but yet people have been making their own versions of star wars universe and tales for over 15 years .... and havent once been threatened or been shut down ....
is making a movie in tribute of something someone else did stealing? no... so making a game in tribute of an old game that you loved therefore is not stealing...
end of argument...
now everyone either go play NGE or wait like the rest of us for SWG pre-CU
Originally posted by LAW! Way to dodge the question ICO!
I'm a fan of irony too. ^_^
The difference between little Billy and the SWG Emulator project isn't only scale of copy but also scale of distribution. If little Billy had made multiple copies of his Darth Vader picture and distributed them, there may be case that he's infringed on copyrights, denoting theft. Is LEA going to go after little Billy, no, but they may reserve the right to.
Once a copy extends past personal use, it extends past Fair Use. I'm sure the folks at Napster can fill you in on that principle.
That aside, I believe a reasonable person can make the distinction between a little kid drawing a picture of Darth Vader and stealing software.
Please refer to the case I linked in my previous post. The SWG Emulator isn't making a copy of the client, which the user owns, but the server software and technology. One could make an argument that each time you use the client to log-on to one of these servers, you're breaking the EULA that you agree to with each use.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by LAW! Way to dodge the question ICO!
I'm a fan of irony too. ^_^
The difference between little Billy and the SWG Emulator project isn't only scale of copy but also scale of distribution. If little Billy had made multiple copies of his Darth Vader picture and distributed them, there may be case that he's infringed on copyrights, denoting theft. Is LEA going to go after little Billy, no, but they may reserve the right to.
Once a copy extends past personal use, it extends past Fair Use. I'm sure the folks at Napster can fill you in on that principle.
That aside, I believe a reasonable person can make the distinction between a little kid drawing a picture of Darth Vader and stealing software.
Please refer to the case I linked in my previous post. The SWG Emulator isn't making a copy of the client, which the user owns, but the server software and technology. One could make an argument that each time you use the client to log-on to one of these servers, you're breaking the EULA that you agree to with each use.
Read the thread....
If would have taken the time to read the whole thread, instead of the bits and pieces that make you feel all warm and fuzzy, you would have known the that garbage about the 8th circuit was covered and debunkedfour daysago! Welcome to the thread buddy! Now try reading all the thread before you post. When you don't read, you come off looking like a Jackass.
As for little Billy...so what your saying is, it's OK if billy steals a little, but it's bad if he steals alot? Who decides when Billy has taken too much? lets say billy went to the copy machine and made multiple copies and not only gave one to mom, but his entire class as a Christmass gift....Does that make him a criminal? Do we call out SWAT and hunt down the little thug now? Has Billy now stolen enough from Mr.Lucas yet? Can we charge him and send this criminal master mind to Jail now? You seem tobe able to speak on SOE and LAs behalf...so tell us...Is little Billy now guilty of riping-off LA?
Billy... has RECREATED Lucas Arts IP and distributed it without permission.... If it's OK for Billy to do it, than why not anyone else? Who determines when the line has been crossed...you? I think not...lol.
The truth is, the SWG EMU will go forward regardless of your narrow minded opinion. WHY? Because no onecares what you think...Because a SWG EMU is not illegal...It never has been and it never will. Show me ANYWHERE that it says a "SWG EMU" is UNLAWFUL. Show me any official document or court order that says..."THE SWG EMU team must stop their work on an EMULATOR"...You can't! WHY?...because no such ruling exsists.
It's time to face the facts Son...Your opinion is NOT the Law of the land.
Originally posted by LAW! Way to dodge the question ICO!
OK...let me make certain your position. It's not stealing unless a bunch of people do it? AND who determines "Fair Use"? In my opinion the SWG EMU is "fair use!" ....Could it be someones POINT of VEIW that makes such determinations?....(RIGHT AND WRONG ARE POINTS OF VIEW)From your POINT of VEIW, you say it's ok for billy to Rape the LA IP! How do you know it's ok with Lucas Arts for billy to behave in this way. How do you know SOE and LA even care about an EMU? How could you possibly know...are you now saying that you now speak for the entire SONY and Lucas Arts Media Empire? The bottom line is... A SWG EMU is no more wrong than than the 5 year old recreating an image of Darth Vader and giving the image away. It's as simple as that. This is why there are many EMUs up and running with no legal problems. This is also why the SWG EMU project will go forward and THIS IS WHY SOE and LA will do nothing to stop them. It is not illegal to build and run a SWG EMU!
Hey LAW, as soon as you get the actual right to determine what is and isn't proper use of lucas's IP, then you may say what is and isn't a violation of copyright law.
And for God's sake, why do you make quarter 4 of 2007 sound like it's just a few days away? It's over 15 months away, and that's as fast as your 'emu fanboi' self will admit to; although anyone who tries to argue with you is obviously a huge nge supporter and a sony fanboi.....
So, my neighbor smokes a lot of pot. I mean a LOT. It must be legal, since no one has arrested him yet. Or is it maybe that he doesn't advertise that fact, and frankly the police could care less if he does it and no one is harmed by what he inhales in his god-ugly living room?
If any emu server is setup for public consumption, they will be nailed. Want links to legal briefs in similar cases of online IP theft? Although, as many here already have pointed out, blatantly using someone elses IP and the game code to deliver it into their homes is petty theft at best.
