I think we could easily end the thread in a peaceful way, if we knew what the definition of the word "touchstone" is in that context.
touchstone [?t?t??st??n]
n
1. a criterion or standard by which judgment is made
2. (Earth Sciences / Minerals) a hard dark siliceous stone, such as basalt or jasper, that is used to test the quality of gold and silver from the colour of the streak they produce on it
Yes, standard quality. WoW is the best MMO of the market even if some people hate it.
Using that logic McDonald's is the best fast food burger joint on the market, even if I think Steak and Shake is much better.
What you don't understand is... that McDonald's food is a great product! It's cheap and tasty and that is the reason why they have restaurants all over the world. The same happens with WoW, it's polished, it's fun and entertaining to some degree... it wouldn't have 12 million people playing it, if it wasn't a good product. And that is exactly what bioware is saying... you people get everything out of context... he never said that SWTOR is a WoW clone!
If you check other interviews you will hear them say several times, that this game is a bioware game and plays like a bioware game. Of course they would be stupid not to look at all the best features of all MMO's out there.
Are we suprised? Im not, the developers of MMOS think that WoW is the Holy grail, they bend themself backwards to copy cat that game, and then they TANK ( WAR, AOC, Champions online, Star Trek the list goes ever on) and are suprised hmm we get 700k box sails and our game drops to below 100k in one month hmm How can this bee? what did we do wrong?
YOU COPIED A GAME THAT EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER HAS PLAYED!!!!!!!!!!
Ps: for all those that say WoW copied other games.. Im talking about the MINDSET here the Thredwheel, the item grind, the Quest till you drop etc... Mini/Max I want BOP stuff, Instanced Battlegrounds, instanced dungeones... Blizzard whent all out here they have created a MONSTER that has derailed the hole genre now for a half a decade...
SWTOR is not a WoW clone, if you people followed this game closely you would know that. It was just a website that got the doctor out of context and tried to add some drama, maybe for a few more clicks. Other websites were at the same panel and none of them wrote what those guys have in their website. And theres interviews in youtube and they never, never talk about WoW... in fact, they say this game plays like a bioware game and that they are innovating in some fronts and improving other stuff.
Are we suprised? Im not, the developers of MMOS think that WoW is the Holy grail, they bend themself backwards to copy cat that game, and then they TANK ( WAR, AOC, Champions online, Star Trek the list goes ever on) and are suprised hmm we get 700k box sails and our game drops to below 100k in one month hmm How can this bee? what did we do wrong?
YOU COPIED A GAME THAT EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER HAS PLAYED!!!!!!!!!!
Ps: for all those that say WoW copied other games.. Im talking about the MINDSET here the Thredwheel, the item grind, the Quest till you drop etc... Mini/Max I want BOP stuff, Instanced Battlegrounds, instanced dungeones... Blizzard whent all out here they have created a MONSTER that has derailed the hole genre now for a half a decade...
SWTOR is not a WoW clone, if you people followed this game closely you would know that. It was just a website that got the doctor out of context and tried to add some drama, maybe for a few more clicks. Other websites were at the same panel and none of them wrote what those guys have in their website. And theres interviews in youtube and they never, never talk about WoW... in fact, they say this game plays like a bioware game and that they are innovating in some fronts and improving other stuff.
Hmm when I see this I will belive it mate... All I see is We have Battlgrounds, we have kill Quests we have 2 fractions we have loked races for Classes, we have levels Bla bla bla I dont want to play a game like that anymore.
I dont want quest I dont want classes I dont want two fractions that cant comunicate with one another... I dont want a special space ship for my class And I dont give a shit about voiced over acting... Now dose this game have anything for me NO! but Im not alone there are a shitload of people out there who feel the same, We have played Quest and raid games untill our Eyes bleed we know them... sitting down and playing another one wont make us happy
Why can you release COD (call of duty) after COD? because you play against other HUMANS.. PvP will keep any game alive long before its tired gameplay has become so boring you know it by heart. CHess has lasted for thousands of years because Guess What you play against another HUMAN oppnent most of the time, because outsmarting him makes the game fun. STORY.. and PVE content can only take you so far. And when evryone and their mother has played the mecanic before they will buy the BOX and unsub after a month.. Trust me.
Statements like these boggle my mind. Blah blah blah blah, my heart is breaking because an MMO is yet again trying to copy WoW.
Enough. Seriously, did you know WoW took alot of what they do off of another game ::gasp:: its called Everquest. Yeah I know it will shatter our very existance, but there was life before WoW. Especially kids that didn't play a MMO before WoW, before MMOs were cool :P. Do you know why they did it? Cause this genre has industry standards...can we say STANDARDS.
So, let us fast forward to over half a decade later. We have whiners by the thousands complaining over and over again how everyone is trying to copy wow. Does the game have quests? Copied WoW. Does the game have gear and gear progression? Copied WoW. Does the game have dungeons and raids? Copied WoW. Does it use the CLASSIC three role system tank/healer/dps? Copied WoW. Get over it. Those are industry standards. Their obviously fun to the masses or WoW wouldn't be so damned popular.
Do you konw why the past few years we have had craptastic MMOs? It isn't cause they strive to be a "WoW clone" it is because they rush out a game before it is polished. It is because they have nothing that is innovative. It is because it jsut isn't fun to play and they don't upkeep content. it is because they hype things up so much that players simply have too high expectations. Oh yeah...it is because when they do try to break the mold, it is either poorly implemented OR people, who come to expect a certain STANDARD (there is that pesky word again), find that it is too different and they don't enjoy it, or it simply finds its nitch audience.
