I think we could easily end the thread in a peaceful way, if we knew what the definition of the word "touchstone" is in that context.
touchstone [?t?t??st??n]
n
1. a criterion or standard by which judgment is made
2. (Earth Sciences / Minerals) a hard dark siliceous stone, such as basalt or jasper, that is used to test the quality of gold and silver from the colour of the streak they produce on it
Yes, standard quality. WoW is the best MMO of the market even if some people hate it.
Co-founder Greg Zeschuk of BioWare has said at the DICE summit in Las Vegas that MMO developers must take critical lessons from World of Warcraft.
That's because if we have standards in the genre, "WoW established them." It's a"touchstone" for BioWare's Star Wars: The Old Republic.
"It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb," Greg Zeschuk said at the conference.
"If you have established standards, WoW established them." Huge triple-A projects are still viable these days despite the rise of social gaming. He cited the Warcraft franchise at Blizzard as an example of success, particularly World of Warcraft.
"Bigger does work. Big has worked and frankly, WoW is the biggest."
"On a pure revenue basis it's probably the biggest game ever by a country mile. It generates so much revenue it's an incredible international business unto itself. How do we compete with that? It's an interesting challenge," continued the BioWare boss.
"In some ways they cracked this market wide open. Obviously Star Wars is a very big licence and it's something that when done right - and it's something we did right with KOTOR (Knights of the Old Republic) years ago - it's an incredible force multiplier on your efforts. We've added things so that anyone that plays it knows it's a BioWare game."
"It's not like we're actually going out there to beat anyone, we're going out to place. The audience will tell us if we have a place," wrapped up Zeschuk.
For your viewing pleasure
"It's not like we're actually going out there to beat anyone, we're going out to place.
This quote also doesn't sit well with me. I have nothing against Bioware personally and If this isn't how the whole company feels about things then so much the better. But that quote is tells me that they really aren't trying as hard as they could with this game. You're really not supposed to go out and try to take first, but you're also not supposed to go out and say that you know your not going to take first so you decided that second or third is just fine. What they are supposed to do is design the game as best as they are able.
I will reiterate what I said before, I really hope that what Zeschuk said is only his personal opinion and not how the company as a whole feels about their project.
I think that quote just says they aren't dillusional to think that they're first venture into unknown territory (for them) is going to be a smash success. They don't want to bite off more then they can chew when what they are trying to chew is something new for them. Many companies have to tried to over take wow with little to no success. I think this is being more realistic, we want to make a great game but we don't want to try and tackle the leader, not when we are in it's territory. It knows the land. it knows the layout. it knows how the place runs. We know very little. So we will put our foot in the door and see where it takes us. Much better in my opinion then saying things like we plan to make an MMO that will take this place by storm and destroy the compatition (cuase we know how that normally works out).
This tells me they are level head, understand the field they are in and understand the risks. I prefer that much more then someone who has obscene goals of taking over the world and making an MMO that will destroy the king.
As for the game being good? well i have confidence it will be, based on their past history they've proven to me they know how to make games i will enjoy and apparently that many will enjoy as well.
It's nice that you see things that way, however to me it is basically saying that they could try harder but they won't since it won't really matter. Being a little conservative when you are taking your first foray into unkown territory is alright, but the quote sounds to me like they are not going to bother trying to push the boundaries any and makes it seem like they are under-achievers.
Co-founder Greg Zeschuk of BioWare has said at the DICE summit in Las Vegas that MMO developers must take critical lessons from World of Warcraft.
That's because if we have standards in the genre, "WoW established them." It's a"touchstone" for BioWare's Star Wars: The Old Republic.
"It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb," Greg Zeschuk said at the conference.
"If you have established standards, WoW established them." Huge triple-A projects are still viable these days despite the rise of social gaming. He cited the Warcraft franchise at Blizzard as an example of success, particularly World of Warcraft.
"Bigger does work. Big has worked and frankly, WoW is the biggest."
"On a pure revenue basis it's probably the biggest game ever by a country mile. It generates so much revenue it's an incredible international business unto itself. How do we compete with that? It's an interesting challenge," continued the BioWare boss.
"In some ways they cracked this market wide open. Obviously Star Wars is a very big licence and it's something that when done right - and it's something we did right with KOTOR (Knights of the Old Republic) years ago - it's an incredible force multiplier on your efforts. We've added things so that anyone that plays it knows it's a BioWare game."
"It's not like we're actually going out there to beat anyone, we're going out to place. The audience will tell us if we have a place," wrapped up Zeschuk.
For your viewing pleasure
"It's not like we're actually going out there to beat anyone, we're going out to place.
This quote also doesn't sit well with me. I have nothing against Bioware personally and If this isn't how the whole company feels about things then so much the better. But that quote is tells me that they really aren't trying as hard as they could with this game. You're really not supposed to go out and try to take first, but you're also not supposed to go out and say that you know your not going to take first so you decided that second or third is just fine. What they are supposed to do is design the game as best as they are able.