Try writing a Harry Potter novel, with the same characters and settings as a previous one, and getting it published. 'But anyone who has bought the book has a right to those characters!' you say? No, it doesn't. Just like havign to pay for cable TV doesn't give you any right to make your own episodes of Band of Brothers or OZ.
Same with an emu of swg; purchasing the game does not entitle you to make your own copy of the game to run as you see fit. It really doesn't. The emu you want so bad, made by those dev wannabes with an ego trip, might be made in someone's basement for their close friends only, but it will never be the public emu you are talking about now.
When you claim that we don't have the right to speak on behalf of Sony and Lucasfilm, you are right; just as you aren't entitled to speak on behalf of both the Congress and the judicial branch when it comes to copyright law and it's enforcement.
Meh, I'm sure you will just cut and paste your past arguements into any response here. Apperantely, Congress needs to pass a law against making a SWG emu server, as standard boiler-plate copyright laws don't apply in your world LAW!
Good luck getting your emu game; I mean that honestly. I'd love to play on it myself. But I realize that it won't happen unless sony makes classic servers, due to both legal and tech issues.
Put up or shut up here. Bark bark bark; little doggie, you gonna bite? I'm guessing not, but we will get a 'how can this EQ emu survive even though 'I can't tell you where it is, just trust me' kind of crap that you have spewed.
here you go buddy.... this one site has all of it servers emu's and all the games please look specifically at each of the MMO/MPOG a couple are just links to fan sites but you will be very overwhelmed...
So tell me...IS EVERYONE WRONG BUT YOU Jand? Who gave you the right to decide what is right for the entire world? while your thinking about it check out the link...lol. Tell me why all these emulators are still up and running. If it is so illegal WHY then, can these guys get away with it?
Try writing a Harry Potter novel, with the same characters and settings as a previous one, and getting it published. 'But anyone who has bought the book has a right to those characters!' you say? No, it doesn't. Just like havign to pay for cable TV doesn't give you any right to make your own episodes of Band of Brothers or OZ. Same with an emu of swg; purchasing the game does not entitle you to make your own copy of the game to run as you see fit. It really doesn't. The emu you want so bad, made by those dev wannabes with an ego trip, might be made in someone's basement for their close friends only, but it will never be the public emu you are talking about now. When you claim that we don't have the right to speak on behalf of Sony and Lucasfilm, you are right; just as you aren't entitled to speak on behalf of both the Congress and the judicial branch when it comes to copyright law and it's enforcement.
Actually, you are allowed to write your own fan fiction about characters you find in other's publications. Same as TV shows. You are allowed to create your own version of those TV shows. You're just not allowed to benefit from it financially, at all.
The analogies you used just don't work. It's not the same. If you make your own fan fiction, you're not taking business away from the original author. People who are already obssessed fans will enjoy, only after becoming attached to the characters from the original book(s). It's the same for TV shows. It is NOT the same for emus. If you make a "fan" server of a game, you will take business away from the company who "deserves" it, and they will lose profit. Then they'll be coming after your ass, if they can find you.
So yes, emus are far from legal. But it can be done. It can become popular. And I believe that it may be happening. Good luck, pre-NGE fans.
It's not stealing unless a bunch of people do it? AND who determines "Fair Use"? In my opinion the SWG EMU is "fair use!" ....Could it be someones POINT of VEIW that makes such determinations?....(RIGHT AND WRONG ARE POINTS OF VIEW)From your POINT of VEIW, you say it's ok for billy to Rape the LA IP! How do you know it's ok with Lucas Arts for billy to behave in this way.
How do you know SOE and LA even care about an EMU? How could you possibly know...are you now saying that you now speak for the entire SONY and Lucas Arts Media Empire?
The bottom line is...
A SWG EMU is no more wrong than than the 5 year old recreating an image of Darth Vader and giving the image away. It's as simple as that. This is why there are many EMUs up and running with no legal problems. This is also why the SWG EMU project will go forward and THIS IS WHY SOE and LA will do nothing to stop them.
It is not illegal to build and run a SWG EMU!
Hey LAW, as soon as you get the actual right to determine what is and isn't proper use of lucas's IP, then you may say what is and isn't a violation of copyright law.
OK Smart guy...tell me who determines this "proper use of Lucas Arts IP" ? Just how do you know what a violation is?...You don't...You don't have a right to make such judgements! Stop pretending like you do!
And for God's sake, why do you make quarter 4 of 2007 sound like it's just a few days away? It's over 15 months away, and that's as fast as your 'emu fanboi' self will admit to; although anyone who tries to argue with you is obviously a huge nge supporter and a sony fanboi.....
Spoken like a person who has no clue what the hell they are talking about....lol
15 months is a very short time to build an MMORPG from the ground up. If you look at some of the most anticipated MMOs on this very site you will see some of them are in fact YEARS away. A perfect example is STO due out in 2008!
Son, you would be well served by doing a little research before posting on topics you don't understand.
So, my neighbor smokes a lot of pot. I mean a LOT. It must be legal, since no one has arrested him yet. Or is it maybe that he doesn't advertise that fact, and frankly the police could care less if he does it and no one is harmed by what he inhales in his god-ugly living room?
