well at 1st i was turn off by the graphic and decided not to get tor
then in tor forum, they show me how beautiful the world can be and since i'm on the fence with the mission dialog vo and option, i decided "what the heck i'll just order it when it come out and judge for myself"
but this comment on cloning wow just turn me back 180 degree
Jesus, were did he said they are going to clone WoW? man after this comment i think i just lost my faith in the human race.
“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""
He first said they were going to be using it as a touchstone (nothing inherently wrong with doing that) but then he said that it is pretty much a stupid move to deviate from what WoW did (a pretty dumb thing to say IMO).
Yes, still don't see were they say they are cloning WoW?! What he's basically saying is:
WoW is the standard, which is true because it's the best MMO in the market, you can't deny it. You may not like it, but a product that have 12 million playing isn't a bad game.
And he also says "every mmo that comes out, i play it and look at it and if they break the rules thats pretty dumb". The rules hes talking about is the overall quality of the game, the art style is good, the social aspects of the game are good enough, the combat is good, etc etc. He's not saying "WERE GOING TO MAKE SWTOR A CLONE".
I dunno.... I've played a lot of asian mmos that have more subs than WoW and they were pretty terrible. Don't get me wrong I liked WoW but got tired of it. just pointing out a flaw in your thinking.
Are you asian? cause those games are designed for asian people, who just want go grind and that is one of the reasons they love WoW. That is why they are trying to westernize the korean MMO TERA... because the korean version is all about grind.
It wasn't even the grind. That I can deal with.
Yeah, i thought it might be that. I don't like asian MMO of any kind, just he art style keeps me away from them.
I think that would be better directed at Bioware or the guy who decided to say not trying to be different than WoW is stupid.
No, it was directed at the guy who said he won't buy TOR because some blogger said TOR will be "just like WoW". Translated into a non idiotic form of english, that phrase means "like an MMO, but somehow cooler because i think wow is better than sex, jack daniels and fast cars"
I know who it was directed at, I was just saying you it would have been better directed at the arrogant, close-minded developer that thinks WoW is "like an MMO, but somehow cooler because i think wow is better than sex, jack daniels and fast cars". I can't honestly believe that somebody from Bioware (a company that supposedly makes best-selling RPG's) would go so far as to say that WoW has defines the way we play MMO's and that any MMO that tries to be even a little different than WoW is stupid. I really don't think I would want to play a game made by people like that.
WoW clone with a SW skin means millions will purchase, subscribe and enjoy the game.
Sorry to you little "indie" gamers out there who are looking for something totally different that hasn't been seen yet.
Its hilarious how the majority of the haters make suggestions like, "this game should be more like X, or more like Y". yet they bash this game because one of the dev's said they were using WoW as a "touchstone". From a business standpoint in terms of risk, why would you not at least loosely follow the format of the most succesful MMO ever?
WoW deserves respect for what it's accomplished, but it doesn't deserve to be brown-nosed. BioWare is brown-nosing, and it's rather pathetic. I expect much, much more from a development house with BW's pedigree, than calling everything that deviates from the WoW standard, dumb. I expect them to be capable of defining a new standard and hopefully setting the bar higher. But it seems that they're perfectly happy to have the 'rules of MMOs' handed to them instead of leading the way for others.
Baldur's Gate has disappeared BioWare's rear view mirror -- they're abilty to innovate seems soon to follow. They've released *nothing* related to SWTOR that looks remotely new and different. Just more retreaded gameplay with different artwork. The fact the game will act as an opiate for the masses doesn't necessarily denote quality. Catering to the lowest common denominator also has that effect. You may call that caviar, but I call it fish eggs.
I agree 100%, this dims my hopes in general for the company it seems dollar signs have replaced what was once a ground breaking imaginative studio. I have no doubts in their ability to mimic and refine the rules set up by blizzard, but years back you'd never hear anything like this come from the mouth of Bioware. It's bush league talk, little brother talk, the talk of a small company that wants to be bigger, Bioware is big and branded already and should be perfectly capable of making their own genre defining traits.
Alarmingly their contribution so far is to insult innovation and free thinking. In his OWN WORDS.
Problem is we still know so little about the actual mechanics of overall game play. While we do know there will be voice acting and stories and everything else we have been introduced to in various developer videos, we still have not seen any official videos showing how the leveling process goes, how questing goes outside of flashpoints and story events, how grouping works, how world PvP will work, how travel will work and a host of other information that has still remained closed off to the publics eye.
This leaves a huge chunk of the game still up for speculation, which is odd seeing they are still targeting their spring release date that is quickly approaching for how little information we have actually seen of the game. While its still fun to speculate about a game, I dont think any of us can say for certain what exactly the game will be like upon release.
It remains funny to see the haters flock to these kinds of threads like vultures to rip every word out of context or even put false ones instead.
“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""
This wasn't taken out of context and these are in Greg Zuschek's words.
Weee another cloned thread. I think i read this someone where else as well? we gotta be more inventive think outside the box, get into a more sandboxy feel with these threads, come on we can't keep giving people the same rehashed thread over and over and expect people to keep taking it. /end joke
Seriously though. Any game that is a theme park is going to follow a few standard things
Theres going to be quests.
Theres going to be a world.
Theres going to be avatars (characters you control)
Usually theres some kind of skill bar (covering my base incase theres a game out there that doesn't have this)
Like i posted in another thread though there are similarities to WoW because thats what happens when you make something in the same general line (ala theme park) you get something that feels like something in another game.