I will reiterate what I said before, I really hope that what Zeschuk said is only his personal opinion and not how the company as a whole feels about their project.
I think that quote just says they aren't dillusional to think that they're first venture into unknown territory (for them) is going to be a smash success. They don't want to bite off more then they can chew when what they are trying to chew is something new for them. Many companies have to tried to over take wow with little to no success. I think this is being more realistic, we want to make a great game but we don't want to try and tackle the leader, not when we are in it's territory. It knows the land. it knows the layout. it knows how the place runs. We know very little. So we will put our foot in the door and see where it takes us. Much better in my opinion then saying things like we plan to make an MMO that will take this place by storm and destroy the compatition (cuase we know how that normally works out).
This tells me they are level head, understand the field they are in and understand the risks. I prefer that much more then someone who has obscene goals of taking over the world and making an MMO that will destroy the king.
As for the game being good? well i have confidence it will be, based on their past history they've proven to me they know how to make games i will enjoy and apparently that many will enjoy as well.
I normally agree with alot of what Whilan has to say about ToR. This however i have to disagree on.
You can not go into any venture "trying" to be second or third best. It is a buissness and you are in it to make money and in this case your investors as well.
If i was part of this comapny Zeschuks comments would really piss me off.
Now on the flip side of that coin we have all heard people blaring their trumpets that they are the WoW killer ect. So i can understand that Bioware is trying to stay away from that, but at the same time. They (bioware) are in the same place that bliz was when they were creating WoW.
EQ was the big man on campus and they were the team coming in trying to make a name for themselfs. I also understand that EQ in its day had no where near the base that WoW does. But i still fail to see the differance?
I really want to play ToR. I have been like the kid outside the candy store just dreaming of the day and some of those comments give me that bad feeling in the bottom of my stomach.
I look at it more of what made Blizzard such a success? Why did they succed on such huge scales and none of the others (not even one) came even remotely close. What made them succeed?
Was it their level of polish? If so okay we have that.
Was it their accessability to the public? if so okay we have that as well.
Was it the IP? If so okay we have that as well. Maybe even better.
Was it the following? If so okay we have that as well.
What was it that made Blizzard's MMO such a success that nothing within the last 6 years can even get close or dent the numbers. Something right must have happened. So if we want to be successful and give the people what they want then there are certain rules that must be followed. These are the standards or in point of reference wows rule books. Which is a rule book of success.
Granted it's not the best view but i think it's general rules of the gaming genre.
You don't release a game that is inaccesable like FF14 did. That crashed hard.
You don't release bug ridden games with bad graphics. That crashes the game hard.
You get one chance in this genre. One. You can't mess it up. So you figure out what works and go with that. WoW (regardless of what people might say) works. Has worked for more then a half a decade. Will following the rules of WoW work for ToR? hard to say. But Bioware is about to find out.
Basically they are learning from the masters on how to make a game that will bring in money. Thats how you become better, you learn what makes someone great. Then you apply your own touch to it that fixes or replaces what the teacher had. Which is what i think ToR is trying to do. They are trying to figure out what made WoW a success (what these rules are i don't know) and do them, THEN put our own twist on it by bring RPG back into the field and giving more depth to your character then other MMOs do.
It's all about adopting what works and putting your own twist on it to make it even better. It's been done a thousand times before. Just is rarely implemented well in the MMO genre.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
"It's not like we're actually going out there to beat anyone, we're going out to place.
This quote also doesn't sit well with me. I have nothing against Bioware personally and If this isn't how the whole company feels about things then so much the better. But that quote is tells me that they really aren't trying as hard as they could with this game. You're really not supposed to go out and try to take first, but you're also not supposed to go out and say that you know your not going to take first so you decided that second or third is just fine. What they are supposed to do is design the game as best as they are able.
I will reiterate what I said before, I really hope that what Zeschuk said is only his personal opinion and not how the company as a whole feels about their project.
I think that quote just says they aren't dillusional to think that they're first venture into unknown territory (for them) is going to be a smash success. They don't want to bite off more then they can chew when what they are trying to chew is something new for them. Many companies have to tried to over take wow with little to no success. I think this is being more realistic, we want to make a great game but we don't want to try and tackle the leader, not when we are in it's territory. It knows the land. it knows the layout. it knows how the place runs. We know very little. So we will put our foot in the door and see where it takes us. Much better in my opinion then saying things like we plan to make an MMO that will take this place by storm and destroy the compatition (cuase we know how that normally works out).
This tells me they are level head, understand the field they are in and understand the risks. I prefer that much more then someone who has obscene goals of taking over the world and making an MMO that will destroy the king.
As for the game being good? well i have confidence it will be, based on their past history they've proven to me they know how to make games i will enjoy and apparently that many will enjoy as well.
