He was asking to change two ground concepts of the game, which are both unacceptable:
One Shard-One World PvP
Both are CORE mechanics of Eve. You do not go and make another Server to Split the Community. If you make a new Server, it will completely destroy the reason why many people play Eve in the first place. Another Server means: Another World. Another Shard. Another set of Market, Politics, Stories, History. Eve would be in no way different to any other sharded Game.
PvP, as many mentioned, drives the WHOLE economy in Eve. If you remove PvP, the economy will instantly collapse. Another major selling point of Eve lost. Congratulations.
But, fortunately, this will never happen. Yes, " It is up to the company itself to determine if this is worth doing"!
I didnt post the whole chatlog with CCP Wrangler in a public Channel. Let be post something he said about the possibility of a PvE-Server, too: "about the same time pigs turn blue and flies through the skies throwing dynamite on giant pink dragons"
Are you saying that you wouldn't have fun blasting away in practice battles with your EVE ships? You wouldn't enjoy seeing what works and what doesn't work in a way that doesn't cost you a fortune and a lot of time? Fighting in well-matched battles doesn't appeal to you? I think that would be a lot of fun myself.
I call BS on the OP even playing the game past 10min or even trying to look up ways to learn to PvP in EvE....They have a Test server and its there for a reason. They even have sections of space set up for learning PvP and have sections of space set up for all classes of ships and PvP rulesets. Hell you cant even get poded in those sections. ( Battlegrounds )
Next time...look into a game before you complain about it.
~HappyGaming
PS: Stay in WOW.
Edit: I stoped reading after that post I quoted, so if anyone else mentioned this, sorry for bringing it up again.
Didnt mind the PvP so much in Eve, when I tried it. It was the gankers and griefers.
I see lots of posts in this thread about how pvp should be a challenge and all that, where is the challenge in 2 bc's, carrier, and other support ships pounding a Myrm the second it pops out of the gate? As the pilot of said Myrm, I didnt even get a chance to launch drones before I was floating in a pod. Then the kid starts msg'in me with crap like "dont wanna get podd'ed, then give me all your cash!"
Needless to say, I just logged out, uninstalled the game, and canceled the subscription. PvP is one thing, just out right griefing other players because you know they cant fight back....yeah, challenge.
Its very easy to avoid low sec ganks .. as someone already point it out you just need to use your head. Everyone has been ganked at some point, thing is how you learn to adapt. Oh and by your reaction after the first gank (aka "uh griefers shot my shiny myrm, this game is a total crap, in gonna quit" instead of asking yourself these simple questions 1)Why did you get ganked in the first place?; 2)How do i avoid getting ganked in the future?) you look more childish than those "kids" that ganked you (wich prolly did you a favor by showing you that you need to take some measures to proper insure your ships health when traveling thru low sec).
No, it was more of, "there went everything I have and I really dont feel like spending the next month just trying to get to where I was before some griefer decided to jump me with his buddies."
As to your questions-
1. I already knew that there was no reason, other than I was an easy target. They knew that even if I was an "vet", there wasnt a damn thing I could do to defend myself. Thus why I correctly labeled them as gankers and griefers.
2. I took steps to avoid geting ganked in the future, by making the choice that Eve was not the game for me as it stood. Sorry, but I dont enjoy wasting months of game play because someone wants to be an asshat. As a pre-CU vet, I've been down that road already.
You dont need another account to train another toon as a scouting alt. Simply create another char log on that, hop in a shuttle (heck you can do it in your pod) and scout the system ahead (once in there dont be satisfied if the gate is clear, use your 360 scan, look how many are in local, look at map stats - how many ships destroyed in the last hour in that system, etc). Hell read a tutorial bout how its done.
Also instead of bragging how many mmos have you played so far ,try to acknoledge that there arent any on the market that are like EvE or have the same ingame mechanics as EvE has.
Ummm.....binkie, I wasnt braging. Simply showing that my MMO experience goes way back, I know what MMO means. As to ingame mechanics, aside from the timed training thing, didnt see much on the front end that was exactly ground breaking. Large skill based game, AO, space based combat, Allegance.
Finaly i would ask for your stuff but i think it was already blown to pieces, and your sub is canceled anyways. Have fun in WoW
Nope, WoW aint my cup of tea either. Tried it, really shallow on the character customization. Nice enough for a short distraction but little "meat" for an intelligent gamer to sink his teeth into.
You wouldnt have wanted anything I had anyways. Nothing in any great supply, mineral wise, above omber. Had quite a bit of rat salvage, but mainly just basic skills stuff. All said and done, couldnt have amounted to much more than 15-20m. Sure that would have just been a drop in the bucket to your "leet" self.
Blkcat, Eve PvP is not and never was about fair fights. It is about territorial control, about surviving. A fair fight is fun, and there are people who may fight that way, but:
You lose ships, money and time if you engage in a fight that seems fair. Your prey might have friends with him, he might be a bait. If you always engage in "fair" fights, you will lose a lot, because your enemy will have his friends with him to kill you.
It is a misconception pvp in eve would be about a fair duel, one on one.
It is about killing that guy that just came into your area. The area you fought for, that you claim as your own. He is a risk, danger to your people, to your land, to the unarmed industrials. He may attack your friend, the Miner. He might scout for a larger fleet. He must die.
It is about making money, because there seems to be a constant influx of new and old players coming into lowsec and 0.0 without a scout, help or anything in a large, vulnerable ship woth a lot.
It is about you defending your space, your mates, your assets from intruders, pirates and hostile forces.
PvP in Eve is a lot, but not a system where you can expect a fair fight. Few will engage in a fight that they may very likely lose. They will engage if they think they can win.
