some games are. they're called 'real-time strategy'. Most mmo players seek a different style of gameplay, however. Chess is the interesting one...out of your list its the only turn-based game. there's nothing real-time about chess. Also no RNG. its 100% skill-based. that's why it's around for longer than the Printing Press.
theres nothing real-time about chess?
since when thinking came turnbased? when masters play the game ,it might look like turn based,but i can tell you,they do alot of real time playing in their minds.
No it's still turn based, they can think 20 moves ahead, and then because it is turn based discard all that thinking and head in a different direction, because they hadn't taken their turn yet.
after 20 moves on chess table?? there would be about infinite possibilies,and you dont need to think ?
after 3 theres like millions.
You have played chess before? One player moves a piece and his turn ends, I can then go to the toilet, head out for dinner or stare at the board, however, nothing at all changes until I lift a piece and move it, thus ending my turn. It's turn based, it's unarguable.
to you it is turnbased,when i go to the toilet and take a dinner i think my next move and play the game ,you dont.
And it is still turn based, whilst you sit on the toilet thinking about the bishop, I cannot take another move because it is still your turn. Simple logic 101
i think its better to paste it
after 20 moves on chess table?? there would be about infinite possibilies,and you dont need to think ?
after 3 theres like millions.
I can't believe you think chess is not a turn based game, it beggars belief.
RPGs are about character progression, and gear/levels happens to be part of that. If you want to play a game where success is based mainly around skill, I suggest picking up an FPS or RTS game.
Exactamundo... It's attitudes like the OP's that really boggle my mind, what he wants is another genre, not to say there can't be MMO games like this, but they're not going to be MMORPG's.
Well, they are making one just for the OP, GW2 in fact, and it really isn't a proper MMORPG since its focuses so hard on removing character progression from the game and leveling the playing field.
Should be right up his alley.
There is a lot of misinformation and speculation about just how exactly GW2's progression system will work.
RPGs are about character progression, and gear/levels happens to be part of that. If you want to play a game where success is based mainly around skill, I suggest picking up an FPS or RTS game.
Exactamundo... It's attitudes like the OP's that really boggle my mind, what he wants is another genre, not to say there can't be MMO games like this, but they're not going to be MMORPG's.
Well, they are making one just for the OP, GW2 in fact, and it really isn't a proper MMORPG since its focuses so hard on removing character progression from the game and leveling the playing field.
Should be right up his alley.
There is a lot of misinformation and speculation about just how exactly GW2's progression system will work.
I think He's referring to the level cap philosophy GW2 is using, no upward progression all horizontal. Not to mention things like instant 80, gear etc.. in PVP.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
But you're right... this horse is as beaten dead as they get. Artificial advancement is and always will be a part of RPG's. It's up to us to play them as they are, enjoy them, or go play something else.
That is a 100% false statement. Time = Reward was introduced by EQ2 and did not become staple for another 4-5 years which just so happened to be the time that this horse started to become beaten to death.
You should read it in the context of the post it was responding to.
The genre is now overrun with people who spend their lives playing the games, will defend the model to no end, the odds of it changing are slim now...thanks to those that dont even know what a game based on fun is even like. So, three cheers for keeping MMORPGs a second job!
Seems to me that MMO's are becoming less and less a second job as they go. Surely a run to max level in EQ takes alot more time than, say, SWTOR? Especially EQ as it was when it launched?
But getting back to my original point, RPG's have ALWAYS given the edge to people who have played the longest; an edge that goes beyond just being more experienced. Even in PnP games, you're supposed to reward experience for roleplay and engagement. This leads to advancement which leads to more hit points, spells, etc.
So that's what I mean when I say it's always been there. If you've been playing a DnD character for 5 years but never saw a single battle, you will probably still be higher level and thus more powerful than a starting 1st level character. Compare that to chess where experience, knowledge and skill are your ONLY edge. You don't get an extra queen for having played for 10 years.
All RPG's reward time in game, and they always will.
Time is money and thats what they want you to do is spend your time in game. If everyone could just do it once then be done with it then there would be no replay value to it. The best mmos out there reward you from time dedicated to the game and thats how it should be, this isnt an FPS or Dota game where everyone is on the same level of playing ground on day one. Maybe you should stick in that genre if you dont want to be rewarded for your time spent, those games are for the real casuals anyway.
Companies reward time spend with loyalty points of some sort.
Players get better the more time they spend in a game, regardless of the activities involved. That includes all games mentioned by the op.