It's nice that you see things that way, however to me it is basically saying that they could try harder but they won't since it won't really matter. Being a little conservative when you are taking your first foray into unkown territory is alright, but the quote sounds to me like they are not going to bother trying to push the boundaries any and makes it seem like they are under-achievers.
Yes it is your own interpretation of the quote but it's no necessariyl the truth(though it could be).Just to make things clear I'm not defending SW:ToR,Bioware or the quotee...I tihnk it was an pretty stupid ,ambiguous to say and the guy probably is catching flak for it as we speak.I'm jsut saying I'm nto gonna make any snap judgements based on this or any quote,I'd rather see and decide for myself.
I look at it more of what made Blizzard such a success? Why did they succed on such huge scales and none of the others (not even one) came even remotely close. What made them succeed?
Was it their level of polish? If so okay we have that.
Was it their accessability to the public? if so okay we have that as well.
Was it the IP? If so okay we have that as well. Maybe even better.
Was it the following? If so okay we have that as well.
What was it that made Blizzard's MMO such a success that nothing within the last 6 years can even get close or dent the numbers. Something right must have happened. So if we want to be successful and give the people what they want then there are certain rules that must be followed. These are the standards or in point of reference wows rule books. Which is a rule book of success.
Granted it's not the best view but i think it's general rules of the gaming genre.
You don't release a game that is inaccesable like FF14 did. That crashed hard.
You don't release bug ridden games with bad graphics. That crashes the game hard.
You get one chance in this genre. One. You can't mess it up. So you figure out what works and go with that. WoW (regardless of what people might say) works. Has worked for more then a half a decade. Will following the rules of WoW work for ToR? hard to say. But Bioware is about to find out.
Basically they are learning from the masters on how to make a game that will bring in money. Thats how you become better, you learn what makes someone great. Then you apply your own touch to it that fixes or replaces what the teacher had. Which is what i think ToR is trying to do. They are trying to figure out what made WoW a success (what these rules are i don't know) and do them, THEN put our own twist on it by bring RPG back into the field and giving more depth to your character then other MMOs do.
It's all about adopting what works and putting your own twist on it to make it even better. It's been done a thousand times before. Just is rarely implemented well in the MMO genre.
as someone that really is wanting this game to be great, loves the IP but tries (and doesnt alwasy manage) to keep a even keel when it somes to this game.
It is a sad day when you hear the devs say we are ok just trying to place..... Really. You dont want to be the best? Becuase i really want you to. I mean, i like WoW. I played it for years, still do. But i would really like ToR to be all that and more. Again i understand BW trying to be politically correct and trying not to go down the same road that many other companies have. But to flat out say you are ok with 2nd best
I've no desire to find justification for what that BW guy was saying, I disagree that straying away from WoW's formula is dumb, there's more than one road that leads to Rome, and the same applies for roads to success; I think that GW2 and EVE Online are good examples that you don't necessarily have to follow the WoW formula.
The guy probably only meant that the things WoW did to reach that kind of success should be taken to heart and learnt from, but even then it was a dumb remark to make like that.
The other guy from the conference meeting, Riccietello, stated it better:
"At half a million subscribers, the game is substantially profitable, but it's not the sort of thing we would write home about. Anything north of one million subscribers is a very profitable business. Essentially it turns on a dime from being quite sharply negative in terms of its EPS [Earnings Per Share] impact to positive the day the product ships. So it's our view that we can be very successful without fundamentally challenging the market leader [World of Warcraft] because we think we'll probably hit the smaller competitors harder when we get out there. Of course, we have no particular ambition to be a distant number two. Our ambitions are higher than that, but we throttle back a little bit relative to our financial projections."
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I've no desire to find justification for what that BW guy was saying, I disagree that straying away from WoW's formula is dumb, there's more than one road that leads to Rome, and the same applies for roads to success; I think that GW2 and EVE Online are good examples that you don't necessarily have to follow the WoW formula.
The guy probably only meant that the things WoW did to reach that kind of success should be taken to heart and learnt from, but even then it was a dumb remark to make like that.
The other guy from the conference meeting, Riccietello, stated it better:
"At half a million subscribers, the game is substantially profitable, but it's not the sort of thing we would write home about. Anything north of one million subscribers is a very profitable business. Essentially it turns on a dime from being quite sharply negative in terms of its EPS [Earnings Per Share] impact to positive the day the product ships. So it's our view that we can be very successful without fundamentally challenging the market leader [World of Warcraft] because we think we'll probably hit the smaller competitors harder when we get out there. Of course, we have no particular ambition to be a distant number two. Our ambitions are higher than that, but we throttle back a little bit relative to our financial projections."
I've no desire to find justification for what that BW guy was saying, I disagree that straying away from WoW's formula is dumb, there's more than one road that leads to Rome, and the same applies for roads to success; I think that GW2 and EVE Online are good examples that you don't necessarily have to follow the WoW formula.