You may not like that system, but it is the best for many Eve players, because of the extreme rush of adrenaline in a fight. Because of the strong communities in corporations, because you watch each others back. You protect each other, share money, time and assets to survive.
(That is, by the way, why a battleground-style pvp is totally out of place on the live server.)
If you got ganked in your little Myrmidon, you make it too easy by just calling them "griefers". They ganked you, yes. But they had their own reason why they did it. Maybe they were securing the space? Maybe they had fought for it, and claim it as their own, and do not want others inside their space to protect their weaker miners, industrialists, missionrunners? Maybe they simply shot you because they chose to live from piracy and need the money. Maybe, even, they killed you to see if you were a bait and they could get a nice fight, because they never thought that someone would just jump inside that system without escort..
There are several answers to that "Why?", but it is certainly not that they were just "assholes" or "griefers"..
I can accept that, but why all the talk of the "challenge" then in regards to PvP in this thread?
By your own words, you admit that a challenge is the last thing any of you are looking for in a PvP battle. You want a fight you know you will win, because you dont want to lose your ship either.
And you know what, I can even live with that answer. Hell, its logical. Who the hell wants to lose months of work? My issue was the holy-er than thou attitudes that some in this thread were expressing. Its not about the challenge. Its about wining at any cost.
Obviously that model will only appeal to but a small group of people.
And no, they were just griefers. Even if they had a psudo RPG reason for it, killing other players for no reason other than the fact that they are there and weaker than you is griefing.
I can accept that, but why all the talk of the "challenge" then in regards to PvP in this thread? By your own words, you admit that a challenge is the last thing any of you are looking for in a PvP battle. You want a fight you know you will win, because you dont want to lose your ship either. And you know what, I can even live with that answer. Hell, its logical. Who the hell wants to lose months of work? My issue was the holy-er than thou attitudes that some in this thread were expressing. Its not about the challenge. Its about wining at any cost.
Obviously that model will only appeal to but a small group of people. And no, they were just griefers. Even if they had a psudo RPG reason for it, killing other players for no reason other than the fact that they are there and weaker than you is griefing.
We're getting into splitting hairs here. What I define as a challenge in EVE is the entire process from aquiring your ship and your friends, and putting yourselves into a position where you can fight. As for 'sure wins', I've had a few of those, usually because I had better intel (reconnaissance) and strategy (preplanning and position, also logistics). However, the fights are rarely a forgone conclusion when everyone knows what they are doing. There's the element of chance, and all aspects of tactics available.
It's too complex to explain fully; several doctorate thesis and brilliant books have been written on the subject. I'd recommend Sun Tzu's "Art of War" and Von Clausewitz's "On War" as excellent literature on the basic premises of warfare. Most of their truisms and thoughts are directly applicable to warfare and combat in EVE.
You just have to act on the assumption that you'll need every edge you can get, because you can bet the other side has just as much interest in preserving their own assets. And sometimes, you just can't bring enough to the table to be guaranteed (or even have a chance of) winning, but you need to put up a fight anyways. Perhaps the POS under attack is strategically crucial, or you need to slow the enemy down while your mining ops evacuate. That's the challenge.
As for the gate camp, I say again that there is a reason for it. One of the most important things to be had in EVE is intelligence. Intel, reconnaissance information, call it what you will. Controlling a gate and destroying all who try to pass will deny enemy information about the goings on in the system, allowing friendly ships to operate in peace. Nothing pseudo, or ever RPG about it really, it comes down into survival.
Also, there's the economical aspect. Letting a hauler or, in your case, a battlecruiser with potentially loads of expensive modules run through does nothing for your pocketbook when you're a pirate. Destroying lets you loot; Loot keeps you flying.
That's EVE too; there are no really good reasons to not kill every neutral/red target you see when gatecamping. At the very least, allowing someone to escape exposes your camp and its composition to potential campbusters, putting your own assets at risk. Yes, it does force PVP upon people who want nothing more then to 'pass and be merry', but that PVP isn't just gratuituos killing when you look at it from the wider angle. True, the pie-wats there might've been out just for a few quick ganks and some loot, but who's to say that's wrong?
Again: Your own choice was to risk your ship. There's a choice in EVE, and that's to stay in high-sec, and be safe. Those who are ready for PVP, or for the risks outside secure space, can go there and reap the rewards.
I can accept that, but why all the talk of the "challenge" then in regards to PvP in this thread? By your own words, you admit that a challenge is the last thing any of you are looking for in a PvP battle. You want a fight you know you will win, because you dont want to lose your ship either. And you know what, I can even live with that answer. Hell, its logical. Who the hell wants to lose months of work? My issue was the holy-er than thou attitudes that some in this thread were expressing. Its not about the challenge. Its about wining at any cost.
Obviously that model will only appeal to but a small group of people. And no, they were just griefers. Even if they had a psudo RPG reason for it, killing other players for no reason other than the fact that they are there and weaker than you is griefing.
The challenge is in the planning. You know the saying, "Most battles are won before they are fought". It's about outthinking your opponent. Sometimes the 'trap' is as amazingly simple as overwhelming force on a gate waiting for some unsuspecting new player to jump through.
How was that gate camp situation not a challenge? You can't just say it's not a challenge because you didn't win.
No, it wasnt a challenge because there was nothing I could do. Pointless really to continue to argue this. Its already been admitted that a fair, and thus challenging fight is the last thing your looking for. My point was made.
No, it wasnt a challenge because there was nothing I could do. Pointless really to continue to argue this. Its already been admitted that a fair, and thus challenging fight is the last thing your looking for. My point was made.
There was a lot you could do but you didn't want to challenge yourself to figure it out.
The challenge is in setting the trap or figuring a way out of it. I think it's fun, if you don't that's fine, but don't say there's no challenge.