Bottom line, games don't need to reward players, those that play more become naturally better. It's the same thing with all human activities really, the more you train, the better you become.
RPGs are about character progression, and gear/levels happens to be part of that. If you want to play a game where success is based mainly around skill, I suggest picking up an FPS or RTS game.
Exactamundo... It's attitudes like the OP's that really boggle my mind, what he wants is another genre, not to say there can't be MMO games like this, but they're not going to be MMORPG's.
Well, they are making one just for the OP, GW2 in fact, and it really isn't a proper MMORPG since its focuses so hard on removing character progression from the game and leveling the playing field.
Should be right up his alley.
There is a lot of misinformation and speculation about just how exactly GW2's progression system will work.
I think He's referring to the level cap philosophy GW2 is using, no upward progression all horizontal. Not to mention things like instant 80, gear etc.. in PVP.
I stand by my statement, with the exception to the instant level cap PvP chars.
... Time = Reward by EQ2? Woah now. Please research more before you speak. It doesn't matter what MMO you go into, those that have more time to play will also be the ones with the better stuff. If you mean standing around doing absolutely NOTHING and getting a reward, then that would have to be every single Korean Style Grinder. You get rewards for being logged in, and for logging in every day. Not so with almost any Western AAA title.
Woah now. Please research more before you speak. There were NO ITEMS in NWNO, Meridan 59, The Realm, UO or AC1 that you could get playing 100 hours a week that I could not get playing 1 hour a week. In SWG I could get the best items in game from buying it another player...it was EQ1 that introduced the time = reward model
Enjoy your cup of derp while you defend games that dont reward FUN = reward...dup dup ditty day!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by Robsolf If you play 20 hours a week, you should be able to beat someone who doesn't WITHOUT artificial rewards for doing so.
False. It is only true if the person actually learned during that time which, considering player behaviour and feature design in MMOs, is a bad assumption to make. Repetition is the mother of study, but not everyone is equally good at study. Even less are capable of effectively using or applying it.
Note my highlighted word. The existence of exceptions does not mean a statement is false.
Experience should be its own reward. If it's not, you either have a broken player or a broken game.
I think He's referring to the level cap philosophy GW2 is using, no upward progression all horizontal. Not to mention things like instant 80, gear etc.. in PVP.
I stand by my statement, with the exception to the instant level cap PvP chars.
Fair enough, I don't disagree that we could have the wrong idea.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The flaw in the OP's opinion is this: You are assuming that humans, when confronted with a new activity or challenge, have already the appropiate skill and reflexes to pass it. That is not true. Simply put, in order to gain the skills and strategy necessary to tackle the toughest content a game has to offer, repetition and "work" is needed. In order to become better in something, you have to spend time in it.
A professional pianist didn't just sit on the piano one day and started playing Beethoven. A Starcraft II professional didn't just sit down one time, played for the first time and beat everyone because of his "inherent skill". They practice. It's the same on competitive PvE MMOs.
For example, many people hate WoW. But in WoW there's some very competitive PvE guilds, I'd say the most competitive in the entire world, who try to achieve world first boss kills. In order to do that, not only do they strategize to the extreme, they are also some of the best players out there. They know everything about the game and they know what each player is capable of bringing to the table. But, when a new tier of content comes, they don't just simply sit through one night and kill everything. It took 300+ attempts for the first guild in the world to defeat Spine of Deathwing, for example.
So you see, it's necessary to spend time in a game if you wish to tackle the highest challenges it offers.
A professional pianist didn't just sit on the piano one day and started playing Beethoven. A Starcraft II professional didn't just sit down one time, played for the first time and beat everyone because of his "inherent skill". They practice. It's the same on competitive PvE MMOs.
Nonsense! They don't need to train, they need a montage!!!
some games are. they're called 'real-time strategy'. Most mmo players seek a different style of gameplay, however.
Chess is the interesting one...out of your list its the only turn-based game. there's nothing real-time about chess. Also no RNG. its 100% skill-based. that's why it's around for longer than the Printing Press.
theres nothing real-time about chess?
since when thinking came turnbased? when masters play the game ,it might look like turn based,but i can tell you,they do alot of real time playing in their minds.
you just made an argument around the 'top 1% elite"...
"Thinking" is not a quanitifable requirement for chess. If we look at "thinking" as part of a game, then there is no game that isn't real-time. Minesweeper becomes real-time strategy. Solitaire too. you think-think-think, when done make the move then think-think-think about the next move.