The guy probably only meant that the things WoW did to reach that kind of success should be taken to heart and learnt from, but even then it was a dumb remark to make like that.
The other guy from the conference meeting, Riccietello, stated it better:
"At half a million subscribers, the game is substantially profitable, but it's not the sort of thing we would write home about. Anything north of one million subscribers is a very profitable business. Essentially it turns on a dime from being quite sharply negative in terms of its EPS [Earnings Per Share] impact to positive the day the product ships. So it's our view that we can be very successful without fundamentally challenging the market leader [World of Warcraft] because we think we'll probably hit the smaller competitors harder when we get out there. Of course, we have no particular ambition to be a distant number two. Our ambitions are higher than that, but we throttle back a little bit relative to our financial projections."
So GW2 is not following the WOW formula? Why do people think GW2 is a completely different MMO then what is out now?
"Blizzard’s World of Warcraft is the touchstone on which BioWare measures its forthcoming Star Wars MMO, The Old Republic.
Speaking on the keynote panel today at the DICE Summit in Vegas, BioWare’s Greg Zeschuk said that the company is following the rules established by Blizzard’s subscription fantasy MMO.
“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""
::groan:: Really? He thinks it is dumb if any game deviates from the WoW model? Oh man I have just lost all hope for SWTOR. He is basically saying it's going to be a WoW clone with a Star Wars skin.
NO he is NOT "basically saying it's going to be a WoW clone with a Star Wars skin." You are JUMPING to your Own Conclusion by making that statement. And I can see ways in which SWTOR is not going to be like WoW. For one I'm not sure the combat will be exactly the same. I am guessing this from the fact that I've heard there are lots of skills have long cool downs. And it means you won't just win by going through the same skill rotation every fight.
Also I'm sure that WoW doesn't have the whole companion character feature. Or the same Crafting system. Or the Space Shooter "on rails" that everyone loves to hate without ever even trying it. SWTOR isn't going to have as many classes, or advanced classes. It probably won't have as many races. But it will have full Voice Overs for all the quests.
Now I don't know exactly what Greg Zeschuk was referring to in this statement. But I suspect its things like... It won't have Open World, Full Loot, PvP - instead it will have the equivalent of "battlefields". And I suspect that will have different level "dungeons" which require Raids to complete. And I also expect them to have the whole gear progression that WoW players have found so motivating. Still all of this is pure conjecture. If I knew Greg personally I'd feel compelled to ask him to elucidate further.
So, if what you really want is a PvP FFA game with a "sandbox" format. Perhaps you should try Earthrise. Just don't expect a company like BioWare to try and be too innovative when this is their first MMORPG.
"Blizzard’s World of Warcraft is the touchstone on which BioWare measures its forthcoming Star Wars MMO, The Old Republic.
Speaking on the keynote panel today at the DICE Summit in Vegas, BioWare’s Greg Zeschuk said that the company is following the rules established by Blizzard’s subscription fantasy MMO.
“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""
::groan:: Really? He thinks it is dumb if any game deviates from the WoW model? Oh man I have just lost all hope for SWTOR. He is basically saying it's going to be a WoW clone with a Star Wars skin.
NO he is NOT "basically saying it's going to be a WoW clone with a Star Wars skin." You are JUMPING to your Own Conclusion by making that statement. And I can see ways in which SWTOR is not going to be like WoW. For one I'm not sure the combat will be exactly the same. I am guessing this from the fact that I've heard there are lots of skills have long cool downs. And it means you won't just win by going through the same skill rotation every fight.
Also I'm sure that WoW doesn't have the whole companion character feature. Or the same Crafting system. Or the Space Shooter "on rails" that everyone loves to hate without ever even trying it. SWTOR isn't going to have as many classes, or advanced classes. It probably won't have as many races. But it will have full Voice Overs for all the quests.
Now I don't know exactly what Greg Zeschuk was referring to in this statement. But I suspect its things like... It won't have Open World, Full Loot, PvP - instead it will have the equivalent of "battlefields". And I suspect that will have different level "dungeons" which require Raids to complete. And I also expect them to have the whole gear progression that WoW players have found so motivating. Still all of this is pure conjecture. If I knew Greg personally I'd feel compelled to ask him to elucidate further.
So, if what you really want is a PvP FFA game with a "sandbox" format. Perhaps you should try Earthrise. Just don't expect a company like BioWare to try and be too innovative when this is their first MMORPG.
Read my previous post, theres a link from gamespot. The other articles i've seen on this matter are just bad journalism imo.
Sw:Tor will however be bringing something good to the table and that's Bioware's immense storytelling power. To say Sw:tor is a clone of anything is at best stupid and narrow minded. Yes it's obviousley going to follow a similar pattern to Wow, as Wow was a very successful game, it is however a bland, broad MMO. It does what it does, it doesn't do anything spectacular any more.