No, it wasnt a challenge because there was nothing I could do. Pointless really to continue to argue this. Its already been admitted that a fair, and thus challenging fight is the last thing your looking for. My point was made.
there are things you can do, you are stating that you have a lack of an enquiring mind if you are unwilling to face that. If you say, "there was nothing i could do because i wasn't prepared, no point in arguing this" then i happily agree.
sorry man, you say you know MMOs but you forgot what it even stands for or means.
The multiplayer part means that you can break any camp, you just have to bring the numbers.
you call them gankers and greifers, but they are risking their stuff as well. They are camped, you know where they are, you can gank them, and if you plan it right, you have the gate guns on your side.
Another simple point you are missing out on is the success and challenge of surviving.
the challenge is not to be stupid enough to be ganked. There are plenty of game mechanics out there that you can expleore, you just didn't do so, you suffered the pain of loosing your assets due to your own stupidity and determined ignorance. The unwillingness to face the challenge is the burn that caused you to unistal the game, blaming others is weak.
The OP was not asking them to change your game in your world. He is asking them to make a new world that he can play in. See the difference? This second server would have nothing to do with you and your server. You are quite safe. Your game will not change. You can relax. Calm it down all of you. His approach is what you would want in a gamer - don't screw over the current players but build a seperate world. It is up to the company itself to determine if this is worth doing. Why are you all being so defensive?
the asumpions of the OP is are that the seperate shard would be in the interest of the company, which explicitly states that the companies choices are poor and demonstrates an ignorance of what the company set the game to be and what makes the game a widely recognized, awarded and original game.
this ignorance is so widespread that it is considered joke worthy within the company and community alike.
you then suggest we are defensive about this? no, just amused that someone completely missed the point of the game as stated by the company that made it, so badly.
I can accept that, but why all the talk of the "challenge" then in regards to PvP in this thread? By your own words, you admit that a challenge is the last thing any of you are looking for in a PvP battle. You want a fight you know you will win, because you dont want to lose your ship either. And you know what, I can even live with that answer. Hell, its logical. Who the hell wants to lose months of work? My issue was the holy-er than thou attitudes that some in this thread were expressing. Its not about the challenge. Its about wining at any cost.
Obviously that model will only appeal to but a small group of people. And no, they were just griefers. Even if they had a psudo RPG reason for it, killing other players for no reason other than the fact that they are there and weaker than you is griefing.
The first thing I learned in EVE, is that if you cant afford to lose and replace your ship, you shouldnt be cruising around in it.
Secondly Id like to point out that When I played on Sullon Zek in the original EQ, we on the good team got camped in noobie areas, and the evil team even went so far as to camp us right outside the cities, in fact making it so hard we couldnt leave. Now heres the crux, the challenge is not to defeat someone levle 60 that has that much of an advantage, its to get around that person to go do what it is you want to do. Like in life, not every problem can be bull rushed and fought down, often the odds are against you, and you have to shift your thinking, not waste time crying Lifes not fair!
Thats what I like about it myself; theres consequence to actions. Its the consequences to your actions that make EVE a world, not just a game.
P.S. Every loss should be a victory, you should walk away from it having learned something new. If you can't do that, you'll never let go of the "I always have to win" adolescent mentality.
Didnt mind the PvP so much in Eve, when I tried it. It was the gankers and griefers.
I see lots of posts in this thread about how pvp should be a challenge and all that, where is the challenge in 2 bc's, carrier, and other support ships pounding a Myrm the second it pops out of the gate? As the pilot of said Myrm, I didnt even get a chance to launch drones before I was floating in a pod. Then the kid starts msg'in me with crap like "dont wanna get podd'ed, then give me all your cash!"
Needless to say, I just logged out, uninstalled the game, and canceled the subscription. PvP is one thing, just out right griefing other players because you know they cant fight back....yeah, challenge.
as many posters have already said, it is very easy to get by a gate camp. first move should ALWAYS be to study the starmap, and look on statistics which are the "hot spots" of ganking on the last minutes/hours. that should be enough to make an educated choice on how to go from one system to another. autopilot is not always the best route.
and second, you say they had no reason to kill you. well, adding to what others have already told you (security, looting, protect a mining op, close to way to a region you consider your own...) i am gonna add another one: industry. you know, there are many industrials on EVE, and they build ships for profit. and to earn their living they need to sell their ships. and to sell their ships they need pilots buying. and for a pilot to buy a ship he needs to loose the one he has now. i am sure you can complete the reasoning on your own.
end line: they had a reason to kill you. thus, they were not griefers. of course, you didnt want to get killed. that is what is called non-consentual pvp. EVE has non-consentual pvp. you should have known it.
This is like walking into a church full of people and saying "Your church doctrine doesnt really fit how I like to run things my life, you should all change it so it fits ME personally better. Well unless you are King Henry, good luck on that.
No, it wasnt a challenge because there was nothing I could do. Pointless really to continue to argue this. Its already been admitted that a fair, and thus challenging fight is the last thing your looking for. My point was made.
The challenge was in your particular case to avoid that camp. If you think you can jump into a low sec in anything that is worth killing without doing some basic recon, and expect to survive long enough to get out with your assets intact, well you`ve been proven already that wont happen.Mind you tho that not all low sec system are like that, only those that are "bottleneck" systems (only thru them you can get into a particular area - transit from hi sec to low sec or from 0.0 to low sec etc).
Also, yes, low sec ganks are very easy to avoid (they cant deploy bubbles to hold you or to make you land 20km away from the gate) - if avoiding them represents to big of a challenge to you than you did the right thing by canceling your sub.
Didnt mind the PvP so much in Eve, when I tried it. It was the gankers and griefers.