Like it or not, WoW set a bar, and every gaming company worth their salt knows it and strives for it because that is how they make money. For those that are ignorant of this, video game companies are a business and money is always the bottom line.
Now let us count the ways this game will NOT be a copy. yes it will have dungeons, yes it will have class roles, yes there will be gear grinding...so yes, GET OVER IT.
The reasons why I'm excited aobut this game.
1. Pure and simple, you get to play in the Star Wars Universe. This is what made SWG awesome even after Sony screwed up it's system and the only reason why people stayed subscribed to it. Jedi and Sith are cool, leave it at that.
2. If their dialogue system, missions and story are anything like KotOR or Mass Effect, this is oging to be fun. Made even more so in that they are following DCU Online's example in having complete voice overs for all their dialogue. I can't tell you how immersive this is. And for someone that skims other MMO quest text just to get the basics, I actually follow the story when it is all voice over.
3. Player homes/ships I like that I have my own personal base of operation. That it will not only be a trophy and social area, but it will have function and serve as a travel mechanic.
4. Companions: KotOR 's legacy will live on in the game. It will have companions that will allow you to interact and will determine the outcome of yoru own personal quest line. The last is hinted at but even just a fraction of this would be spiffy.
5. Ranged Tanking: That just sounds spiffy
These points are just the ones I know of. How is this a WoW carbon copy. Instead of being a lemming and joining in the chorus of whiners. Do some research. Sure it will have soem WoW mechanics...but let us return to our word of the day: STANDARDS.
Statements like these boggle my mind. Blah blah blah blah, my heart is breaking because an MMO is yet again trying to copy WoW.
Enough. Seriously, did you know WoW took alot of what they do off of another game ::gasp:: its called Everquest. Yeah I know it will shatter our very existance, but there was life before WoW. Especially kids that didn't play a MMO before WoW, before MMOs were cool :P. Do you know why they did it? Cause this genre has industry standards...can we say STANDARDS.
So, let us fast forward to over half a decade later. We have whiners by the thousands complaining over and over again how everyone is trying to copy wow. Does the game have quests? Copied WoW. Does the game have gear and gear progression? Copied WoW. Does the game have dungeons and raids? Copied WoW. Does it use the CLASSIC three role system tank/healer/dps? Copied WoW. Get over it. Those are industry standards. Their obviously fun to the masses or WoW wouldn't be so damned popular.
Do you konw why the past few years we have had craptastic MMOs? It isn't cause they strive to be a "WoW clone" it is because they rush out a game before it is polished. It is because they have nothing that is innovative. It is because it jsut isn't fun to play and they don't upkeep content. it is because they hype things up so much that players simply have too high expectations. Oh yeah...it is because when they do try to break the mold, it is either poorly implemented OR people, who come to expect a certain STANDARD (there is that pesky word again), find that it is too different and they don't enjoy it, or it simply finds its nitch audience.
Like it or not, WoW set a bar, and every gaming company worth their salt knows it and strives for it because that is how they make money. For those that are ignorant of this, video game companies are a business and money is always the bottom line.
Now let us count the ways this game will NOT be a copy. yes it will have dungeons, yes it will have class roles, yes there will be gear grinding...so yes, GET OVER IT.
The reasons why I'm excited aobut this game.
1. Pure and simple, you get to play in the Star Wars Universe. This is what made SWG awesome even after Sony screwed up it's system and the only reason why people stayed subscribed to it. Jedi and Sith are cool, leave it at that.
2. If their dialogue system, missions and story are anything like KotOR or Mass Effect, this is oging to be fun. Made even more so in that they are following DCU Online's example in having complete voice overs for all their dialogue. I can't tell you how immersive this is. And for someone that skims other MMO quest text just to get the basics, I actually follow the story when it is all voice over.
3. Player homes/ships I like that I have my own personal base of operation. That it will not only be a trophy and social area, but it will have function and serve as a travel mechanic.
4. Companions: KotOR 's legacy will live on in the game. It will have companions that will allow you to interact and will determine the outcome of yoru own personal quest line. The last is hinted at but even just a fraction of this would be spiffy.
5. Ranged Tanking: That just sounds spiffy
These points are just the ones I know of. How is this a WoW carbon copy. Instead of being a lemming and joining in the chorus of whiners. Do some research. Sure it will have soem WoW mechanics...but let us return to our word of the day: STANDARDS.
So I say it again, get over it.
Well said.Some of the things that people are whining about are considered standards for MMOs. Might as well call every fast food joint a McDonalds clone if they serve hamburgers and french fries. Though I doubt fans of Burger King or Wendys would agree.
I played WOW and this game sounds NOTHING like WOW. I could play WOW while surfing the internet and listening to my own music because the game just wasn't engaging. If I try to do that with TOR I might make a choice that I don't like which will effect my character forever. I also don't remember having companions in WOW that I could tell to go make me armour,gather or take care of a diplomatic dispute. I don't remember being able to display my items in a ship (or anywhere for that matter seeing as WOW never had player housing.) The list goes on.
The real reason for WoW's success comes from using other MMo's ideas and putting them into a game that actually worked.
1. Alot of MMO's that were out there had countless amounts of bugs, lag and server crashes, rollbacks.
2. WoW was compatible with even the crappest of PC's out then, something alot of MMO's werent. Peoople dont wanna have to get a new PC because 1 game there playing is like a slideshow, some people cant afford that.
3. Kept it simple making balancing issues easier to deal with, whereas other MMO's put too many variables into there combats skills which made them harder to balance.
4. Actually focused on releasing a MMO that can be played hassle free, i.e. few bugs or game breaking problems. So many MMO's produce games that are faulty at launch. Im currently playing Xsyon and that game isnt really ready yet (thought it probably has one of the tinyest production teams so im pretty understanding about it).