I'm begining to think you are the..."neighbor"
OK...The fatal flaw in your argument here..."POT" is illegal! The US Government has a Law that applies specifically to "POT". The US Government has NO law that applies specifically to a SWG EMU. Get your facts together Son.
BTW...In MOST places around the world, "POT" is very much legal to use.
If any emu server is setup for public consumption, they will be nailed. Want links to legal briefs in similar cases of online IP theft? Although, as many here already have pointed out, blatantly using someone elses IP and the game code to deliver it into their homes is petty theft at best.
Hey genius...SEE THE ABOVE POST.
There are many EMUs setup for public consumption. Guess what, they are not being nailed to the wall. In fact the are growing. It is not IP theft...WHY...because no such law exsists. Stop trying to MAKE UP shit as you go...it's getting sad!
Try writing a Harry Potter novel, with the same characters and settings as a previous one, and getting it published. 'But anyone who has bought the book has a right to those characters!' you say? No, it doesn't. Just like havign to pay for cable TV doesn't give you any right to make your own episodes of Band of Brothers or OZ.
NEWSFLASH:THIS IS ALREADY HAPPENING EVERYWHERE...ALL THE TIME! AND IT'S NOT ILLEGAL...ROFL...It's called fan fiction.
Same with an emu of swg; purchasing the game does not entitle you to make your own copy of the game to run as you see fit. It really doesn't. The emu you want so bad, made by those dev wannabes with an ego trip, might be made in someone's basement for their close friends only, but it will never be the public emu you are talking about now.
The EMU will be released soon enough...and it is not illegal
When you claim that we don't have the right to speak on behalf of Sony and Lucasfilm, you are right; just as you aren't entitled to speak on behalf of both the Congress and the judicial branch when it comes to copyright law and it's enforcement.
You are right and wrong here...
YOU have Absolutley no say in the private business dealings of LA or SOE. You do not know what is acceptable or unaccecptable from an IP standpoint. You do not speck for them nor represent their veiws in any way, shape, or form. In fact you have no Idea what you are talking about....You can't even defend your own position, let alone the views of major media empires like SONY and Lucas Arts.
BTW...I am a tax paying registered voter here in the US...I do have a right to speak my views when it comes to the Laws of the United States. In the US, the Government is appointed by the people, for the people. You should visit sometime!
Meh, I'm sure you will just cut and paste your past arguements into any response here. Apperantely, Congress needs to pass a law against making a SWG emu server, as standard boiler-plate copyright laws don't apply in your world LAW!
YES!!! THEY DO NEED TO PASS A LAW...WHY...BECAUSE IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO BUILD AND RUN A SWG EMU!
This is the way it works in the US courts...Things of this nature are judged on a case by case basis. Until a case of this nature goes to court, no one knows if other laws my or my not apply to this particular case...NOT EVEN YOU!!!
Good luck getting your emu game; I mean that honestly. I'd love to play on it myself. But I realize that it won't happen unless sony makes classic servers, due to both legal and tech issues.
Try writing a Harry Potter novel, with the same characters and settings as a previous one, and getting it published. 'But anyone who has bought the book has a right to those characters!' you say? No, it doesn't. Just like havign to pay for cable TV doesn't give you any right to make your own episodes of Band of Brothers or OZ. Same with an emu of swg; purchasing the game does not entitle you to make your own copy of the game to run as you see fit. It really doesn't. The emu you want so bad, made by those dev wannabes with an ego trip, might be made in someone's basement for their close friends only, but it will never be the public emu you are talking about now. When you claim that we don't have the right to speak on behalf of Sony and Lucasfilm, you are right; just as you aren't entitled to speak on behalf of both the Congress and the judicial branch when it comes to copyright law and it's enforcement. Actually, you are allowed to write your own fan fiction about characters you find in other's publications. Same as TV shows. You are allowed to create your own version of those TV shows. You're just not allowed to benefit from it financially, at all.
The analogies you used just don't work. It's not the same. If you make your own fan fiction, you're not taking business away from the original author. People who are already obssessed fans will enjoy, only after becoming attached to the characters from the original book(s). It's the same for TV shows. It is NOT the same for emus. If you make a "fan" server of a game, you will take business away from the company who "deserves" it, and they will lose profit. Then they'll be coming after your ass, if they can find you.
So yes, emus are far from legal. But it can be done. It can become popular. And I believe that it may be happening. Good luck, pre-NGE fans.
Originally posted by LAW! Read the thread.... If would have taken the time to read the whole thread, instead of the bits and pieces that make you feel all warm and fuzzy, you would have known the that garbage about the 8th circuit was covered and debunked four days ago! Welcome to the thread buddy! Now try reading all the thread before you post. When you don't read, you come off looking like a Jackass.
Lol, I did read the thread, and you didn't debunk anything. You just choose not believe the one applicable case cited.
BTW, I wouldn't put too much faith in the 9th Circuit Court. They tend to be overturned, just a little.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by LAW! Read the thread.... If would have taken the time to read the whole thread, instead of the bits and pieces that make you feel all warm and fuzzy, you would have known the that garbage about the 8th circuit was covered and debunked four days ago! Welcome to the thread buddy! Now try reading all the thread before you post. When you don't read, you come off looking like a Jackass.