I see lots of posts in this thread about how pvp should be a challenge and all that, where is the challenge in 2 bc's, carrier, and other support ships pounding a Myrm the second it pops out of the gate? As the pilot of said Myrm, I didnt even get a chance to launch drones before I was floating in a pod. Then the kid starts msg'in me with crap like "dont wanna get podd'ed, then give me all your cash!"
Needless to say, I just logged out, uninstalled the game, and canceled the subscription. PvP is one thing, just out right griefing other players because you know they cant fight back....yeah, challenge.
One of the big strikes against me trying EVE is the griefing I hear about, but I'll probably eventually try it anyway once the space-station stuff goes in. I would quit too though if that had happened to me.
Didnt mind the PvP so much in Eve, when I tried it. It was the gankers and griefers.
I see lots of posts in this thread about how pvp should be a challenge and all that, where is the challenge in 2 bc's, carrier, and other support ships pounding a Myrm the second it pops out of the gate? As the pilot of said Myrm, I didnt even get a chance to launch drones before I was floating in a pod. Then the kid starts msg'in me with crap like "dont wanna get podd'ed, then give me all your cash!"
Needless to say, I just logged out, uninstalled the game, and canceled the subscription. PvP is one thing, just out right griefing other players because you know they cant fight back....yeah, challenge.
One of the big strikes against me trying EVE is the griefing I hear about, but I'll probably eventually try it anyway once the space-station stuff goes in. I would quit too though if that had happened to me.
After the station stuff goes in and after you`ll get in, you`ll prolly quit after your first day (maybe week) and you will come down here and ask for a pve server or moan about how cruel eve is or how it is full of so-called "kids" who dare to blow your ship up because you did the mistake to think you can get along by not using your head.
Note: my reply here is based purely on your atitude deriving from the post ive just quote. I might be wrong but i might also be right
One of the big strikes against me trying EVE is the griefing I hear about, but I'll probably eventually try it anyway once the space-station stuff goes in. I would quit too though if that had happened to me.
Its not nearly as prevalent as most people who got ganked make it seem. I think that overall in my 3 years of playing I have been ganked twice. two different ways and learned from it each time. Sure if you keep repeating the same thing over and over again then your number is going to be a lot higher then mine but then again thats not the games fault now is it.
The so called griefing in Eve is vastly over exagerated. It's not like people can just corpse camp you after they kill you and pvp isn't that hard to avoid once you know what you are doing and understand how the game works. Also the so called losing months of work because of one death is another exageration unless you spend all your money fitting out one ship. This sort of thing just is not done by people with a clue. For instance I have many different ship types fitted out and none of them would ever ruin me financially if it got blown up.
The people who cry about griefing probably got killed once and cry like a little baby and can't handle losing some pixels in a game. So yeah if you get so emotionally attached to some stupid imaginary pixels in a game that you cry when you lose them Eve is not for you. But like others have already said in previous posts, pvp is what drives Eves economy and the fact that pvp death penalty is so harsh it's what makes 0.0 control and wars actually meaningful. Eve on a pve server just would not work ever.
Didnt mind the PvP so much in Eve, when I tried it. It was the gankers and griefers.
I see lots of posts in this thread about how pvp should be a challenge and all that, where is the challenge in 2 bc's, carrier, and other support ships pounding a Myrm the second it pops out of the gate? As the pilot of said Myrm, I didnt even get a chance to launch drones before I was floating in a pod. Then the kid starts msg'in me with crap like "dont wanna get podd'ed, then give me all your cash!"
Needless to say, I just logged out, uninstalled the game, and canceled the subscription. PvP is one thing, just out right griefing other players because you know they cant fight back....yeah, challenge.
One of the big strikes against me trying EVE is the griefing I hear about, but I'll probably eventually try it anyway once the space-station stuff goes in. I would quit too though if that had happened to me.
there is a sign that says "in passing beyond this point you understand that there is no protection form the police" do you go past?
is it griefing when you go past that sign and get you ass handed to you? or did you just ask for it?
Didnt mind the PvP so much in Eve, when I tried it. It was the gankers and griefers.
I see lots of posts in this thread about how pvp should be a challenge and all that, where is the challenge in 2 bc's, carrier, and other support ships pounding a Myrm the second it pops out of the gate? As the pilot of said Myrm, I didnt even get a chance to launch drones before I was floating in a pod. Then the kid starts msg'in me with crap like "dont wanna get podd'ed, then give me all your cash!"
Needless to say, I just logged out, uninstalled the game, and canceled the subscription. PvP is one thing, just out right griefing other players because you know they cant fight back....yeah, challenge.
One of the big strikes against me trying EVE is the griefing I hear about, but I'll probably eventually try it anyway once the space-station stuff goes in. I would quit too though if that had happened to me.
After the station stuff goes in and after you`ll get in, you`ll prolly quit after your first day (maybe week) and you will come down here and ask for a pve server or moan about how cruel eve is or how it is full of so-called "kids" who dare to blow your ship up because you did the mistake to think you can get along by not using your head.
Note: my reply here is based purely on your atitude deriving from the post ive just quote. I might be wrong but i might also be right
Gramis,
You're boring. If you're going to be a twit, you could at least be interesting.
I suggest not being rude instead, though.
I look forward to your reply about "owning me" when/if I start playing.
Nicoli,
Thank you for the response. Yes, you are right. Defintion of insanity, after all, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Nurgles,
Fair point. If its possible to stay in high security space all/the vast majority of the time, then I imagine I won't have a problem. I was worried when I re-read it and heard that "main" storyline stuff goes through PvP areas, though.
