Sometimes when you log in, there are only arseholes online and you still want to play. Sometimes it is 3 o clock in the morning and there are no people to play with. sometimes I am simply not in the mood to piss around organising raids and groups. It isn't a case of solo or grouping it is a case of being able to do either as the circumstance or my mood demands.
Thanks, baff, you've summed things up really well.
While I can respect Kyleran's enthusiasm for the social game aspects of EVE that he clearly loves, none of the things he describes could ever be worth me sacrificing my "being able to do as either the circumstance or my mood demands" at any point in any game.
Sometimes when you log in, there are only arseholes online and you still want to play. Sometimes it is 3 o clock in the morning and there are no people to play with. sometimes I am simply not in the mood to piss around organising raids and groups. It isn't a case of solo or grouping it is a case of being able to do either as the circumstance or my mood demands.
Thanks, baff, you've summed things up really well.
While I can respect Kyleran's enthusiasm for the social game aspects of EVE that he clearly loves, none of the things he describes could ever be worth me sacrificing my "being able to do as either the circumstance or my mood demands" at any point in any game.
Well said, sir. Thanks again.
LL
Well like I have already said, I agree that if some one chooses the solo style of game play in an MMO the game should support that game play and Eve does this very well. But I also believe if you choose the solo play you should also not be ignoring the guild / corp style for the wrong reasons. If you don't want to log in to a corp / guild because of assholes within that corp then you clearly are in the wrong corp. If you are logging in at 3 am and no one is around then you can simply go do your solo thing anyways, being in a corp does not affect this in any way. If you do not like to organize raids or groups then don't, again if a corp is forcing this upon you then you are clearly in the wrong corp.
I have 2 characters that I currently play. One is in a pvp corp in 0.0 space, great people and no required ops at all. If I login and do not feel like shooting someone I don't have to, no one is going to get pissed and yell at me. Since it is a pvp corp there is never any group mining or complex running ops. My other character is in high sec space running level 4 missions with a friend making my pvp money. However this toon is still in the noob starter corp and as of late I have been given some serious thought to putting him into an empire based solo friendly corp since the noob corp chat can be very bothersome at times.
Play solo if you choose, Eve allows this very well. it isn't like WoW where once you hit 70 you need to join a raiding guild to progress. But do not miss out on the potential benefits of a good corp that suits you. Not all corps require you attend scheduled mining or pvp ops. A good freelancer style corp could actually be of great benefit. Playing with other players that choose the same style of play and sharing helpful information and if you do choose to group up for something it is much easier than trying to find some decent people when in the NPC corp.
This to me is one of the things that makes Eve the best MMO out there, the ability to choose how you play rather than being forced into something just to feel like you are progressing in the game.
Sometimes when you log in, there are only arseholes online and you still want to play. Sometimes it is 3 o clock in the morning and there are no people to play with. sometimes I am simply not in the mood to piss around organising raids and groups. It isn't a case of solo or grouping it is a case of being able to do either as the circumstance or my mood demands.
Thanks, baff, you've summed things up really well.
While I can respect Kyleran's enthusiasm for the social game aspects of EVE that he clearly loves, none of the things he describes could ever be worth me sacrificing my "being able to do as either the circumstance or my mood demands" at any point in any game.
Well said, sir. Thanks again.
LL
Well like I have already said, I agree that if some one chooses the solo style of game play in an MMO the game should support that game play and Eve does this very well. But I also believe if you choose the solo play you should also not be ignoring the guild / corp style for the wrong reasons. If you don't want to log in to a corp / guild because of assholes within that corp then you clearly are in the wrong corp. If you are logging in at 3 am and no one is around then you can simply go do your solo thing anyways, being in a corp does not affect this in any way. If you do not like to organize raids or groups then don't, again if a corp is forcing this upon you then you are clearly in the wrong corp.
I have 2 characters that I currently play. One is in a pvp corp in 0.0 space, great people and no required ops at all. If I login and do not feel like shooting someone I don't have to, no one is going to get pissed and yell at me. Since it is a pvp corp there is never any group mining or complex running ops. My other character is in high sec space running level 4 missions with a friend making my pvp money. However this toon is still in the noob starter corp and as of late I have been given some serious thought to putting him into an empire based solo friendly corp since the noob corp chat can be very bothersome at times.
Play solo if you choose, Eve allows this very well. it isn't like WoW where once you hit 70 you need to join a raiding guild to progress. But do not miss out on the potential benefits of a good corp that suits you. Not all corps require you attend scheduled mining or pvp ops. A good freelancer style corp could actually be of great benefit. Playing with other players that choose the same style of play and sharing helpful information and if you do choose to group up for something it is much easier than trying to find some decent people when in the NPC corp.
This to me is one of the things that makes Eve the best MMO out there, the ability to choose how you play rather than being forced into something just to feel like you are progressing in the game.
1 in every 10 people is an arsehole. There are arseholes in every guild.
Even the friendliest guild in the world is still going to have members you can't be bothered to play with in.
That said if you can't find a guild that suits you in an MMO, you have serious social issues.
I find that I do like to organise raids. Equally I also enjoy pug grouping and solo activites. The problem with Eve however, and indeed RPG's in general is that the PvP is so pathetic. It's quite simply a waste of my time to organise raids in Eve, because the only thing to do in them is PvP and the game sucks for it. Or at least, if suck is too strong a word for you, there are 1,000 PvP games on the market that suck substantially less, if you see what I'm saying. It has never once occoured to me to launch Eve, or warcraft or anyother RPG when I'm in the mood for a little player vs player.
Without significant PvE content in the game there is very little reason reason for a carebear like me to bother guilding. I'm happiest in Noob chat with no sense of obligation and just doing my own little thing or pugging around.
I agree with most of what you said and indeed you are entitled to your opinion and if Eve isn't a game that you enjoy then by all means do no play it. It's been said before that Eve is not for everyone. If you are looking for a strong pve game fighting npcs and whatnot then Eve is most definately not for you. Eve wasn't designed to be that way, it was designed to be a pvp / economic / crafting game. There are 1000s of pve centric games out there and extremely few games like Eve, I want to say no games like Eve but I haven't played every game ever made so I may have missed something. There are complexes (dungeons) in Eve that can be found using probe scanners. These 'dungeons' range from low level and easily soloable all the way up to very difficult requiring a group of people to complete. These higher level ones are in 0.0 space and would require you to be in an alliance to do them in relative safety. These 'dungeons' are not instances and can be scanned out by someone else and you can be attacked in the middle of them. Also these 'dungeons' are never in the same place all the time, they do not respawn. Once it completed it is respawned elsewhere in the same constellation and needing to be scanned out again.
But do not compare pvp in Eve to any other game out there and say that it sucks. There aren't 1000's of other games out there with the pvp of Eve. There are very few games out there where pvp actually matters to the game world in both territorial control and market. Eve has the most involved and rewarding pvp of any game I have ever played. That's not to say I don't enjoy firing up Battlefield or some other FPS for some quick arcade pvp action though. I would love to see a BF style of game with a persistent game world and some sort of crafting and gear loss system.
The OP reminds me of myself when I was a newbie to MMOs. I thought all MMOs should have light death penalty and that WoW was greatest game on earth. I thought no other game could compare cause surely why would Blizz have so many subs?
Finally I realized WoW is just "crack". It might feel good for short term but suck over the long haul
Right now there are millions of newbies hooked on Crack and they think games should just reward and reward and reward- never punish
Newbies dont realize all the good that comes from death penalty. Being newbies, they dont know any better....
I know the OP is surely a newbie to MMOs because he thinks 200k subs for an MMO is crap. Anyone with experience would know 200k subs is a smashing success for an MMO. This outdoes many crappy MMOs like City of Heroes and DDO plus many more.
In conclusion, I am not mind at the OP. He's just wow-i-fied and one day hopefully in the future he will realize the error of his ways
I would love to see a BF style of game with a persistent game world and some sort of crafting and gear loss system.
Try WW2 online. (WW2 online isn't strictly persisent though. You can win. When someone wins the server is reset, although this should take a few months to achieve).
I enjoy Eve, just not the PvP. I've been hooked on Space Sims since 1984.
I'm not sure I agree that Eve wasn't designed to be a PvE game. Most of the games content is PvE (what there is of it). PvE aspects of the game have been there from the outset and have been added with regularity since it's release. It's primarily an RPG.
I am fundamentally disintrested in any PvP game that uses an RPG system. Civilisation, now there is a PvP where territory and economy matters.
Eve fails in PvP in the same department as all other RPG's. The game was designed as an RPG. The priority of the game is not to rule the universe or defeat your mate, it is to advance and develop your character. Consequently the PvP plays second fiddle to this process. A good PvP game holds player balance as the absolute top priority in it's design.
RPG's don't. The PvP has been tacked on the end of an essentially PvE game and as such has been critically compromised. RPG just isn't a genre that lends itself well to PvP. Now there are MMORPG's out there with worse PvP (and a couple with better), so for those who like it, I'm led to believe Eve is one of the better ones. It is also just about the least well balanced of any PvP's I've had the pleasure of.
I can understand the thrill and concept high of a fleet battle in Eve, but it is really poor when placed beside a 32 player game of X-wing Vs Tie Fighter. The persistent world is not as meaningful as that found in WW2 online for example and the combinations of units and their battlefield roles fails to excite the mind as much as Planetsides three way, 450 man, persistent world battles.
Similarly I can appreciate the rewards of resource control. It's a main them in WW2 online, Planetside, Civ and just about every RTS on the market. As is unit diversity. Again the key difference between an RPG enviroment and all of these other games that provide the same key elements is that the character development takes priority in the game design over any of these aspects.
And that's why it sucks compared to them.
It is flawed. The 100% persistent world aspect is a dangerous game device. It allows for the older and more established players to dominate the game. Dominate so totally that no new players can ever hope to overthrow them. It can become stagnant. Planetside deals with this problem by weighting the resources. The closer you get to the enemies start zone the longer your supply line becomes. They have balanced it in such a way that no one can ever dominate for very long.