Lol, I did read the thread, and you didn't debunk anything. You just choose not believe the one applicable case cited.
BTW, I wouldn't put too much faith in the 9th Circuit Court. They tend to be overturned, just a little.
Oh yeah... AND the 8th Circuit has NEVER been overturned....RIGHT?
Originally posted by IcoGames There's an easy test. Start handing out cracked versions of XP to all your friends for free, and tell Microsoft you're doing it. I'm sure Bill won't mind. If you don't think either SOE or LA wouldn't go after an emulator, you're foolish.
Woohoo for cracked copies of XP!!!! I'm running one right now. F-you Bill lol.
[url=www.angry-gamers.net][sigpic] By katanomega at 2009-03-11[/sigpic][/url]
Originally posted by Iocco7015 Let these threads stop already, the EMU is going to happen nothing the fanboi's can do about it. I will be playing pre-cu again whether its through SOE or the EMU. WoWemu works as does the EQ one so stfu fanboi's and go back to your game.
The Emulator is going to be out WAY before Q4 `07 in some form... Now, they can't exactly give a hard ETA, they haven't finished reverse engineering the packets yet, but from what I've gathered, they are getting close, and once that is done and they can actually insert their characters into their server in what they call "sandbox" (you can run around inside SWG but not do anything) adding the rest will come far quicker.
Indeed, there are other emulator devs already working on that stuff.
My gut tells me we have some form of the emulator by the end of summer, with prehaps fully functional ones before winter
Yeah, its seems as if the packets are the sticky point. Looks like their whole team is working hard on it. I wouldn't venture a time frame until they crack that nut. Wildcat84 is right though - after they get over that hump - rest is pretty much easy.
Now what helped the WoWemu considerably was when they made the code open source and invited the public to help. Next thing you knew - people had the addons for the banks, honor systems, mounts and such - all the while the core group could work on stability. Something that would hurry up the time table on SWG for certain...
But alas, the topic of the thread is about the legality. I am not a lawyer nor a judge nor does anything that I do carry any weight on such decisions. Such battles will occur and at that time we will know for sure. Though I am pretty positive that even if proven illegal - it will carry on in some form. This horse has been beaten into elmers and the main personalities in this thread's fight aren't going to change on another's mind nor one up the other with a magical bullet for had anyone of the people of the web had such a weapon at thier disposal - it would have been brought up witihin the first three replies in a link to about 30 other threads where it (the bullet) had been debated in a circular fashion until the thread was closed or buried due to lack of giving a damn.
Interesting read though. Now where's the afterparty?
The SWGEMU guys have already stated that once they get the packets reverse engineered and have it to the point you can get characters loaded into the world they are going to open source.
Once they get past this current problem which is the toughest part, the rest will happen a lot faster.
As for the legality, NO emulator has ever been shut down. So long as you don't sell a subscription service and don't pirate the client (ie: end users have bought a legal copy of SWG) and you don't steal code (the server is being written from scratch), you aren't violating anyone's copyright.
Originally posted by royalpenalty hopefully SOE will try to sue the emu, then all their dirty secrets about the CU and NGE will come out and possbily lead to a class action.
All the more reason why SOE would likely be reluctant to sue. Not that they won't bluster and send some nastygrams (assuming they can even locate the authors), but a SOE lawsuit vs someone wanting to be able to play the pre-CU version of the game (which the user bought and paid for) who had to resort to an emulator because SOE refuses to provide pre-CU servers is walking into a potential minefield.
It could set a court precedent that would restrain SOE and other MMO makers from making CUNGE type changes to persistent world games... No way they want to risk that. They've already had the press bash them to death over that, and it would crank up again if they sued. They have a bad enough public image as it is.
I think it's far more likely that SOE would take the steam out of the SWGEMU playerbase by offering pre-CU servers, which 90% of those who would play the emulator would prefer (myself included).
Originally posted by Wildcat84 As for the legality, NO emulator has ever been shut down. So long as you don't sell a subscription service and don't pirate the client (ie: end users have bought a legal copy of SWG) and you don't steal code (the server is being written from scratch), you aren't violating anyone's copyright.
I think you are forgetting LucasArts in that statement. They would also need to remove all mention of Star Wars material to completely avoid violating LA's copyright.
If they don't charge for playing, they are probably safe.
SOE doesn't care about the EMU because it is no real threat to SOE. It will not reduce those who are playing the NGE (because it is completely different) and if it does start to draw from people playing they can always open their own Pre-CU servers (as has been stated many times in this thread). They will have the hardware to support many more players than a "non-profit" emulation can compete with. Finally, if the emulation still shows signs of hurting SOE, then the option for a lawsuit might be opened.
LucasArts probably won't care either, so long as the emulation doesn't show Luke having sex with Darth Vader or some other thing like that. The big reason they won't care is that the emulation likely will only have a couple hundred people playing and won't be worth their time to sue. You can be certain that if the emulation becomes overly popular LA will bring out the big guns and strike it down.
Personally, I doubt that the emulation will be great so I think they will probably not need to worry about a lawsuit.
Why would either SOE or LEC have PR issues suing over an emulator? Considering the bad PR generated by the NGE already, I don't think a lawsuit would do any further damage, if any.