The story telling, the IP and the quality that we expect from a Bioware game will set it apart.
LOL defensive much or just rude in general?
Well I hope my statement proves to be stupid and narrow minded, because I'm real tired of the clones and it would be refreshing to see someone break the mold. However after his statement I have less confidence in that.
Aglaranna, Biowares approach is with respect to approach and the scale of Wow and the subs. As far as the game being developed goes that is something totally different. If you feel you are narrow minded well that says something about your honesty.
I see nothing in the write up as vaguely, just someone attention grabbing to get more subs on their forumns.
Bioware will be on a par with Blizzard from a proffessional and approach persepctive, I expect the game to go far beyond WoW in depth and gameplay which is what matters.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Um, I'm a vet gamer having played MMO's from early early on. Sadly enough, MMO's kind of don't strike my fancy anymore due to the repetitive grind and gameplay a 4-5 year old can almost master. That being said, I will not be pre-ordering SW:TOR or any other game for that matter, until I see gameplay videos that look exciting to play.
My hopes are that GW2 will deliver this, but I'm not blindly ordering/buying that either. If SWTOR delivers good, exciting gameply (combat), then I will give them my money gladly and say "thank you for taking my money". If however, I find that quests/storylines consist primarily of "Go X, Kill X, cutscene", sorry my friends... that is not fun.
Blizzard made a game that catered to many, but I am simply not one of them. I also believe there are enough gamers like myself so that if a game company creates an MMO that makes this stale-a$$ genre fun once again... They will strike it rich.
Who the hell cares if it's a WoW-clone... Make it fun for me and I'll pay you my hard-earned money and thank you for it.
I don't really care anymore what they say. Just wish they would release the damn game already. Sick of hearing about :P Will I be buying it regardless of what they say? Yes, I am an old SWG vet and while I know this game will be nothing like the SWG of old, maybe it can recapture a littl of the feeling I had when I played it all those years ago. I've also enjoyed Bioware games in the past, I see no reason why SWTOR wont be fun.
I don't really care if it is not something new, as long as it is in another setting. This is the reason also I couldn't get into Rift, it uses the exact same mechanics as most MMOs and it is still in your generic fantasy setting.
Find me a MMORPG will full cinematic VO and lightsabers, and then I might start thinking that this is the same ol same ol.
Perhaps you don't like MMORPG's? Why do we have to reinvent the wheel, and exactly what are you looking for? I dislike the WoW IP and it's dated cartoony graphics, but the gameplay in WoW itself is good and can even be made better by developers like BW.
Heres the primary reasons people hate WoW.
It did nothing truly new, it reinvented nothing. This is the same argument people have about every MMORPG in existance.
cartoony graphics
piss poor community
EPICS EPICS EPIC, oh whaaa? Their useless with this new patch!
It's WoW
The last bullet is caused by constant exposure to the rest of that list. Constantly plaguing them wherever they go.
Now heres some of the reasons people hate TOR.
Not a sandbox
Voice overs are bad???
Stylized graphics that look more errr, I can't even call it cartoony because if you compare it to WoW it's nothing alike.
People hate star wars
people are looking forward to a new game that isn't TOR
people are reading too much into articles without the game even being released
Now with all respect. Please stop jumping on and off of the bandwaggon so damn fast.
Every game post wow will have elements from wow in it. Why because WoW took elements from every game before it to make the game they made. So in all honesty a game could only have elements from AC, EQ, or UO and people will still say it copied wow. Why because most players know wow, and a vast number of mmo players only know wow, they don't know where wow came from.
This ToR is doing different from WoW, player housing in the form of ships. NPC allies you interact with, send on missions, tell to craft and harvest for you, and lastly get quests from. Active Cover use. As well as a world with a progressive story with consiquences from your choices.
So at the end of the day you got to think of it like this, all cars are cars because they have an engine, wheels, and you drive them with your hands and feet through interacting with the stearing wheel and petals. All mmo's have a graphics engine that determins look and feel, they progress through experience, and you interact with them through a GUI. The differences between one mmo and the other, or one car and the other are what turn it from a clone, to a classic. Or from a clunker to a sports car. Eliminate what is the same from every mmo, then judge each one on the differences in the game.
Price: Unlike cars, video games usually have set prices at 50 usd for normal, and between 80 and 100 usd for collectors. Subs: most are at or around 14.95 usd, unless they have a special founders deal that lets you sub for cheeper.
One past the industry standard stuff we go into how is it different.
Tor: Ships, npc helpers, story driven, better graphics, able to leave grunt work to others while you level, active cover, smaller more casual friendly raids, first venture into mmo's for bioware, limited race/apperence choices. Possibly no mounts.