Mosts MMOs i've ever played felt like something i had played before. It happens it's how you make yourself different and add flavor to it that counts. What makes me play this game over say another game. Why play rachket and clank or some other platformer over mario. Some games will truely think outside the box (ie black and white) but this is usually rare (no not the company rare)
Now i think pretty much everyone expected a theme park game because thats what it's been advertised as. So it will i give you share some things that WoW does. But lets take a moment to look at (correct me if i'm wrong) that does NOT share similarites to wow.
1. Fully voiced dialog throughout the entire game (you and the NPCS)
2. Companion characters that have backstories and quests they can give you
3. The ability to sway those companions to your will.
4. Crafting system based on time, skill, ingrediants
5. The ability to call the NPC to turn in your quests without having to return (WoWs done so much so it's possible they may have this i don't know) the quest
6. Duck and cover system.
7. Multitude of attack animations that differ for nearly every attack you do (and not just differnt particles but your actual character moves differently): check out my thread about the attack animations for more on this point.
8. Physics engine where when you force push someone they actually fly backwards, slam into walls that sort of thing
9. Interactive dialog. meaning that you get choices and can direct the conversation in the way that you like. Think ME series and you'll get the general approach.
10. Some choices in dialog can fail or succeed depending on how you stat your character.
11. Companions and other people can interject their ideas and opinions and can sometimes alter the original course of a conversation to suit their needs rather then the person who started the quest/dungeon
12. Choices can change the layout, enemies, npc helpers of a dungeon (flashpoint) to give a new experience and you can even get different loot or so it's been said.
13. It's sci-fi (yes i know thats duh but one is fantasy and the other is sci-fi so it makes it different)
14. Has player housing (it's not new but it also is not in wow either)
Thats pretty much all i can think of off the top of my head but 14 differences does not make this look anywhere near a wow clone, similar yes, but more closely similar to any theme park MMO rather then just wow.
Granted it "shares" graphics although i'll say thats a strecth but /shrug. They used that for this reason: So as to make itself different from all the MMOs using gritty realistic style MMOs out there, like most are doing now a days, so it will have a longer lasting appel, and (most importantly) so it will work on a majority of the computers out there. Nothing worse then having to turn those cool graphics off and look at bland textures cause your computer can't handle it. Or having to drop thousands of dollars for just one game so it will now work on your computer.
Bioware is a pretty big company making a game that is going to be pretty big (this does not equal good or successful just that it will get noticed, and theres no doubt about that), plus Bioware and Blizzard have been at it (peacefully of sorts) with each other for quite some time now. So naturally they are going to give some props to the current king. Otherwise the current king willl just lop the head off (so to speak) of the possible upcoming usurper (some hope anyway)
In most cases you are kind to the person's face while your in public, you never say i'm going to take you down and shove you in the dirt, unless your pretty dang sure you have the fire power and ability to do so. Otherwise you shoot yourself in the foot. If you aren't 100% sure then you stay nice and friendly. Get to know the other sides rule book. What makes them win over and over and over (and for effect) and over again. Once you learn this, you adopt the same strategy and use it in your own, then you twist and turn it, tweak and modify it until you get something that is different from the original design but has the winning forumla in hopes that you found an even better way of doing things. (I think this is what Bioware is shooting for)
As for it having features of wow. Thats pretty hard to not have a single feature of wow considering everything that wow does. It's well known at least in a few circles that wow tends to "borrow" good ideas from other games. For recent example the new quest system in cataclysm. Never before did they do narrative quests in the almost (what is it 6 years now?) 6 years of existance but as soon as a couple of games start it, boom there it is, out before the rest. This isn't the first time we have seen this. It's a general known fact that when blizzard sees something that might work great in their game they do so as well. Sandboxes have avoided this for the most part but that i think is because of the general impossiblity of putting some of those things in game so far.
The one thing i'm surprised that WoW hasn't borrowed is player housing but they are staunchly against that. so i guess all the other MMOs are safe there. The point is, it's nearly impossible unless you make a blob MMO that works in warped space that leads across the galaxy using it's telepathic mind melding to not copy something wow has done.
But i don't think anyone is expecting a game to come out and not have "some" similarities to another game. I think however what i listed above is a good start (as well as what others have listed) to show that there is enough different that it can't really be called a clone.
I'm aware of the term clone (on the internet) means so similar that you feel like it's a carbon copy but a clone is something that looks (minus imperfections) exactly like something else, whereas this game has many differences that calling it a clone (exact copy) seems odd and makes me scratch my head. So i think the term wow clone is misplaced and the term inspired might be better.
I do entreat you to take a look at a couple of videos for your veiwing pleasure
Those two links can be used again to show the battling. Noticing in wow it's general hack and slash where you run up to a character, start using skills such as fireball and take the enemy down. Usually you take a swing, it takes a swing, you cast a spell it swings a few times, then you lauch the fireball. Both work competely indepent of each other. Regarldess of what skills you use (unless it's some kind of stun or knockback) the enemy will do the same thing as if you were just standing there. Whereas in the ToR, you got lightsaber clashing, people spining, it's all more interactive. The skills you use are visual not just saying oh X gets hit with sticky garnade, X takes 36 points of damage. No you see X get hit with the gernade, X move around trying to find/take it off, then an explosion occurs and X falls down (hopefully dead)
Heres some attacks from WoW by themselves (though they can be viewed above
Good example (you'll have to skip ahead a little to get to the actual fighting, about half way through is fine)
Anyway i think i let this go far too long but i think (and hope) i've proven (once again) that it shares similarities but has enough different to make it feel like it's own game. You will be able to jump into it like every other MMO (so you don't have the FF14 effect) but have a competely new story, with different areas to explore, different mobs to fight with a unique feel all it's own.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Problem is we still know so little about the actual mechanics of overall game play. While we do know there will be voice acting and stories and everything else we have been introduced to in various developer videos, we still have not seen any official videos showing how the leveling process goes, how questing goes outside of flashpoints and story events, how grouping works, how world PvP will work, how travel will work and a host of other information that has still remained closed off to the publics eye.