From SOE/LA's perspective, someone is stealing their work. Bands that supported the suit against Napster didn't really take that much of a PR hit, even Metallica. Maybe they did initially, but I can't recall any of those bands going out of business over the Napster case.
I don't think any reasonable person would fault a company for trying to protect its investments.
Ico Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Originally posted by KenshuAni Originally posted by Wildcat84 As for the legality, NO emulator has ever been shut down. So long as you don't sell a subscription service and don't pirate the client (ie: end users have bought a legal copy of SWG) and you don't steal code (the server is being written from scratch), you aren't violating anyone's copyright.
I think you are forgetting LucasArts in that statement. They would also need to remove all mention of Star Wars material to completely avoid violating LA's copyright.
If they don't charge for playing, they are probably safe.
SOE doesn't care about the EMU because it is no real threat to SOE. It will not reduce those who are playing the NGE (because it is completely different) and if it does start to draw from people playing they can always open their own Pre-CU servers (as has been stated many times in this thread). They will have the hardware to support many more players than a "non-profit" emulation can compete with. Finally, if the emulation still shows signs of hurting SOE, then the option for a lawsuit might be opened.
LucasArts probably won't care either, so long as the emulation doesn't show Luke having sex with Darth Vader or some other thing like that. The big reason they won't care is that the emulation likely will only have a couple hundred people playing and won't be worth their time to sue. You can be certain that if the emulation becomes overly popular LA will bring out the big guns and strike it down.
Personally, I doubt that the emulation will be great so I think they will probably not need to worry about a lawsuit.
The Star Wars IP is in the client, not on the server. If they pirate the copyrited Star Wars material in the client, LEC would have a suit.
The material is in the client, etc. If you buy a copy of the client from LEC you own a license to that content to run that client.
All the emulator is is the same thing the SOE servers are: A huge, interactive database that talks to the clients, most stuff happens on the client side, the server is nothing more than a huge database that collects the results.
The emulator is really nothing more than another noncommercial Star Wars fan project just like those who mod KOTOR or who make fan films. There is nothing illegal about it.
Originally posted by Wildcat84 Originally posted by KenshuAni Originally posted by Wildcat84 As for the legality, NO emulator has ever been shut down. So long as you don't sell a subscription service and don't pirate the client (ie: end users have bought a legal copy of SWG) and you don't steal code (the server is being written from scratch), you aren't violating anyone's copyright.
I think you are forgetting LucasArts in that statement. They would also need to remove all mention of Star Wars material to completely avoid violating LA's copyright.
If they don't charge for playing, they are probably safe.
SOE doesn't care about the EMU because it is no real threat to SOE. It will not reduce those who are playing the NGE (because it is completely different) and if it does start to draw from people playing they can always open their own Pre-CU servers (as has been stated many times in this thread). They will have the hardware to support many more players than a "non-profit" emulation can compete with. Finally, if the emulation still shows signs of hurting SOE, then the option for a lawsuit might be opened.
LucasArts probably won't care either, so long as the emulation doesn't show Luke having sex with Darth Vader or some other thing like that. The big reason they won't care is that the emulation likely will only have a couple hundred people playing and won't be worth their time to sue. You can be certain that if the emulation becomes overly popular LA will bring out the big guns and strike it down.
Personally, I doubt that the emulation will be great so I think they will probably not need to worry about a lawsuit.
The Star Wars IP is in the client, not on the server. If they pirate the copyrited Star Wars material in the client, LEC would have a suit.
The material is in the client, etc. If you buy a copy of the client from LEC you own a license to that content to run that client.
All the emulator is is the same thing the SOE servers are: A huge, interactive database that talks to the clients, most stuff happens on the client side, the server is nothing more than a huge database that collects the results.
The emulator is really nothing more than another noncommercial Star Wars fan project just like those who mod KOTOR or who make fan films. There is nothing illegal about it.
Lucas sued a film that resembled Star Wars. It did not include actual copyright material in it. Do you truly think that LA cares whether their IP is client side or not? The server can tell the client to have Luke and Darth Vader /deepkiss (or whatever that emote was) just outside of the Mos Eisley starport.
The thing to note in this case was that LA ended up losing the lawsuit (no copyright material was used) but cost the company distributing the parody a lot of money (a countersuit was filed for $140 million dollars).
Now this was a commercial venture, so will be different from the emulation. But if LA decides that the emulation is a threat, which I don't think it will ever be, they would not hesitate to file a lawsuit. Likely, if they ever did file a lawsuit, it would effectively kill the emulation since they would have to rely on donations from their fans to fund their defense.
Any EMU of a product such as EQ or SWG would loose in an internation court of law, however if the EMU is made and operated in a country that is not part of the WTO for example for the most part there is nothing that can be done at all, the EMU could operate fully with no possible law suit or being forced to shut down.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
Comments
I'm a fan of irony too. ^_^
The difference between little Billy and the SWG Emulator project isn't only scale of copy but also scale of distribution. If little Billy had made multiple copies of his Darth Vader picture and distributed them, there may be case that he's infringed on copyrights, denoting theft. Is LEA going to go after little Billy, no, but they may reserve the right to.
Once a copy extends past personal use, it extends past Fair Use. I'm sure the folks at Napster can fill you in on that principle.