WoW: Huge raids that take a while to get started, dated graphics, no story choices, no npc helpers aside from pets you summon, no housing, more established game, lots of players, and co-op mounts.
I'm hoping TOR turns out more like KOTOR and Mass Effect and from some videos it looks like it'll have elements of those. However with Zeschuk stating he'd think it's dumb to steer away from the WoW model, that makes me a bit nervous. I'm no fan of WoW clone games, I think the last good MMO was Tablua Rasa which was nothing like WoW in any way but too bad about the feud between Richard Garriot and NCSoft otherwise it would've lasted longer and I probably would've been still playing it. Just about every MMO that TRIES to mimic WoW seems to fail, I'm a huge Star Wars fan and I certainly don't want to see TOR fail that way.
Look folks....You either get wow clone,or an indie suck fest that a minority of players enjoy these days. If you can't handle one or the other, make your own MMO, or find something else to play that isn't an MMO. Stop expecting the world. I'm actaully starting to think most of these complainers don't even know what they want these days.
Look folks....You either get wow clone,or an indie suck fest that a minority of players enjoy these days. If you can't handle one or the other, make your own MMO, or find something else to play that isn't an MMO. Stop expecting the world. I'm actaully starting to think most of these complainers don't even know what they want these days.
I was actually planning to buy World of darkness online and Guildwars 2. Neither of them are Wow clones or indie crap.
I actually don't think TOR will be a Wow clone either, KOTOR is actually published over a year before Wow and TOR is based on it. Sure, they will have the usual MMO stuff added but Wow really didn't invent that anyways, most of it are either from Meridian 59 or Everquest.
In the base it is still KOTOR. If that even work as a MMO or not is anybodys guess but TOR isn't just another Wow clone.
I am not saying that TOR will be a good or bad game, I have no clue if the KOTOR concept work in multiplayer or not, and if the players will stay after the story is done. But a Bioware game is based on conversations, not by people just telling you what to do without choises. If that is better or worse is your call.
Comments
Yes, standard quality. WoW is the best MMO of the market even if some people hate it.
It's nice that you see things that way, however to me it is basically saying that they could try harder but they won't since it won't really matter. Being a little conservative when you are taking your first foray into unkown territory is alright, but the quote sounds to me like they are not going to bother trying to push the boundaries any and makes it seem like they are under-achievers.
I don't like the statements made by this guy. "pretty dumb not to do what wow does?"
I think it is pretty dumb to make these kind of statements.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
I normally agree with alot of what Whilan has to say about ToR. This however i have to disagree on.
You can not go into any venture "trying" to be second or third best. It is a buissness and you are in it to make money and in this case your investors as well.
If i was part of this comapny Zeschuks comments would really piss me off.
Now on the flip side of that coin we have all heard people blaring their trumpets that they are the WoW killer ect. So i can understand that Bioware is trying to stay away from that, but at the same time. They (bioware) are in the same place that bliz was when they were creating WoW.
EQ was the big man on campus and they were the team coming in trying to make a name for themselfs. I also understand that EQ in its day had no where near the base that WoW does. But i still fail to see the differance?
I really want to play ToR. I have been like the kid outside the candy store just dreaming of the day and some of those comments give me that bad feeling in the bottom of my stomach.
Theres many ways to in interpret that quote. But as always people only see the bad things.
I gave up trying to read replies in this thread after skimming three or four that had terrible grammar :X
Also, big words don't make you seem intelligent <.<
I look at it more of what made Blizzard such a success? Why did they succed on such huge scales and none of the others (not even one) came even remotely close. What made them succeed?
Was it their level of polish? If so okay we have that.
Was it their accessability to the public? if so okay we have that as well.
Was it the IP? If so okay we have that as well. Maybe even better.
Was it the following? If so okay we have that as well.
What was it that made Blizzard's MMO such a success that nothing within the last 6 years can even get close or dent the numbers. Something right must have happened. So if we want to be successful and give the people what they want then there are certain rules that must be followed. These are the standards or in point of reference wows rule books. Which is a rule book of success.
Granted it's not the best view but i think it's general rules of the gaming genre.
You don't release a game that is inaccesable like FF14 did. That crashed hard.
You don't release bug ridden games with bad graphics. That crashes the game hard.
You get one chance in this genre. One. You can't mess it up. So you figure out what works and go with that. WoW (regardless of what people might say) works. Has worked for more then a half a decade. Will following the rules of WoW work for ToR? hard to say. But Bioware is about to find out.
Basically they are learning from the masters on how to make a game that will bring in money. Thats how you become better, you learn what makes someone great. Then you apply your own touch to it that fixes or replaces what the teacher had. Which is what i think ToR is trying to do. They are trying to figure out what made WoW a success (what these rules are i don't know) and do them, THEN put our own twist on it by bring RPG back into the field and giving more depth to your character then other MMOs do.