I'm not accepting the real-time argument for chess...because it really really IS turn-based. The game is. what the player's doing when its not his turn is entirely his choice and by no means a requirement for the game.
... Time = Reward by EQ2? Woah now. Please research more before you speak. It doesn't matter what MMO you go into, those that have more time to play will also be the ones with the better stuff. If you mean standing around doing absolutely NOTHING and getting a reward, then that would have to be every single Korean Style Grinder. You get rewards for being logged in, and for logging in every day. Not so with almost any Western AAA title.
Woah now. Please research more before you speak. There were NO ITEMS in NWNO, Meridan 59, The Realm, UO or AC1 that you could get playing 100 hours a week that I could not get playing 1 hour a week. In SWG I could get the best items in game from buying it another player...it was EQ1 that introduced the time = reward model
Enjoy your cup of derp while you defend games that dont reward FUN = reward...dup dup ditty day!
lol. Ok, I will bite (I am in a chatty mood this morning anyways), You are assuming that because you could PURCHASED another person's time, that this time was not invested in the game? Appart from this, you still had to put time in game to get the in game currency to get the item in question. Unless of course you did some RMT for it, in which case that proves my point since TIME = Money :-P
Please explain how EQ introduced time = reward? Could you log into the game and sit still (not grouping, not moving, not chatting) and get rewarded? As far as I know, you had to move around and do something... anything, to get a reward out of it. Even if it was just grouping up, move to a grind spot and then letting your friends, or hired help kill all the mobs while you mooched xp.
Get out one 4"x4" piece of paper (it must be exact). On one side write, "Turn over to play." on the other side write, "You won".
This game sounds around your speed. If you feel this game is a tad too easy after , a few months of practice, try out the red button game. Its a bit more complicated.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
lol. Ok, I will bite (I am in a chatty mood this morning anyways), You are assuming that because you could PURCHASED another person's time, that this time was not invested in the game? Appart from this, you still had to put time in game to get the in game currency to get the item in question. Unless of course you did some RMT for it, in which case that proves my point since TIME = Money :-P
Please explain how EQ introduced time = reward? Could you log into the game and sit still (not grouping, not moving, not chatting) and get rewarded? As far as I know, you had to move around and do something... anything, to get a reward out of it. Even if it was just grouping up, move to a grind spot and then letting your friends, or hired help kill all the mobs while you mooched xp.
lol. Ok, I will bite (I am in a chatty mood this morning anyways), You are assuming that because you could pay a subscription to access a game to spend time in it , that this form of payment was OK because you then spent that time endlessly doing the same tasks to obtain an item, and that people paying for that item directly was bad because they were then allowed to spend their time playing...for fun...because to you, time = reward :-P
EQ introduced time = reward because it was THAT game that had 2 to 72 HOUR LONG SPAWNS ON KEY MOBS THAT DROPPED KEY ITEMS. Holy mother F%#$*%! S#$% do you know anything about the history of this genre? EQ was THE game that introduced the idea that if you didnt sink massive amounts of time into it, you wouldnt progress far, pre EQ games were about FUN, not having a second job.
Face it, the argument is about trying to keep the OMG THEY CAN GET THE UBER GEAR OF WTFPWNSAUCE WITHOUT PUTTING IN 1000 HOURS LIKE I WANT TO DO from happening.
But I really enjoy reading people suddenly turning to minor symantecs to draw the conversation away from what is beind discussed in order to try to salavage their argument.
No really, people hear are talking about moving around and do something for, xp or that grey loot item thats going to be sold from the mob you just killed, when talking about Time = reward.
No really. thats what this is about...heh.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
lol. Ok, I will bite (I am in a chatty mood this morning anyways), You are assuming that because you could PURCHASED another person's time, that this time was not invested in the game? Appart from this, you still had to put time in game to get the in game currency to get the item in question. Unless of course you did some RMT for it, in which case that proves my point since TIME = Money :-P
Please explain how EQ introduced time = reward? Could you log into the game and sit still (not grouping, not moving, not chatting) and get rewarded? As far as I know, you had to move around and do something... anything, to get a reward out of it. Even if it was just grouping up, move to a grind spot and then letting your friends, or hired help kill all the mobs while you mooched xp.
lol. Ok, I will bite (I am in a chatty mood this morning anyways), You are assuming that because you could pay a subscription to access a game to spend time in it , that this form of payment was OK because you then spent that time endlessly doing the same tasks to obtain an item, and that people paying for that item directly was bad because they were then allowed to spend their time playing...for fun...because to you, time = reward :-P
EQ introduced time = reward because it was THAT game that had 2 to 72 HOUR LONG SPAWNS ON KEY MOBS THAT DROPPED KEY ITEMS. Holy mother F%#$*%! S#$% do you know anything about the history of this genre? EQ was THE game that introduced the idea that if you didnt sink massive amounts of time into it, you wouldnt progress far, pre EQ games were about FUN, not having a second job.
