want to rely on someone to help me out if I am getting griefed.
Comments
You also have to figure out THEIR stats in order to know when to put pressure on them, and when you have some breathing space to stat up. Much of Darkfall 1v1 is positioning and out-predicting your opponent.
Terrain also matters because it can facilitate running, and provide cover.
I would hate if Darkfall became too centric on 'skills' and becomes of cooldown or rock-paper-scissors.
You have to think about the same things you would in any 1v1 fight: health, stamina, mana, which spell to use when, which spell to use to counter (if any), when to switch between archery/magic/melee. In addition, you have to think about aiming with all three, plus trajectory for magic and archery, plus distance with archery.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
So, you can't kill them now, and you worry about not being able to kill them later?
More protection (at least what we were talking about in the last 2-3 pages) for noobs only, not farmers. In the worst case scenario, giving more protection for noobs means farmers will have to create a new account once in 10-20-30 (haven't really discussed the exact number yet) hours, instead of 1. Wouldn't it be much easier to take care of the farmers by other means, other then punishing them and a large portion of noobs at the same time?
Plus, if you are worried about becoming red but still want to punish those farmers, just go to your enemy race homelands and kill farmers there.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
1) agreed. The last 2-3 pages we were discussing just that.
2) this is a very touchy subject. While personally I am not for or against it, there are a lot of people that would go nuts over this issues. You will have to present a better reason then accidentally attacking your ally for implementing this idea. A lot of people actually like it for that reason - it means that in a close quarter fights, you don't just spam attack, you gotta take care where you attack.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
1) So how does a safe zone suddenly makes it a useless zone for a vet?
It does not. You even suggest the same thing in your 2) except that you use the number 10% instead of 30% (which was my maximum number and it is negotiable). The only "bad" thing for a vet in a safe zone is that he cannot attack a noob at will there. He can attack noobs ONLY if they attack him first. He can attack vets at will. If we agree upon this definition of a safe zone, then we can move on discussing how much of a safe zone to have and then discuss the definition of a "noob" - when exactly does someone stop being a "noob" and transition to a "vet". Judging from your 2) post, you post a pretty accurate definition of a safe zone, I just don't understand why in 1) you mentioned tiered PvP when my definition of a safe zone is practically the same as yours.
2) as I mentioned earlier, a safe zone in my view is around 10-30% of the world territory. You mentioned a 10% number. While I would like to have a larger area, I would try DF if it had a 10% safe area. Maybe it would work for me and a bunch of other noobs.
a,b,c,d - I agree with all of those.
About guards spawning - what I meant is if DF would of implement the same concept of Eve high sec zone and if that zone would be large, then instead of building a lot more guard towers to cover that area, it would be easier to have "guards" spawn at the offender doing the same job as a guard tower would of done. It would of just made the devs job easier, I think. Its not an issue for me so whatever they deside is fine with me.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I cannot for the life of me see why people are still banging on about increased safe zones. DF is not EVE, it is nothing like EVE, EVE's mechanics (which btw do not prevent noobs getting ganked in hisec) will not translate across to DF as a perfect fit as there are major differences between the two. Making the guard towers and actual threat, or adding some guard npcs may work admittedly.
Second of all, how many games out there offer FFA full loot pvp? Some people actually like the threat of pvp, even when starting out, that a couple of people in this thread seem to be wanting to pretty much remove the only game of this type from the mmo-scape is ludicrous. If someone is getting constantly farmed they are either on a run of very, very bad luck and are quitting early, or they are doing something badly wrong. For those who don't want to run the threat of being killed at all, there are plenty of other mmos to play.
I hate to break this to some people, but a game with safe zones and then pvp is not an ffa pvp game, it is tantamount to a zonal pvp game. DF is a ffa pvp game, if that is the element of the game which doesn't appeal to you then I suggest you look elsewhere.
There are many issues with DF and many things that need changing, a skill cap, offline skilling up, specialization and more world content. But the pvp mechanics of the game are set for the people who actually, you know, want ffa pvp from the start. If thats not your thing then wishing that the fundamental mechanics of one of the few ffa games out there changes seems somewhat off to me.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
1. I don't mean to say a safe zone in general is useless to a vet. Useless is not really the right word, it's too strong. Limited is closer to it. The usefulness will be diminished. Your idea for a safe zone limits the decisions players can make. And it's not even uniform, it limits the decisions vets can make. Don't forget, >FFA< PvP is one of the core foundations of DF. If a vet can't PvP in a safe zone with anyone at any time, then it's not truly FFA PvP. If you limit FFA PvP on 1/3 of the game world then you've fundamentally altered the core of the game. Even 10% with your idea is too much.