WW2 Online however, like Eve allows you to profit from your domination. As you control more and more resources you ability to take more improves and the ability of the enemy weakens. Unlike Eve, WW2 deals with this problem by allowing you to win. And then resetting the server.
Warcraft uses instances that reset at the end of each skirmish.
Guild Wars restricts charcter level and allows players to join the game at the maximum power possible if they choose. Removing the character development aspect from it's PvP entirely.
Eve on the otherhand is an RPG. Character development is the core of the game. Character development is intended to be limitless. There aren't any instances. You can't reset the server and you can't allow the players to lose everything they have ever developed. And so it stagnates. The most powerful become ever more powerful and the less powerful can never catch up. It's an old game and it's not from a PvP stable. Eve hasn't incorporated the new tricks from the other PvP titles on the market.
Planetside and WW2 online however were fundamentally designed as PvP games from the outset. Character development, was either not inculded at all, or very limited and clearly of a lower priority to game balance.
PvP in Eve sucks. It is a mongrel. There are a multitude of thoroughbred PvP games out there. PvP softwares in their 8th or 9th generations, each one more innovative and refined than the last. Eve is an RPG.
I'm always pleased to hear that someone is enjoying themselves. It's your game, play it the way you enjoy most. I'm sure there are many thousands of players who activiely enjoy Eve's version of PvP. It bores me personally, too simplistic, and I always get the irrational feeling that those who wax lyrical about it so much can't have tried so many other games.
If it was a choice of play Eve PvP or not play Eve, then I would stop playing Eve on the spot. It bores the pants off me.
Just one simple question, baff, that i'd like you to answer:
Have you lived in 0.0 for >1 week?
Because, if you answer with a "no", i'd like you to rethink about PvP in Eve. And actually take part in it.
But, I'd like to comment on one thing: "It allows for the older and more established players to dominate the game. Dominate so totally that no new players can ever hope to overthrow them.", You wrote. Please explain Goonswarm. Please explain to me how a fraction of new Players, who started several years after the vets, could grow, and grow, and invade, and invade. They are, as much as i dislike them for their overall attitude, the best example how brain beats SP in Eve.
Why is that so? Because, after a quite small amount of time, SP become next to irrelevant in 0.0. It is no longer about rpg-like-progression, once you can fly the basic 0.0 ships (being a fleet-battleship and one for roaming gangs/moneymaking). That does not take long, and after that, the thing that divides the winners from the ones who have to go back to empire, is simply that:
Strategy
It has been said before: Eve 0.0 plays like a RTS with every Unit being a human player. Stats like "morale", "experience" etc. are very real, actually. A fleet is not so much defined by gear of the individual player, but by three things: Morale. Morale leads to the second thing: Discipline. And, of course: Logistics (the famous ammotrain, bringing ammo to the fleet. The capitals jumping in more material. The miners, the production facilities. Securing your logistic operations is a major parts of 0.0 "work")
Sounds very militaristic to you? Of course it is. War is war in Eve, as real as it can get in a game. Saying it is flawed because there are SP in Eve is a bit far fetched if you ask me. It would be, if there were Characterlevels, where even several Lvl 5 could never kill a max-level-char. But this happens in Eve quite often! The infamous Rifter-Gangs are an example, or the gangs with t1 cruisers wasting more ships on highly expensive elite-ships, but inflicting more damage in ISK than they are taking.
Or, of course, Goonswarms early fleets. Bringing constantly high numbers of inexpensive ships, because they can lose several ships and still have a positive efficiency. They could bring waves after wave of inexpensive ships, while their enemy was losing highly expensive ships, hurting way, way more.
I would love to see a BF style of game with a persistent game world and some sort of crafting and gear loss system.
Try WW2 online. (WW2 online isn't strictly persisent though. You can win. When someone wins the server is reset, although this should take a few months to achieve).
I may have to check it out some time.
I enjoy Eve, just not the PvP. I've been hooked on Space Sims since 1984.
I'm not sure I agree that Eve wasn't designed to be a PvE game. Most of the games content is PvE (what there is of it). PvE aspects of the game have been there from the outset and have been added with regularity since it's release. It's primarily a PvE game. An RPG.
Eve was designed from the ground up with PvP sandbox type play in mind first and foremost and PvE content added in after.
Most of the games content is PvE ?? Most of Eves content is player generated not a series of instances that force people to farm to progress.
I am fundamentally disintrested in any PvP game that uses an RPG system. Civilisation, now there is a PvP where territory and economy matters.
But it is not an MMO. Nor a persistent world.
Eve fails in PvP in the same department as all other RPG's. The game was designed as an RPG. The priority of the game is not to rule the universe or defeat your mate, it is to advance and develop your character. Consequently the PvP plays second fiddle to this process. A good PvP game holds player balance as the absolute top priority in it's design.
PvP balance in Eve is great. With the multitude of ship types and modules there is always atleast 1 counter to a tactic your enemy may use. Im curious as to how you figure Eves pvp fails.
RPG's don't. The PvP has been tacked on the end of an essentially PvE game and as such has been critically compromised. RPG just isn't a genre that lends itself well to PvP. Now there are MMORPG's out there with worse PvP (and a couple with better), so for those who like it, I'm led to believe Eve is one of the better ones. It is also just about the least well balanced of any PvP's I've had the pleasure of.
Again Eve is a PvP game, not PvE no matter how much you say it is. CCP doesn't even call their game an RPG. They call Eve an MMOG.
I can understand the thrill and concept high of a fleet battle in Eve, but it is really poor when placed beside a 32 player game of X-wing Vs Tie Fighter. The persistent world is not as meaningful as that found in WW2 online for example and the combinations of units and thier battlefield roles fails to excite the mind as much as Planetsides two way 450 man persistent world battles.
Now you are comparing 3 games of different genres to 1 game that doesn't have anything similar on the market.
Similarly I can appreciate the rewards of resource control. It's a main them in WW2 online, Planetside, Civ and just about every RTS on the market. As is unit diversity. Again the key difference between an RPG enviroment and all of these other games that provide the same key elements is that the character development takes priority in the game design over any of these aspects.
How does character development take priority in Eve over resource gathering ? It isn't like you have to level up before you can do anything.
And that's why it sucks compared to them.
It is flawed. The 100% persistent world aspect is a dangerous game device. It allows for the older and more established players to dominate the game. Dominate so totally that no new players can ever hope to overthrow them. It can become stagnant. Planetside deals with this problem by weighting the resources. The closer you get to the enemies start zone the longer your supply line becomes. They have balanced it in such a way that no one can ever dominate for very long.
You are making a common mistake here when it comes to Eve leveling system. New players can catch up and it has been stated many times on these forums why so I won't bother getting into it. Older more established alliances fall apart and new ones are formed. Read up on some of Eves history and you will see this.
WW2 Online however, like Eve allows you to profit from your domination. As you control more and more resources you ability to take more improves and the ability of the enemy weakens. Unlike Eve, WW2 deals with this problem by allowing you to win. And then resetting the server.
In Eve though the universe is too large to control all of it therefore there is no "win" and no need to reset the server. Just like you say in WW2, as an alliance takes more area it becomes increasingly more difficult to maintain it.
Warcraft uses instances that reset at the end of each skirmish.
WoWs PvP is truly meaningless, it is only there to be a gear grind and nothing else so therefore not even comparable.
Guild Wars restricts charcter level and allows players to join the game at the maximum power possible if they choose.
Guild wars is a totally different type of game play, focusing on arena style ladder type pvp. Like WoW, not even comparable.
Eve on the otherhand is an RPG. Character development is the core of the game. character development is intended to be limitless. There aren't any instances. You can't reset the server and you can't allow the players to lose everything they have ever developed. And so it stagnates. The most powerful become ever more powerful and the less powerful can never catch up. It's an old game and it's not from a PvP stable. Eve hasn't incorporated the new tricks from the other PvP titles on the market. Planetside and WW2 online however were designed as PvP games from the outset. Character development, was either not inculded at all, or very limited and clearly of a lower priority to game balance.
This is just totally wrong, at this point you are just making shit up
PvP in Eve sucks. It is a mongrel. There area multitude of thoroughbred PvP games out there. PvP softwares in the 8th or 9th generations, each one more innovative than the last. Eve is an RPG.
I'm always pleased to here that someone is enjoying themselves, and even balanced PvP isn't to everyone's taste. I'm sure there are may thousands of players who activiely enjoy Eve's version of PvP. It bores me personally and I always get the irrational feeling that those who wax lyrical about it so much can't have tried so many other games.
If it was a choice of play Eve PvP or not play Eve, then I would stop playing Eve on the spot. It bores the pants off me.
So basically Eves PvP is not for you and therefore you call it shit. That would be like me saying just because I don't like to play RTS game they are garbage which would be so closed minded and stupid. Even though I don't like to play RTS games I would never call them stupid or shitty.
At this point its best to agree to disagree.
Eve has always been a game that people either love or hate. The people who love it do so because of its complexity, single world and meaningful PvP. Those that dislike Eve do so because of its steep learning curve and its combat does feel a lot slower when compared to typical MMOs such as WoW and EQ. In the end though Eve is a totally different breed of MMO and is uncomparable to any other game out there
EVE already has "non-PvP" parts. Just stay out of low sec and you'll be fine, also very bored.
However, if you want to get anywhere in EVE without having to deal with the corrupt pirate-favoring politics of major corporations and alliances, then you're f*cked.
It's a game for people with a superiority complex; if you don't have one, move on.
I would love to see a BF style of game with a persistent game world and some sort of crafting and gear loss system.
Try WW2 online. (WW2 online isn't strictly persisent though. You can win. When someone wins the server is reset, although this should take a few months to achieve).
I may have to check it out some time.
I enjoy Eve, just not the PvP. I've been hooked on Space Sims since 1984.
I'm not sure I agree that Eve wasn't designed to be a PvE game. Most of the games content is PvE (what there is of it). PvE aspects of the game have been there from the outset and have been added with regularity since it's release. It's primarily a PvE game. An RPG.
Eve was designed from the ground up with PvP sandbox type play in mind first and foremost and PvE content added in after.
