Um, a LFG feature is somehow a game breaker??? I realize that I live a sheltered MMO life and all but this one shoots right over my head, I don't get why a feature that simply helps folks find someone to group with is bad, or hurts game play for anyone else in any way. But again, I am sheltered and all.
"One of the biggest improvements with the update is the addition of a Looking for Group tool. This was something everyone wanted, Hartsman said, but the team refused to rush it out the door in poor shape. It does what you would probably expect: Players can queue up for an instance by role (the system recognizes which builds you have and offers options for tank, healer, support and DPS) and then wait as the tool assembles the group for a cooperative adventure. Once a group is formed, the system thenn throws them into the maelstrom automatically. The LFG tool isn't just for dungeons, either; it's designed to help players get together for world quest content like epic or arena quests."
0 immersion.
Fortunately most, including myself, will disagree with you. LFG tools & "dungeon finders" are the wave of the future and quite convenient. Get used to it or else go play a sandbox game.
{mod edit}MMO = massively multiplayer online.. Playing a MMO I would expect to see more than a few players while running around doing quests, maybe say "Hey, are doing this quest? Want to partner up?.... instead with a dungeon queue line tool everyone just sits in the main cities waiting.
;....opposed to sitting in the main cities waiting and spamming "LFG please", i can clearly see the difference.
The difference (in WoW, for example) was that you could find a group in 15-30 minutes regardless of your class or role. So why bother going and doing anything if you're going to get into a group that quick? That's great if your definition of a good MMO is doing nothing but run the same boring dungeons over and over again every time you play. That's not what I want from my MMO.
EXACTLY! ^
Guess what? The LFG tool is optional! YOU don't have to use it!!!!
{mod edit}MMO = massively multiplayer online.. Playing a MMO I would expect to see more than a few players while running around doing quests, maybe say "Hey, are doing this quest? Want to partner up?.... instead with a dungeon queue line tool everyone just sits in the main cities waiting.
;....opposed to sitting in the main cities waiting and spamming "LFG please", i can clearly see the difference.
The difference (in WoW, for example) was that you could find a group in 15-30 minutes regardless of your class or role. So why bother going and doing anything if you're going to get into a group that quick? That's great if your definition of a good MMO is doing nothing but run the same boring dungeons over and over again every time you play. That's not what I want from my MMO.
EXACTLY! ^
Guess what? The LFG tool is optional! YOU don't have to use it!!!!
That's not really the point and I've seen this argument before. It starts to become a mantra over an actual argument.
no one would dispute that mmo's have features that a player may or may not take advantage of. That's not the issue.
The issue is a cohesive world/game experience.
Heck, I could play "perma-death" and delete my character every death. I could do this in, say, WoW. That doesn't make WoW a perma-death game.
So why do we have a small contingent of players screaming for perma-death games when they can easily do as i described above?
Because they want to be part of a world where everyone is in the same rule-set, undersands the rules for the game world and is subject to those rules.
A game world where everyone is on the same page creates an atmosphere that has a very distinct experience.
A game where everyone must interact in a certain way, run to the dungeon/citadel/whatever/ is going to feel a lot different than a game where people play it like a lobby game.
Same thing goes with quest trackers that have an "x" right where you need to find the npc pver getting instructions and the players need to explore in order to find the quest objective.
And again, it comes down to different types of people wanting distinctly different types of game play.
Though to be fair, this doesn't come as a surprise because of the type of people Trion is trying to court. So quite frankly anything going forward where Rift adopts very contemporary game play mechanics shouldn't really come as a surprise.
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{mod edit}MMO = massively multiplayer online.. Playing a MMO I would expect to see more than a few players while running around doing quests, maybe say "Hey, are doing this quest? Want to partner up?.... instead with a dungeon queue line tool everyone just sits in the main cities waiting.
;....opposed to sitting in the main cities waiting and spamming "LFG please", i can clearly see the difference.
The difference (in WoW, for example) was that you could find a group in 15-30 minutes regardless of your class or role. So why bother going and doing anything if you're going to get into a group that quick? That's great if your definition of a good MMO is doing nothing but run the same boring dungeons over and over again every time you play. That's not what I want from my MMO.
EXACTLY! ^
Guess what? The LFG tool is optional! YOU don't have to use it!!!!
Guess what? Playing the game at all is optional! Since I know from first hand experience what a LFG dungeon queue does to fuck up a game, I know I have no interest in it and will exercise my option to spend my money elsewhere.
Um, a LFG feature is somehow a game breaker??? I realize that I live a sheltered MMO life and all but this one shoots right over my head, I don't get why a feature that simply helps folks find someone to group with is bad, or hurts game play for anyone else in any way. But again, I am sheltered and all.