Prinny my reply wasnt meant to be rude . But you`ve stated that you`ll be coming to eve after "the station stuff gets in". Dunno if you are aware but ambulation (when it`ll come) is designed to be more of a feature (quite useless one imo) wich will not define your gameplay in eve. You will still have to get in a ship to do missions, mining, pvp etc. So the core mechanics will be about the same and you will still die in low sec areas if you dont use your head and learn the game mechanics.
And why would i want to "own" you when you get in game? I like my fights to be challenging and believe me popping some guy that just finished his tutorial is not my cup of tea.
Nurgles, Fair point. If its possible to stay in high security space all/the vast majority of the time, then I imagine I won't have a problem. I was worried when I re-read it and heard that "main" storyline stuff goes through PvP areas, though.
The 'storyline' missions here do not really represent a continuous storyline. They're just missions you get for doing several missions in a row to a single faction. Every 16 missions or so you'll get an eve-mail offering you one of these missions
Completing a 'storyline' mission gives you somewhat higher rewards and a bigger standings boost towards the faction then normal missions, but they're not vital, and if the mission parameters don't please you, you can turn the mission down. Taking missions from agents away from the low-sec border will ensure that you'll never get a mission that sends you there (agent missions usually don't send you out beyond two-three jumps max).
That said, when you are prepared right, going through low-sec threshold is doable, and exciting. And you can even get lucky and happen upon it on a time when it's not camped. Just gotta scout it first, that's all.
Nurgles, Fair point. If its possible to stay in high security space all/the vast majority of the time, then I imagine I won't have a problem. I was worried when I re-read it and heard that "main" storyline stuff goes through PvP areas, though.
The 'storyline' missions here do not really represent a continuous storyline. They're just missions you get for doing several missions in a row to a single faction. Every 16 missions or so you'll get an eve-mail offering you one of these missions
Completing a 'storyline' mission gives you somewhat higher rewards and a bigger standings boost towards the faction then normal missions, but they're not vital, and if the mission parameters don't please you, you can turn the mission down. Taking missions from agents away from the low-sec border will ensure that you'll never get a mission that sends you there (agent missions usually don't send you out beyond two-three jumps max).
That said, when you are prepared right, going through low-sec threshold is doable, and exciting. And you can even get lucky and happen upon it on a time when it's not camped. Just gotta scout it first, that's all.
Finwolven really summed up the options here. You never have to leave high sec. you always have a choice, and you can find other options by doing some research. For example, finding a good agent for a corporation that has a close and high sec storyline agent.
You are not perfectly safe, but you can manage that risk. Someone can always suicide gank you in high sec, however they will only do this if they know that their losses will be outweighed by the reward, your loot. When yopu are a new, you simply do not have anything worth the loss. The other main trap for a new player is that you are baited into flaging yourself, in high sec, never take from a strangers can, you are now a thief and they can shoot you. etc
However, the PvE content in the game is not as extensive as the huge areas that are controled by players, that is where the highest risk and reward is. It is also where teh longevity of the game lies. Working with others towards goals, the sandbox part of the game.
Not sure if this helps, for the last few months i have been focusing on carebear activities, missioning, trading and manufacture which involve a lot of moving stuff around. My corportion is also in active wars, so in high sec, there are people who can legally shoot me. People are hunting for me in high sec. My travels take me into low sec daily and into 0.0 often. I have not lost a ship or a cargo during this time at all. Shot at and chased but i have always gotten away. A very real way to win in PvP is to escape, and do the activity that makes you prosper despite the pirates or the war enemies. They get no loot and they fail to prevent you from prospering, so you win.
I didn't read all seven pages but eve is a game i hate to love and love to hate.
Eve is a pvp game and it seems pretty well clear it will remain one. Its a game for pvp players first and care bears second. Because of this it will never hit blockbuster status - but surely ccp must know about this now.
I've done some eve pvp. I find fleet blob wars about as fun as pong. Smaller PvP is ok but sitting at a gate wating for crap to come through is boring imho too. Eve is what it is and there's nothing wrong with that. Having said that, it will certainly never be for everyone because CCP is unwilling to create a pvp / pve balanced game.
Their mechanics not only allow for griefing but clearly they welcome it as a game mechanic. Its a bit of an elitest game as well.
I play eve off and on but mainly off. Just when I think i'm starting to like the game again I do something stupid (read : I accept responsibility for my stupidity) - and get myself killed at a bad time /place that results in siginicant loss. I roll the dice and I loose :P
Some people really enjoy games like that and yanno, thats ok. But i dont come home from work to feel frustrated at a computer screen, asp.net does enough of that for me at work. I come home to relax and have a fun time. Sometimes eve is just too hard core for my liking.
If you want pve move on or get used to more limited and handicaped game environment.
Comments
He was asking to change two ground concepts of the game, which are both unacceptable:
One Shard-One World
PvP
Both are CORE mechanics of Eve. You do not go and make another Server to Split the Community. If you make a new Server, it will completely destroy the reason why many people play Eve in the first place.
Another Server means: Another World. Another Shard. Another set of Market, Politics, Stories, History. Eve would be in no way different to any other sharded Game.
PvP, as many mentioned, drives the WHOLE economy in Eve. If you remove PvP, the economy will instantly collapse. Another major selling point of Eve lost. Congratulations.
But, fortunately, this will never happen. Yes, " It is up to the company itself to determine if this is worth doing"!
I didnt post the whole chatlog with CCP Wrangler in a public Channel. Let be post something he said about the possibility of a PvE-Server, too:
"about the same time pigs turn blue and flies through the skies throwing dynamite on giant pink dragons"
I call BS on the OP even playing the game past 10min or even trying to look up ways to learn to PvP in EvE....They have a Test server and its there for a reason. They even have sections of space set up for learning PvP and have sections of space set up for all classes of ships and PvP rulesets. Hell you cant even get poded in those sections. ( Battlegrounds )
Next time...look into a game before you complain about it.
