so this game has "alpha classes"

Timberhick · December 2015

@StaalBurgher
I never said classes, HFS used the term for ease of understanding. You are the only one who seems to have this urge to prove HFS wrong in something he full well acknowledged in the very first sentence of this thread.

"Yes I'm fully aware that it's a skill based game, but I'm using the term because it will be familiar."

See that? Have you understood that yet?

StaalBurgher · December 2015

@Timberhick Using that term is deliberately misleading. It completely misrepresents what Talents are. If he knows the term is inappropriate it goes to show his argument is bunk.

The devs have clearly stated the design intent of Talents. The pros, if it works, clearly outweigh the cons. It is not comparable to systems used in other MMOs for the very fact that Talents are in no way a "class". Dynamic questing/story-telling driven by players have long been a major goal for the MMO genre in general. Now you want to diss a very innovative attempt to achieve this with spurious comparisons to a system that is practically a different genre?

It is clear the OP's only intent is to start an argument and be negative with such a false and provocative thread title. Hence he was called a troll. Especially after the lead designer took the trouble to explain in detail what is meant to happen. Actually that is giving him credit for knowing what he is doing. The alternative is just sad. If you don't believe the actual design will be as planned... that is a different argument and still has nothing to do with the ridiculous use of the term "class".

Timberhick · December 2015

@StaalBurgher ; Class works just fine for the thread discussion.

StaalBurgher · December 2015

@Timberhick Haha... bro it is so funny how you stalk every CoE thread in this forum... I have an ex-girlfriend like that.

And no it doesn't.

HabitualFrogStomp · December 2015

StaalBurgher said:

I might as well just repeat my post as you do not address any of it.

Talents are not equally accessible to everyone, you have no direct control over whether you will get one. Your argument fails right there OP. Sorry.

Your alpha class rambling has been thoroughly debunked.

I might as well just repeat my post as you do not address any of it.

Talents are equally accessible to everyone (anyone who has an account may have one, anyone who participates heavily in the story will greatly increase their chance of having one). As per the devs.

The argument hasn't failed. My argument already took your reasoning well into account and dispensed with it in the OP.

I won't be held accountable just because you can not read properly.

HabitualFrogStomp · December 2015

StaalBurgher said:

And no it doesn't.

Yes it does.

Deal with it.

StaalBurgher · December 2015

Haha by your own words "may have one". I.e.the majority won't. Jedi was available to everyone guaranteed. You are twisting yourself in knots trying to keep up.

HabitualFrogStomp · December 2015

StaalBurgher said:

Haha by your own words "may have one". I.e.the majority won't. Jedi was available to everyone guaranteed. You are twisting yourself in knots trying to keep up.

Everyone had equal access to Jedi on SWG just as they will have equal access to talents on this game. By purchasing a soul you will have as much chance to have access to a talent as any other human being. Anyone can participate in the story, and hence everyone will have equal chance at gaining a talent by this mechanic. The concept is no different than Jedi in SWG. Your argument is illogical, you'll have to think of some other minor point that really doesn't matter to debate as you don't make any sense.

Deffcon_1 · December 2015

@HabitualFrogStomp
Actually you are the one with flawed logic here. In SWG EVERYONE could have become a Jedi. Its impossible for everyone to get a talent in CoE. That makes them fundamentally different.

Maygus · December 2015

Rhoklaw said:

HabitualFrogStomp said:

StaalBurgher said:

Haha by your own words "may have one". I.e.the majority won't. Jedi was available to everyone guaranteed. You are twisting yourself in knots trying to keep up.

Everyone had equal access to Jedi on SWG just as they will have equal access to talents on this game. By purchasing a soul you will have as much chance to have access to a talent as any other human being. Anyone can participate in the story, and hence everyone will have equal chance at gaining a talent by this mechanic. The concept is no different than Jedi in SWG. Your argument is illogical, you'll have to think of some other minor point that really doesn't matter to debate as you don't make any sense.

As far as I can tell, from what I've read, not every soul will have access to every talent. Souls have predetermined talents available, which are chosen at random. So I'm afraid you are incorrect. Here's a direct quote from DJ#1.

"One of the things that creates a truly unique player experience is that some, but not all the souls in CoE, will have latent abilities known as Talents."

Talents can also be awarded by being close to the core story and/or doing heroic things.