Because it reduces an MMO to just another multiplayer RPG with a game lobby. Except it's even less than that, because those types of games are designed around the game lobby concept and as a result have a lot more content to participate in from the game lobby. Guild Wars is a prime example of a game like that. Except instead of having one city/hub/lobby it had dozens, and more content to go with them.
But hey, if you're content with your game amounting to little more than a city and a dozen instanced dungeons, it sounds like Rift will be exactly the game for you.
I am not content with that, and Rift will not be a game I care to play.
One of the problems with the WoW LFG tool is that it works cross server. People act anti-social and rude because theres little chance they will coss each other again after that.
In Rift it will be server only, so this problem is not there, we will know the poeple and cross with them frequently in towns etc, there will be more respect
{mod edit} MMO = massively multiplayer online.. Playing a MMO I would expect to see more than a few players while running around doing quests, maybe say "Hey, are doing this quest? Want to partner up?.... instead with a dungeon queue line tool everyone just sits in the main cities waiting.
;....opposed to sitting in the main cities waiting and spamming "LFG please", i can clearly see the difference.
The difference (in WoW, for example) was that you could find a group in 15-30 minutes regardless of your class or role. So why bother going and doing anything if you're going to get into a group that quick? That's great if your definition of a good MMO is doing nothing but run the same boring dungeons over and over again every time you play. That's not what I want from my MMO.
Regardless of LFG tool, you would still be doing same boring dungeon over and over again so i don't know how is that any different. Unless you hate whole end game dungeon grind then its a completely different issue.
The difference is that when you can't get a group at the drop of a hat every 15 minutes you go find other things to do while you try to find a group. Like rifts, or world PvP, or whatever else suits your fancy. That's kind of the point of a good MMO. But you can't do any of that if 99% (that's not an exaggeration) of the level-capped population is either in an instance or sitting in town waiting to get into one.
That is your assumption since Rift has a lot going in world outside compared to WOW. Even then when i used to play WOW only high lvl characters used to sit in city and queue for dungeons while other player did it while questing, crafting, gathering and exploring. You are just exaggerating things to make your point now. But if someone wants to level only through dungeons how is that any different then questing solo outside? you are trying to control leveling habits of players in a game which is impossible to do.
I assume nothing except what has been plainly there for all to see in the most popular western MMO ever: WoW. I played WoW for over 5 years, starting about 6 months after release. I saw all its evolutions, its major changes, its expansion packs. I saw how the game was before the LFD queue and after. I know exactly what kind of changes such a tool brings. The changes I have stated such a tool causes are not opinions. They are facts. Whether or not those changes are good is preference and opinion.
Obviously my opinion is that these changes are bad, and to me, putting such a tool in a game is stupid because it almost instantaneously causes the vast majority of the game world to become a ghost town and a waste. Why bother building zones if you're just going to introduce a feature that makes no one wants to do anything in them?
But again, if that is the game you want go ahead and keep paying for it and playing it. I know from past experience I want nothing to do with such a game. My money goes elsewhere.
The main counterarguments for the LFG system seem to be that it is optional and that you can still spam LFG if you want. As Sovrath pointed out, this isn't really a valid point, because once this system releases, trying to follow those options simply means that you won't be grouping up. The community that plays Rift can and will embrace this system, whether they like it or not, because it simplifies the effort needed on their part to do dungeons and grind gear.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely against the system, and assuming the article wasn't hiding anything, I am liking how Trion is implementing this system.
Pros:
Quicker groups.
Pulls from the immediate server, so a lack of anonymity, which leads to accountability and possibly all the pluses of socializing.
Cons:
Little reason to leave a city. Same as in WoW. Yes there are still reasons, but they are few and far between. If the system teleports you to the dungeon, this will definitely hold true.
Less socializing when it comes to group formation. There are only two instances in WoW where a public channel message is sent to fill a group up in the LFD system: Someone wants to recruit a tank for an instant queue, probably for cash. Or a tank is being nice and is checking to see if anyone WANTS an instant queue. Lets face it, you aren't going to ask random people to group because if they wanted to run something, they would be in queue as well. Short of asking people that are already friends or guildies, random public social interaction due to forming groups will be near nonexistant when this comes out. Whether this is a con is up to the user in question. To me, it is.
The main counterarguments for the LFG system seem to be that it is optional and that you can still spam LFG if you want. As Sovrath pointed out, this isn't really a valid point, because once this system releases, trying to follow those options simply means that you won't be grouping up. The community that plays Rift can and will embrace this system, whether they like it or not, because it simplifies the effort needed on their part to do dungeons and grind gear.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely against the system, and assuming the article wasn't hiding anything, I am liking how Trion is implementing this system.
Pros:
Quicker groups.
Pulls from the immediate server, so a lack of anonymity, which leads to accountability and possibly all the pluses of socializing.
Cons:
Little reason to leave a city. Same as in WoW. Yes there are still reasons, but they are few and far between. If the system teleports you to the dungeon, this will definitely hold true.