Face it, the argument is about trying to keep the OMG THEY CAN GET THE UBER GEAR OF WTFPWNSAUCE WITHOUT PUTTING IN 1000 HOURS LIKE I WANT TO DO from happening.
But I really enjoy reading people suddenly turning to minor symantecs to draw the conversation away from what is beind discussed in order to try to salavage their argument.
No really, people hear are talking about moving around and do something for, xp or that grey loot item thats going to be sold from the mob you just killed, when talking about Time = reward.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Please explain how EQ introduced time = reward? Could you log into the game and sit still (not grouping, not moving, not chatting) and get rewarded? As far as I know, you had to move around and do something... anything, to get a reward out of it. Even if it was just grouping up, move to a grind spot and then letting your friends, or hired help kill all the mobs while you mooched xp.
...
EQ introduced time = reward because it was THAT game that had 2 to 72 HOUR LONG SPAWNS ON KEY MOBS THAT DROPPED KEY ITEMS. Holy mother F%#$*%! S#$% do you know anything about the history of this genre? EQ was THE game that introduced the idea that if you didnt sink massive amounts of time into it, you wouldnt progress far, pre EQ games were about FUN, not having a second job.
Face it, the argument is about trying to keep the OMG THEY CAN GET THE UBER GEAR OF WTFPWNSAUCE WITHOUT PUTTING IN 1000 HOURS LIKE I WANT TO DO from happening.
But I really enjoy reading people suddenly turning to minor symantecs to draw the conversation away from what is beind discussed in order to try to salavage their argument.
No really, people hear are talking about moving around and do something for, xp or that grey loot item thats going to be sold from the mob you just killed, when talking about Time = reward.
No really. thats what this is about...heh.
So... your point is that the best items in the game (The epics), should be simple to get for any person? The targets should always be up when you are there, and no downtime anywhere for your rewards? I wont directly say it, but there is a word for people who feel they deserve everything the moment they ask for it.
It doesn't matter how the artificial time expansion is placed in. Either in a multitude of quests, timed world mobs, rare dropped materials, dungeon lockouts, ect ect... they all do the same thing: increase the time that you have to play the game in order to get a certain reward. Time ITSELF did not equal the reward. Instead it was what you did with that time.
You believe it is all semantics, but it really all is in your wording. It is: "Spend time pursuing a goal and get rewarded.", Not just "spend time in game and get rewarded."
You are just trying to justify your playstyle and then impose it on others. How would you propose the company make money from an MMORPG? And remember, they make money the longer we play. Any suggestion you give has to make money in the long run, and not the short term.
You are arguing the wrong point, i think, this is not about BoP items you HAVE TO play long to get or daily quests (or spawns) that reward you just for logging every day, but about the concept that was always present, if you play long (and do some stuff) you will get more exp, thus your character will get more powerful, just because you played longer than the "more skilled" OP that is still lagging 20 levels behind inspite of him being "more skilled" just because he does not play as much.
And i dare you to claim this was not present in UO
So if I have a membership to a gym, I should automatically grow muscles?
If you spend more time than me DOING muscle building exercizes, yes! If you just go in and sit there looking at the ladies, then, no. Wrong muscle being exercized there buddy :-P
Players should indeed be rewarded for acomplishments, not for grinding.
The "everybody win" mentality which reward people for playing no matter how bad they arereally makes people worse.
In the old era of C-64and Amiga games were hard and people learned to play they well because we had no other choice. Now it really only matters for the raids and most people don't bother to play them.
Players should indeed be rewarded for acomplishments, not for grinding.
The "everybody win" mentality which reward people for playing no matter how bad they arereally makes people worse.
In the old era of C-64and Amiga games were hard and people learned to play they well because we had no other choice. Now it really only matters for the raids and most people don't bother to play them.
I think the real issue at hand here is difficulty. I don't think there is a single MMORPG (other than maybe Eve) that rewards you for simply playing the game and doing nothing else.
You always have to do SOMETHING to advance. The problem is that, that something is typically so easy that people feel like they aren't really accomplishing anything. Killing 10 gnolls is simple, and since you aren't penalized harshly if you die, you never have to be careful. You just faceroll your way through.