Most of the games content is PvE ?? Most of Eves content is player generated not a series of instances that force people to farm to progress.
I am fundamentally disintrested in any PvP game that uses an RPG system. Civilisation, now there is a PvP where territory and economy matters.
But it is not an MMO. Nor a persistent world.
Eve fails in PvP in the same department as all other RPG's. The game was designed as an RPG. The priority of the game is not to rule the universe or defeat your mate, it is to advance and develop your character. Consequently the PvP plays second fiddle to this process. A good PvP game holds player balance as the absolute top priority in it's design.
PvP balance in Eve is great. With the multitude of ship types and modules there is always atleast 1 counter to a tactic your enemy may use. Im curious as to how you figure Eves pvp fails.
RPG's don't. The PvP has been tacked on the end of an essentially PvE game and as such has been critically compromised. RPG just isn't a genre that lends itself well to PvP. Now there are MMORPG's out there with worse PvP (and a couple with better), so for those who like it, I'm led to believe Eve is one of the better ones. It is also just about the least well balanced of any PvP's I've had the pleasure of.
Again Eve is a PvP game, not PvE no matter how much you say it is. CCP doesn't even call their game an RPG. They call Eve an MMOG.
I can understand the thrill and concept high of a fleet battle in Eve, but it is really poor when placed beside a 32 player game of X-wing Vs Tie Fighter. The persistent world is not as meaningful as that found in WW2 online for example and the combinations of units and thier battlefield roles fails to excite the mind as much as Planetsides two way 450 man persistent world battles.
Now you are comparing 3 games of different genres to 1 game that doesn't have anything similar on the market.
Similarly I can appreciate the rewards of resource control. It's a main them in WW2 online, Planetside, Civ and just about every RTS on the market. As is unit diversity. Again the key difference between an RPG enviroment and all of these other games that provide the same key elements is that the character development takes priority in the game design over any of these aspects.
How does character development take priority in Eve over resource gathering ? It isn't like you have to level up before you can do anything.
And that's why it sucks compared to them.
It is flawed. The 100% persistent world aspect is a dangerous game device. It allows for the older and more established players to dominate the game. Dominate so totally that no new players can ever hope to overthrow them. It can become stagnant. Planetside deals with this problem by weighting the resources. The closer you get to the enemies start zone the longer your supply line becomes. They have balanced it in such a way that no one can ever dominate for very long.
You are making a common mistake here when it comes to Eve leveling system. New players can catch up and it has been stated many times on these forums why so I won't bother getting into it. Older more established alliances fall apart and new ones are formed. Read up on some of Eves history and you will see this.
WW2 Online however, like Eve allows you to profit from your domination. As you control more and more resources you ability to take more improves and the ability of the enemy weakens. Unlike Eve, WW2 deals with this problem by allowing you to win. And then resetting the server.
In Eve though the universe is too large to control all of it therefore there is no "win" and no need to reset the server. Just like you say in WW2, as an alliance takes more area it becomes increasingly more difficult to maintain it.
Warcraft uses instances that reset at the end of each skirmish.
WoWs PvP is truly meaningless, it is only there to be a gear grind and nothing else so therefore not even comparable.
Guild Wars restricts charcter level and allows players to join the game at the maximum power possible if they choose.
Guild wars is a totally different type of game play, focusing on arena style ladder type pvp. Like WoW, not even comparable.
Eve on the otherhand is an RPG. Character development is the core of the game. character development is intended to be limitless. There aren't any instances. You can't reset the server and you can't allow the players to lose everything they have ever developed. And so it stagnates. The most powerful become ever more powerful and the less powerful can never catch up. It's an old game and it's not from a PvP stable. Eve hasn't incorporated the new tricks from the other PvP titles on the market. Planetside and WW2 online however were designed as PvP games from the outset. Character development, was either not inculded at all, or very limited and clearly of a lower priority to game balance.
This is just totally wrong, at this point you are just making shit up
PvP in Eve sucks. It is a mongrel. There area multitude of thoroughbred PvP games out there. PvP softwares in the 8th or 9th generations, each one more innovative than the last. Eve is an RPG.
I'm always pleased to here that someone is enjoying themselves, and even balanced PvP isn't to everyone's taste. I'm sure there are may thousands of players who activiely enjoy Eve's version of PvP. It bores me personally and I always get the irrational feeling that those who wax lyrical about it so much can't have tried so many other games.
If it was a choice of play Eve PvP or not play Eve, then I would stop playing Eve on the spot. It bores the pants off me.
So basically Eves PvP is not for you and therefore you call it shit. That would be like me saying just because I don't like to play RTS game they are garbage which would be so closed minded and stupid. Even though I don't like to play RTS games I would never call them stupid or shitty.
At this point its best to agree to disagree.
Eve has always been a game that people either love or hate. The people who love it do so because of its complexity, single world and meaningful PvP. Those that dislike Eve do so because of its steep learning curve and its combat does feel a lot slower when compared to typical MMOs such as WoW and EQ. In the end though Eve is a totally different breed of MMO and is uncomparable to any other game out there
Most of the in game activities in Eve are player generated, yes. As opposed to developer generated. What little development this game has had is predominantly PVE. It's a small game.
I'm well aware of Eve's history. Ever heard of BoB?
It's not a problem for me if you don't like to play RTS games. I do.
I also like to play MMORPG games. I don't call either shitty.
The PvP in RPG's is shitty. For you this equates to me calling Eve shit. That's not really something I can help you with. If all you enjoy about Eve is the PvP, good luck to you, I say.
Resource development takes priority over character development. Hello? Resource gathering is character development.
Eve is an RPG that I enjoy, but the PvP is shitty. A stagnant, boring, EZ-mode, unbalanced waste of my time. I understand that other people may enjoy it. This is not a problem for me.
Meaningful PvP? WTF is so meaningful about it? There is no story here. No reason for doing it. Just a load of bored people trying to get one over on the other bored people or develop their toons a bit faster. Same as in every other RPG's PvP.
I'll give you meaningful PvP. $100,000 for the best Guild Wars team. That means something to me.
I think the answer is pretty simple tbh, there can be no eve without pvp, it would destroy the storyline of the game and the whole concept..
Either way the game is already prepared for people that dont like to PvP, just stick to non PvP roles and join a corporation that will fit you. Joining a corp imo is the most important part of the game, doesnt matter if ur a pirate, miner, just casual pvper, manufacturer, trader or w/e, theres always a corp to join so you can play as a group. And being a figthing pilot just to kill rats is also a role ofc, theres plenty of corporations that need pilots to defend them from rats while doing ops, etc..
Being killed by gatecamps is just part of the game and if you really want to play it real you have to adapt yourself to the game and not wait for the game to adapt to your needs..
Just one simple question, baff, that i'd like you to answer: Have you lived in 0.0 for >1 week? Because, if you answer with a "no", i'd like you to rethink about PvP in Eve. And actually take part in it. But, I'd like to comment on one thing:
"It allows for the older and more established players to dominate the game. Dominate so totally that no new players can ever hope to overthrow them.", You wrote.
Please explain Goonswarm. Please explain to me how a fraction of new Players, who started several years after the vets, could grow, and grow, and invade, and invade.
They are, as much as i dislike them for their overall attitude, the best example how brain beats SP in Eve. Why is that so? Because, after a quite small amount of time, SP become next to irrelevant in 0.0. It is no longer about rpg-like-progression, once you can fly the basic 0.0 ships (being a fleet-battleship and one for roaming gangs/moneymaking). That does not take long, and after that, the thing that divides the winners from the ones who have to go back to empire, is simply that: Strategy It has been said before: Eve 0.0 plays like a RTS with every Unit being a human player. Stats like "morale", "experience" etc. are very real, actually. A fleet is not so much defined by gear of the individual player, but by three things:
Morale. Morale leads to the second thing: Discipline. And, of course: Logistics (the famous ammotrain, bringing ammo to the fleet. The capitals jumping in more material. The miners, the production facilities. Securing your logistic operations is a major parts of 0.0 "work") Sounds very militaristic to you? Of course it is. War is war in Eve, as real as it can get in a game. Saying it is flawed because there are SP in Eve is a bit far fetched if you ask me. It would be, if there were Characterlevels, where even several Lvl 5 could never kill a max-level-char. But this happens in Eve quite often! The infamous Rifter-Gangs are an example, or the gangs with t1 cruisers wasting more ships on highly expensive elite-ships, but inflicting more damage in ISK than they are taking. Or, of course, Goonswarms early fleets. Bringing constantly high numbers of inexpensive ships, because they can lose several ships and still have a positive efficiency. They could bring waves after wave of inexpensive ships, while their enemy was losing highly expensive ships, hurting way, way more.
Thanks for your great and informative answe Bat, and no I don't spend a lot of time in bandit space. I have taken part in a Goonswarm however. (Frankly it bored the pants off me).
The thing about your explanation is, I get all that strategy from all my PvP games too. I agree so much about morale and discipline being the key to team games. It's something I enjoy immensely. Logistics as well. I was playing Savage 2 last night and these were the exact things I needed to think about. The keys to winning the battle.
If we take my given example of Planetside, we can see that in any one prescribed encounter a level 1 player can have the same chance of defeating a lvl 25 as the lvl 25 does defeating the level 1.
Howver this ignores that in 24/25 encounters the lvl 25 will have the drop on the level 1. He will prescribe the engagement due to his greater flexibility and access to a wider variety of skills and equipment.
It is possible for a level 5 Eve player to defeat a level zillion Eve player, in the right circumstances, but the level zillion player is more likely to control those circumstances than the level 5 player. So for every victory you can expect 20 gankings. (Further to this the older players are better socially networked, they have faster income streams and can replace any losses faster).
This is an inherant flaw in all level based systems. Even Battlefield 2's unlock system has this issue. It's not Eve specific although Eve has more issues with it than most due to the realtime skill system.
Originally posted by baff I'm well aware of Eve's history. Ever heard of BoB?