5. Made it easy to understand, previous MMO's had steep learning curves, and although they might have had more depth once learned it puts off some people.
6. Apeals to peoples materialism. Really all you get from raiding and pvping is gear, its what the game focuses on. Consumerism (sp) is what civilisation has become, so this game reflects well on how people like getting "new shinies" and chucking away the old ones.
7. Managed to pull off a large target audience of kids and adults due to its relaxed and easy to play approach, with cartoonish stylised graphics and enriched lore.
Truth is that most other MMO's were badly designed and had to many gamebreaking issues (balance, bugs, lack of content) which is why they didnt take bigger market segments.
Really all thats needed is a company that can actually make a MMO sandbox that doesnt have a flawed concept from the get go, isnt riddled with hardware or software issues, accessible for most pcs, has content and a easy learning curve , to break new ground in this doomed genre.
"Blizzard’s World of Warcraft is the touchstone on which BioWare measures its forthcoming Star Wars MMO, The Old Republic.
Speaking on the keynote panel today at the DICE Summit in Vegas, BioWare’s Greg Zeschuk said that the company is following the rules established by Blizzard’s subscription fantasy MMO.
“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""
::groan:: Really? He thinks it is dumb if any game deviates from the WoW model? Oh man I have just lost all hope for SWTOR. He is basically saying it's going to be a WoW clone with a Star Wars skin.
Poor keynote from his part.
What he really meant, or he should, that WOW improved or released some standards, from UI, game mechanics, controls etc. Unfortunly as in Rift and other games, the developers copy more then these standards(for a fast buck), which in the end only hurts their game. Every game is a inspiration of previous ones, with some features new or improved, depending on these features the game will do well, and have a long life, unless they dont bring enough "new" or "improved" things to the table.
Of course many of the players have hardly any eye to distinguish this, so the developers are doing pretty well:)
Some people value advancement and quality, some people value stagnation and mediocrity.
Just because you adore stagnation and medioctity doesnt make you "right", cause if it were up to you we would still live in caves, hurl rocks and charge with sticks cause, you know, that are the "standars".
Thanks God there are people that dont bend over to "standards" and raise their voice against stagnation and mediocrity.
Yah, shoot me wanting for genre to advance, such a sacrilige in your mind, and we must not allow that. Just look at Rift, lol. If it had been made in 1999 it would look, play and feel the same.
We will see about SWTOR, it still can be played as single player, but im not really covinced many people have desire to pay 15$/month for single player game.
TOR will still be something new, because it focus on fun, and especially the kind of fun we get from immersive single player games. Now BW learn what they can from the success of WoW and do their own thing with that knowledge and put it in a mmo setting.
I would be more worried if they didn't take a hard look at what works and what doesn't work, there are plenty of companies that failed at that.
Some people value advancement and quality, some people value stagnation and mediocrity.
Just because you adore stagnation and medioctity doesnt make you "right", cause if it were up to you we would still live in caves, hurl rocks and charge with stics cause, you know, that are the "standars".
Thanks God there are people that dont bend over to "standards" and raise their voice against stagnation and mediocraties.
Yah, shoot me wanting for genre to advance, such a sacrilige in your mind, and we must not allow that. Just look at Rift, lol. If it would have been made in 1999 it would look, play and feel the same.
We will see about SWTOR, it still can be played as single player, but im not really covinced many people have desire to pay 15$/month for single player game.
nice post mate, i am gona quote you on this "Some people value advancement and quality, some people value stagnation and mediocrity." Which is very true, thus we are in the mess on mmo market today, where only indie companies try to bend the standards. This happens because mostly its a bussiness, and less art and inovation like any niche, or business in the world.
Some people value advancement and quality, some people value stagnation and mediocrity.
Just because you adore stagnation and medioctity doesnt make you "right", cause if it were up to you we would still live in caves, hurl rocks and charge with stics cause, you know, that are the "standars".
Thanks God there are people that dont bend over to "standards" and raise their voice against stagnation and mediocraties.
Yah, shoot me wanting for genre to advance, such a sacrilige in your mind, and we must not allow that. Just look at Rift, lol. If it would have been made in 1999 it would look, play and feel the same.
We will see about SWTOR, it still can be played as single player, but im not really covinced many people have desire to pay 15$/month for single player game.
I think you might be misunderstanding whats being said here. It's not that you should do everything exactly the same way. But there are certain ways to do things.
We've seen a few examples of diverting from some standards and they didn't really help the game. Such as making the menus too complicated in FF14. The chat system too hard to use such as in DCUO. These are the kinds of diverisions from standards we don't want. We want working chat. Easy to use menues. Lots of stuff to do and things like that.
As for the game itself? I'd suggest more research on it. Theres multiplayer pretty much all over the place in the game. Such as in the group flash points. The world arcs. The PvP, the crafting system. What most people are mistaking as the single player game is really only one single part of the game. Which is the personal story, thats not the only part of the game. It's a big part yes, but there is so much more to the game beyond that.
As for advancing the genre? well full over is one. It's not the only thing though. Getting people involved in the quest dialog is another. Using your enviroment such as the cover system is another. Another is changing the dungeon based on the choices you make. Another is actually making combat connect. Instead of just two enemies doing their own attack. You actually have people hitting each others lightsabers and attempting to dodge attacks (based on a roll of course).
As well as the enemy AI. If they pull this off well, they could have something on their hands here. Enemies dodging behind cover, using tatics to take you out. That sort of thing.