~HappyGaming
PS: Stay in WOW.
Edit: I stoped reading after that post I quoted, so if anyone else mentioned this, sorry for bringing it up again.
Its very easy to avoid low sec ganks .. as someone already point it out you just need to use your head. Everyone has been ganked at some point, thing is how you learn to adapt. Oh and by your reaction after the first gank (aka "uh griefers shot my shiny myrm, this game is a total crap, in gonna quit" instead of asking yourself these simple questions 1)Why did you get ganked in the first place?; 2)How do i avoid getting ganked in the future?) you look more childish than those "kids" that ganked you (wich prolly did you a favor by showing you that you need to take some measures to proper insure your ships health when traveling thru low sec).
No, it was more of, "there went everything I have and I really dont feel like spending the next month just trying to get to where I was before some griefer decided to jump me with his buddies."
As to your questions-
1. I already knew that there was no reason, other than I was an easy target. They knew that even if I was an "vet", there wasnt a damn thing I could do to defend myself. Thus why I correctly labeled them as gankers and griefers.
2. I took steps to avoid geting ganked in the future, by making the choice that Eve was not the game for me as it stood. Sorry, but I dont enjoy wasting months of game play because someone wants to be an asshat. As a pre-CU vet, I've been down that road already.
You dont need another account to train another toon as a scouting alt. Simply create another char log on that, hop in a shuttle (heck you can do it in your pod) and scout the system ahead (once in there dont be satisfied if the gate is clear, use your 360 scan, look how many are in local, look at map stats - how many ships destroyed in the last hour in that system, etc). Hell read a tutorial bout how its done.
Also instead of bragging how many mmos have you played so far ,try to acknoledge that there arent any on the market that are like EvE or have the same ingame mechanics as EvE has.
Ummm.....binkie, I wasnt braging. Simply showing that my MMO experience goes way back, I know what MMO means. As to ingame mechanics, aside from the timed training thing, didnt see much on the front end that was exactly ground breaking. Large skill based game, AO, space based combat, Allegance.
Finaly i would ask for your stuff but i think it was already blown to pieces, and your sub is canceled anyways. Have fun in WoW
Nope, WoW aint my cup of tea either. Tried it, really shallow on the character customization. Nice enough for a short distraction but little "meat" for an intelligent gamer to sink his teeth into.
You wouldnt have wanted anything I had anyways. Nothing in any great supply, mineral wise, above omber. Had quite a bit of rat salvage, but mainly just basic skills stuff. All said and done, couldnt have amounted to much more than 15-20m. Sure that would have just been a drop in the bucket to your "leet" self.
Blkcat, Eve PvP is not and never was about fair fights. It is about territorial control, about surviving.
A fair fight is fun, and there are people who may fight that way, but:
You lose ships, money and time if you engage in a fight that seems fair. Your prey might have friends with him, he might be a bait. If you always engage in "fair" fights, you will lose a lot, because your enemy will have his friends with him to kill you.
It is a misconception pvp in eve would be about a fair duel, one on one.
It is about killing that guy that just came into your area. The area you fought for, that you claim as your own. He is a risk, danger to your people, to your land, to the unarmed industrials. He may attack your friend, the Miner. He might scout for a larger fleet. He must die.
It is about making money, because there seems to be a constant influx of new and old players coming into lowsec and 0.0 without a scout, help or anything in a large, vulnerable ship woth a lot.
It is about you defending your space, your mates, your assets from intruders, pirates and hostile forces.
PvP in Eve is a lot, but not a system where you can expect a fair fight. Few will engage in a fight that they may very likely lose. They will engage if they think they can win.
You may not like that system, but it is the best for many Eve players, because of the extreme rush of adrenaline in a fight. Because of the strong communities in corporations, because you watch each others back. You protect each other, share money, time and assets to survive.
(That is, by the way, why a battleground-style pvp is totally out of place on the live server.)
If you got ganked in your little Myrmidon, you make it too easy by just calling them "griefers". They ganked you, yes. But they had their own reason why they did it. Maybe they were securing the space? Maybe they had fought for it, and claim it as their own, and do not want others inside their space to protect their weaker miners, industrialists, missionrunners? Maybe they simply shot you because they chose to live from piracy and need the money. Maybe, even, they killed you to see if you were a bait and they could get a nice fight, because they never thought that someone would just jump inside that system without escort..
There are several answers to that "Why?", but it is certainly not that they were just "assholes" or "griefers"..
I can accept that, but why all the talk of the "challenge" then in regards to PvP in this thread?
By your own words, you admit that a challenge is the last thing any of you are looking for in a PvP battle. You want a fight you know you will win, because you dont want to lose your ship either.
And you know what, I can even live with that answer. Hell, its logical. Who the hell wants to lose months of work? My issue was the holy-er than thou attitudes that some in this thread were expressing. Its not about the challenge. Its about wining at any cost.
Obviously that model will only appeal to but a small group of people.
And no, they were just griefers. Even if they had a psudo RPG reason for it, killing other players for no reason other than the fact that they are there and weaker than you is griefing.
It's too complex to explain fully; several doctorate thesis and brilliant books have been written on the subject. I'd recommend Sun Tzu's "Art of War" and Von Clausewitz's "On War" as excellent literature on the basic premises of warfare. Most of their truisms and thoughts are directly applicable to warfare and combat in EVE.
You just have to act on the assumption that you'll need every edge you can get, because you can bet the other side has just as much interest in preserving their own assets. And sometimes, you just can't bring enough to the table to be guaranteed (or even have a chance of) winning, but you need to put up a fight anyways. Perhaps the POS under attack is strategically crucial, or you need to slow the enemy down while your mining ops evacuate. That's the challenge.