This leaves a huge chunk of the game still up for speculation, which is odd seeing they are still targeting their spring release date that is quickly approaching for how little information we have actually seen of the game. While its still fun to speculate about a game, I dont think any of us can say for certain what exactly the game will be like upon release.
World PvP works through PvP servers and flagging on PvE servers, we don't know about organised stuff other than BG's, although there is more than that.
Questing outside of flashpoints happens the way it happens inside flashpoints: ME / KOTOR style, flashpoints are dungeons and just serve for some more dramatic events.
Grouping works like in any MMO except group members can vote on dialogue choices.
Travel: there are mounts (with both fixed pathing and just useable) and you can travel to other planets in your ship which will probably happen by selecting them on a galaxy map or something like that.
There's plenty of info, it's just that no one gives a frak when they can make moronic statements on WoWness instead.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
It remains funny to see the haters flock to these kinds of threads like vultures to rip every word out of context or even put false ones instead.
“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""
This wasn't taken out of context and these are in Greg Zuschek's words.
Except you don't knwo exactly what he meant by that but are instead reading your own meanings into a vague quote.You could be right in your assumptions about what it means or you could be completely wrong or inbetween.he could mena stuff like making sure your game is playable on th emajority of configurations out there,a good newbie experience and general stuff liek that or he could mean what you want to beleive it means that they are copying WoW exactly.
I will reserve judgement on this game until I can actually playtest it and/or read a lot of reviews from people who have played it for significant periods outside of a controlled demo rather than random PR quotes and anonymous blogs.
All i ever hear being mentioned about this game is the story the story the story, every game has a story now what about the other features of this "mmorpg". I'm not going to buy a game just because it has voice overs.
Try playing the SP KOTOR games -
I bought DA:O and the most annoying thing in it (besides rogues just being warriors who wear lighter armor) is that I spend almost as much time watching it as I do playing it. Cutscenes are all well and good but Bioware takes them a little too far. I want to play the game, not watch it.
I like it. I am lazy and would much rather have someone read me the quest than have to read the small text myself.
If your really that lazy then I suggest you should watch a movie. Really, they're amazing, no quest text, you don't even have to control the characters. /End sarcasm.
I'm pretty sure most people don't play games to read quest text OR watch cutscenes. Games are for playing, not watching nor reading. You might like that but I'm sure plenty of other people would rather just play the game.
Yet there are plenty of games out there exactly for people like you and yet you would begrudge us this one single, story oriented game? What a bunch of greedy jerks.
It remains funny to see the haters flock to these kinds of threads like vultures to rip every word out of context or even put false ones instead.
“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""
This wasn't taken out of context and these are in Greg Zuschek's words.
Except you don't knwo exactly what he meant by that but are instead reading your own meanings into a vague quote.You could be right in your assumptions about what it means or you could be completely wrong or inbetween.he could mena stuff like making sure your game is playable on th emajority of configurations out there,a good newbie experience and general stuff liek that or he could mean what you want to beleive it means that they are copying WoW exactly.
I will reserve judgement on this game until I can actually playtest it and/or read a lot of reviews from people who have played it for significant periods outside of a controlled demo rather than random PR quotes and anonymous blogs.
I'm sorry, but it's pretty obvious what he meant. The general context of the paragraph is stating that WoW is the best MMO out there and that any game that tries to be different is dumb. You can see it in his quotes. He says that WoW defines how you play MMO's and also says that any game that breaks any of the rules WoW set, then that is a dumb decision. Read the second half of the second sentence (the part after the comma) and read his last sentence and tell me he didn't say what I just said he did.
It remains funny to see the haters flock to these kinds of threads like vultures to rip every word out of context or even put false ones instead.
“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""
This wasn't taken out of context and these are in Greg Zuschek's words.
Oh no? I see you stating how this means that they wouldn't deviate from what WoW did while that isn't what he said.
"WoW's rules" can simply mean the stuff that WoW did to make itself so popular, such as: smooth launch, seamless world, accesibility, fast combat, putting out content for each way of play, fluid controls, modifiable UI and generally delivering.
In fact, as people from BW gave presentations about what WoW proved for MMO's and what they did to make themselves popular (which caused similar outbreaks of retarditis on this forum), this is more than likely what he said. These guys have always been saying the same thing over and over about where they want to take this game, it's just when the "WoW" word falls that the haters are happy to go ballistic because they've finally found some more ground to feed on.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
It remains funny to see the haters flock to these kinds of threads like vultures to rip every word out of context or even put false ones instead.
“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""
This wasn't taken out of context and these are in Greg Zuschek's words.
Except you don't knwo exactly what he meant by that but are instead reading your own meanings into a vague quote.You could be right in your assumptions about what it means or you could be completely wrong or inbetween.he could mena stuff like making sure your game is playable on th emajority of configurations out there,a good newbie experience and general stuff liek that or he could mean what you want to beleive it means that they are copying WoW exactly.