HabitualFrogStomp · December 2015

Deffcon_1 said:

@HabitualFrogStomp
Actually you are the one with flawed logic here. In SWG EVERYONE could have become a Jedi. Its impossible for everyone to get a talent in CoE. That makes them fundamentally different.

Not everyone could have a Jedi in SWG as there were initially many barriers preventing most people from having one. It wasn't until the system was changed that they started to become more common, which is the entire point of the thread.

If you dedicated enough time in SWG you could have jedi. If you spend enough time in the story of CoE you could have a talent. Or you can always buy another soul and hope you get lucky.

Anyone arguing against the point that they are conceptually the same has already failed and eaten crow. Besides the fact that it has absolutely nothing to do with the thread. Something being rare makes it more appealing. Powerful skills being limited to only certain characters make those classes more powerful. You're just arguing that talents are actually alpha classes, as we've already established they are. So any point you're trying to prove is redundant.

I could hypothetically have a talent on day 1 of launch of CoE, if i satisfied the hypothetical random requirements for my soul to gain said talent in this hypothetical game. While it would be impossible for someone to unlock Jedi in SWG in such a way.

So hypothetically talents in CoE are more accessible than Jedi in SOE. As it hypothetically would take 0 grinding in order to have one.

GG.

HabitualFrogStomp · December 2015

Rhoklaw said:

HabitualFrogStomp said:

StaalBurgher said:

Haha by your own words "may have one". I.e.the majority won't. Jedi was available to everyone guaranteed. You are twisting yourself in knots trying to keep up.

Everyone had equal access to Jedi on SWG just as they will have equal access to talents on this game. By purchasing a soul you will have as much chance to have access to a talent as any other human being. Anyone can participate in the story, and hence everyone will have equal chance at gaining a talent by this mechanic. The concept is no different than Jedi in SWG. Your argument is illogical, you'll have to think of some other minor point that really doesn't matter to debate as you don't make any sense.

As far as I can tell, from what I've read, not every soul will have access to every talent. Souls have predetermined talents available, which are chosen at random. So I'm afraid you are incorrect. Here's a direct quote from DJ#1.

"One of the things that creates a truly unique player experience is that some, but not all the souls in CoE, will have latent abilities known as Talents."

You've already been corrected and this was touched on numerous times in this thread already. Stop spreading misinformation. If you're going to fanboi a game, know what you're talking about first.

Thanks.

Deffcon_1 · December 2015

Skills arent limited in CoE at all. I think you are confused. After the change to SWG anyone, and everyone could become a Jedi. This is because its a choice by players to try and become one. Talents are not something players choose. No player can pick to get a talent. There is nothing they can do to make sure they get a talent. That is why its not an alpha class. If they ever changed the system to make it so its possible for players to make decisions to guarantee they get a talent, then youre argument would make sense. But, thats not the case here. Buying a new soul doesnt help you, because you still wont know if that soul has a talent. Its not like souls show if they have a talent or not. A player could buy 1000 souls and unless they play them all they will never know if any of them have a talent.

EDIT: Lets not forget that talents have SEVERE downsides. They are going to have some serious consequences if used out in the open or improperly.

HabitualFrogStomp · December 2015

Deffcon_1 said:

Skills arent limited in CoE at all. I think you are confused. After the change to SWG anyone, and everyone could become a Jedi. This is because its a choice by players to try and become one.

You're confused. Once Jedi became a starter class, it as a result ceased to be an alpha class as designed...because it was a starter class. If you're going to bring up how Jedi was changed in SWG, since such a change was a huge part of the OP, again you're only supporting my argument with facts that were already stated. I do not need your help to prove my point. What I need you to do is remain coherent so that you may type something that's worth responding to.

Deffcon_1 said:

There is nothing they can do to make sure they get a talent. That is why its not an alpha class.

lol No matter how many times this gets explained to you, you're still here banging your head against that wall huh? Being alpha is never something that is assured, whether it is controlled by RNG, or excessive grinding that excludes the majority of the human race, or whatever mechanic you can think of. You just believe that this miraculous system is something different than all those ways of distributing power. It's not. Making power more rare makes it more alpha. If you can't see that I think you deserve to be added to forum ignore, you're clearly a complete waste of my time.

Deffcon_1 said:

If they ever changed the system to make it so its possible for players to make decisions to guarantee they get a talent, then youre argument would make sense.

Good lord son, did you even read the OP?