Your idea is not the same as mine because of one major detail: i think both newbs and vets should be able to attack anyone anywhere if they want. You are saying they can't do that unless a newb attacks them first. That's a form of tiered PvP in my mind (and yours according to an earlier post) which limits the decisions a person can make in the game. My idea doesn't limit the decisions a person can make, it only adds consequences to those decisions. That's a HUGE difference.
You even stated in one of your posts the following:
"the core of DF problems that prevent me from enjoying the game NOT the grind alone, but how one player can dictate his own will towards another"
Your idea of a vet not being able to attack a newb is exactly that. You are dictating your will onto them. The results are the same, just different parameters. My idea does not limit anyone.
2. They already have guard towers in the game. They don't have roaming NPC groups of guards. It would be easier to add more towers and tweak with their numbers than to code coordinated PvP roaming and behavior for fights. You're right that towers wouldn't be the best solution if the safe zones were large, but I don't want large safe zones. My idea for safe zones wouldn't require that many new towers.
Really though, that issue is not worth debating since either one would do the job and really depends on the resources and time AV would want to put into it. Which neither of us know.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I believe the issue is worth a debate because if we, and I don't just mean you and I, come to some sort of general consensus, that alone may be enough to bring the issue to attention and you know know - maybe the fix to this issue will be in the next expansion/patch. Even Blizzard listens to what people say and improve the game more or less to what people asked for. I do not see why AV would ignore us, especially if this idea will bring in a considerable amount of fresh blood to the game.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
1. Where is the flaw in my logic? Please read what I'm writing. I am talking about your idea for a safe zone, not what's in the game. I'm not suggesting a new kind of safe zone. The safe zone I would live with and the one I've been talking about is just an extension of what exists in the game, but beefed up. More, stronger, farther-reaching guard towers. No restrictions on player decisions. I am also saying the safe zones should include SOME of the area surrounding newb cities, but not more than 10% of the total game world.
You were definitely pitching tiered PvP earlier. A "vet can't attack a newb in the safe zone" is limiting and not what's currently in the game.
2. Are you reading what I'm writing? Because it looks like you're completely misunderstanding what I'm proposing. Your idea is not better and is definitely not universal. It's targeted at vets. How in the world is my idea better for vets and not everyone? If anything, it makes newb hunting much less appealing and much harder to pull off. It expands the safe area for newbs and makes the initial stat/skill gain safer to accomplish. It's not up to the newb to enforce what I'm suggesting. The newb doesn't have to do anything except play the game.
Yes your idea is the game forcing a limitation, but it's still your will that the game enforce this limitation. In effect, the game is enforcing your will on many players. You are wanting to force your will through the game on other players permanently, which to me is much worse than one player forcing his will on you for a time.
It appears there is a fundamental disagreement between us on what FFA PvP is and isn't. I would never agree to any idea of a safe zone that limits FFA PvP.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
No safe zones in Darkfall. Even npc cities your can be killed.
I'm not talking about newbie invul shield. I'm talking about tower protection. So your 10-20-30 instead of 1 hour has nothing to do with this.
I'm saying that unclanned blues already have a good amount of protection. I'm a CLANNED blue and other than Goblin Shaman, I've been attacked only ONCE this week that I've spent near a starter city attempting to mine.
In addition, do tell me how you are you going to differentiate between a noob and a farmer? Skills? Farmers don't have any other than gathering. Stats? They can just delete their character and remake.
And no, I don't want to punish those farmers. I want to mine. Unfortunately, I can't, at least not anywhere I've found a good amount of nodes near a bank. If I kill the farmers, I'd go red, towers would zap me, and the farmers would just respawn and resume mining.
Bigger area of protection would mean more farmers and more empty nodes. Newbs for sure would never be able to mine.
1) the flaw in your logic is here Don't forget, >FFA< PvP is one of the core foundations of DF. If a vet can't PvP in a safe zone with anyone at any time, then it's not truly FFA PvP.
a-FFA PvP is one of the core foundations of DF.
b-If a vet can't PvP in a safe zone with anyone at any time, then its not trully FFA PvP
a and b are mutually exclusive. If DF is FFA PvP, it cannot have safe zones because of b.
My idea of a safe zone is ALREADY IMPLEMENTED IN DF!!! Do you understand that? If you are not red, do not belong to a clan that wardeced you AND are located in NPC city, then you are protected by the guard towers. I wan't the same system to be not only in the city, but also in the surrounding noob areas. I already mentioned that I would go with your system of safe zones and that the only thing that differed between your idea of a safe zone and mine is the percentage of the area that would be affected by this safe zone. Just like in Eve, you CAN get attacked in a safe zone, but you will be punished so severely that this will most likely stop 99% of griefing. I loged about 1000-2000 hours playing Eve and not only have i not being griefed, I never got ganked once.