That aside, I believe a reasonable person can make the distinction between a little kid drawing a picture of Darth Vader and stealing software.
Please refer to the case I linked in my previous post. The SWG Emulator isn't making a copy of the client, which the user owns, but the server software and technology. One could make an argument that each time you use the client to log-on to one of these servers, you're breaking the EULA that you agree to with each use.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I'm a fan of irony too. ^_^
The difference between little Billy and the SWG Emulator project isn't only scale of copy but also scale of distribution. If little Billy had made multiple copies of his Darth Vader picture and distributed them, there may be case that he's infringed on copyrights, denoting theft. Is LEA going to go after little Billy, no, but they may reserve the right to.
Once a copy extends past personal use, it extends past Fair Use. I'm sure the folks at Napster can fill you in on that principle.
That aside, I believe a reasonable person can make the distinction between a little kid drawing a picture of Darth Vader and stealing software.
Please refer to the case I linked in my previous post. The SWG Emulator isn't making a copy of the client, which the user owns, but the server software and technology. One could make an argument that each time you use the client to log-on to one of these servers, you're breaking the EULA that you agree to with each use.
Read the thread....
If would have taken the time to read the whole thread, instead of the bits and pieces that make you feel all warm and fuzzy, you would have known the that garbage about the 8th circuit was covered and debunked four days ago! Welcome to the thread buddy! Now try reading all the thread before you post. When you don't read, you come off looking like a Jackass.
As for little Billy...so what your saying is, it's OK if billy steals a little, but it's bad if he steals alot? Who decides when Billy has taken too much? lets say billy went to the copy machine and made multiple copies and not only gave one to mom, but his entire class as a Christmass gift....Does that make him a criminal? Do we call out SWAT and hunt down the little thug now? Has Billy now stolen enough from Mr.Lucas yet? Can we charge him and send this criminal master mind to Jail now? You seem to be able to speak on SOE and LAs behalf...so tell us...Is little Billy now guilty of riping-off LA?
Billy... has RECREATED Lucas Arts IP and distributed it without permission.... If it's OK for Billy to do it, than why not anyone else? Who determines when the line has been crossed...you? I think not...lol.
The truth is, the SWG EMU will go forward regardless of your narrow minded opinion. WHY? Because no one cares what you think...Because a SWG EMU is not illegal...It never has been and it never will. Show me ANYWHERE that it says a "SWG EMU" is UNLAWFUL. Show me any official document or court order that says..."THE SWG EMU team must stop their work on an EMULATOR"...You can't! WHY?...because no such ruling exsists.
It's time to face the facts Son...Your opinion is NOT the Law of the land.
Hey LAW, as soon as you get the actual right to determine what is and isn't proper use of lucas's IP, then you may say what is and isn't a violation of copyright law.
And for God's sake, why do you make quarter 4 of 2007 sound like it's just a few days away? It's over 15 months away, and that's as fast as your 'emu fanboi' self will admit to; although anyone who tries to argue with you is obviously a huge nge supporter and a sony fanboi.....
So, my neighbor smokes a lot of pot. I mean a LOT. It must be legal, since no one has arrested him yet. Or is it maybe that he doesn't advertise that fact, and frankly the police could care less if he does it and no one is harmed by what he inhales in his god-ugly living room?
If any emu server is setup for public consumption, they will be nailed. Want links to legal briefs in similar cases of online IP theft? Although, as many here already have pointed out, blatantly using someone elses IP and the game code to deliver it into their homes is petty theft at best.
Try writing a Harry Potter novel, with the same characters and settings as a previous one, and getting it published. 'But anyone who has bought the book has a right to those characters!' you say? No, it doesn't. Just like havign to pay for cable TV doesn't give you any right to make your own episodes of Band of Brothers or OZ.
Same with an emu of swg; purchasing the game does not entitle you to make your own copy of the game to run as you see fit. It really doesn't. The emu you want so bad, made by those dev wannabes with an ego trip, might be made in someone's basement for their close friends only, but it will never be the public emu you are talking about now.
When you claim that we don't have the right to speak on behalf of Sony and Lucasfilm, you are right; just as you aren't entitled to speak on behalf of both the Congress and the judicial branch when it comes to copyright law and it's enforcement.
Meh, I'm sure you will just cut and paste your past arguements into any response here. Apperantely, Congress needs to pass a law against making a SWG emu server, as standard boiler-plate copyright laws don't apply in your world LAW!
Good luck getting your emu game; I mean that honestly. I'd love to play on it myself. But I realize that it won't happen unless sony makes classic servers, due to both legal and tech issues.
http://www.gamesites200.com/
ROFL....NICE ONE!
Check it out boys!
You never responed to this post...WHY?
So tell me...IS EVERYONE WRONG BUT YOU Jand? Who gave you the right to decide what is right for the entire world? while your thinking about it check out the link...lol. Tell me why all these emulators are still up and running. If it is so illegal WHY then, can these guys get away with it?
bark, bark!
Try writing a Harry
Potter novel, with the same characters and settings as a previous one,
and getting it published. 'But anyone who has bought the book has a
right to those characters!' you say? No, it doesn't. Just like havign
to pay for cable TV doesn't give you any right to make your own
episodes of Band of Brothers or OZ.