I will reserve judgement on this game until I can actually playtest it and/or read a lot of reviews from people who have played it for significant periods outside of a controlled demo rather than random PR quotes and anonymous blogs.
I'm sorry, but it's pretty obvious what he meant. The general context of the paragraph is stating that WoW is the best MMO out there and that any game that tries to be different is dumb. You can see it in his quotes. He says that WoW defines how you play MMO's and also says that any game that breaks any of the rules WoW set, then that is a dumb decision. Read the second half of the second sentence (the part after the comma) and read his last sentence and tell me he didn't say what I just said he did.
I'm sorry I seem to be missing the part where he explains exactly what these rules he's talking about are.What he considers lessons learnt in WoW and what someone else does seems pretty subjective.I stnad by my words of not judging a whole game and dev team on the words of one PR quote form one guy.I'll make my own judgements when the time comes thank you.
Co-founder Greg Zeschuk of BioWare has said at the DICE summit in Las Vegas that MMO developers must take critical lessons from World of Warcraft.
That's because if we have standards in the genre, "WoW established them." It's a"touchstone" for BioWare's Star Wars: The Old Republic.
"It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb," Greg Zeschuk said at the conference.
"If you have established standards, WoW established them." Huge triple-A projects are still viable these days despite the rise of social gaming. He cited the Warcraft franchise at Blizzard as an example of success, particularly World of Warcraft.
"Bigger does work. Big has worked and frankly, WoW is the biggest."
"On a pure revenue basis it's probably the biggest game ever by a country mile. It generates so much revenue it's an incredible international business unto itself. How do we compete with that? It's an interesting challenge," continued the BioWare boss.
"In some ways they cracked this market wide open. Obviously Star Wars is a very big licence and it's something that when done right - and it's something we did right with KOTOR (Knights of the Old Republic) years ago - it's an incredible force multiplier on your efforts. We've added things so that anyone that plays it knows it's a BioWare game."
"It's not like we're actually going out there to beat anyone, we're going out to place. The audience will tell us if we have a place," wrapped up Zeschuk.
For your viewing pleasure
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I guess it's the old 'but it''ll be so much like WoW and I hate WoW and all sortlike MMO's' controvery again that gets people's blood hot and running
I swear, the times I shake my head in wonder and puzzlement when it comes to the MMO community, compared to the gamer community of other gaming genres. You don't see gamers hung up in other genres like shooters or RTS games about how 'that game is a [fill in name] clone!' or 'I don't want to play shooters or RTS games that play like the most popular ones in that genre'. Amazing.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
standard: a basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated; "the schools comply with federal standards"; "they set the measure for all subsequent work"
As a metaphor, a touchstone refers to any physical or intellectual measure by which the validity or merit of a concept can be tested. It is similar in use to an acid test, litmus test in politics, and a shibboleth.
Could be either of these.
Basically, they are taking wow as a reference point for their own game.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
standard: a basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated; "the schools comply with federal standards"; "they set the measure for all subsequent work"
As a metaphor, a touchstone refers to any physical or intellectual measure by which the validity or merit of a concept can be tested. It is similar in use to an acid test, litmus test in politics, and a shibboleth.
Could be either of these.
Basically, they are taking wow as a reference point for their own game.
Yes, but to which elements of WoW are they referring?
It remains funny to see the haters flock to these kinds of threads like vultures to rip every word out of context or even put false ones instead.
“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""
This wasn't taken out of context and these are in Greg Zuschek's words.
Except you don't knwo exactly what he meant by that but are instead reading your own meanings into a vague quote.You could be right in your assumptions about what it means or you could be completely wrong or inbetween.he could mena stuff like making sure your game is playable on th emajority of configurations out there,a good newbie experience and general stuff liek that or he could mean what you want to beleive it means that they are copying WoW exactly.
I will reserve judgement on this game until I can actually playtest it and/or read a lot of reviews from people who have played it for significant periods outside of a controlled demo rather than random PR quotes and anonymous blogs.
I'm sorry, but it's pretty obvious what he meant. The general context of the paragraph is stating that WoW is the best MMO out there and that any game that tries to be different is dumb. You can see it in his quotes. He says that WoW defines how you play MMO's and also says that any game that breaks any of the rules WoW set, then that is a dumb decision. Read the second half of the second sentence (the part after the comma) and read his last sentence and tell me he didn't say what I just said he did.
He is basically saying that the basics for an MMO should not differ from WoW. He is right to be honest, you can't change the whole look and feel of an MMO and expect to be successful. This doesn't mean TOR will be an out and out clone of WoW, we've already seen the questing taken to a completely new level and the combat is different while maintaining the same basics.
They have companion system which is a heavy part of the game both in adventure and crafting. There is a lot of new features in TOR but the main idea is to keep those MMO basics so the user doesn't feel totally lost. It's smart play.
I think we could easily end the thread in a peaceful way, if we knew what the definition of the word "touchstone" is in that context.
touchstone [?t?t??st??n]
n
1. a criterion or standard by which judgment is made
2. (Earth Sciences / Minerals) a hard dark siliceous stone, such as basalt or jasper, that is used to test the quality of gold and silver from the colour of the streak they produce on it
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
standard: a basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated; "the schools comply with federal standards"; "they set the measure for all subsequent work"
As a metaphor, a touchstone refers to any physical or intellectual measure by which the validity or merit of a concept can be tested. It is similar in use to an acid test, litmus test in politics, and a shibboleth.
Could be either of these.