To be absolute clear what I mean "vet can't attack a newb in the safe zone" does not mean he is physically unable to attack due to the game mechanics. It means if takes 5 hits to kill a noob, it takes 3-4 shots for the guard towers to kill that vet (excluding the situation where noob attacked u first, or he belongs to an enemy clan). I can live with this kind of safe zone, it is essencially the same system that Eve has and I never had a problem with it in Eve.
2) misunderstanding on our parts. I hope I cleared it up in 1.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Im not sure if my info is old, but last time i played, tower protection has very short range. Basically as soon as I step out of the city, I lose that protection. I couldn't even get to the closest goblin spawn without leaving tower protection. There were some resource nodes within the tower range, but they dried out too fast and it was not really worth trying to camp a resource within the safety zone.
In addition, do tell me how you are you going to differentiate between a noob and a farmer? Skills? Farmers don't have any other than gathering. Stats? They can just delete their character and remake.
yes, stats/skills/time played that should diferrentiate between noobs and farmers. They would have to not only create a new char, but actually create a new account for that. Its not a 100% fix, thats why all games have a problem with farmers. Actually, how about this, if a noob spends Y amount of time harvesting X amount of resources he turns free game for anyone? I mean, noobs don't usually jump into harvesting resources completely ignoring everything else, right?
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
1. There is no flaw in my logic. "Safe zone" is a misnomer and is where we're misunderstanding each other. A better phrase would be "safer zone". EVE's safe zones aren't 100% safe, so they're "safer zones", but people still call them safe zones.
You were clearly pitching for tiered PvP and a different idea from mine in post #182 and several subsequent posts. You mentioned several times that a vet cannot attack a newb in your safe zone without clarifying what you meant. I took what you said literally: a vet cannot attack a newb. This is what I assumed you were pushing for in a safe zone. Up until your last post, you had not clarified your idea.
So we've been debating over something we've essentially been in agreement on for a while...
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN
I think you understood my safe zone as a 100% PvP free zone. While that was one of my ideas thrown around, it isn't what I meant. I mean, I cal Eve "safe zone" a safe zone, although it is not a "safe zone". It is more a "safer zone" then a "safe zone". I hope we settled the misunderstanding in regards to the "safe zone".
So we've been debating over something we've essentially been in agreement on for a while...
Looks like we did, LOL
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Tower protection has a short range, yes. But don't forget, I'm banking the ores I've mined at... you guessed it, a tower protected bank. Thus, I can't attack the farmers, I'd go red, and I wouldn't be able to mine there any more.
Dude, all this complex mechanics of what makes a newb and what makes a farmer is... stupid. It'll take a bunch of work to code, and people would merely find a way around it. In the end, it's wasted dev time.
And so far I've been bound at a starter city for a week. I remain to have only been attacked by one warred clan, and two people together. I've lost what? A mount? And this is 10 hours of mining a day as well. The farmers have made me lose more time than any "gankers/griefers". Good thing I enjoy playing interrupt wars.
There's no need for any more protections. One can simply move to another city (dwarflands is DEAD silent), or to another spawn. Bassically... don't be a lemming. Stop walking over a cliff over and over again expecting a different, more pleasant, result.
We weren't actually discussing adding protection for you or for farmers. We were talking about noobs. Obviously vets do not need any protection.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Hacks were never a huge issue. Hack have not been A NY issue for a very long time.
So there's a big shiny sign above my head announcing that my robe-wearing-ass is a vet? And that makes reds stay away from me?
Otherwise, I don't see how me being a vet (that doesn't have all those fancy magic spells that are "needed" to compete) changes the fact that there are very few gank squad rolling through starter cities and spawns off the beaten path (at least where I'm at).
And you may not want to add protection for farmers, but it is basically impossible to code a system that differentiates between farmers and newbies without either giving the protection to farmers, or taking away protection from newbies.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Noobs don't need more Developer imposed protection. What DarkFall needs is a higher population, a working alignement system, and incentive for all players, new and vets alike, to use NPC Cities. Bringing Veterans back to player cities would allow more players to defend against incoming Pkers. As of now, NPC Cities have only noobs, but no one else while some Veterans come in to gank newbs for Alignement. at no risk.
Solutions like New Player Protection is a band-aid fix on a gunshot wound, and I'm quite happy that AV nerfed it to 1 hour instead of 24. Now if they can work on a better Alignement System, then it might get a little bit more interesting for Newbs.
I'm wearing robes (notice the robe-wearing-ass). I have to be attacked in the first place for someone to get 5 hits on me.
Ok. So how does you wearing robes suddenly eliminate the problem that noobs are practically powerless to stop a vet if he starts farming them for rep? with the system DF currently has, a vet is encouraged to farm noobs for rep. There is nothing to stop him from doing it unless another vet decides to intervene.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
This might work to some degree. A better alighnment system will have to address vets farming noobs for rep. I wouldn't want to rely on someone to help me out if I am getting griefed.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.