Same with an emu of
swg; purchasing the game does not entitle you to make your own copy of
the game to run as you see fit. It really doesn't. The emu you want
so bad, made by those dev wannabes with an ego trip, might be made in
someone's basement for their close friends only, but it will never be
the public emu you are talking about now.
When you claim that we
don't have the right to speak on behalf of Sony and Lucasfilm, you are
right; just as you aren't entitled to speak on behalf of both the
Congress and the judicial branch when it comes to copyright law and
it's enforcement.
Actually, you are allowed to write your own fan fiction about
characters you find in other's publications. Same as TV shows. You are
allowed to create your own version of those TV shows. You're just not
allowed to benefit from it financially, at all.
The analogies you used just don't work. It's not the same. If you make
your own fan fiction, you're not taking business away from the original
author. People who are already obssessed fans will enjoy, only after
becoming attached to the characters from the original book(s). It's the
same for TV shows. It is NOT the same for emus. If you make a "fan"
server of a game, you will take business away from the company who
"deserves" it, and they will lose profit. Then they'll be coming after
your ass, if they can find you.
So yes, emus are far from legal. But it can be done. It can become popular. And I believe that it may be happening. Good luck, pre-NGE fans.
Try writing a Harry Potter novel, with the same characters and settings as a previous one, and getting it published. 'But anyone who has bought the book has a right to those characters!' you say? No, it doesn't. Just like havign to pay for cable TV doesn't give you any right to make your own episodes of Band of Brothers or OZ.
Same with an emu of swg; purchasing the game does not entitle you to make your own copy of the game to run as you see fit. It really doesn't. The emu you want so bad, made by those dev wannabes with an ego trip, might be made in someone's basement for their close friends only, but it will never be the public emu you are talking about now.
When you claim that we don't have the right to speak on behalf of Sony and Lucasfilm, you are right; just as you aren't entitled to speak on behalf of both the Congress and the judicial branch when it comes to copyright law and it's enforcement.
Actually, you are allowed to write your own fan fiction about characters you find in other's publications. Same as TV shows. You are allowed to create your own version of those TV shows. You're just not allowed to benefit from it financially, at all.
The analogies you used just don't work. It's not the same. If you make your own fan fiction, you're not taking business away from the original author. People who are already obssessed fans will enjoy, only after becoming attached to the characters from the original book(s). It's the same for TV shows. It is NOT the same for emus. If you make a "fan" server of a game, you will take business away from the company who "deserves" it, and they will lose profit. Then they'll be coming after your ass, if they can find you.
So yes, emus are far from legal. But it can be done. It can become popular. And I believe that it may be happening. Good luck, pre-NGE fans.
Lol, I did read the thread, and you didn't debunk anything. You just choose not believe the one applicable case cited.
BTW, I wouldn't put too much faith in the 9th Circuit Court. They tend to be overturned, just a little.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Lol, I did read the thread, and you didn't debunk anything. You just choose not believe the one applicable case cited.
BTW, I wouldn't put too much faith in the 9th Circuit Court. They tend to be overturned, just a little.
Oh yeah... AND the 8th Circuit has NEVER been overturned....RIGHT?
[url=www.angry-gamers.net][sigpic]
By katanomega at 2009-03-11[/sigpic][/url]
Lol, at least KatanOmega can admit he's stealing. ^_^
Yeah, Napster had a good run too. I'm sure the SWG Emulator Project will have the same results.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Indeed, there are other emulator devs already working on that stuff.
My gut tells me we have some form of the emulator by the end of summer, with prehaps fully functional ones before winter
Yeah, its seems as if the packets are the sticky point. Looks like their whole team is working hard on it. I wouldn't venture a time frame until they crack that nut. Wildcat84 is right though - after they get over that hump - rest is pretty much easy.
Now what helped the WoWemu considerably was when they made the code open source and invited the public to help. Next thing you knew - people had the addons for the banks, honor systems, mounts and such - all the while the core group could work on stability. Something that would hurry up the time table on SWG for certain...
But alas, the topic of the thread is about the legality. I am not a lawyer nor a judge nor does anything that I do carry any weight on such decisions. Such battles will occur and at that time we will know for sure. Though I am pretty positive that even if proven illegal - it will carry on in some form. This horse has been beaten into elmers and the main personalities in this thread's fight aren't going to change on another's mind nor one up the other with a magical bullet for had anyone of the people of the web had such a weapon at thier disposal - it would have been brought up witihin the first three replies in a link to about 30 other threads where it (the bullet) had been debated in a circular fashion until the thread was closed or buried due to lack of giving a damn.
Interesting read though. Now where's the afterparty?
Once they get past this current problem which is the toughest part, the rest will happen a lot faster.
As for the legality, NO emulator has ever been shut down. So long as you don't sell a subscription service and don't pirate the client (ie: end users have bought a legal copy of SWG) and you don't steal code (the server is being written from scratch), you aren't violating anyone's copyright.
SWG ADDICT...clean since the NGE
It could set a court precedent that would restrain SOE and other MMO makers from making CUNGE type changes to persistent world games... No way they want to risk that. They've already had the press bash them to death over that, and it would crank up again if they sued. They have a bad enough public image as it is.