Theres quite a bit of moving forward in this game, if you desire to look around for it. If you just take the link at face value. You won't see anything new. But then your not really doing the game justice, if you take just one thing and assume the rest.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Well, then they shouldnt really give statements like that, should they?
I know very well what "strenghts" SWTOR has, and from what little info we have MMO part of the game will be exactly as any other in the genre, only innovation they do bring is including 8 single player games within it, and as i said, we will see how it will all work out, im not convinced.
If it will be "something completely different" i will give them gratz, but statements like this from head of BW dont really confirm that.
I want a Star Wars IPO that is well developed and interesting. I dont really give a shit if it is something "new" on a groundbreaking level. I don't even care if my first quest is smacking 5 Ewoks with a mallet (acutally that might be pretty cool).
I'm not looking to SWTOR to reinvent the genre. I LIKE this genre.
What I want is a solid game with a lot of fun involved and some good back story. Bioware WILL deliver that.
1. Make a science fiction game where the player is the star in a new SW adventure. Never mind those who say I hate "solo level up" or something. The game has to feel like an adventure game with the back drop of an MMO.
2. Make it worthwhile to see the next adventure lines and "feel" like a Bobba Fett or act like a young star wars Knight. Deliver the 200 hours quest lines with side quests.
3. the most difficutl part: transform the game from an adventure game to a real MMORPG with an attractive end game so people stay tuned to the world they adventured in.
I have little doubt 1 - 2 could succeed (not as many cut scenes though as in the last games Bioware launched).
The big question is will they succeed in number 3, with enough variation in PVE/PVP/Crafting and very regular upgrades like the episodes in ST.
Number 3 will be a make or break issue.
The new is in the theme (SF) and in the way up to the core MMO system (end game). The end game may even be a gear orientated game, because that's what people like: awards in a world they want to stay in.
1. Make a science fiction game where the player is the star in a new SW adventure. Never mind those who say I hate "solo level up" or something. The game has to feel like an adventure game with the back drop of an MMO.
2. Make it worthwhile to see the next adventure lines and "feel" like a Bobba Fett or act like a young star wars Knight. Deliver the 200 hours quest lines with side quests.
3. the most difficutl part: transform the game from an adventure game to a real MMORPG with an attractive end game so people stay tuned to the world they adventured in.
I have little doubt 1 - 2 could succeed (not as many cut scenes though as in the last games Bioware launched).
The big question is will they succeed in number 3, with enough variation in PVE/PVP/Crafting and very regular upgrades like the episodes in ST.
Number 3 will be a make or break issue.
The new is in the theme (SF) and in the way up to the core MMO system (end game). The end game may even be a gear orientated game, because that's what people like: awards in a world they want to stay in.
3. the most difficutl part: transform the game from an adventure game to a real MMORPG with an attractive end game so people stay tuned to the world they adventured in.
The big question is will they succeed in number 3, with enough variation in PVE/PVP/Crafting and very regular upgrades like the episodes in ST.
This is the key thing: the revamped quest mechanics (which in my eyes is what the whole 'story' aspect is about, translated into game mechanics) can hook and reel people in, if the combat, questing and controls feel and gel right which so far the demo reports seem to indicate they managed to achieve this.
But in every MMO, quests only cover the first 200-300 hours of your MMO experience, namely the leveling part and a bit at level cap. Which is a great way to get people familiar and liking an MMO if this is done right, but still, it's only the first 200-300 hours where an MMO is usually intended to provide far more gaming hours of fun.
It's up to the other game features besides questing and such to provide that MMO fun after leveling and questlines are done.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
1. Make a science fiction game where the player is the star in a new SW adventure. Never mind those who say I hate "solo level up" or something. The game has to feel like an adventure game with the back drop of an MMO.
2. Make it worthwhile to see the next adventure lines and "feel" like a Bobba Fett or act like a young star wars Knight. Deliver the 200 hours quest lines with side quests.
3. the most difficutl part: transform the game from an adventure game to a real MMORPG with an attractive end game so people stay tuned to the world they adventured in.
I have little doubt 1 - 2 could succeed (not as many cut scenes though as in the last games Bioware launched).
The big question is will they succeed in number 3, with enough variation in PVE/PVP/Crafting and very regular upgrades like the episodes in ST.
Number 3 will be a make or break issue.
The new is in the theme (SF) and in the way up to the core MMO system (end game). The end game may even be a gear orientated game, because that's what people like: awards in a world they want to stay in.
From a business perspective it seems doable, from a gamers perspective it sounds like a POS.
3. the most difficutl part: transform the game from an adventure game to a real MMORPG with an attractive end game so people stay tuned to the world they adventured in.
The big question is will they succeed in number 3, with enough variation in PVE/PVP/Crafting and very regular upgrades like the episodes in ST.
This is the key thing: the revamped quest mechanics (which in my eyes is what the whole 'story' aspect is about, translated into game mechanics) can hook and reel people in, if the combat, questing and controls feel and gel right which so far the demo reports seem to indicate they managed to achieve this.
But in every MMO, quests only cover the first 200-300 hours of your MMO experience, namely the leveling part and a bit at level cap. Which is a great way to get people familiar and liking an MMO if this is done right, but still, it's only the first 200-300 hours where an MMO is usually intended to provide far more gaming hours of fun.
It's up to the other game features besides questing and such to provide that MMO fun after leveling and questlines are done.
Yes, if they can deliver in the first part - the newer adventure part - they can hook people to the world. That's a rather important step these days.
Almost all traditonal MMO's begin with "fastest leveling - never mind much story", with speed boosts ignoring everything. That makes for a shallow game, comparable to the very first RPG's: just kill mobs to gain experience, to kill more harder mobs to gain experience. Oh dear we are at the end. Top !