It's all about adopting what works and putting your own twist on it to make it even better. It's been done a thousand times before. Just is rarely implemented well in the MMO genre.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Yes it is your own interpretation of the quote but it's no necessariyl the truth(though it could be).Just to make things clear I'm not defending SW:ToR,Bioware or the quotee...I tihnk it was an pretty stupid ,ambiguous to say and the guy probably is catching flak for it as we speak.I'm jsut saying I'm nto gonna make any snap judgements based on this or any quote,I'd rather see and decide for myself.
as someone that really is wanting this game to be great, loves the IP but tries (and doesnt alwasy manage) to keep a even keel when it somes to this game.
It is a sad day when you hear the devs say we are ok just trying to place..... Really. You dont want to be the best? Becuase i really want you to. I mean, i like WoW. I played it for years, still do. But i would really like ToR to be all that and more. Again i understand BW trying to be politically correct and trying not to go down the same road that many other companies have. But to flat out say you are ok with 2nd best
I don't care if SW:TOR can be considered a WoW clone, as I have faith that SW:TOR will actually be a better game than WoW unlike Rift.
I've no desire to find justification for what that BW guy was saying, I disagree that straying away from WoW's formula is dumb, there's more than one road that leads to Rome, and the same applies for roads to success; I think that GW2 and EVE Online are good examples that you don't necessarily have to follow the WoW formula.
The guy probably only meant that the things WoW did to reach that kind of success should be taken to heart and learnt from, but even then it was a dumb remark to make like that.
The other guy from the conference meeting, Riccietello, stated it better:
"At half a million subscribers, the game is substantially profitable, but it's not the sort of thing we would write home about. Anything north of one million subscribers is a very profitable business. Essentially it turns on a dime from being quite sharply negative in terms of its EPS [Earnings Per Share] impact to positive the day the product ships. So it's our view that we can be very successful without fundamentally challenging the market leader [World of Warcraft] because we think we'll probably hit the smaller competitors harder when we get out there. Of course, we have no particular ambition to be a distant number two. Our ambitions are higher than that, but we throttle back a little bit relative to our financial projections."
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
2nd guy makes me feel alot better.
So GW2 is not following the WOW formula? Why do people think GW2 is a completely different MMO then what is out now?
NO he is NOT "basically saying it's going to be a WoW clone with a Star Wars skin." You are JUMPING to your Own Conclusion by making that statement. And I can see ways in which SWTOR is not going to be like WoW. For one I'm not sure the combat will be exactly the same. I am guessing this from the fact that I've heard there are lots of skills have long cool downs. And it means you won't just win by going through the same skill rotation every fight.
Also I'm sure that WoW doesn't have the whole companion character feature. Or the same Crafting system. Or the Space Shooter "on rails" that everyone loves to hate without ever even trying it. SWTOR isn't going to have as many classes, or advanced classes. It probably won't have as many races. But it will have full Voice Overs for all the quests.
Now I don't know exactly what Greg Zeschuk was referring to in this statement. But I suspect its things like... It won't have Open World, Full Loot, PvP - instead it will have the equivalent of "battlefields". And I suspect that will have different level "dungeons" which require Raids to complete. And I also expect them to have the whole gear progression that WoW players have found so motivating. Still all of this is pure conjecture. If I knew Greg personally I'd feel compelled to ask him to elucidate further.
So, if what you really want is a PvP FFA game with a "sandbox" format. Perhaps you should try Earthrise. Just don't expect a company like BioWare to try and be too innovative when this is their first MMORPG.
Read my previous post, theres a link from gamespot. The other articles i've seen on this matter are just bad journalism imo.
Aglaranna, Biowares approach is with respect to approach and the scale of Wow and the subs. As far as the game being developed goes that is something totally different. If you feel you are narrow minded well that says something about your honesty.
I see nothing in the write up as vaguely, just someone attention grabbing to get more subs on their forumns.
Bioware will be on a par with Blizzard from a proffessional and approach persepctive, I expect the game to go far beyond WoW in depth and gameplay which is what matters.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Um, I'm a vet gamer having played MMO's from early early on. Sadly enough, MMO's kind of don't strike my fancy anymore due to the repetitive grind and gameplay a 4-5 year old can almost master. That being said, I will not be pre-ordering SW:TOR or any other game for that matter, until I see gameplay videos that look exciting to play.
My hopes are that GW2 will deliver this, but I'm not blindly ordering/buying that either. If SWTOR delivers good, exciting gameply (combat), then I will give them my money gladly and say "thank you for taking my money". If however, I find that quests/storylines consist primarily of "Go X, Kill X, cutscene", sorry my friends... that is not fun.
Blizzard made a game that catered to many, but I am simply not one of them. I also believe there are enough gamers like myself so that if a game company creates an MMO that makes this stale-a$$ genre fun once again... They will strike it rich.
Who the hell cares if it's a WoW-clone... Make it fun for me and I'll pay you my hard-earned money and thank you for it.