As for the gate camp, I say again that there is a reason for it. One of the most important things to be had in EVE is intelligence. Intel, reconnaissance information, call it what you will. Controlling a gate and destroying all who try to pass will deny enemy information about the goings on in the system, allowing friendly ships to operate in peace. Nothing pseudo, or ever RPG about it really, it comes down into survival.
Also, there's the economical aspect. Letting a hauler or, in your case, a battlecruiser with potentially loads of expensive modules run through does nothing for your pocketbook when you're a pirate. Destroying lets you loot; Loot keeps you flying.
That's EVE too; there are no really good reasons to not kill every neutral/red target you see when gatecamping. At the very least, allowing someone to escape exposes your camp and its composition to potential campbusters, putting your own assets at risk. Yes, it does force PVP upon people who want nothing more then to 'pass and be merry', but that PVP isn't just gratuituos killing when you look at it from the wider angle. True, the pie-wats there might've been out just for a few quick ganks and some loot, but who's to say that's wrong?
Again: Your own choice was to risk your ship. There's a choice in EVE, and that's to stay in high-sec, and be safe. Those who are ready for PVP, or for the risks outside secure space, can go there and reap the rewards.
The challenge is in the planning. You know the saying, "Most battles are won before they are fought". It's about outthinking your opponent. Sometimes the 'trap' is as amazingly simple as overwhelming force on a gate waiting for some unsuspecting new player to jump through.
How was that gate camp situation not a challenge? You can't just say it's not a challenge because you didn't win.
No, it wasnt a challenge because there was nothing I could do. Pointless really to continue to argue this. Its already been admitted that a fair, and thus challenging fight is the last thing your looking for. My point was made.
There was a lot you could do but you didn't want to challenge yourself to figure it out.
The challenge is in setting the trap or figuring a way out of it. I think it's fun, if you don't that's fine, but don't say there's no challenge.
sorry man, you say you know MMOs but you forgot what it even stands for or means.
The multiplayer part means that you can break any camp, you just have to bring the numbers.
you call them gankers and greifers, but they are risking their stuff as well. They are camped, you know where they are, you can gank them, and if you plan it right, you have the gate guns on your side.
Another simple point you are missing out on is the success and challenge of surviving.
the challenge is not to be stupid enough to be ganked. There are plenty of game mechanics out there that you can expleore, you just didn't do so, you suffered the pain of loosing your assets due to your own stupidity and determined ignorance. The unwillingness to face the challenge is the burn that caused you to unistal the game, blaming others is weak.
this ignorance is so widespread that it is considered joke worthy within the company and community alike.
you then suggest we are defensive about this? no, just amused that someone completely missed the point of the game as stated by the company that made it, so badly.
Secondly Id like to point out that When I played on Sullon Zek in the original EQ, we on the good team got camped in noobie areas, and the evil team even went so far as to camp us right outside the cities, in fact making it so hard we couldnt leave. Now heres the crux, the challenge is not to defeat someone levle 60 that has that much of an advantage, its to get around that person to go do what it is you want to do. Like in life, not every problem can be bull rushed and fought down, often the odds are against you, and you have to shift your thinking, not waste time crying Lifes not fair!
Thats what I like about it myself; theres consequence to actions. Its the consequences to your actions that make EVE a world, not just a game.
P.S. Every loss should be a victory, you should walk away from it having learned something new. If you can't do that, you'll never let go of the "I always have to win" adolescent mentality.
as many posters have already said, it is very easy to get by a gate camp. first move should ALWAYS be to study the starmap, and look on statistics which are the "hot spots" of ganking on the last minutes/hours. that should be enough to make an educated choice on how to go from one system to another. autopilot is not always the best route.
and second, you say they had no reason to kill you. well, adding to what others have already told you (security, looting, protect a mining op, close to way to a region you consider your own...) i am gonna add another one: industry. you know, there are many industrials on EVE, and they build ships for profit. and to earn their living they need to sell their ships. and to sell their ships they need pilots buying. and for a pilot to buy a ship he needs to loose the one he has now. i am sure you can complete the reasoning on your own.
end line: they had a reason to kill you. thus, they were not griefers. of course, you didnt want to get killed. that is what is called non-consentual pvp. EVE has non-consentual pvp. you should have known it.
This is like walking into a church full of people and saying "Your church doctrine doesnt really fit how I like to run things my life, you should all change it so it fits ME personally better. Well unless you are King Henry, good luck on that.
Also, yes, low sec ganks are very easy to avoid (they cant deploy bubbles to hold you or to make you land 20km away from the gate) - if avoiding them represents to big of a challenge to you than you did the right thing by canceling your sub.
And i wouldnt have said no to 15-20 free mil
One of the big strikes against me trying EVE is the griefing I hear about, but I'll probably eventually try it anyway once the space-station stuff goes in. I would quit too though if that had happened to me.After the station stuff goes in and after you`ll get in, you`ll prolly quit after your first day (maybe week) and you will come down here and ask for a pve server or moan about how cruel eve is or how it is full of so-called "kids" who dare to blow your ship up because you did the mistake to think you can get along by not using your head.
Note: my reply here is based purely on your atitude deriving from the post ive just quote. I might be wrong but i might also be right
Its not nearly as prevalent as most people who got ganked make it seem. I think that overall in my 3 years of playing I have been ganked twice. two different ways and learned from it each time. Sure if you keep repeating the same thing over and over again then your number is going to be a lot higher then mine but then again thats not the games fault now is it.