Who cares for BoB? Eve has a much greater history..the fall of ASCN, MOo. The Drama in the North, which is still a reason to fight for us. The Droneregions have their own history (It's just too complicated for a human being)..[/quote]
Originally posted by baff The PvP in RPG's is shitty. For you this equates to me calling Eve shit.
The Rpg-part dimnishes after a month in 0.0. You do not "Level your character" anymore, all people are on a similar level and can fly a basic set of ships. After that, you mostly specialize in your preferred direction while having few impact on the dominant form of PvP: Fleet Warfare. Who cares if your Trackingcomputer is t2 or not for a 3% bonus when you are flying with 100+ other battleships? Individual sp do not matter here. At all. And this is where your agument fails: PvP DOES fail in a rpg that artificially limits you into Levels, and i agree with you. Thats why WoW PvP sucks and why Lineage PvP sucks. In Eve someone who played for a week gets accepted in a 0.0 Corp and gets tought how to survive, how to tackle, and the PvP begins. In other games i can only think of PvP when i hit max. or very high level, due to level constrains. [/quote]
Originally posted by baff Resource development takes priority over character development. Hello? Resource gathering is character development.
Disagree. It is not about gathering riches, until you hit max wallet-level. It is about securing a constant influx of money to finance your pvp or your industry. That requires thinking and defines how many ships you can lose in pvp. If you thought right, your income roughly equals what you plan to lose (thats how i did it. I have a rather constant income due to a functional production-line i once built up. requires a bit cargo-shipping once a month, though) It may be part of character progression in the early days or weeks..but after the initial startup that is no longer the case.
Originally posted by baff [...] but the PvP is shitty. A stagnant, boring, EZ-mode, unbalanced waste of my time. [...] Meaningful PvP? WTF is so meaningful about it? There is no story here. No reason for doing it.
You have admitted that you have not taken part in 0.0 Alliancewarfare but bitch about PvP, and this statement of yours says it all.
Eve in PvP matters something, because there is a Reason why someone fights. Alliances want to secure their space, want to get more space, or are on a contract against another alliance. They were provoced by someone, they may want revenge for something. It is almost never a "bah, we're bored. Lets invade Fountain". The reason is more "A year ago this alliance sent mercenaries against us. We have grown since then, time for revenge!". Or what about "Their roaming gangs came here too often. Time to end this once and for all. DIE!"? And it matters, because you actually inflict damage to the enemy. A war is always about economics, and the current war in the south has severely damaged the economy for special moonminerals. Prices are jumpy because of the war, and as the war progresses we will see several t2 items going up, too. Because a war in one region of New Eden will affect the economy of others. The war in the south right now has an influence on every empire-missionrunner in his caldari navy raven. That is the reason why people say that things matter in Eve: If someone loses a Titan somewhere, you WILL feel the effect somewhere else in the galaxy.
Try that in your battlegrounds. What happens after death? You respawn. What happens after death in GW? You respawn. And maybe the Frontline will move a bit without any effect for anyone..
"The backstory told me to!" is a better reason to fight than "Fountain is MY land!"? Well, to each his own, but you will never convince me some story the devs made up is more important than defending my territory.
I'm well aware of Eve's history. Ever heard of BoB?
Who cares for BoB? Eve has a much greater history..the fall of ASCN, MOo. The Drama in the North, which is still a reason to fight for us. The Droneregions have their own history (It's just too complicated for a human being)..[/quote]
Originally posted by baff
The PvP in RPG's is shitty. For you this equates to me calling Eve shit.
The Rpg-part dimnishes after a month in 0.0. You do not "Level your character" anymore, all people are on a similar level and can fly a basic set of ships. After that, you mostly specialize in your preferred direction while having few impact on the dominant form of PvP: Fleet Warfare. Who cares if your Trackingcomputer is t2 or not for a 3% bonus when you are flying with 100+ other battleships? Individual sp do not matter here. At all.
And this is where your agument fails: PvP DOES fail in a rpg that artificially limits you into Levels, and i agree with you. Thats why WoW PvP sucks and why Lineage PvP sucks. In Eve someone who played for a week gets accepted in a 0.0 Corp and gets tought how to survive, how to tackle, and the PvP begins. In other games i can only think of PvP when i hit max. or very high level, due to level constrains.
[/quote]
Originally posted by baff
Resource development takes priority over character development. Hello? Resource gathering is character development.
Disagree. It is not about gathering riches, until you hit max wallet-level. It is about securing a constant influx of money to finance your pvp or your industry. That requires thinking and defines how many ships you can lose in pvp. If you thought right, your income roughly equals what you plan to lose (thats how i did it. I have a rather constant income due to a functional production-line i once built up. requires a bit cargo-shipping once a month, though)
It may be part of character progression in the early days or weeks..but after the initial startup that is no longer the case.
Originally posted by baff
[...] but the PvP is shitty. A stagnant, boring, EZ-mode, unbalanced waste of my time. [...] Meaningful PvP? WTF is so meaningful about it? There is no story here. No reason for doing it.
You have admitted that you have not taken part in 0.0 Alliancewarfare but bitch about PvP, and this statement of yours says it all.
Eve in PvP matters something, because there is a Reason why someone fights. Alliances want to secure their space, want to get more space, or are on a contract against another alliance. They were provoced by someone, they may want revenge for something. It is almost never a "bah, we're bored. Lets invade Fountain". The reason is more "A year ago this alliance sent mercenaries against us. We have grown since then, time for revenge!". Or what about "Their roaming gangs came here too often. Time to end this once and for all. DIE!"?
And it matters, because you actually inflict damage to the enemy. A war is always about economics, and the current war in the south has severely damaged the economy for special moonminerals. Prices are jumpy because of the war, and as the war progresses we will see several t2 items going up, too. Because a war in one region of New Eden will affect the economy of others.
The war in the south right now has an influence on every empire-missionrunner in his caldari navy raven. That is the reason why people say that things matter in Eve: If someone loses a Titan somewhere, you WILL feel the effect somewhere else in the galaxy.
Try that in your battlegrounds. What happens after death? You respawn.
What happens after death in GW? You respawn. And maybe the Frontline will move a bit without any effect for anyone..
If someone loese a Titan on BF 2121 the effects will be felt elsewhere in the galaxy. So what?
Every PvP has this.
Every PvP guild can include noobs. A role can be found for a lvl 70 green itemed charcter as much as a level 70 epic itemed. It doesn't change that RPG games are unblalanced in PvP.
There really isn't any point denying this, neither am I in any way convinced that "I'm only leveling my toon to get better in PvP" is not just leveling my toon. Same as everyone else is in every other game.
Now if you were to make the argument that you preferred PvP that was not even balanced, that perhaps for you this imitated real life conflicts. You would have a point. But you don't, you baldly claim the Eve is balanced and it isn't. It is nothing of the sort. It is the opposite of balanced. I can't think of any game on the market less balanced.
Yes PvP does fail in an RPG that limits your levels. It fails much more however in an RPG that does not.
Level limitation mitigates the extent to which one toon can outclass another. Hence Guild Wars' excellent approach of not only an early level cap, but also allowing you to join the game at max level. All players are equally matched. Advantage can only be found in personal skills, teamwork or by bonding together into guilds etc.
WoW, is a game played predominantly PvP. 2/3 servers are PvP and PvP is still played by most people on the PVE servers.
WoW has instances. Quite simply, the level 5 guy is not put up against the lvl 70. The game is designed with balance in mind, they attempt to keep similar powered people in fights. Ultimately however, WoW is still an RPG also. Although it has taken active steps to mitigate player balance, in the end it is defeated by the RPG system. That said in any raid of 100 players a level 5 can survive. It can even goonswarm if that's what you enjoy.
The predominant difference between the Eve leveling system and the leveling system of other games is that the other games have balanced theirs for PvP. For Eve, the limitless progression is their cash cow. The more time you spend levelling up the more money they make. Your level is dependant on the cash you paid them, rather than the time you spent playing. The more you have invested in an MMO, the less inclined you will be to start again somewhere new. Etc etc etc. This game is an RPG it is designed around leveling up.
And no, you wouldn't think that the extra 3% that an item in WoW gives you would make the diference in PvP, only if you have a few extra 3%'s it does. Or a combination of different spaceships all with their 3%'s and the ability to replace your losses faster than the rest, you are infact vastly outgunning the noobs. You might like to believe you are giving them fair competition. But you aren't.
If you really thought upgrading you ship made no difference, why would you waste your time doing it?
Answer: You know as well as I do, that it does.
No offense, but I won't ever be participating in your giant PvP drama.
Just as you don't care about BoB, I don't care about any of them. Guild gossip is the first sign of a stagnating game. I like larger games. With larger playerbases. With free moving league tables that don't end up just getting dominated by the same old faces all the time. This isn't a big plus in games for me. It's just raid politics. The whole inter guild bitching, grudges and smacktalking is something I avoid like the plague.
PvP games are a magnet for this kind of sour behaviour. My cliched example of PvP communites is CounterStrike. The players there have a certain social reputaton, so do the player in Eve. While not all PvP players are by any means like this, a larger proportion are. Competative games bring this out in people. Games with as slow a pace as Eve allow for a lot of type time. Things get said.
Personally I don't hold grudges, if you guild gave me a spanking, I am grateful to your for taking the time to play with me. Because for me, it's just a game. Even when I am playing on the opposing team to you, I am still playing with you. It isn't war. It's home entertainment.
In games such as these I am quite content to just do my PvE thing. I have no desire to enjoy what you enjoy. I'm alright as I am. I don't just play one game. I don't need to find a happy compromise. I can have the best of all worlds and I think I do.
I think baff is a troll, or else a retard. Noone could use that weak an argument and believe it. "I dont do alliance PvP", "PvP has no purpose". Please tell that to all the alliances who have died solely due to PvP losses.
he is both of course...
don't feed him.
I could point out a dozen things which are simply false in his "arguments". and the way he does not even react to any disprovings tell me he knows very well that he is lying.
much of his last posting is so idiotic it is almost beyond bullshit.
he is basically a troll who is running out of bait.