Now back in the EQ days of exp and even level loss on death...I don't think anyone ever called leveling easy .
My take on this is that games should indeed "reward" players based on time played but my angle may differ from yours. I don't play games to get "rewards" like gear, titles, etc. but because of the fun I'm having while playing i.e. spending time in the game. And the funny thing is that we are both right.
Comments
theres nothing real-time about chess?
since when thinking came turnbased? when masters play the game ,it might look like turn based,but i can tell you,they do alot of real time playing in their minds.
No it's still turn based, they can think 20 moves ahead, and then because it is turn based discard all that thinking and head in a different direction, because they hadn't taken their turn yet.after 20 moves on chess table?? there would be about infinite possibilies,and you dont need to think ?
after 3 theres like millions.
You have played chess before? One player moves a piece and his turn ends, I can then go to the toilet, head out for dinner or stare at the board, however, nothing at all changes until I lift a piece and move it, thus ending my turn. It's turn based, it's unarguable.to you it is turnbased,when i go to the toilet and take a dinner i think my next move and play the game ,you dont.
And it is still turn based, whilst you sit on the toilet thinking about the bishop, I cannot take another move because it is still your turn. Simple logic 101i think its better to paste it
after 20 moves on chess table?? there would be about infinite possibilies,and you dont need to think ?
after 3 theres like millions.
I can't believe you think chess is not a turn based game, it beggars belief.There is a lot of misinformation and speculation about just how exactly GW2's progression system will work.
I think He's referring to the level cap philosophy GW2 is using, no upward progression all horizontal. Not to mention things like instant 80, gear etc.. in PVP.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Time is money and thats what they want you to do is spend your time in game. If everyone could just do it once then be done with it then there would be no replay value to it. The best mmos out there reward you from time dedicated to the game and thats how it should be, this isnt an FPS or Dota game where everyone is on the same level of playing ground on day one. Maybe you should stick in that genre if you dont want to be rewarded for your time spent, those games are for the real casuals anyway.
Companies reward time spend with loyalty points of some sort.
Players get better the more time they spend in a game, regardless of the activities involved. That includes all games mentioned by the op.
Bottom line, games don't need to reward players, those that play more become naturally better. It's the same thing with all human activities really, the more you train, the better you become.
I stand by my statement, with the exception to the instant level cap PvP chars.
Woah now. Please research more before you speak. There were NO ITEMS in NWNO, Meridan 59, The Realm, UO or AC1 that you could get playing 100 hours a week that I could not get playing 1 hour a week. In SWG I could get the best items in game from buying it another player...it was EQ1 that introduced the time = reward model
Enjoy your cup of derp while you defend games that dont reward FUN = reward...dup dup ditty day!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Note my highlighted word. The existence of exceptions does not mean a statement is false.
Experience should be its own reward. If it's not, you either have a broken player or a broken game.
Fair enough, I don't disagree that we could have the wrong idea.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The flaw in the OP's opinion is this: You are assuming that humans, when confronted with a new activity or challenge, have already the appropiate skill and reflexes to pass it. That is not true. Simply put, in order to gain the skills and strategy necessary to tackle the toughest content a game has to offer, repetition and "work" is needed. In order to become better in something, you have to spend time in it.
A professional pianist didn't just sit on the piano one day and started playing Beethoven. A Starcraft II professional didn't just sit down one time, played for the first time and beat everyone because of his "inherent skill". They practice. It's the same on competitive PvE MMOs.
For example, many people hate WoW. But in WoW there's some very competitive PvE guilds, I'd say the most competitive in the entire world, who try to achieve world first boss kills. In order to do that, not only do they strategize to the extreme, they are also some of the best players out there. They know everything about the game and they know what each player is capable of bringing to the table. But, when a new tier of content comes, they don't just simply sit through one night and kill everything. It took 300+ attempts for the first guild in the world to defeat Spine of Deathwing, for example.
So you see, it's necessary to spend time in a game if you wish to tackle the highest challenges it offers.
Nonsense! They don't need to train, they need a montage!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU9Uwhjlog8
Fair court,i take that 1%.