The so called griefing in Eve is vastly over exagerated. It's not like people can just corpse camp you after they kill you and pvp isn't that hard to avoid once you know what you are doing and understand how the game works. Also the so called losing months of work because of one death is another exageration unless you spend all your money fitting out one ship. This sort of thing just is not done by people with a clue. For instance I have many different ship types fitted out and none of them would ever ruin me financially if it got blown up.
The people who cry about griefing probably got killed once and cry like a little baby and can't handle losing some pixels in a game. So yeah if you get so emotionally attached to some stupid imaginary pixels in a game that you cry when you lose them Eve is not for you. But like others have already said in previous posts, pvp is what drives Eves economy and the fact that pvp death penalty is so harsh it's what makes 0.0 control and wars actually meaningful. Eve on a pve server just would not work ever.
there is a sign that says "in passing beyond this point you understand that there is no protection form the police" do you go past?
is it griefing when you go past that sign and get you ass handed to you? or did you just ask for it?
After the station stuff goes in and after you`ll get in, you`ll prolly quit after your first day (maybe week) and you will come down here and ask for a pve server or moan about how cruel eve is or how it is full of so-called "kids" who dare to blow your ship up because you did the mistake to think you can get along by not using your head.
Note: my reply here is based purely on your atitude deriving from the post ive just quote. I might be wrong but i might also be right
Gramis,
You're boring. If you're going to be a twit, you could at least be interesting.
I suggest not being rude instead, though.
I look forward to your reply about "owning me" when/if I start playing.
Nicoli,
Thank you for the response. Yes, you are right. Defintion of insanity, after all, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Nurgles,
Fair point. If its possible to stay in high security space all/the vast majority of the time, then I imagine I won't have a problem. I was worried when I re-read it and heard that "main" storyline stuff goes through PvP areas, though.
Prinny my reply wasnt meant to be rude . But you`ve stated that you`ll be coming to eve after "the station stuff gets in". Dunno if you are aware but ambulation (when it`ll come) is designed to be more of a feature (quite useless one imo) wich will not define your gameplay in eve. You will still have to get in a ship to do missions, mining, pvp etc. So the core mechanics will be about the same and you will still die in low sec areas if you dont use your head and learn the game mechanics.
And why would i want to "own" you when you get in game? I like my fights to be challenging and believe me popping some guy that just finished his tutorial is not my cup of tea.
Completing a 'storyline' mission gives you somewhat higher rewards and a bigger standings boost towards the faction then normal missions, but they're not vital, and if the mission parameters don't please you, you can turn the mission down. Taking missions from agents away from the low-sec border will ensure that you'll never get a mission that sends you there (agent missions usually don't send you out beyond two-three jumps max).
That said, when you are prepared right, going through low-sec threshold is doable, and exciting. And you can even get lucky and happen upon it on a time when it's not camped. Just gotta scout it first, that's all.
Completing a 'storyline' mission gives you somewhat higher rewards and a bigger standings boost towards the faction then normal missions, but they're not vital, and if the mission parameters don't please you, you can turn the mission down. Taking missions from agents away from the low-sec border will ensure that you'll never get a mission that sends you there (agent missions usually don't send you out beyond two-three jumps max).
That said, when you are prepared right, going through low-sec threshold is doable, and exciting. And you can even get lucky and happen upon it on a time when it's not camped. Just gotta scout it first, that's all.
Finwolven really summed up the options here. You never have to leave high sec. you always have a choice, and you can find other options by doing some research. For example, finding a good agent for a corporation that has a close and high sec storyline agent.You are not perfectly safe, but you can manage that risk. Someone can always suicide gank you in high sec, however they will only do this if they know that their losses will be outweighed by the reward, your loot. When yopu are a new, you simply do not have anything worth the loss. The other main trap for a new player is that you are baited into flaging yourself, in high sec, never take from a strangers can, you are now a thief and they can shoot you. etc
However, the PvE content in the game is not as extensive as the huge areas that are controled by players, that is where the highest risk and reward is. It is also where teh longevity of the game lies. Working with others towards goals, the sandbox part of the game.
Not sure if this helps, for the last few months i have been focusing on carebear activities, missioning, trading and manufacture which involve a lot of moving stuff around. My corportion is also in active wars, so in high sec, there are people who can legally shoot me. People are hunting for me in high sec. My travels take me into low sec daily and into 0.0 often. I have not lost a ship or a cargo during this time at all. Shot at and chased but i have always gotten away. A very real way to win in PvP is to escape, and do the activity that makes you prosper despite the pirates or the war enemies. They get no loot and they fail to prevent you from prospering, so you win.
I didn't read all seven pages but eve is a game i hate to love and love to hate.
Eve is a pvp game and it seems pretty well clear it will remain one. Its a game for pvp players first and care bears second. Because of this it will never hit blockbuster status - but surely ccp must know about this now.
I've done some eve pvp. I find fleet blob wars about as fun as pong. Smaller PvP is ok but sitting at a gate wating for crap to come through is boring imho too. Eve is what it is and there's nothing wrong with that. Having said that, it will certainly never be for everyone because CCP is unwilling to create a pvp / pve balanced game.
Their mechanics not only allow for griefing but clearly they welcome it as a game mechanic. Its a bit of an elitest game as well.
I play eve off and on but mainly off. Just when I think i'm starting to like the game again I do something stupid (read : I accept responsibility for my stupidity) - and get myself killed at a bad time /place that results in siginicant loss. I roll the dice and I loose :P
Some people really enjoy games like that and yanno, thats ok. But i dont come home from work to feel frustrated at a computer screen, asp.net does enough of that for me at work. I come home to relax and have a fun time. Sometimes eve is just too hard core for my liking.
If you want pve move on or get used to more limited and handicaped game environment.