"larger playerbases" --- just lol
"With free moving league tables that don't end up just getting dominated by the same old faces all the time." --- this sentence contains so much dung it couldn't even be sold in Jita. I mean, everyone who has ever played EVE knows this guy is a troll. only complete noobs and people who never tried EVE may think he is not just trolling.
And that's his goal.
he doesn'T want to change EVE or to make something better, he doesn't even want to complain. he simply wants to keep people away from the game.
and anyone who really believes him, wouldn't fit in EVE anyway.
so he acts like a protective force against an invasion of morons into EVE.
Such a collection of hypocrites, any opinion that doesn't mirror the mainstream gets flamed and labeled. Is it any wonder baff didn't return to support his opinion? It would be like building a sand castle on a beach with you fanbois. His thread gets buried by your party line mentality.
Funny, we have a different opinion than him and you're flaming us for it!
I don't mind if someone doesn't like EVE but the point is he came on to these boards to bitch about things he admits he has no experience with. It's clear he has no interest in debate as he usually uses a phrase similar to, "I'm right and if you don't think so you're a fool!" Of course we correct him, we really enjoy this game and find it offensive for someone to come to the EVE boards for no other reason than to continuously bitch about the game.
Such a collection of hypocrites, any opinion that doesn't mirror the mainstream gets flamed and labeled. Is it any wonder baff didn't return to support his opinion? It would be like building a sand castle on a beach with you fanbois. His thread gets buried by your party line mentality.
Mate, baff is comparing WoW's playstyle with EvE's playstyle. That is wrong on so many levels .. its like comparing milk with heineken and saying milk is better
also if you had the attention span to read from where baff started to post on this thread you would have noticed that the first replys to his nonsense were nice and ppl tried nicely to point to him that he is wrong.(hell they even brought arguments to prove him he was wrong)
Also fyi calling EvE an rpg (sure it has some aspects of rpg but they dont define EvE), AND saying that EvE has guilds in it makes baby jebus cry. And most of us dont want to see him upset
Comments
Thanks, baff, you've summed things up really well.
While I can respect Kyleran's enthusiasm for the social game aspects of EVE that he clearly loves, none of the things he describes could ever be worth me sacrificing my "being able to do as either the circumstance or my mood demands" at any point in any game.
Well said, sir. Thanks again.
LL
Thanks, baff, you've summed things up really well.
While I can respect Kyleran's enthusiasm for the social game aspects of EVE that he clearly loves, none of the things he describes could ever be worth me sacrificing my "being able to do as either the circumstance or my mood demands" at any point in any game.
Well said, sir. Thanks again.
LL
Well like I have already said, I agree that if some one chooses the solo style of game play in an MMO the game should support that game play and Eve does this very well. But I also believe if you choose the solo play you should also not be ignoring the guild / corp style for the wrong reasons. If you don't want to log in to a corp / guild because of assholes within that corp then you clearly are in the wrong corp. If you are logging in at 3 am and no one is around then you can simply go do your solo thing anyways, being in a corp does not affect this in any way. If you do not like to organize raids or groups then don't, again if a corp is forcing this upon you then you are clearly in the wrong corp.I have 2 characters that I currently play. One is in a pvp corp in 0.0 space, great people and no required ops at all. If I login and do not feel like shooting someone I don't have to, no one is going to get pissed and yell at me. Since it is a pvp corp there is never any group mining or complex running ops. My other character is in high sec space running level 4 missions with a friend making my pvp money. However this toon is still in the noob starter corp and as of late I have been given some serious thought to putting him into an empire based solo friendly corp since the noob corp chat can be very bothersome at times.
Play solo if you choose, Eve allows this very well. it isn't like WoW where once you hit 70 you need to join a raiding guild to progress. But do not miss out on the potential benefits of a good corp that suits you. Not all corps require you attend scheduled mining or pvp ops. A good freelancer style corp could actually be of great benefit. Playing with other players that choose the same style of play and sharing helpful information and if you do choose to group up for something it is much easier than trying to find some decent people when in the NPC corp.
This to me is one of the things that makes Eve the best MMO out there, the ability to choose how you play rather than being forced into something just to feel like you are progressing in the game.
non pvp server would suck. it wouldn't be eve at all.
go back to world of crack.
Let's stop praying for someone to save us and start saving ourselves.
Thanks, baff, you've summed things up really well.
While I can respect Kyleran's enthusiasm for the social game aspects of EVE that he clearly loves, none of the things he describes could ever be worth me sacrificing my "being able to do as either the circumstance or my mood demands" at any point in any game.
Well said, sir. Thanks again.
LL
Well like I have already said, I agree that if some one chooses the solo style of game play in an MMO the game should support that game play and Eve does this very well. But I also believe if you choose the solo play you should also not be ignoring the guild / corp style for the wrong reasons. If you don't want to log in to a corp / guild because of assholes within that corp then you clearly are in the wrong corp. If you are logging in at 3 am and no one is around then you can simply go do your solo thing anyways, being in a corp does not affect this in any way. If you do not like to organize raids or groups then don't, again if a corp is forcing this upon you then you are clearly in the wrong corp.I have 2 characters that I currently play. One is in a pvp corp in 0.0 space, great people and no required ops at all. If I login and do not feel like shooting someone I don't have to, no one is going to get pissed and yell at me. Since it is a pvp corp there is never any group mining or complex running ops. My other character is in high sec space running level 4 missions with a friend making my pvp money. However this toon is still in the noob starter corp and as of late I have been given some serious thought to putting him into an empire based solo friendly corp since the noob corp chat can be very bothersome at times.
Play solo if you choose, Eve allows this very well. it isn't like WoW where once you hit 70 you need to join a raiding guild to progress. But do not miss out on the potential benefits of a good corp that suits you. Not all corps require you attend scheduled mining or pvp ops. A good freelancer style corp could actually be of great benefit. Playing with other players that choose the same style of play and sharing helpful information and if you do choose to group up for something it is much easier than trying to find some decent people when in the NPC corp.
This to me is one of the things that makes Eve the best MMO out there, the ability to choose how you play rather than being forced into something just to feel like you are progressing in the game.
1 in every 10 people is an arsehole. There are arseholes in every guild.
Even the friendliest guild in the world is still going to have members you can't be bothered to play with in.
That said if you can't find a guild that suits you in an MMO, you have serious social issues.
I find that I do like to organise raids. Equally I also enjoy pug grouping and solo activites. The problem with Eve however, and indeed RPG's in general is that the PvP is so pathetic. It's quite simply a waste of my time to organise raids in Eve, because the only thing to do in them is PvP and the game sucks for it. Or at least, if suck is too strong a word for you, there are 1,000 PvP games on the market that suck substantially less, if you see what I'm saying. It has never once occoured to me to launch Eve, or warcraft or anyother RPG when I'm in the mood for a little player vs player.
Without significant PvE content in the game there is very little reason reason for a carebear like me to bother guilding. I'm happiest in Noob chat with no sense of obligation and just doing my own little thing or pugging around.
I agree with most of what you said and indeed you are entitled to your opinion and if Eve isn't a game that you enjoy then by all means do no play it. It's been said before that Eve is not for everyone. If you are looking for a strong pve game fighting npcs and whatnot then Eve is most definately not for you. Eve wasn't designed to be that way, it was designed to be a pvp / economic / crafting game. There are 1000s of pve centric games out there and extremely few games like Eve, I want to say no games like Eve but I haven't played every game ever made so I may have missed something. There are complexes (dungeons) in Eve that can be found using probe scanners. These 'dungeons' range from low level and easily soloable all the way up to very difficult requiring a group of people to complete. These higher level ones are in 0.0 space and would require you to be in an alliance to do them in relative safety. These 'dungeons' are not instances and can be scanned out by someone else and you can be attacked in the middle of them. Also these 'dungeons' are never in the same place all the time, they do not respawn. Once it completed it is respawned elsewhere in the same constellation and needing to be scanned out again.
But do not compare pvp in Eve to any other game out there and say that it sucks. There aren't 1000's of other games out there with the pvp of Eve. There are very few games out there where pvp actually matters to the game world in both territorial control and market. Eve has the most involved and rewarding pvp of any game I have ever played. That's not to say I don't enjoy firing up Battlefield or some other FPS for some quick arcade pvp action though. I would love to see a BF style of game with a persistent game world and some sort of crafting and gear loss system.
The OP reminds me of myself when I was a newbie to MMOs. I thought all MMOs should have light death penalty and that WoW was greatest game on earth. I thought no other game could compare cause surely why would Blizz have so many subs?
Finally I realized WoW is just "crack". It might feel good for short term but suck over the long haul
Right now there are millions of newbies hooked on Crack and they think games should just reward and reward and reward- never punish
Newbies dont realize all the good that comes from death penalty. Being newbies, they dont know any better....
I know the OP is surely a newbie to MMOs because he thinks 200k subs for an MMO is crap. Anyone with experience would know 200k subs is a smashing success for an MMO. This outdoes many crappy MMOs like City of Heroes and DDO plus many more.
In conclusion, I am not mind at the OP. He's just wow-i-fied and one day hopefully in the future he will realize the error of his ways
Try WW2 online. (WW2 online isn't strictly persisent though. You can win. When someone wins the server is reset, although this should take a few months to achieve).
I enjoy Eve, just not the PvP. I've been hooked on Space Sims since 1984.
I'm not sure I agree that Eve wasn't designed to be a PvE game. Most of the games content is PvE (what there is of it). PvE aspects of the game have been there from the outset and have been added with regularity since it's release. It's primarily an RPG.
I am fundamentally disintrested in any PvP game that uses an RPG system. Civilisation, now there is a PvP where territory and economy matters.
Eve fails in PvP in the same department as all other RPG's. The game was designed as an RPG. The priority of the game is not to rule the universe or defeat your mate, it is to advance and develop your character. Consequently the PvP plays second fiddle to this process. A good PvP game holds player balance as the absolute top priority in it's design.
RPG's don't. The PvP has been tacked on the end of an essentially PvE game and as such has been critically compromised. RPG just isn't a genre that lends itself well to PvP. Now there are MMORPG's out there with worse PvP (and a couple with better), so for those who like it, I'm led to believe Eve is one of the better ones. It is also just about the least well balanced of any PvP's I've had the pleasure of.