SW can certainly change this by their story telling.
People must have a hook into the world, not gain some levels. Bad recent examples would be Aion, Rift etc...
Then at the end the players have to be so much attached to their character, they can find the world as a backdrop to stay playing without following too scripted stories.
It will be interesting to see if they will make this possible. SF theme is at least fresh to experiment with.
3. the most difficutl part: transform the game from an adventure game to a real MMORPG with an attractive end game so people stay tuned to the world they adventured in.
The big question is will they succeed in number 3, with enough variation in PVE/PVP/Crafting and very regular upgrades like the episodes in ST.
This is the key thing: the revamped quest mechanics (which in my eyes is what the whole 'story' aspect is about, translated into game mechanics) can hook and reel people in, if the combat, questing and controls feel and gel right which so far the demo reports seem to indicate they managed to achieve this.
But in every MMO, quests only cover the first 200-300 hours of your MMO experience, namely the leveling part and a bit at level cap. Which is a great way to get people familiar and liking an MMO if this is done right, but still, it's only the first 200-300 hours where an MMO is usually intended to provide far more gaming hours of fun.
It's up to the other game features besides questing and such to provide that MMO fun after leveling and questlines are done.
Yes, if they can deliver in the first part - the newer adventure part - they can hook people to the world. That's a rather important step these days.
Almost all traditonal MMO's begin with "fastest leveling - never mind much story", with speed boosts ignoring everything. That makes for a shallow game, comparable to the very first RPG's: just kill mobs to gain experience, to kill more harder mobs to gain experience. Oh dear we're are at the end. Top !
SW can certainly change this by their story telling.
People must have a hook into the world, not gain some levels. Bad recent examples would be Aion, Rift etc...
Then at the end the players have to be so much attached to their character, they can find the world as a backdrop to stay playing without following too scripted stories.
It will be interesting to see if they will make this possible. SF theme is at least fresh to experiment.
Case in point, I still have my female Shepard from ME2 (got i think 80 hours on her) that I go to from time to time.
I am on my 10th playthrough but the first one I took through the game is the one I consider my 'canon' and is parked on Illium. There is literally nothing I can do in that save game now (all quests/resources/dlc done) but I still go back to her.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
It's not the WoW is a bad game, it's that people are tired of it. That's why (IMO) people feel like vomitting at the sound of the term "wow-clone". Think about it, if wow was still awesome in people's minds, the term "wow-clone" would be a very welcomed term and a sound of good news. But thats not whats happening, why? We all know WoW is not a bad game, the game is polished, etc.... So why do people hate the others are "cloning" the wow recipe? It's pure and simple, "tired of the same old". People are sick of the pointless gear grind, people are sick of the zerg-fest pvp and people are sick of a bottom of the barrel community.
WoW is a good game, but its old and its the kind of game that you just keep repeating things. So people are sick of it or starting to get sick of it.
Now, in my opinion, copying a design that people are sick and tired of, Im not so sure is a good idea. Yea, statistically WoW is the way to go, but what I think companies are short sighted of, is the fact that WoW is on its way down. WoW peaked a while ago and with the come of Cata, the game is bleeding subs. Would you copy a game design who is on it's way down? Would you use a system that right now, (february 2011) is losing popularity? This is why I think so many (wow-clones) are failing. They just aren't doing anything different and people are tired of the overal idea of wow. And again, the old saying comes in "why play a wow-clone when you can just play wow?" and I agree.
SWG would of been a huge success if it had the polish wow had and it had a lot more profession balance and less bugs.
Vanguard would of been immensly successful if it had the polish wow had, a heck of a lot less lag and a lot less bugs.
The only thing WoW did well, and I believe all games should "clone" is the polish the game lauched with. That's it. A lot of games are lacking this and since they are nothing but wow rip offs, people just keep playing wow. Make a game that is different like SWG or Vanguard, implement the polish and you got a winner. If Rift fails, in my opinion it is more so because it just copied wow in terms of gameplay and less so because its not polished. Rift is polished! But will people want to play Rift when they can just play WoW?
Hmm, I think you're mistaking the opinion on forums like these as being representative for the whole MMORPG playerbase. Which it isn't: sure, there are a number of MMO gamers who have grown sick and tired and overall burnt out on the themepark MMO genre as it's stylised by WoW and others like it.
But still, the themepark MMO's all taken together are the most successful and enjoyed MMO genre so far. Whether MMO gamers are really sick of the format, we'll see with the themepark MMO's that are released this year, how they fare.
I think that a lot of MMO gamers don't mind change, but not change that far that it strays away completely from the themepark MMO (WoW clone) concept. Expecting that MMO gamers en masse will suddenly dive into non-themepark like sandbox MMO's might be expecting too much, and with en masse I mean hundreds of thousands to millions of MMO gamers.
Personally I think a themepark/sandbox hybrid MMO would be the most successful, combining the best elements of both design philosophies.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
OK Jade Empire didnt do so well, but Bioware games overall have been very successful and have gained them a good reputation.
Lets just give them the benefit of the doubt, the games made, no point moping about what could of been, as long as they add more content, and keep alpha classes out, then this should be a enjoyable experience.
I haven't posted on this site in a long time. But after watching this thread, I feel like adding to the mix.
I think everyone on both "sides" should stop jumping to conclusions until you have played it. Don't worry about it what it does and does not do, or what it copies. Just wait for Beta and then decide if it is fun. Doesn't have to be innovative, if you are having fun along the way.
I don't care who makes it, and I don' t care what IP spawned it. I am going to try it, just like I try every single game that comes out...this way, I avoid cheating myself out of some surprising titles that are fun.