Basically, they are taking wow as a reference point for their own game.
Yes, but to which elements of WoW are they referring?
There is the problem and the logic issue that is causing this storm in this thread, noone knows (unless i'm wrong) except for BW what exactly they are refering to. They could be refering to features, general model, path to success, anything. It's really the problem, it's too vague to pinpoint exactly what he was saying.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Co-founder Greg Zeschuk of BioWare has said at the DICE summit in Las Vegas that MMO developers must take critical lessons from World of Warcraft.
That's because if we have standards in the genre, "WoW established them." It's a"touchstone" for BioWare's Star Wars: The Old Republic.
"It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb," Greg Zeschuk said at the conference.
"If you have established standards, WoW established them." Huge triple-A projects are still viable these days despite the rise of social gaming. He cited the Warcraft franchise at Blizzard as an example of success, particularly World of Warcraft.
"Bigger does work. Big has worked and frankly, WoW is the biggest."
"On a pure revenue basis it's probably the biggest game ever by a country mile. It generates so much revenue it's an incredible international business unto itself. How do we compete with that? It's an interesting challenge," continued the BioWare boss.
"In some ways they cracked this market wide open. Obviously Star Wars is a very big licence and it's something that when done right - and it's something we did right with KOTOR (Knights of the Old Republic) years ago - it's an incredible force multiplier on your efforts. We've added things so that anyone that plays it knows it's a BioWare game."
"It's not like we're actually going out there to beat anyone, we're going out to place. The audience will tell us if we have a place," wrapped up Zeschuk.
For your viewing pleasure
"It's not like we're actually going out there to beat anyone, we're going out to place.
This quote also doesn't sit well with me. I have nothing against Bioware personally and If this isn't how the whole company feels about things then so much the better. But that quote is tells me that they really aren't trying as hard as they could with this game. You're really not supposed to go out and try to take first, but you're also not supposed to go out and say that you know your not going to take first so you decided that second or third is just fine. What they are supposed to do is design the game as best as they are able.
I will reiterate what I said before, I really hope that what Zeschuk said is only his personal opinion and not how the company as a whole feels about their project.
standard: a basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated; "the schools comply with federal standards"; "they set the measure for all subsequent work"
As a metaphor, a touchstone refers to any physical or intellectual measure by which the validity or merit of a concept can be tested. It is similar in use to an acid test, litmus test in politics, and a shibboleth.
Could be either of these.
Basically, they are taking wow as a reference point for their own game.
Yes, but to which elements of WoW are they referring?
There is the problem and the logic issue that is causing this storm in this thread, noone knows (unless i'm wrong) except for BW what exactly they are refering to. They could be refering to features, general model, path to success, anything. It's really the problem, it's too vague to pinpoint exactly what he was saying.
Whatever the exact meaning (and while you can not objectively prove this, I'd say it was likely he was just talking about quality and accesibility) he's certainly not talking about "cloning" it (whatever that even means).
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Co-founder Greg Zeschuk of BioWare has said at the DICE summit in Las Vegas that MMO developers must take critical lessons from World of Warcraft.
That's because if we have standards in the genre, "WoW established them." It's a"touchstone" for BioWare's Star Wars: The Old Republic.
"It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb," Greg Zeschuk said at the conference.
"If you have established standards, WoW established them." Huge triple-A projects are still viable these days despite the rise of social gaming. He cited the Warcraft franchise at Blizzard as an example of success, particularly World of Warcraft.
"Bigger does work. Big has worked and frankly, WoW is the biggest."
"On a pure revenue basis it's probably the biggest game ever by a country mile. It generates so much revenue it's an incredible international business unto itself. How do we compete with that? It's an interesting challenge," continued the BioWare boss.
"In some ways they cracked this market wide open. Obviously Star Wars is a very big licence and it's something that when done right - and it's something we did right with KOTOR (Knights of the Old Republic) years ago - it's an incredible force multiplier on your efforts. We've added things so that anyone that plays it knows it's a BioWare game."
"It's not like we're actually going out there to beat anyone, we're going out to place. The audience will tell us if we have a place," wrapped up Zeschuk.
For your viewing pleasure
"It's not like we're actually going out there to beat anyone, we're going out to place.
This quote also doesn't sit well with me. I have nothing against Bioware personally and If this isn't how the whole company feels about things then so much the better. But that quote is tells me that they really aren't trying as hard as they could with this game. You're really not supposed to go out and try to take first, but you're also not supposed to go out and say that you know your not going to take first so you decided that second or third is just fine. What they are supposed to do is design the game as best as they are able.
I will reiterate what I said before, I really hope that what Zeschuk said is only his personal opinion and not how the company as a whole feels about their project.
I think that quote just says they aren't dillusional to think that they're first venture into unknown territory (for them) is going to be a smash success. They don't want to bite off more then they can chew when what they are trying to chew is something new for them. Many companies have to tried to over take wow with little to no success. I think this is being more realistic, we want to make a great game but we don't want to try and tackle the leader, not when we are in it's territory. It knows the land. it knows the layout. it knows how the place runs. We know very little. So we will put our foot in the door and see where it takes us. Much better in my opinion then saying things like we plan to make an MMO that will take this place by storm and destroy the compatition (cuase we know how that normally works out).
This tells me they are level head, understand the field they are in and understand the risks. I prefer that much more then someone who has obscene goals of taking over the world and making an MMO that will destroy the king.