Less socializing when it comes to group formation. There are only two instances in WoW where a public channel message is sent to fill a group up in the LFD system: Someone wants to recruit a tank for an instant queue, probably for cash. Or a tank is being nice and is checking to see if anyone WANTS an instant queue. Lets face it, you aren't going to ask random people to group because if they wanted to run something, they would be in queue as well. Short of asking people that are already friends or guildies, random public social interaction due to forming groups will be near nonexistant when this comes out. Whether this is a con is up to the user in question. To me, it is.
Although I myself am lucky enought to play on Whitefall, be in solid guild and therefore I never really had any trouble with finding dungeon group (what's more important never had to tank in group where we had more than 1 random member) I can understand reasons behind LFG tool. What's more important I can understand reason to have cross shard LFG tool even.
Not so long ago there was a topic on this forums about dead Rift servers. Although it was mainly just qq I decided to check myself how really situation looks on some servers. Basically what I found regarding experts (on Overlook in particular) was that while on Whitefall finding party for any dungeon even at night is not a problem then on Overlook there were total 2 groups going on and that was over 50% of level 50 population online then.
But then I guess time will tell what happens.
Also common argument about no reason to leave city and therefore having game world dead. Well, truth is that devs of every MMO game have to balance between instancing and ow gameplay. More instancing pretty much always mean not so impressive open world gameplay. And Rift as it is now regardless presence (or lack) of LFG tool is anyway too heavily instanced game to have any more interesting open world gameplay for both endgame and leveling players.
As far as I see it, there are 3 categories of players for an MMO; the casual, the immersion, and the hardcore.
The casual player looks at a tool like a dungeon finder and thinks, "Wow, that'll save me time when doing the things I want to do in the game, which is awesome because I don't have tons of time to play." The casual player desires convenience in the game for the sake of time constraints.
The immersion player has perhaps a bit more time on their hands, or has different goals when they log in (such as a roleplayer), so they would see a dungeon finder tool as something that detracts from the experience of the world as a whole. They might use it during low server population times or when their regular roleplay friends aren't online, but would otherwise steer clear.
The hardcore player sees a tool like that and practically wets themselves. They don't care where the dungeon is, or how to get there. They just want to slaughter the denizens and recieve their loot or xp. A dungeon finder tool gives them the opportunity to do dungeons over and over without having to do the (often) tedious work of locating a tank, a healer, a support, and x number of dps. Often, they are in a guild full of like minded people so they will instead be able to congregate in a common location (such as near vendors) and chain instances until their bags are full.
I sympathize with the immersion players' plight, I often feel that we've really lost the spirit of the R in RPG thanks to the MMO part of it. However, being someone that works all the time and being someone that loves to see the big, pretty numbers fly across my screen, I find myself in the other camp on this matter. I don't have the time to assemble the requisite people to do instances, then coach them all to be there at the same time. I also don't have the desire to wander through the wilderness every time my bag is full (because those mobs in the wilderness have loot too... can't... leave... it... behind...).
If you think about it, that's rather petty to quit a game over a feature that adds a lot of convenience to 2/3 categories of players, and statistically about 85% of the entire population of the game would be all for it (while a mostly made up percentage, I know that cumulatively, immersion players make up much less than 1/3 of a given game's population). Although, if there are more important features of the game that you feel make it not worth playing, then by all means quit. Just don't quit a game based solely on the notion that if the game doesn't bend to the will of your minority vote on one single matter it isn't worth playing.
If I did that, I would've dropped WoW forever ago when they nerfed Retaliation for Warriors into the ground. Anyone remember when that ability was awesome and worth more than a mouse fart? However, it was changed for balancing, and it took me a while to come around, but I realize now that it was for the best. We've all been in that minority before.
Additionally; Why NOT copy something that has been highly successful from the single most successful MMORPG in the world? Sure you can risk stepping into the camp of WoW-clone, but RIFT has plenty of features unique to itself that set it apart. I can honestly say I have never stepped into a functioning on-the-fly group that ran around coherently killing hordes of enemies. I certainly never got rewards for any of the similar activities, and I definitely couldn't do it as a level 10 character.
As a final note: Relax. You and your roleplay buddies can still act out the long and dangerous journey to the Crypt of Saszerak through the Ferylgan Forest all you like. The rest of will use the speed method. There's no reason we can't live in harmony.
But I like spamming LFG in chat while in town over and over and over till I get selected for a group. No, not really. On a more serious note I could understand If it were x-server LFG where anonymity causes some players to become uber dbags. I know there is still that chance with just the normal LFG , but normally there reputation at least takes a hit and may cause them trouble down the road in some form.
Your post and logic would be sound if you could source your figures. Dungeon finder is a tool that makes it easier for developers to ignore the problems with individual archetypes and classes and instead just make the pool bigger.