"Blizzard’s World of Warcraft is the touchstone on which BioWare measures its forthcoming Star Wars MMO, The Old Republic.
Speaking on the keynote panel today at the DICE Summit in Vegas, BioWare’s Greg Zeschuk said that the company is following the rules established by Blizzard’s subscription fantasy MMO.
“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""
::groan:: Really? He thinks it is dumb if any game deviates from the WoW model? Oh man I have just lost all hope for SWTOR. He is basically saying it's going to be a WoW clone with a Star Wars skin.
I am actually more excited about swtor now..... sandbox ftl
Comments
What you don't understand is... that McDonald's food is a great product! It's cheap and tasty and that is the reason why they have restaurants all over the world. The same happens with WoW, it's polished, it's fun and entertaining to some degree... it wouldn't have 12 million people playing it, if it wasn't a good product. And that is exactly what bioware is saying... you people get everything out of context... he never said that SWTOR is a WoW clone!
If you check other interviews you will hear them say several times, that this game is a bioware game and plays like a bioware game. Of course they would be stupid not to look at all the best features of all MMO's out there.
SWTOR is not a WoW clone, if you people followed this game closely you would know that. It was just a website that got the doctor out of context and tried to add some drama, maybe for a few more clicks. Other websites were at the same panel and none of them wrote what those guys have in their website. And theres interviews in youtube and they never, never talk about WoW... in fact, they say this game plays like a bioware game and that they are innovating in some fronts and improving other stuff.
Hmm when I see this I will belive it mate... All I see is We have Battlgrounds, we have kill Quests we have 2 fractions we have loked races for Classes, we have levels Bla bla bla I dont want to play a game like that anymore.
I dont want quest I dont want classes I dont want two fractions that cant comunicate with one another... I dont want a special space ship for my class And I dont give a shit about voiced over acting... Now dose this game have anything for me NO! but Im not alone there are a shitload of people out there who feel the same, We have played Quest and raid games untill our Eyes bleed we know them... sitting down and playing another one wont make us happy
Why can you release COD (call of duty) after COD? because you play against other HUMANS.. PvP will keep any game alive long before its tired gameplay has become so boring you know it by heart. CHess has lasted for thousands of years because Guess What you play against another HUMAN oppnent most of the time, because outsmarting him makes the game fun. STORY.. and PVE content can only take you so far. And when evryone and their mother has played the mecanic before they will buy the BOX and unsub after a month.. Trust me.
Statements like these boggle my mind. Blah blah blah blah, my heart is breaking because an MMO is yet again trying to copy WoW.
Enough. Seriously, did you know WoW took alot of what they do off of another game ::gasp:: its called Everquest. Yeah I know it will shatter our very existance, but there was life before WoW. Especially kids that didn't play a MMO before WoW, before MMOs were cool :P. Do you know why they did it? Cause this genre has industry standards...can we say STANDARDS.
So, let us fast forward to over half a decade later. We have whiners by the thousands complaining over and over again how everyone is trying to copy wow. Does the game have quests? Copied WoW. Does the game have gear and gear progression? Copied WoW. Does the game have dungeons and raids? Copied WoW. Does it use the CLASSIC three role system tank/healer/dps? Copied WoW. Get over it. Those are industry standards. Their obviously fun to the masses or WoW wouldn't be so damned popular.
Do you konw why the past few years we have had craptastic MMOs? It isn't cause they strive to be a "WoW clone" it is because they rush out a game before it is polished. It is because they have nothing that is innovative. It is because it jsut isn't fun to play and they don't upkeep content. it is because they hype things up so much that players simply have too high expectations. Oh yeah...it is because when they do try to break the mold, it is either poorly implemented OR people, who come to expect a certain STANDARD (there is that pesky word again), find that it is too different and they don't enjoy it, or it simply finds its nitch audience.
Like it or not, WoW set a bar, and every gaming company worth their salt knows it and strives for it because that is how they make money. For those that are ignorant of this, video game companies are a business and money is always the bottom line.
Now let us count the ways this game will NOT be a copy. yes it will have dungeons, yes it will have class roles, yes there will be gear grinding...so yes, GET OVER IT.
The reasons why I'm excited aobut this game.
1. Pure and simple, you get to play in the Star Wars Universe. This is what made SWG awesome even after Sony screwed up it's system and the only reason why people stayed subscribed to it. Jedi and Sith are cool, leave it at that.
2. If their dialogue system, missions and story are anything like KotOR or Mass Effect, this is oging to be fun. Made even more so in that they are following DCU Online's example in having complete voice overs for all their dialogue. I can't tell you how immersive this is. And for someone that skims other MMO quest text just to get the basics, I actually follow the story when it is all voice over.
3. Player homes/ships I like that I have my own personal base of operation. That it will not only be a trophy and social area, but it will have function and serve as a travel mechanic.
4. Companions: KotOR 's legacy will live on in the game. It will have companions that will allow you to interact and will determine the outcome of yoru own personal quest line. The last is hinted at but even just a fraction of this would be spiffy.
5. Ranged Tanking: That just sounds spiffy
These points are just the ones I know of. How is this a WoW carbon copy. Instead of being a lemming and joining in the chorus of whiners. Do some research. Sure it will have soem WoW mechanics...but let us return to our word of the day: STANDARDS.
So I say it again, get over it.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
The real reason for WoW's success comes from using other MMo's ideas and putting them into a game that actually worked.
1. Alot of MMO's that were out there had countless amounts of bugs, lag and server crashes, rollbacks.
2. WoW was compatible with even the crappest of PC's out then, something alot of MMO's werent. Peoople dont wanna have to get a new PC because 1 game there playing is like a slideshow, some people cant afford that.