I think it's far more likely that SOE would take the steam out of the SWGEMU playerbase by offering pre-CU servers, which 90% of those who would play the emulator would prefer (myself included).
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
I think you are forgetting LucasArts in that statement. They would also need to remove all mention of Star Wars material to completely avoid violating LA's copyright.
If they don't charge for playing, they are probably safe.
SOE doesn't care about the EMU because it is no real threat to SOE. It will not reduce those who are playing the NGE (because it is completely different) and if it does start to draw from people playing they can always open their own Pre-CU servers (as has been stated many times in this thread). They will have the hardware to support many more players than a "non-profit" emulation can compete with. Finally, if the emulation still shows signs of hurting SOE, then the option for a lawsuit might be opened.
LucasArts probably won't care either, so long as the emulation doesn't show Luke having sex with Darth Vader or some other thing like that. The big reason they won't care is that the emulation likely will only have a couple hundred people playing and won't be worth their time to sue. You can be certain that if the emulation becomes overly popular LA will bring out the big guns and strike it down.
Personally, I doubt that the emulation will be great so I think they will probably not need to worry about a lawsuit.
Why would either SOE or LEC have PR issues suing over an emulator? Considering the bad PR generated by the NGE already, I don't think a lawsuit would do any further damage, if any.
From SOE/LA's perspective, someone is stealing their work. Bands that supported the suit against Napster didn't really take that much of a PR hit, even Metallica. Maybe they did initially, but I can't recall any of those bands going out of business over the Napster case.
I don't think any reasonable person would fault a company for trying to protect its investments.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I think you are forgetting LucasArts in that statement. They would also need to remove all mention of Star Wars material to completely avoid violating LA's copyright.
If they don't charge for playing, they are probably safe.
SOE doesn't care about the EMU because it is no real threat to SOE. It will not reduce those who are playing the NGE (because it is completely different) and if it does start to draw from people playing they can always open their own Pre-CU servers (as has been stated many times in this thread). They will have the hardware to support many more players than a "non-profit" emulation can compete with. Finally, if the emulation still shows signs of hurting SOE, then the option for a lawsuit might be opened.
LucasArts probably won't care either, so long as the emulation doesn't show Luke having sex with Darth Vader or some other thing like that. The big reason they won't care is that the emulation likely will only have a couple hundred people playing and won't be worth their time to sue. You can be certain that if the emulation becomes overly popular LA will bring out the big guns and strike it down.
Personally, I doubt that the emulation will be great so I think they will probably not need to worry about a lawsuit.
The Star Wars IP is in the client, not on the server. If they pirate the copyrited Star Wars material in the client, LEC would have a suit.
The material is in the client, etc. If you buy a copy of the client from LEC you own a license to that content to run that client.
All the emulator is is the same thing the SOE servers are: A huge, interactive database that talks to the clients, most stuff happens on the client side, the server is nothing more than a huge database that collects the results.
The emulator is really nothing more than another noncommercial Star Wars fan project just like those who mod KOTOR or who make fan films. There is nothing illegal about it.
I think you are forgetting LucasArts in that statement. They would also need to remove all mention of Star Wars material to completely avoid violating LA's copyright.
If they don't charge for playing, they are probably safe.
SOE doesn't care about the EMU because it is no real threat to SOE. It will not reduce those who are playing the NGE (because it is completely different) and if it does start to draw from people playing they can always open their own Pre-CU servers (as has been stated many times in this thread). They will have the hardware to support many more players than a "non-profit" emulation can compete with. Finally, if the emulation still shows signs of hurting SOE, then the option for a lawsuit might be opened.
LucasArts probably won't care either, so long as the emulation doesn't show Luke having sex with Darth Vader or some other thing like that. The big reason they won't care is that the emulation likely will only have a couple hundred people playing and won't be worth their time to sue. You can be certain that if the emulation becomes overly popular LA will bring out the big guns and strike it down.
Personally, I doubt that the emulation will be great so I think they will probably not need to worry about a lawsuit.
The Star Wars IP is in the client, not on the server. If they pirate the copyrited Star Wars material in the client, LEC would have a suit.
The material is in the client, etc. If you buy a copy of the client from LEC you own a license to that content to run that client.
All the emulator is is the same thing the SOE servers are: A huge, interactive database that talks to the clients, most stuff happens on the client side, the server is nothing more than a huge database that collects the results.
The emulator is really nothing more than another noncommercial Star Wars fan project just like those who mod KOTOR or who make fan films. There is nothing illegal about it.
Lucas: Attack of the "Starballz"
Lucas sued a film that resembled Star Wars. It did not include actual copyright material in it. Do you truly think that LA cares whether their IP is client side or not? The server can tell the client to have Luke and Darth Vader /deepkiss (or whatever that emote was) just outside of the Mos Eisley starport.
The thing to note in this case was that LA ended up losing the lawsuit (no copyright material was used) but cost the company distributing the parody a lot of money (a countersuit was filed for $140 million dollars).
Now this was a commercial venture, so will be different from the emulation. But if LA decides that the emulation is a threat, which I don't think it will ever be, they would not hesitate to file a lawsuit. Likely, if they ever did file a lawsuit, it would effectively kill the emulation since they would have to rely on donations from their fans to fund their defense.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.