As for the game being good? well i have confidence it will be, based on their past history they've proven to me they know how to make games i will enjoy and apparently that many will enjoy as well.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Comments
Yeah, i thought it might be that. I don't like asian MMO of any kind, just he art style keeps me away from them.
I know who it was directed at, I was just saying you it would have been better directed at the arrogant, close-minded developer that thinks WoW is "like an MMO, but somehow cooler because i think wow is better than sex, jack daniels and fast cars". I can't honestly believe that somebody from Bioware (a company that supposedly makes best-selling RPG's) would go so far as to say that WoW has defines the way we play MMO's and that any MMO that tries to be even a little different than WoW is stupid. I really don't think I would want to play a game made by people like that.
I agree 100%, this dims my hopes in general for the company it seems dollar signs have replaced what was once a ground breaking imaginative studio. I have no doubts in their ability to mimic and refine the rules set up by blizzard, but years back you'd never hear anything like this come from the mouth of Bioware. It's bush league talk, little brother talk, the talk of a small company that wants to be bigger, Bioware is big and branded already and should be perfectly capable of making their own genre defining traits.
Alarmingly their contribution so far is to insult innovation and free thinking. In his OWN WORDS.
feh.
Problem is we still know so little about the actual mechanics of overall game play. While we do know there will be voice acting and stories and everything else we have been introduced to in various developer videos, we still have not seen any official videos showing how the leveling process goes, how questing goes outside of flashpoints and story events, how grouping works, how world PvP will work, how travel will work and a host of other information that has still remained closed off to the publics eye.
This leaves a huge chunk of the game still up for speculation, which is odd seeing they are still targeting their spring release date that is quickly approaching for how little information we have actually seen of the game. While its still fun to speculate about a game, I dont think any of us can say for certain what exactly the game will be like upon release.
My Guild Wars 2 Vids
It remains funny to see the haters flock to these kinds of threads like vultures to rip every word out of context or even put false ones instead.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
“It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it’s established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that’s pretty dumb,” Zeschuk told the audience.""
This wasn't taken out of context and these are in Greg Zuschek's words.
Weee another cloned thread. I think i read this someone where else as well? we gotta be more inventive think outside the box, get into a more sandboxy feel with these threads, come on we can't keep giving people the same rehashed thread over and over and expect people to keep taking it. /end joke
Seriously though. Any game that is a theme park is going to follow a few standard things
Theres going to be quests.
Theres going to be a world.
Theres going to be avatars (characters you control)
Usually theres some kind of skill bar (covering my base incase theres a game out there that doesn't have this)
Like i posted in another thread though there are similarities to WoW because thats what happens when you make something in the same general line (ala theme park) you get something that feels like something in another game.
Mosts MMOs i've ever played felt like something i had played before. It happens it's how you make yourself different and add flavor to it that counts. What makes me play this game over say another game. Why play rachket and clank or some other platformer over mario. Some games will truely think outside the box (ie black and white) but this is usually rare (no not the company rare)
Now i think pretty much everyone expected a theme park game because thats what it's been advertised as. So it will i give you share some things that WoW does. But lets take a moment to look at (correct me if i'm wrong) that does NOT share similarites to wow.
1. Fully voiced dialog throughout the entire game (you and the NPCS)
2. Companion characters that have backstories and quests they can give you
3. The ability to sway those companions to your will.
4. Crafting system based on time, skill, ingrediants
5. The ability to call the NPC to turn in your quests without having to return (WoWs done so much so it's possible they may have this i don't know) the quest
6. Duck and cover system.
7. Multitude of attack animations that differ for nearly every attack you do (and not just differnt particles but your actual character moves differently): check out my thread about the attack animations for more on this point.
8. Physics engine where when you force push someone they actually fly backwards, slam into walls that sort of thing
9. Interactive dialog. meaning that you get choices and can direct the conversation in the way that you like. Think ME series and you'll get the general approach.
10. Some choices in dialog can fail or succeed depending on how you stat your character.
11. Companions and other people can interject their ideas and opinions and can sometimes alter the original course of a conversation to suit their needs rather then the person who started the quest/dungeon
12. Choices can change the layout, enemies, npc helpers of a dungeon (flashpoint) to give a new experience and you can even get different loot or so it's been said.
13. It's sci-fi (yes i know thats duh but one is fantasy and the other is sci-fi so it makes it different)
14. Has player housing (it's not new but it also is not in wow either)
Thats pretty much all i can think of off the top of my head but 14 differences does not make this look anywhere near a wow clone, similar yes, but more closely similar to any theme park MMO rather then just wow.
Granted it "shares" graphics although i'll say thats a strecth but /shrug. They used that for this reason: So as to make itself different from all the MMOs using gritty realistic style MMOs out there, like most are doing now a days, so it will have a longer lasting appel, and (most importantly) so it will work on a majority of the computers out there. Nothing worse then having to turn those cool graphics off and look at bland textures cause your computer can't handle it. Or having to drop thousands of dollars for just one game so it will now work on your computer.