Let's internet
lol. Ok, I will bite (I am in a chatty mood this morning anyways), You are assuming that because you could PURCHASED another person's time, that this time was not invested in the game? Appart from this, you still had to put time in game to get the in game currency to get the item in question. Unless of course you did some RMT for it, in which case that proves my point since TIME = Money :-P
Please explain how EQ introduced time = reward? Could you log into the game and sit still (not grouping, not moving, not chatting) and get rewarded? As far as I know, you had to move around and do something... anything, to get a reward out of it. Even if it was just grouping up, move to a grind spot and then letting your friends, or hired help kill all the mobs while you mooched xp.
I have the game for you.
Get out one 4"x4" piece of paper (it must be exact). On one side write, "Turn over to play." on the other side write, "You won".
This game sounds around your speed. If you feel this game is a tad too easy after , a few months of practice, try out the red button game. Its a bit more complicated.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
lol. Ok, I will bite (I am in a chatty mood this morning anyways), You are assuming that because you could pay a subscription to access a game to spend time in it , that this form of payment was OK because you then spent that time endlessly doing the same tasks to obtain an item, and that people paying for that item directly was bad because they were then allowed to spend their time playing...for fun...because to you, time = reward :-P
EQ introduced time = reward because it was THAT game that had 2 to 72 HOUR LONG SPAWNS ON KEY MOBS THAT DROPPED KEY ITEMS. Holy mother F%#$*%! S#$% do you know anything about the history of this genre? EQ was THE game that introduced the idea that if you didnt sink massive amounts of time into it, you wouldnt progress far, pre EQ games were about FUN, not having a second job.
Face it, the argument is about trying to keep the OMG THEY CAN GET THE UBER GEAR OF WTFPWNSAUCE WITHOUT PUTTING IN 1000 HOURS LIKE I WANT TO DO from happening.
But I really enjoy reading people suddenly turning to minor symantecs to draw the conversation away from what is beind discussed in order to try to salavage their argument.
No really, people hear are talking about moving around and do something for, xp or that grey loot item thats going to be sold from the mob you just killed, when talking about Time = reward.
No really. thats what this is about...heh.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
semantics?
No, the software company.
heh, cant believe I did that. lol...
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
So... your point is that the best items in the game (The epics), should be simple to get for any person? The targets should always be up when you are there, and no downtime anywhere for your rewards? I wont directly say it, but there is a word for people who feel they deserve everything the moment they ask for it.
It doesn't matter how the artificial time expansion is placed in. Either in a multitude of quests, timed world mobs, rare dropped materials, dungeon lockouts, ect ect... they all do the same thing: increase the time that you have to play the game in order to get a certain reward. Time ITSELF did not equal the reward. Instead it was what you did with that time.
You believe it is all semantics, but it really all is in your wording. It is: "Spend time pursuing a goal and get rewarded.", Not just "spend time in game and get rewarded."
You are just trying to justify your playstyle and then impose it on others. How would you propose the company make money from an MMORPG? And remember, they make money the longer we play. Any suggestion you give has to make money in the long run, and not the short term.
You are arguing the wrong point, i think, this is not about BoP items you HAVE TO play long to get or daily quests (or spawns) that reward you just for logging every day, but about the concept that was always present, if you play long (and do some stuff) you will get more exp, thus your character will get more powerful, just because you played longer than the "more skilled" OP that is still lagging 20 levels behind inspite of him being "more skilled" just because he does not play as much.
And i dare you to claim this was not present in UO
Flame on!
So if I have a membership to a gym, I should automatically grow muscles?
If you spend more time than me DOING muscle building exercizes, yes! If you just go in and sit there looking at the ladies, then, no. Wrong muscle being exercized there buddy :-P
You get out of game & life what you put into it.
Players should indeed be rewarded for acomplishments, not for grinding.
The "everybody win" mentality which reward people for playing no matter how bad they arereally makes people worse.
In the old era of C-64and Amiga games were hard and people learned to play they well because we had no other choice. Now it really only matters for the raids and most people don't bother to play them.
I think the real issue at hand here is difficulty. I don't think there is a single MMORPG (other than maybe Eve) that rewards you for simply playing the game and doing nothing else.
You always have to do SOMETHING to advance. The problem is that, that something is typically so easy that people feel like they aren't really accomplishing anything. Killing 10 gnolls is simple, and since you aren't penalized harshly if you die, you never have to be careful. You just faceroll your way through.
Now back in the EQ days of exp and even level loss on death...I don't think anyone ever called leveling easy
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
My take on this is that games should indeed "reward" players based on time played but my angle may differ from yours. I don't play games to get "rewards" like gear, titles, etc. but because of the fun I'm having while playing i.e. spending time in the game. And the funny thing is that we are both right.