3. Kept it simple making balancing issues easier to deal with, whereas other MMO's put too many variables into there combats skills which made them harder to balance.
4. Actually focused on releasing a MMO that can be played hassle free, i.e. few bugs or game breaking problems. So many MMO's produce games that are faulty at launch. Im currently playing Xsyon and that game isnt really ready yet (thought it probably has one of the tinyest production teams so im pretty understanding about it).
5. Made it easy to understand, previous MMO's had steep learning curves, and although they might have had more depth once learned it puts off some people.
6. Apeals to peoples materialism. Really all you get from raiding and pvping is gear, its what the game focuses on. Consumerism (sp) is what civilisation has become, so this game reflects well on how people like getting "new shinies" and chucking away the old ones.
7. Managed to pull off a large target audience of kids and adults due to its relaxed and easy to play approach, with cartoonish stylised graphics and enriched lore.
Truth is that most other MMO's were badly designed and had to many gamebreaking issues (balance, bugs, lack of content) which is why they didnt take bigger market segments.
Really all thats needed is a company that can actually make a MMO sandbox that doesnt have a flawed concept from the get go, isnt riddled with hardware or software issues, accessible for most pcs, has content and a easy learning curve , to break new ground in this doomed genre.
I was hoping it would be something blue, but borrowed is also fine.
Poor keynote from his part.
What he really meant, or he should, that WOW improved or released some standards, from UI, game mechanics, controls etc. Unfortunly as in Rift and other games, the developers copy more then these standards(for a fast buck), which in the end only hurts their game. Every game is a inspiration of previous ones, with some features new or improved, depending on these features the game will do well, and have a long life, unless they dont bring enough "new" or "improved" things to the table.
Of course many of the players have hardly any eye to distinguish this, so the developers are doing pretty well:)
See COD series or WOW addons, or etc...
Some people value advancement and quality, some people value stagnation and mediocrity.
Just because you adore stagnation and medioctity doesnt make you "right", cause if it were up to you we would still live in caves, hurl rocks and charge with sticks cause, you know, that are the "standars".
Thanks God there are people that dont bend over to "standards" and raise their voice against stagnation and mediocrity.
Yah, shoot me wanting for genre to advance, such a sacrilige in your mind, and we must not allow that. Just look at Rift, lol. If it had been made in 1999 it would look, play and feel the same.
We will see about SWTOR, it still can be played as single player, but im not really covinced many people have desire to pay 15$/month for single player game.
TOR will still be something new, because it focus on fun, and especially the kind of fun we get from immersive single player games. Now BW learn what they can from the success of WoW and do their own thing with that knowledge and put it in a mmo setting.
I would be more worried if they didn't take a hard look at what works and what doesn't work, there are plenty of companies that failed at that.
nice post mate, i am gona quote you on this "Some people value advancement and quality, some people value stagnation and mediocrity." Which is very true, thus we are in the mess on mmo market today, where only indie companies try to bend the standards. This happens because mostly its a bussiness, and less art and inovation like any niche, or business in the world.
I think you might be misunderstanding whats being said here. It's not that you should do everything exactly the same way. But there are certain ways to do things.
We've seen a few examples of diverting from some standards and they didn't really help the game. Such as making the menus too complicated in FF14. The chat system too hard to use such as in DCUO. These are the kinds of diverisions from standards we don't want. We want working chat. Easy to use menues. Lots of stuff to do and things like that.
As for the game itself? I'd suggest more research on it. Theres multiplayer pretty much all over the place in the game. Such as in the group flash points. The world arcs. The PvP, the crafting system. What most people are mistaking as the single player game is really only one single part of the game. Which is the personal story, thats not the only part of the game. It's a big part yes, but there is so much more to the game beyond that.
As for advancing the genre? well full over is one. It's not the only thing though. Getting people involved in the quest dialog is another. Using your enviroment such as the cover system is another. Another is changing the dungeon based on the choices you make. Another is actually making combat connect. Instead of just two enemies doing their own attack. You actually have people hitting each others lightsabers and attempting to dodge attacks (based on a roll of course).
As well as the enemy AI. If they pull this off well, they could have something on their hands here. Enemies dodging behind cover, using tatics to take you out. That sort of thing.
Theres quite a bit of moving forward in this game, if you desire to look around for it. If you just take the link at face value. You won't see anything new. But then your not really doing the game justice, if you take just one thing and assume the rest.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Well, then they shouldnt really give statements like that, should they?
I know very well what "strenghts" SWTOR has, and from what little info we have MMO part of the game will be exactly as any other in the genre, only innovation they do bring is including 8 single player games within it, and as i said, we will see how it will all work out, im not convinced.
If it will be "something completely different" i will give them gratz, but statements like this from head of BW dont really confirm that.
I want a Star Wars IPO that is well developed and interesting. I dont really give a shit if it is something "new" on a groundbreaking level. I don't even care if my first quest is smacking 5 Ewoks with a mallet (acutally that might be pretty cool).
I'm not looking to SWTOR to reinvent the genre. I LIKE this genre.
What I want is a solid game with a lot of fun involved and some good back story. Bioware WILL deliver that.
3 conditions for SW to succeed.
1. Make a science fiction game where the player is the star in a new SW adventure. Never mind those who say I hate "solo level up" or something. The game has to feel like an adventure game with the back drop of an MMO.
2. Make it worthwhile to see the next adventure lines and "feel" like a Bobba Fett or act like a young star wars Knight. Deliver the 200 hours quest lines with side quests.
3. the most difficutl part: transform the game from an adventure game to a real MMORPG with an attractive end game so people stay tuned to the world they adventured in.