Is there a single soul here that is capable of providing a decent counter argument to the OP. We're on page 5 now.....

EDIT: Actually I take that back, there have been some that went to great length to explain that they understood the premise and offered reasonable counter points. There have just 3-4 fanbois who have continued to bring up the same tired points again and again. I think the thread has run its course unless someone worthwhile wants to add something to it.

K2SAV · December 2015

So WHAT ARE THE PROBLEMS? can i get a list here? because it seems to me this isn't even addressed properly. What are the issues with alpha classes specifically? I just can't see it from my perspective, someone enlighten me.

Maygus · December 2015

K2SAV said:
So WHAT ARE THE PROBLEMS? can i get a list here? because it seems to me this isn't even addressed properly. What are the issues with alpha classes specifically? I just can't see it from my perspective, someone enlighten me.

Nothing to see here... these are not the droids you are looking for...

---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----

In all seriousness, much hype about something that's still at design phase that's yet to enter alpha stage for player-testing to get direct interaction, feedback and metrics on just how things play-out.

While the comments are suitable, they are at the same time, over-hyped referencing games that have implemented it in different fashions secretly without telling you how... even to the point it wasn't even available at the beginning.

In this case, we're told what it is, what you get (well limited info on specifics for now outside a few scenario's), and a general vibe for it... and we haven't even seen a Design Journal on talents and magic yet. So obviously it's a bad bad thing (/sarcasm).

The dev's are well and truly aware of this fact that some select players per server will be given a massive bonus, and look forward to see how the player-base will respond, but at the same time that bonus comes with equal detractors. There's been snippets released in IRC that haven't been mentioned here as it's through back and forth discussion, and once the design journal is out, we will all have the information we need.

Sadly this isn't sufficient for a select few gamers who are seemingly not developing their own game and equally are the holy ones themselves when it comes to design mechanics that some can even throw out 100 better ideas than COE has designed... yet not have any proof of such concepts outside ramblings on here and disjointed and unstructured replies (not all are like that, but some are). Some of those people have even stated that they are here to crush rather than do anything else...

Timberhick · December 2015

No real number on the 'percentage' of players getting Talents.

No real number on the 'percentage' of players getting Vamprism

No real number on the 'percentage' of players getting Lichdom

No real number on the 'percentage' of players getting Magic

Or if lich, vampire, magic is a 'talent' or not. *Guess magic is now a talent

The other issue is Soulbound doesn't have a firm grasp on what a "talent" is actually going to be. They have ideas and supposes, nothing firm.

The assuming part of Soulbound and their defenders is; Having a talent is going to make you a massive target. Yeah somehow a player able to breathe water is so powerful that whole kingdoms will attack....

Deffcon_1 · December 2015

@Timberhick
They know exactly what a talent is and what a talent isnt. Magic has always been a talent. Lets also remember. This game is still in the early stages of development. So, they dont have exact numbers on how many people will get what, because its a balancing issue that wont be figured out until testing. Lich and vampire have never been talents.

Maygus · December 2015

Timberhick said:

No real number on the 'percentage' of players getting Talents.

Less than 5% of the playerbase...

No real number on the 'percentage' of players getting Vamprism

I believe it begins with 1... but less than 5% of the player-base... unless the entire server embraces vamprism. That will be interesting to see what happens.

No real number on the 'percentage' of players getting Lichdom

I believe there is 1, as the rumour is at this stage... a single relic of old that could do something to give someone a longer life of some description (not verbatim but that's what it boils down to from rumour)

No real number on the 'percentage' of players getting Magic

To have a talent almost always = Magic or so I believe... therefore
Less than 5% of the playerbase...

Or if lich, vampire, magic is a 'talent' or not. *Guess magic is now a talent

Lich/Vamp/Dhampyr are not talents.

Magic is and has always been a talent, or a byproduct of the above.

The other issue is Soulbound doesn't have a firm grasp on what a "talent" is actually going to be. They have ideas and supposes, nothing firm.

They do... they have a list of 100, they have not (and are not obligated) to provide that full list. Sometimes keeping things hidden so we have to discover it is all the better... I imagine talents are going to be awarded based on the activity or goal at hand. If there's something to do with fire as part of a massive quest chain. IE: kill the evil NPC magic user, or defeat some monster that lives in a lair of lava... you will have a chance of proc'ing a Talent related to fire.