I can understand the thrill and concept high of a fleet battle in Eve, but it is really poor when placed beside a 32 player game of X-wing Vs Tie Fighter. The persistent world is not as meaningful as that found in WW2 online for example and the combinations of units and their battlefield roles fails to excite the mind as much as Planetsides three way, 450 man, persistent world battles.
Similarly I can appreciate the rewards of resource control. It's a main them in WW2 online, Planetside, Civ and just about every RTS on the market. As is unit diversity. Again the key difference between an RPG enviroment and all of these other games that provide the same key elements is that the character development takes priority in the game design over any of these aspects.
And that's why it sucks compared to them.
It is flawed. The 100% persistent world aspect is a dangerous game device. It allows for the older and more established players to dominate the game. Dominate so totally that no new players can ever hope to overthrow them. It can become stagnant. Planetside deals with this problem by weighting the resources. The closer you get to the enemies start zone the longer your supply line becomes. They have balanced it in such a way that no one can ever dominate for very long.
WW2 Online however, like Eve allows you to profit from your domination. As you control more and more resources you ability to take more improves and the ability of the enemy weakens. Unlike Eve, WW2 deals with this problem by allowing you to win. And then resetting the server.
Warcraft uses instances that reset at the end of each skirmish.
Guild Wars restricts charcter level and allows players to join the game at the maximum power possible if they choose. Removing the character development aspect from it's PvP entirely.
Eve on the otherhand is an RPG. Character development is the core of the game. Character development is intended to be limitless. There aren't any instances. You can't reset the server and you can't allow the players to lose everything they have ever developed. And so it stagnates. The most powerful become ever more powerful and the less powerful can never catch up. It's an old game and it's not from a PvP stable. Eve hasn't incorporated the new tricks from the other PvP titles on the market.
Planetside and WW2 online however were fundamentally designed as PvP games from the outset. Character development, was either not inculded at all, or very limited and clearly of a lower priority to game balance.
PvP in Eve sucks. It is a mongrel. There are a multitude of thoroughbred PvP games out there. PvP softwares in their 8th or 9th generations, each one more innovative and refined than the last. Eve is an RPG.
I'm always pleased to hear that someone is enjoying themselves. It's your game, play it the way you enjoy most. I'm sure there are many thousands of players who activiely enjoy Eve's version of PvP. It bores me personally, too simplistic, and I always get the irrational feeling that those who wax lyrical about it so much can't have tried so many other games.
If it was a choice of play Eve PvP or not play Eve, then I would stop playing Eve on the spot. It bores the pants off me.
Just one simple question, baff, that i'd like you to answer:
Have you lived in 0.0 for >1 week?
Because, if you answer with a "no", i'd like you to rethink about PvP in Eve. And actually take part in it.
But, I'd like to comment on one thing:
"It allows for the older and more established players to dominate the game. Dominate so totally that no new players can ever hope to overthrow them.", You wrote.
Please explain Goonswarm. Please explain to me how a fraction of new Players, who started several years after the vets, could grow, and grow, and invade, and invade.
They are, as much as i dislike them for their overall attitude, the best example how brain beats SP in Eve.
Why is that so? Because, after a quite small amount of time, SP become next to irrelevant in 0.0. It is no longer about rpg-like-progression, once you can fly the basic 0.0 ships (being a fleet-battleship and one for roaming gangs/moneymaking). That does not take long, and after that, the thing that divides the winners from the ones who have to go back to empire, is simply that:
Strategy
It has been said before: Eve 0.0 plays like a RTS with every Unit being a human player. Stats like "morale", "experience" etc. are very real, actually. A fleet is not so much defined by gear of the individual player, but by three things:
Morale. Morale leads to the second thing: Discipline. And, of course: Logistics (the famous ammotrain, bringing ammo to the fleet. The capitals jumping in more material. The miners, the production facilities. Securing your logistic operations is a major parts of 0.0 "work")
Sounds very militaristic to you? Of course it is. War is war in Eve, as real as it can get in a game. Saying it is flawed because there are SP in Eve is a bit far fetched if you ask me. It would be, if there were Characterlevels, where even several Lvl 5 could never kill a max-level-char. But this happens in Eve quite often! The infamous Rifter-Gangs are an example, or the gangs with t1 cruisers wasting more ships on highly expensive elite-ships, but inflicting more damage in ISK than they are taking.
Or, of course, Goonswarms early fleets. Bringing constantly high numbers of inexpensive ships, because they can lose several ships and still have a positive efficiency. They could bring waves after wave of inexpensive ships, while their enemy was losing highly expensive ships, hurting way, way more.
Try WW2 online. (WW2 online isn't strictly persisent though. You can win. When someone wins the server is reset, although this should take a few months to achieve).
I may have to check it out some time.
I enjoy Eve, just not the PvP. I've been hooked on Space Sims since 1984.
I'm not sure I agree that Eve wasn't designed to be a PvE game. Most of the games content is PvE (what there is of it). PvE aspects of the game have been there from the outset and have been added with regularity since it's release. It's primarily a PvE game. An RPG.
Eve was designed from the ground up with PvP sandbox type play in mind first and foremost and PvE content added in after.
Most of the games content is PvE ?? Most of Eves content is player generated not a series of instances that force people to farm to progress.
I am fundamentally disintrested in any PvP game that uses an RPG system. Civilisation, now there is a PvP where territory and economy matters.
But it is not an MMO. Nor a persistent world.
Eve fails in PvP in the same department as all other RPG's. The game was designed as an RPG. The priority of the game is not to rule the universe or defeat your mate, it is to advance and develop your character. Consequently the PvP plays second fiddle to this process. A good PvP game holds player balance as the absolute top priority in it's design.
PvP balance in Eve is great. With the multitude of ship types and modules there is always atleast 1 counter to a tactic your enemy may use. Im curious as to how you figure Eves pvp fails.
RPG's don't. The PvP has been tacked on the end of an essentially PvE game and as such has been critically compromised. RPG just isn't a genre that lends itself well to PvP. Now there are MMORPG's out there with worse PvP (and a couple with better), so for those who like it, I'm led to believe Eve is one of the better ones. It is also just about the least well balanced of any PvP's I've had the pleasure of.
Again Eve is a PvP game, not PvE no matter how much you say it is. CCP doesn't even call their game an RPG. They call Eve an MMOG.
I can understand the thrill and concept high of a fleet battle in Eve, but it is really poor when placed beside a 32 player game of X-wing Vs Tie Fighter. The persistent world is not as meaningful as that found in WW2 online for example and the combinations of units and thier battlefield roles fails to excite the mind as much as Planetsides two way 450 man persistent world battles.
Now you are comparing 3 games of different genres to 1 game that doesn't have anything similar on the market.
Similarly I can appreciate the rewards of resource control. It's a main them in WW2 online, Planetside, Civ and just about every RTS on the market. As is unit diversity. Again the key difference between an RPG enviroment and all of these other games that provide the same key elements is that the character development takes priority in the game design over any of these aspects.
How does character development take priority in Eve over resource gathering ? It isn't like you have to level up before you can do anything.
And that's why it sucks compared to them.
It is flawed. The 100% persistent world aspect is a dangerous game device. It allows for the older and more established players to dominate the game. Dominate so totally that no new players can ever hope to overthrow them. It can become stagnant. Planetside deals with this problem by weighting the resources. The closer you get to the enemies start zone the longer your supply line becomes. They have balanced it in such a way that no one can ever dominate for very long.
You are making a common mistake here when it comes to Eve leveling system. New players can catch up and it has been stated many times on these forums why so I won't bother getting into it. Older more established alliances fall apart and new ones are formed. Read up on some of Eves history and you will see this.
WW2 Online however, like Eve allows you to profit from your domination. As you control more and more resources you ability to take more improves and the ability of the enemy weakens. Unlike Eve, WW2 deals with this problem by allowing you to win. And then resetting the server.
In Eve though the universe is too large to control all of it therefore there is no "win" and no need to reset the server. Just like you say in WW2, as an alliance takes more area it becomes increasingly more difficult to maintain it.
Warcraft uses instances that reset at the end of each skirmish.
WoWs PvP is truly meaningless, it is only there to be a gear grind and nothing else so therefore not even comparable.
Guild Wars restricts charcter level and allows players to join the game at the maximum power possible if they choose.
Guild wars is a totally different type of game play, focusing on arena style ladder type pvp. Like WoW, not even comparable.
Eve on the otherhand is an RPG. Character development is the core of the game. character development is intended to be limitless. There aren't any instances. You can't reset the server and you can't allow the players to lose everything they have ever developed. And so it stagnates. The most powerful become ever more powerful and the less powerful can never catch up. It's an old game and it's not from a PvP stable. Eve hasn't incorporated the new tricks from the other PvP titles on the market. Planetside and WW2 online however were designed as PvP games from the outset. Character development, was either not inculded at all, or very limited and clearly of a lower priority to game balance.
This is just totally wrong, at this point you are just making shit up
PvP in Eve sucks. It is a mongrel. There area multitude of thoroughbred PvP games out there. PvP softwares in the 8th or 9th generations, each one more innovative than the last. Eve is an RPG.
I'm always pleased to here that someone is enjoying themselves, and even balanced PvP isn't to everyone's taste. I'm sure there are may thousands of players who activiely enjoy Eve's version of PvP. It bores me personally and I always get the irrational feeling that those who wax lyrical about it so much can't have tried so many other games.
If it was a choice of play Eve PvP or not play Eve, then I would stop playing Eve on the spot. It bores the pants off me.
So basically Eves PvP is not for you and therefore you call it shit. That would be like me saying just because I don't like to play RTS game they are garbage which would be so closed minded and stupid. Even though I don't like to play RTS games I would never call them stupid or shitty.
At this point its best to agree to disagree.
Eve has always been a game that people either love or hate. The people who love it do so because of its complexity, single world and meaningful PvP. Those that dislike Eve do so because of its steep learning curve and its combat does feel a lot slower when compared to typical MMOs such as WoW and EQ. In the end though Eve is a totally different breed of MMO and is uncomparable to any other game out there
EVE already has "non-PvP" parts. Just stay out of low sec and you'll be fine, also very bored.