Rompster
This title and thread is just as new....
I don't really care anymore what they say. Just wish they would release the damn game already. Sick of hearing about :P Will I be buying it regardless of what they say? Yes, I am an old SWG vet and while I know this game will be nothing like the SWG of old, maybe it can recapture a littl of the feeling I had when I played it all those years ago. I've also enjoyed Bioware games in the past, I see no reason why SWTOR wont be fun.
I don't really care if it is not something new, as long as it is in another setting. This is the reason also I couldn't get into Rift, it uses the exact same mechanics as most MMOs and it is still in your generic fantasy setting.
Find me a MMORPG will full cinematic VO and lightsabers, and then I might start thinking that this is the same ol same ol.
Perhaps you don't like MMORPG's? Why do we have to reinvent the wheel, and exactly what are you looking for? I dislike the WoW IP and it's dated cartoony graphics, but the gameplay in WoW itself is good and can even be made better by developers like BW.
Heres the primary reasons people hate WoW.
It did nothing truly new, it reinvented nothing. This is the same argument people have about every MMORPG in existance.
cartoony graphics
piss poor community
EPICS EPICS EPIC, oh whaaa? Their useless with this new patch!
It's WoW
The last bullet is caused by constant exposure to the rest of that list. Constantly plaguing them wherever they go.
Now heres some of the reasons people hate TOR.
Not a sandbox
Voice overs are bad???
Stylized graphics that look more errr, I can't even call it cartoony because if you compare it to WoW it's nothing alike.
People hate star wars
people are looking forward to a new game that isn't TOR
people are reading too much into articles without the game even being released
Now with all respect. Please stop jumping on and off of the bandwaggon so damn fast.
Every game post wow will have elements from wow in it. Why because WoW took elements from every game before it to make the game they made. So in all honesty a game could only have elements from AC, EQ, or UO and people will still say it copied wow. Why because most players know wow, and a vast number of mmo players only know wow, they don't know where wow came from.
This ToR is doing different from WoW, player housing in the form of ships. NPC allies you interact with, send on missions, tell to craft and harvest for you, and lastly get quests from. Active Cover use. As well as a world with a progressive story with consiquences from your choices.
So at the end of the day you got to think of it like this, all cars are cars because they have an engine, wheels, and you drive them with your hands and feet through interacting with the stearing wheel and petals. All mmo's have a graphics engine that determins look and feel, they progress through experience, and you interact with them through a GUI. The differences between one mmo and the other, or one car and the other are what turn it from a clone, to a classic. Or from a clunker to a sports car. Eliminate what is the same from every mmo, then judge each one on the differences in the game.
Price: Unlike cars, video games usually have set prices at 50 usd for normal, and between 80 and 100 usd for collectors. Subs: most are at or around 14.95 usd, unless they have a special founders deal that lets you sub for cheeper.
One past the industry standard stuff we go into how is it different.
Tor: Ships, npc helpers, story driven, better graphics, able to leave grunt work to others while you level, active cover, smaller more casual friendly raids, first venture into mmo's for bioware, limited race/apperence choices. Possibly no mounts.
WoW: Huge raids that take a while to get started, dated graphics, no story choices, no npc helpers aside from pets you summon, no housing, more established game, lots of players, and co-op mounts.
I'm hoping TOR turns out more like KOTOR and Mass Effect and from some videos it looks like it'll have elements of those. However with Zeschuk stating he'd think it's dumb to steer away from the WoW model, that makes me a bit nervous. I'm no fan of WoW clone games, I think the last good MMO was Tablua Rasa which was nothing like WoW in any way but too bad about the feud between Richard Garriot and NCSoft otherwise it would've lasted longer and I probably would've been still playing it. Just about every MMO that TRIES to mimic WoW seems to fail, I'm a huge Star Wars fan and I certainly don't want to see TOR fail that way.
Look folks....You either get wow clone,or an indie suck fest that a minority of players enjoy these days. If you can't handle one or the other, make your own MMO, or find something else to play that isn't an MMO. Stop expecting the world. I'm actaully starting to think most of these complainers don't even know what they want these days.
I was actually planning to buy World of darkness online and Guildwars 2. Neither of them are Wow clones or indie crap.
I actually don't think TOR will be a Wow clone either, KOTOR is actually published over a year before Wow and TOR is based on it. Sure, they will have the usual MMO stuff added but Wow really didn't invent that anyways, most of it are either from Meridian 59 or Everquest.
In the base it is still KOTOR. If that even work as a MMO or not is anybodys guess but TOR isn't just another Wow clone.
I am not saying that TOR will be a good or bad game, I have no clue if the KOTOR concept work in multiplayer or not, and if the players will stay after the story is done. But a Bioware game is based on conversations, not by people just telling you what to do without choises. If that is better or worse is your call.