I have little doubt 1 - 2 could succeed (not as many cut scenes though as in the last games Bioware launched).
The big question is will they succeed in number 3, with enough variation in PVE/PVP/Crafting and very regular upgrades like the episodes in ST.
Number 3 will be a make or break issue.
The new is in the theme (SF) and in the way up to the core MMO system (end game). The end game may even be a gear orientated game, because that's what people like: awards in a world they want to stay in.
You mean, bait&switch?
This is the key thing: the revamped quest mechanics (which in my eyes is what the whole 'story' aspect is about, translated into game mechanics) can hook and reel people in, if the combat, questing and controls feel and gel right which so far the demo reports seem to indicate they managed to achieve this.
But in every MMO, quests only cover the first 200-300 hours of your MMO experience, namely the leveling part and a bit at level cap. Which is a great way to get people familiar and liking an MMO if this is done right, but still, it's only the first 200-300 hours where an MMO is usually intended to provide far more gaming hours of fun.
It's up to the other game features besides questing and such to provide that MMO fun after leveling and questlines are done.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
From a business perspective it seems doable, from a gamers perspective it sounds like a POS.
Yes, if they can deliver in the first part - the newer adventure part - they can hook people to the world. That's a rather important step these days.
Almost all traditonal MMO's begin with "fastest leveling - never mind much story", with speed boosts ignoring everything. That makes for a shallow game, comparable to the very first RPG's: just kill mobs to gain experience, to kill more harder mobs to gain experience. Oh dear we are at the end. Top !
SW can certainly change this by their story telling.
People must have a hook into the world, not gain some levels. Bad recent examples would be Aion, Rift etc...
Then at the end the players have to be so much attached to their character, they can find the world as a backdrop to stay playing without following too scripted stories.
It will be interesting to see if they will make this possible. SF theme is at least fresh to experiment with.
Case in point, I still have my female Shepard from ME2 (got i think 80 hours on her) that I go to from time to time.
I am on my 10th playthrough but the first one I took through the game is the one I consider my 'canon' and is parked on Illium. There is literally nothing I can do in that save game now (all quests/resources/dlc done) but I still go back to her.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
It's not the WoW is a bad game, it's that people are tired of it. That's why (IMO) people feel like vomitting at the sound of the term "wow-clone". Think about it, if wow was still awesome in people's minds, the term "wow-clone" would be a very welcomed term and a sound of good news. But thats not whats happening, why? We all know WoW is not a bad game, the game is polished, etc.... So why do people hate the others are "cloning" the wow recipe? It's pure and simple, "tired of the same old". People are sick of the pointless gear grind, people are sick of the zerg-fest pvp and people are sick of a bottom of the barrel community.
WoW is a good game, but its old and its the kind of game that you just keep repeating things. So people are sick of it or starting to get sick of it.
Now, in my opinion, copying a design that people are sick and tired of, Im not so sure is a good idea. Yea, statistically WoW is the way to go, but what I think companies are short sighted of, is the fact that WoW is on its way down. WoW peaked a while ago and with the come of Cata, the game is bleeding subs. Would you copy a game design who is on it's way down? Would you use a system that right now, (february 2011) is losing popularity? This is why I think so many (wow-clones) are failing. They just aren't doing anything different and people are tired of the overal idea of wow. And again, the old saying comes in "why play a wow-clone when you can just play wow?" and I agree.
SWG would of been a huge success if it had the polish wow had and it had a lot more profession balance and less bugs.
Vanguard would of been immensly successful if it had the polish wow had, a heck of a lot less lag and a lot less bugs.
The only thing WoW did well, and I believe all games should "clone" is the polish the game lauched with. That's it. A lot of games are lacking this and since they are nothing but wow rip offs, people just keep playing wow. Make a game that is different like SWG or Vanguard, implement the polish and you got a winner. If Rift fails, in my opinion it is more so because it just copied wow in terms of gameplay and less so because its not polished. Rift is polished! But will people want to play Rift when they can just play WoW?
Hmm, I think you're mistaking the opinion on forums like these as being representative for the whole MMORPG playerbase. Which it isn't: sure, there are a number of MMO gamers who have grown sick and tired and overall burnt out on the themepark MMO genre as it's stylised by WoW and others like it.
But still, the themepark MMO's all taken together are the most successful and enjoyed MMO genre so far. Whether MMO gamers are really sick of the format, we'll see with the themepark MMO's that are released this year, how they fare.
I think that a lot of MMO gamers don't mind change, but not change that far that it strays away completely from the themepark MMO (WoW clone) concept. Expecting that MMO gamers en masse will suddenly dive into non-themepark like sandbox MMO's might be expecting too much, and with en masse I mean hundreds of thousands to millions of MMO gamers.
Personally I think a themepark/sandbox hybrid MMO would be the most successful, combining the best elements of both design philosophies.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
OK Jade Empire didnt do so well, but Bioware games overall have been very successful and have gained them a good reputation.
Lets just give them the benefit of the doubt, the games made, no point moping about what could of been, as long as they add more content, and keep alpha classes out, then this should be a enjoyable experience.
I haven't posted on this site in a long time. But after watching this thread, I feel like adding to the mix.
I think everyone on both "sides" should stop jumping to conclusions until you have played it. Don't worry about it what it does and does not do, or what it copies. Just wait for Beta and then decide if it is fun. Doesn't have to be innovative, if you are having fun along the way.
I don't care who makes it, and I don' t care what IP spawned it. I am going to try it, just like I try every single game that comes out...this way, I avoid cheating myself out of some surprising titles that are fun.
Try to be more objective, it won't kill you.
I am actually more excited about swtor now..... sandbox ftl