This is all hypothesis on my part and a way I would approach it if I was designing something. Rather than you are fighting a couple of heroic battles and BOOM you can suddenly use ice magic... while in the middle of a forest.

The logic of attaining that talent just doesn't seem right from a story-book perspective of what I have read in stories in the past.

The assuming part of Soulbound and their defenders is; Having a talent is going to make you a massive target. Yeah somehow a player able to breathe water is so powerful that whole kingdoms will attack....

We don't know just what breathing under water entails... could be water breathing is a by-product of having a magical talent that involves water. There-by practicing such arts will attract the attention of those that would seek to remove you from the world due to your evil abilities.

Caspian also often refers to things in the viewpoint of what an Elyrian knows, this is done deliberately to keep us on our toes and prevent us from digging too much information from him too early. Unlike combat we've ended up deducing for the most part how it works, as admitted in IRC from Caspian himself, which now any questions in/around that he literally avoids all possible answers even from an Elyrian viewpoint to stop us extracting the information. A lot is how a few of us suspected, some nuggets of gold on how things relate to each other makes it very interesting though and cannot wait to get some play-time on it during testing.

GeezerGamer · December 2015

The problem with the Jedi in SWG wasn't that the class was "alpha". In its own way, that' in itself is a form of progression, as long as the possibility is open to all players equally. The problem with the Jedi in SWG was that the Meta couldn't support what was happening as a result. Too many players becoming Jedi ruined the balance of the interaction between professions in the game. The fact that Jedi were stronger was actually nice in that even after you hit end game, you could work to something new.

Timberhick · December 2015

Maygus said:

We don't know.

Cutting out all the suppose to be, assumptions, and clutter and we get to the heart of it.

Timberhick · December 2015

I know quite a bit about the game already. I find it odd that people come here saying one thing while Soulbound says another. When challenged about this we get responses like

"Speculation is a bit heavy on your end though as we've explained quite a bit about the game, despite your ignorance to acknowledge this"

Maygus · December 2015

Timberhick said:

Maygus said:

We don't know.

Cutting out all the suppose to be, assumptions, and clutter and we get to the heart of it.

You must be a journalist... quoting out of context.

Timberhick · December 2015

Did you not notice all of your "I believes", "I don't knows", "this is all my hypothesis" in your post?
I'll post one of the big issues with Talents in CoE. This is straight from Soulbound Studios fingertips

[Soulbound Studios]

A talented player enters the arena. He wins. End of story.

After which he's mobbed by the entire town and killed... repeatedly. Now one of maybe 1,000 people in a population of 100,000 that actually had a Talent is dead. Whatever their role in the story was supposed to be, and whatever they were destined to do, will go undone. The entire server is rocked by the effect of the Talented's death.

A few talented players decide to establish a guild. Others see the advantage of joining such guild and soon, that guild controls the server. End of story.

...because guilds never have drama or turn on each other. While it's theoretically possible that a dozen or so, or even a hundred of the ~1,000 Talented on the entire server - which takes days real-time to cross, would somehow find each other and band together... it's almost impossible to imagine them being able to work together without drama. What happens when they break apart? A divided guild of Talented...

Then he notice a talented player flying towards the location, or teleporting to it. He takes the treasure, leaving our less talented hero speechless.

I'm sure the flying beasts would have something to say about the flying hero. Also, you tell the tail of the flying hero. You create a rumor about him and soon all the PCs and NPCs are looking for him. He's potentially outed and must don a disguise when maneuvering through towns.

the current talent system is a big red flag.

You don't actually know anything about the current Talent system, so I'd stop stressing over it. Just because players can use their Talents doesn't mean they'll want to, or it's worth it.

What makes you think that having a Talent is really all that it's cracked up to be? Ever heard "Be careful what you wish for...?"

Maygus · December 2015

Timberhick said:

<snip>

So what's the issue?
I've read that, I understand it, the dev's obviously know the impact to the world this could happen... so...

I'm still to understand the issue... that you and 2 other's are so expert at, yet cannot structure a logical solution to this only negativity or scenario's that are way off mark. Even the implementation method and design are different and the potential outcomes are well and truly known by the dev's and welcomed.

But as with all games in development by small indie dev's... you have to wait until play-testing before true balancing of any feature can happen to whatever extent is required.

Howdy, Stranger!

so this game has "alpha classes"

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

so this game has "alpha classes"

Comments