Bioware is a pretty big company making a game that is going to be pretty big (this does not equal good or successful just that it will get noticed, and theres no doubt about that), plus Bioware and Blizzard have been at it (peacefully of sorts) with each other for quite some time now. So naturally they are going to give some props to the current king. Otherwise the current king willl just lop the head off (so to speak) of the possible upcoming usurper (some hope anyway)
In most cases you are kind to the person's face while your in public, you never say i'm going to take you down and shove you in the dirt, unless your pretty dang sure you have the fire power and ability to do so. Otherwise you shoot yourself in the foot. If you aren't 100% sure then you stay nice and friendly. Get to know the other sides rule book. What makes them win over and over and over (and for effect) and over again. Once you learn this, you adopt the same strategy and use it in your own, then you twist and turn it, tweak and modify it until you get something that is different from the original design but has the winning forumla in hopes that you found an even better way of doing things. (I think this is what Bioware is shooting for)
As for it having features of wow. Thats pretty hard to not have a single feature of wow considering everything that wow does. It's well known at least in a few circles that wow tends to "borrow" good ideas from other games. For recent example the new quest system in cataclysm. Never before did they do narrative quests in the almost (what is it 6 years now?) 6 years of existance but as soon as a couple of games start it, boom there it is, out before the rest. This isn't the first time we have seen this. It's a general known fact that when blizzard sees something that might work great in their game they do so as well. Sandboxes have avoided this for the most part but that i think is because of the general impossiblity of putting some of those things in game so far.
The one thing i'm surprised that WoW hasn't borrowed is player housing but they are staunchly against that. so i guess all the other MMOs are safe there. The point is, it's nearly impossible unless you make a blob MMO that works in warped space that leads across the galaxy using it's telepathic mind melding to not copy something wow has done.
But i don't think anyone is expecting a game to come out and not have "some" similarities to another game. I think however what i listed above is a good start (as well as what others have listed) to show that there is enough different that it can't really be called a clone.
I'm aware of the term clone (on the internet) means so similar that you feel like it's a carbon copy but a clone is something that looks (minus imperfections) exactly like something else, whereas this game has many differences that calling it a clone (exact copy) seems odd and makes me scratch my head. So i think the term wow clone is misplaced and the term inspired might be better.
I do entreat you to take a look at a couple of videos for your veiwing pleasure
WoW quest system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuBw7XXemy4
Notice the quest text box
Now ToR quest system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d99OScY67lU&playnext=1&list=PL164A75DACC27D63D
Noticing no text and talking
Those two links can be used again to show the battling. Noticing in wow it's general hack and slash where you run up to a character, start using skills such as fireball and take the enemy down. Usually you take a swing, it takes a swing, you cast a spell it swings a few times, then you lauch the fireball. Both work competely indepent of each other. Regarldess of what skills you use (unless it's some kind of stun or knockback) the enemy will do the same thing as if you were just standing there. Whereas in the ToR, you got lightsaber clashing, people spining, it's all more interactive. The skills you use are visual not just saying oh X gets hit with sticky garnade, X takes 36 points of damage. No you see X get hit with the gernade, X move around trying to find/take it off, then an explosion occurs and X falls down (hopefully dead)
Heres some attacks from WoW by themselves (though they can be viewed above
Good example (you'll have to skip ahead a little to get to the actual fighting, about half way through is fine)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya-3N6DPTrE
Heres some ToR fighting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ayNgd_60qw
They um do not look the same way to me.
Anyway i think i let this go far too long but i think (and hope) i've proven (once again) that it shares similarities but has enough different to make it feel like it's own game. You will be able to jump into it like every other MMO (so you don't have the FF14 effect) but have a competely new story, with different areas to explore, different mobs to fight with a unique feel all it's own.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
We know plenty of all that, if you don't care about spoilers there was a guy from TOROcast.com who basically spilled the beans on the entire class arc for the Jedi Consular on Tython.
World PvP works through PvP servers and flagging on PvE servers, we don't know about organised stuff other than BG's, although there is more than that.
Questing outside of flashpoints happens the way it happens inside flashpoints: ME / KOTOR style, flashpoints are dungeons and just serve for some more dramatic events.
Grouping works like in any MMO except group members can vote on dialogue choices.
Travel: there are mounts (with both fixed pathing and just useable) and you can travel to other planets in your ship which will probably happen by selecting them on a galaxy map or something like that.
There's plenty of info, it's just that no one gives a frak when they can make moronic statements on WoWness instead.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Except you don't knwo exactly what he meant by that but are instead reading your own meanings into a vague quote.You could be right in your assumptions about what it means or you could be completely wrong or inbetween.he could mena stuff like making sure your game is playable on th emajority of configurations out there,a good newbie experience and general stuff liek that or he could mean what you want to beleive it means that they are copying WoW exactly.
I will reserve judgement on this game until I can actually playtest it and/or read a lot of reviews from people who have played it for significant periods outside of a controlled demo rather than random PR quotes and anonymous blogs.
Yet there are plenty of games out there exactly for people like you and yet you would begrudge us this one single, story oriented game? What a bunch of greedy jerks.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
I'm sorry, but it's pretty obvious what he meant. The general context of the paragraph is stating that WoW is the best MMO out there and that any game that tries to be different is dumb. You can see it in his quotes. He says that WoW defines how you play MMO's and also says that any game that breaks any of the rules WoW set, then that is a dumb decision. Read the second half of the second sentence (the part after the comma) and read his last sentence and tell me he didn't say what I just said he did.
Oh no? I see you stating how this means that they wouldn't deviate from what WoW did while that isn't what he said.
"WoW's rules" can simply mean the stuff that WoW did to make itself so popular, such as: smooth launch, seamless world, accesibility, fast combat, putting out content for each way of play, fluid controls, modifiable UI and generally delivering.