However, if you want to get anywhere in EVE without having to deal with the corrupt pirate-favoring politics of major corporations and alliances, then you're f*cked.
It's a game for people with a superiority complex; if you don't have one, move on.
Try WW2 online. (WW2 online isn't strictly persisent though. You can win. When someone wins the server is reset, although this should take a few months to achieve).
I may have to check it out some time.
I enjoy Eve, just not the PvP. I've been hooked on Space Sims since 1984.
I'm not sure I agree that Eve wasn't designed to be a PvE game. Most of the games content is PvE (what there is of it). PvE aspects of the game have been there from the outset and have been added with regularity since it's release. It's primarily a PvE game. An RPG.
Eve was designed from the ground up with PvP sandbox type play in mind first and foremost and PvE content added in after.
Most of the games content is PvE ?? Most of Eves content is player generated not a series of instances that force people to farm to progress.
I am fundamentally disintrested in any PvP game that uses an RPG system. Civilisation, now there is a PvP where territory and economy matters.
But it is not an MMO. Nor a persistent world.
Eve fails in PvP in the same department as all other RPG's. The game was designed as an RPG. The priority of the game is not to rule the universe or defeat your mate, it is to advance and develop your character. Consequently the PvP plays second fiddle to this process. A good PvP game holds player balance as the absolute top priority in it's design.
PvP balance in Eve is great. With the multitude of ship types and modules there is always atleast 1 counter to a tactic your enemy may use. Im curious as to how you figure Eves pvp fails.
RPG's don't. The PvP has been tacked on the end of an essentially PvE game and as such has been critically compromised. RPG just isn't a genre that lends itself well to PvP. Now there are MMORPG's out there with worse PvP (and a couple with better), so for those who like it, I'm led to believe Eve is one of the better ones. It is also just about the least well balanced of any PvP's I've had the pleasure of.
Again Eve is a PvP game, not PvE no matter how much you say it is. CCP doesn't even call their game an RPG. They call Eve an MMOG.
I can understand the thrill and concept high of a fleet battle in Eve, but it is really poor when placed beside a 32 player game of X-wing Vs Tie Fighter. The persistent world is not as meaningful as that found in WW2 online for example and the combinations of units and thier battlefield roles fails to excite the mind as much as Planetsides two way 450 man persistent world battles.
Now you are comparing 3 games of different genres to 1 game that doesn't have anything similar on the market.
Similarly I can appreciate the rewards of resource control. It's a main them in WW2 online, Planetside, Civ and just about every RTS on the market. As is unit diversity. Again the key difference between an RPG enviroment and all of these other games that provide the same key elements is that the character development takes priority in the game design over any of these aspects.
How does character development take priority in Eve over resource gathering ? It isn't like you have to level up before you can do anything.
And that's why it sucks compared to them.
It is flawed. The 100% persistent world aspect is a dangerous game device. It allows for the older and more established players to dominate the game. Dominate so totally that no new players can ever hope to overthrow them. It can become stagnant. Planetside deals with this problem by weighting the resources. The closer you get to the enemies start zone the longer your supply line becomes. They have balanced it in such a way that no one can ever dominate for very long.
You are making a common mistake here when it comes to Eve leveling system. New players can catch up and it has been stated many times on these forums why so I won't bother getting into it. Older more established alliances fall apart and new ones are formed. Read up on some of Eves history and you will see this.
WW2 Online however, like Eve allows you to profit from your domination. As you control more and more resources you ability to take more improves and the ability of the enemy weakens. Unlike Eve, WW2 deals with this problem by allowing you to win. And then resetting the server.
In Eve though the universe is too large to control all of it therefore there is no "win" and no need to reset the server. Just like you say in WW2, as an alliance takes more area it becomes increasingly more difficult to maintain it.
Warcraft uses instances that reset at the end of each skirmish.
WoWs PvP is truly meaningless, it is only there to be a gear grind and nothing else so therefore not even comparable.
Guild Wars restricts charcter level and allows players to join the game at the maximum power possible if they choose.
Guild wars is a totally different type of game play, focusing on arena style ladder type pvp. Like WoW, not even comparable.
Eve on the otherhand is an RPG. Character development is the core of the game. character development is intended to be limitless. There aren't any instances. You can't reset the server and you can't allow the players to lose everything they have ever developed. And so it stagnates. The most powerful become ever more powerful and the less powerful can never catch up. It's an old game and it's not from a PvP stable. Eve hasn't incorporated the new tricks from the other PvP titles on the market. Planetside and WW2 online however were designed as PvP games from the outset. Character development, was either not inculded at all, or very limited and clearly of a lower priority to game balance.
This is just totally wrong, at this point you are just making shit up
PvP in Eve sucks. It is a mongrel. There area multitude of thoroughbred PvP games out there. PvP softwares in the 8th or 9th generations, each one more innovative than the last. Eve is an RPG.
I'm always pleased to here that someone is enjoying themselves, and even balanced PvP isn't to everyone's taste. I'm sure there are may thousands of players who activiely enjoy Eve's version of PvP. It bores me personally and I always get the irrational feeling that those who wax lyrical about it so much can't have tried so many other games.
If it was a choice of play Eve PvP or not play Eve, then I would stop playing Eve on the spot. It bores the pants off me.
So basically Eves PvP is not for you and therefore you call it shit. That would be like me saying just because I don't like to play RTS game they are garbage which would be so closed minded and stupid. Even though I don't like to play RTS games I would never call them stupid or shitty.
At this point its best to agree to disagree.
Eve has always been a game that people either love or hate. The people who love it do so because of its complexity, single world and meaningful PvP. Those that dislike Eve do so because of its steep learning curve and its combat does feel a lot slower when compared to typical MMOs such as WoW and EQ. In the end though Eve is a totally different breed of MMO and is uncomparable to any other game out there
Most of the in game activities in Eve are player generated, yes. As opposed to developer generated. What little development this game has had is predominantly PVE. It's a small game.
I'm well aware of Eve's history. Ever heard of BoB?
It's not a problem for me if you don't like to play RTS games. I do.
I also like to play MMORPG games. I don't call either shitty.
The PvP in RPG's is shitty. For you this equates to me calling Eve shit. That's not really something I can help you with. If all you enjoy about Eve is the PvP, good luck to you, I say.
Resource development takes priority over character development. Hello? Resource gathering is character development.
Eve is an RPG that I enjoy, but the PvP is shitty. A stagnant, boring, EZ-mode, unbalanced waste of my time. I understand that other people may enjoy it. This is not a problem for me.
Meaningful PvP? WTF is so meaningful about it? There is no story here. No reason for doing it. Just a load of bored people trying to get one over on the other bored people or develop their toons a bit faster. Same as in every other RPG's PvP.
I'll give you meaningful PvP. $100,000 for the best Guild Wars team. That means something to me.
I think the answer is pretty simple tbh, there can be no eve without pvp, it would destroy the storyline of the game and the whole concept..
Either way the game is already prepared for people that dont like to PvP, just stick to non PvP roles and join a corporation that will fit you. Joining a corp imo is the most important part of the game, doesnt matter if ur a pirate, miner, just casual pvper, manufacturer, trader or w/e, theres always a corp to join so you can play as a group. And being a figthing pilot just to kill rats is also a role ofc, theres plenty of corporations that need pilots to defend them from rats while doing ops, etc..
Being killed by gatecamps is just part of the game and if you really want to play it real you have to adapt yourself to the game and not wait for the game to adapt to your needs..
Thanks for your great and informative answe Bat, and no I don't spend a lot of time in bandit space. I have taken part in a Goonswarm however. (Frankly it bored the pants off me).
The thing about your explanation is, I get all that strategy from all my PvP games too. I agree so much about morale and discipline being the key to team games. It's something I enjoy immensely. Logistics as well. I was playing Savage 2 last night and these were the exact things I needed to think about. The keys to winning the battle.
If we take my given example of Planetside, we can see that in any one prescribed encounter a level 1 player can have the same chance of defeating a lvl 25 as the lvl 25 does defeating the level 1.
Howver this ignores that in 24/25 encounters the lvl 25 will have the drop on the level 1. He will prescribe the engagement due to his greater flexibility and access to a wider variety of skills and equipment.
It is possible for a level 5 Eve player to defeat a level zillion Eve player, in the right circumstances, but the level zillion player is more likely to control those circumstances than the level 5 player. So for every victory you can expect 20 gankings. (Further to this the older players are better socially networked, they have faster income streams and can replace any losses faster).
This is an inherant flaw in all level based systems. Even Battlefield 2's unlock system has this issue. It's not Eve specific although Eve has more issues with it than most due to the realtime skill system.
I like baff's posts.
baff's posts are the best posts. ever.
Also it is clear to me now that baff is the new Chuck Norris of these forums. And obviously his oppinions represent the absolute e-truth.
The Rpg-part dimnishes after a month in 0.0. You do not "Level your character" anymore, all people are on a similar level and can fly a basic set of ships. After that, you mostly specialize in your preferred direction while having few impact on the dominant form of PvP: Fleet Warfare. Who cares if your Trackingcomputer is t2 or not for a 3% bonus when you are flying with 100+ other battleships? Individual sp do not matter here. At all.
And this is where your agument fails: PvP DOES fail in a rpg that artificially limits you into Levels, and i agree with you. Thats why WoW PvP sucks and why Lineage PvP sucks. In Eve someone who played for a week gets accepted in a 0.0 Corp and gets tought how to survive, how to tackle, and the PvP begins. In other games i can only think of PvP when i hit max. or very high level, due to level constrains.
[/quote]
Disagree. It is not about gathering riches, until you hit max wallet-level. It is about securing a constant influx of money to finance your pvp or your industry. That requires thinking and defines how many ships you can lose in pvp. If you thought right, your income roughly equals what you plan to lose (thats how i did it. I have a rather constant income due to a functional production-line i once built up. requires a bit cargo-shipping once a month, though)
It may be part of character progression in the early days or weeks..but after the initial startup that is no longer the case.