In fact, as people from BW gave presentations about what WoW proved for MMO's and what they did to make themselves popular (which caused similar outbreaks of retarditis on this forum), this is more than likely what he said. These guys have always been saying the same thing over and over about where they want to take this game, it's just when the "WoW" word falls that the haters are happy to go ballistic because they've finally found some more ground to feed on.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I'm sorry I seem to be missing the part where he explains exactly what these rules he's talking about are.What he considers lessons learnt in WoW and what someone else does seems pretty subjective.I stnad by my words of not judging a whole game and dev team on the words of one PR quote form one guy.I'll make my own judgements when the time comes thank you.
This is the quote in it's entirety
Co-founder Greg Zeschuk of BioWare has said at the DICE summit in Las Vegas that MMO developers must take critical lessons from World of Warcraft.
That's because if we have standards in the genre, "WoW established them." It's a"touchstone" for BioWare's Star Wars: The Old Republic.
"It is a touchstone. It has established standards, it's established how you play an MMO. Every MMO that comes out, I play and look at it. And if they break any of the WoW rules, in my book that's pretty dumb," Greg Zeschuk said at the conference.
"If you have established standards, WoW established them." Huge triple-A projects are still viable these days despite the rise of social gaming. He cited the Warcraft franchise at Blizzard as an example of success, particularly World of Warcraft.
"Bigger does work. Big has worked and frankly, WoW is the biggest."
"On a pure revenue basis it's probably the biggest game ever by a country mile. It generates so much revenue it's an incredible international business unto itself. How do we compete with that? It's an interesting challenge," continued the BioWare boss.
"In some ways they cracked this market wide open. Obviously Star Wars is a very big licence and it's something that when done right - and it's something we did right with KOTOR (Knights of the Old Republic) years ago - it's an incredible force multiplier on your efforts. We've added things so that anyone that plays it knows it's a BioWare game."
"It's not like we're actually going out there to beat anyone, we're going out to place. The audience will tell us if we have a place," wrapped up Zeschuk.
For your viewing pleasure
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I think we could easily end the thread in a peaceful way, if we knew what the definition of the word "touchstone" is in that context.
Holy crap!? This thread is growing fast O_o
I guess it's the old 'but it''ll be so much like WoW and I hate WoW and all sortlike MMO's' controvery again that gets people's blood hot and running
I swear, the times I shake my head in wonder and puzzlement when it comes to the MMO community, compared to the gamer community of other gaming genres. You don't see gamers hung up in other genres like shooters or RTS games about how 'that game is a [fill in name] clone!' or 'I don't want to play shooters or RTS games that play like the most popular ones in that genre'. Amazing.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Touchstone:
standard: a basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated; "the schools comply with federal standards"; "they set the measure for all subsequent work"
As a metaphor, a touchstone refers to any physical or intellectual measure by which the validity or merit of a concept can be tested. It is similar in use to an acid test, litmus test in politics, and a shibboleth.
Could be either of these.
Basically, they are taking wow as a reference point for their own game.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
To me, it means example. The entire article strikes me as an explanation on why they want to "emulate" WoW, not necessarily "copy" it.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Yes, but to which elements of WoW are they referring?
He is basically saying that the basics for an MMO should not differ from WoW. He is right to be honest, you can't change the whole look and feel of an MMO and expect to be successful. This doesn't mean TOR will be an out and out clone of WoW, we've already seen the questing taken to a completely new level and the combat is different while maintaining the same basics.
They have companion system which is a heavy part of the game both in adventure and crafting. There is a lot of new features in TOR but the main idea is to keep those MMO basics so the user doesn't feel totally lost. It's smart play.
touchstone [?t?t??st??n]
n
1. a criterion or standard by which judgment is made
2. (Earth Sciences / Minerals) a hard dark siliceous stone, such as basalt or jasper, that is used to test the quality of gold and silver from the colour of the streak they produce on it
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
There is the problem and the logic issue that is causing this storm in this thread, noone knows (unless i'm wrong) except for BW what exactly they are refering to. They could be refering to features, general model, path to success, anything. It's really the problem, it's too vague to pinpoint exactly what he was saying.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
"It's not like we're actually going out there to beat anyone, we're going out to place.
This quote also doesn't sit well with me. I have nothing against Bioware personally and If this isn't how the whole company feels about things then so much the better. But that quote is tells me that they really aren't trying as hard as they could with this game. You're really not supposed to go out and try to take first, but you're also not supposed to go out and say that you know your not going to take first so you decided that second or third is just fine. What they are supposed to do is design the game as best as they are able.
I will reiterate what I said before, I really hope that what Zeschuk said is only his personal opinion and not how the company as a whole feels about their project.
Whatever the exact meaning (and while you can not objectively prove this, I'd say it was likely he was just talking about quality and accesibility) he's certainly not talking about "cloning" it (whatever that even means).
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I think that quote just says they aren't dillusional to think that they're first venture into unknown territory (for them) is going to be a smash success. They don't want to bite off more then they can chew when what they are trying to chew is something new for them. Many companies have to tried to over take wow with little to no success. I think this is being more realistic, we want to make a great game but we don't want to try and tackle the leader, not when we are in it's territory. It knows the land. it knows the layout. it knows how the place runs. We know very little. So we will put our foot in the door and see where it takes us. Much better in my opinion then saying things like we plan to make an MMO that will take this place by storm and destroy the compatition (cuase we know how that normally works out).
This tells me they are level head, understand the field they are in and understand the risks. I prefer that much more then someone who has obscene goals of taking over the world and making an MMO that will destroy the king.
As for the game being good? well i have confidence it will be, based on their past history they've proven to me they know how to make games i will enjoy and apparently that many will enjoy as well.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.