You have admitted that you have not taken part in 0.0 Alliancewarfare but bitch about PvP, and this statement of yours says it all.
Eve in PvP matters something, because there is a Reason why someone fights. Alliances want to secure their space, want to get more space, or are on a contract against another alliance. They were provoced by someone, they may want revenge for something. It is almost never a "bah, we're bored. Lets invade Fountain". The reason is more "A year ago this alliance sent mercenaries against us. We have grown since then, time for revenge!". Or what about "Their roaming gangs came here too often. Time to end this once and for all. DIE!"?
And it matters, because you actually inflict damage to the enemy. A war is always about economics, and the current war in the south has severely damaged the economy for special moonminerals. Prices are jumpy because of the war, and as the war progresses we will see several t2 items going up, too. Because a war in one region of New Eden will affect the economy of others.
The war in the south right now has an influence on every empire-missionrunner in his caldari navy raven. That is the reason why people say that things matter in Eve: If someone loses a Titan somewhere, you WILL feel the effect somewhere else in the galaxy.
Try that in your battlegrounds. What happens after death? You respawn.
What happens after death in GW? You respawn. And maybe the Frontline will move a bit without any effect for anyone..
"The backstory told me to!" is a better reason to fight than "Fountain is MY land!"? Well, to each his own, but you will never convince me some story the devs made up is more important than defending my territory.
Who cares for BoB? Eve has a much greater history..the fall of ASCN, MOo. The Drama in the North, which is still a reason to fight for us. The Droneregions have their own history (It's just too complicated for a human being)..[/quote]The Rpg-part dimnishes after a month in 0.0. You do not "Level your character" anymore, all people are on a similar level and can fly a basic set of ships. After that, you mostly specialize in your preferred direction while having few impact on the dominant form of PvP: Fleet Warfare. Who cares if your Trackingcomputer is t2 or not for a 3% bonus when you are flying with 100+ other battleships? Individual sp do not matter here. At all.
And this is where your agument fails: PvP DOES fail in a rpg that artificially limits you into Levels, and i agree with you. Thats why WoW PvP sucks and why Lineage PvP sucks. In Eve someone who played for a week gets accepted in a 0.0 Corp and gets tought how to survive, how to tackle, and the PvP begins. In other games i can only think of PvP when i hit max. or very high level, due to level constrains.
[/quote]
Disagree. It is not about gathering riches, until you hit max wallet-level. It is about securing a constant influx of money to finance your pvp or your industry. That requires thinking and defines how many ships you can lose in pvp. If you thought right, your income roughly equals what you plan to lose (thats how i did it. I have a rather constant income due to a functional production-line i once built up. requires a bit cargo-shipping once a month, though)
It may be part of character progression in the early days or weeks..but after the initial startup that is no longer the case.
You have admitted that you have not taken part in 0.0 Alliancewarfare but bitch about PvP, and this statement of yours says it all.
Eve in PvP matters something, because there is a Reason why someone fights. Alliances want to secure their space, want to get more space, or are on a contract against another alliance. They were provoced by someone, they may want revenge for something. It is almost never a "bah, we're bored. Lets invade Fountain". The reason is more "A year ago this alliance sent mercenaries against us. We have grown since then, time for revenge!". Or what about "Their roaming gangs came here too often. Time to end this once and for all. DIE!"?
And it matters, because you actually inflict damage to the enemy. A war is always about economics, and the current war in the south has severely damaged the economy for special moonminerals. Prices are jumpy because of the war, and as the war progresses we will see several t2 items going up, too. Because a war in one region of New Eden will affect the economy of others.
The war in the south right now has an influence on every empire-missionrunner in his caldari navy raven. That is the reason why people say that things matter in Eve: If someone loses a Titan somewhere, you WILL feel the effect somewhere else in the galaxy.
Try that in your battlegrounds. What happens after death? You respawn.
What happens after death in GW? You respawn. And maybe the Frontline will move a bit without any effect for anyone..
If someone loese a Titan on BF 2121 the effects will be felt elsewhere in the galaxy. So what?
Every PvP has this.
Every PvP guild can include noobs. A role can be found for a lvl 70 green itemed charcter as much as a level 70 epic itemed. It doesn't change that RPG games are unblalanced in PvP.
There really isn't any point denying this, neither am I in any way convinced that "I'm only leveling my toon to get better in PvP" is not just leveling my toon. Same as everyone else is in every other game.
Now if you were to make the argument that you preferred PvP that was not even balanced, that perhaps for you this imitated real life conflicts. You would have a point. But you don't, you baldly claim the Eve is balanced and it isn't. It is nothing of the sort. It is the opposite of balanced. I can't think of any game on the market less balanced.
Yes PvP does fail in an RPG that limits your levels. It fails much more however in an RPG that does not.
Level limitation mitigates the extent to which one toon can outclass another. Hence Guild Wars' excellent approach of not only an early level cap, but also allowing you to join the game at max level. All players are equally matched. Advantage can only be found in personal skills, teamwork or by bonding together into guilds etc.
WoW, is a game played predominantly PvP. 2/3 servers are PvP and PvP is still played by most people on the PVE servers.
WoW has instances. Quite simply, the level 5 guy is not put up against the lvl 70. The game is designed with balance in mind, they attempt to keep similar powered people in fights. Ultimately however, WoW is still an RPG also. Although it has taken active steps to mitigate player balance, in the end it is defeated by the RPG system. That said in any raid of 100 players a level 5 can survive. It can even goonswarm if that's what you enjoy.
The predominant difference between the Eve leveling system and the leveling system of other games is that the other games have balanced theirs for PvP. For Eve, the limitless progression is their cash cow. The more time you spend levelling up the more money they make. Your level is dependant on the cash you paid them, rather than the time you spent playing. The more you have invested in an MMO, the less inclined you will be to start again somewhere new. Etc etc etc. This game is an RPG it is designed around leveling up.
And no, you wouldn't think that the extra 3% that an item in WoW gives you would make the diference in PvP, only if you have a few extra 3%'s it does. Or a combination of different spaceships all with their 3%'s and the ability to replace your losses faster than the rest, you are infact vastly outgunning the noobs. You might like to believe you are giving them fair competition. But you aren't.
If you really thought upgrading you ship made no difference, why would you waste your time doing it?
Answer: You know as well as I do, that it does.
No offense, but I won't ever be participating in your giant PvP drama.
Just as you don't care about BoB, I don't care about any of them. Guild gossip is the first sign of a stagnating game. I like larger games. With larger playerbases. With free moving league tables that don't end up just getting dominated by the same old faces all the time. This isn't a big plus in games for me. It's just raid politics. The whole inter guild bitching, grudges and smacktalking is something I avoid like the plague.
PvP games are a magnet for this kind of sour behaviour. My cliched example of PvP communites is CounterStrike. The players there have a certain social reputaton, so do the player in Eve. While not all PvP players are by any means like this, a larger proportion are. Competative games bring this out in people. Games with as slow a pace as Eve allow for a lot of type time. Things get said.
Personally I don't hold grudges, if you guild gave me a spanking, I am grateful to your for taking the time to play with me. Because for me, it's just a game. Even when I am playing on the opposing team to you, I am still playing with you. It isn't war. It's home entertainment.
In games such as these I am quite content to just do my PvE thing. I have no desire to enjoy what you enjoy. I'm alright as I am. I don't just play one game. I don't need to find a happy compromise. I can have the best of all worlds and I think I do.
So basically what you're saying is:
"I've never PvP'd in EVE and this is why PvP sucks..."
Ahem.
I think baff is a troll, or else a retard. Noone could use that weak an argument and believe it.
"I dont do alliance PvP", "PvP has no purpose".
Please tell that to all the alliances who have died solely due to PvP losses.
don't feed him.
I could point out a dozen things which are simply false in his "arguments". and the way he does not even react to any disprovings tell me he knows very well that he is lying.
much of his last posting is so idiotic it is almost beyond bullshit.
he is basically a troll who is running out of bait.
"larger playerbases" --- just lol
"With free moving league tables that don't end up just getting dominated by the same old faces all the time." --- this sentence contains so much dung it couldn't even be sold in Jita. I mean, everyone who has ever played EVE knows this guy is a troll. only complete noobs and people who never tried EVE may think he is not just trolling.
And that's his goal.
he doesn'T want to change EVE or to make something better, he doesn't even want to complain. he simply wants to keep people away from the game.
and anyone who really believes him, wouldn't fit in EVE anyway.
so he acts like a protective force against an invasion of morons into EVE.
I approve of him
Such a collection of hypocrites, any opinion that doesn't mirror the mainstream gets flamed and labeled. Is it any wonder baff didn't return to support his opinion? It would be like building a sand castle on a beach with you fanbois. His thread gets buried by your party line mentality.
Funny, we have a different opinion than him and you're flaming us for it!
I don't mind if someone doesn't like EVE but the point is he came on to these boards to bitch about things he admits he has no experience with. It's clear he has no interest in debate as he usually uses a phrase similar to, "I'm right and if you don't think so you're a fool!" Of course we correct him, we really enjoy this game and find it offensive for someone to come to the EVE boards for no other reason than to continuously bitch about the game.
Mate, baff is comparing WoW's playstyle with EvE's playstyle. That is wrong on so many levels .. its like comparing milk with heineken and saying milk is better
also if you had the attention span to read from where baff started to post on this thread you would have noticed that the first replys to his nonsense were nice and ppl tried nicely to point to him that he is wrong.(hell they even brought arguments to prove him he was wrong)
Also fyi calling EvE an rpg (sure it has some aspects of rpg but they dont define EvE), AND saying that EvE has guilds in it makes baby jebus cry. And most of us dont want to see him upset
EVE without pvp is like an oreo without the filling. F*** that.
Grow a set and learn to fight.
EVE Online player since 2007.
"Our greatest glory consist not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."
- Oliver Goldsmith
The thing is, I don't like Oreo's. I like steak.
Kiddy menu PvP's aren't my thing.
The otherway round.
PvP in Eve sucks, hence I do my PvP in other games.