Now lets see, I can break down MMO players into 3 groups too, The Single Player online Gamer, The Social online Gamer and the Goal oriented online gamer.
The single player online gamer probably likes the dungeon finder because it saves him having to actually make friends, he is also removed from consiquence for his behaviour so he can let out all his frustrations at his real life in the game at a bunch of people he will likely never see again.
The Social online Gamer hates the dungeon finder as since its first introduction it has destroyed the socialising and community aspects of the MMOs he enjoys.
Finally the Goal Oriented gamer dislikes too as he is a player who takes his game very seriously, he values the efficiency of such a tool but only uses it when grouped with people he can trust. What he hates about is that the goals he and his friends worked so hard for are now meaningless and the group he belong to can no longer judge a persons gaming or interpersonal skills.
I feel sorry for the Casual gamer but when its clear 2/3'ds of gamers hate this tool it does not have a long term future and is only really useful for papering over the cracks of badly designed tanking and healing classes and interfaces.
(See what I did there with the made up numbers, sorry but your anecdotal made up numbers are worthless as are mine)
I think an LFG tool is a good thing to have, but the immersion dies when you just teleport in and then back out when your done. And to highlight my second point, crossrealm grouping was a terrible idea by Blizzard and I hope Trion does not do it. When you group with your own realm you are a lot less likely to encounter people trying to ruin your expirence. Not to mention you build better relationships across the server than with peopel you will likely not speak to again.
As of right now all I do is sit in town and look for groups if I feel like doing a instance, or maybe I go gather some artifacts. I dont see how having a looking for group finder is gonna change that. Its exactly the same, but hey maybe I can view a group and see who is looking for what, maybe recognize some of the members and decide if I want to join or not.
Right now, we get a pug group of 5, all in Meridian sitting around for 15 minutes sometimes, cause nobody has even thought to move towards the instance. Why?? Because its tedious, people roll and the LOSER has to go find the dungeon. Sorry but that is not ADDING immersion.
I think an LFG tool is a good thing to have, but the immersion dies when you just teleport in and then back out when your done. And to highlight my second point, crossrealm grouping was a terrible idea by Blizzard and I hope Trion does not do it. When you group with your own realm you are a lot less likely to encounter people trying to ruin your expirence. Not to mention you build better relationships across the server than with peopel you will likely not speak to again.
The problem with teleporting to an instance is that it starts a downward spiral. MMO's have already hit rock bottom and now the bottom is starting to crumble to make a new pit to fall into. So you think it's okay to teleport to the instance? How about in the future developers realise this is what people want and they remove the persistent world and instead have a lobby system, where you queue up for a group and then get teleported into a dungeon? Is that fine? Some MMO's are already going this way.
As of right now all I do is sit in town and look for groups if I feel like doing a instance, or maybe I go gather some artifacts. I dont see how having a looking for group finder is gonna change that. Its exactly the same, but hey maybe I can view a group and see who is looking for what, maybe recognize some of the members and decide if I want to join or not.
Right now, we get a pug group of 5, all in Meridian sitting around for 15 minutes sometimes, cause nobody has even thought to move towards the instance. Why?? Because its tedious, people roll and the LOSER has to go find the dungeon. Sorry but that is not ADDING immersion.
Its tedious for one reason, that being bad world design. No matter where you go in Rift its a constant battle through mobs, as its used as a not very well hidden grind mechanic.
If they addressed that, then running around the world wouldn't be that bad, and a lot quicker than it currently is. They can't do that though, as most XP for leveling comes from killing mobs. Which is sad, as it means the bad design is intentional.
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
Originally posted by grapevine
Its tedious for one reason, that being bad world design. No matter where you go in Rift its a constant battle through mobs, as its used as a not very well hidden grind mechanic.
If they addressed that, then running around the world wouldn't be that bad, and a lot quicker than it currently is. They can't do that though, as most XP for leveling comes from killing mobs. Which is sad, as it means the bad design is intentional.
This man speaks the truth.
Rift is one of the few games I've seen where the main roads do not provide a much safer route of transportation, just because of how close mobs spawn to it, and their seemingly increased range of aggro. Couple this with the fact that most mobs will dismount you after just one or two hits, followed by stacking movement debuffs on virtually every mob, and you have quick travel that is just a pain in the ass to move from one side of the map to the other.
I don't believe that this will ruin the community, however. Getting people together easier is nice, it's how they interact in the dungeon that matters, and if the community breaks down because of a simple mechanic, than it was never that close to begin with. It's like the complaints of gear score in WoW. Gear score didn't create elitism, it simply made it more public.
I think an LFG tool is a good thing to have, but the immersion dies when you just teleport in and then back out when your done. And to highlight my second point, crossrealm grouping was a terrible idea by Blizzard and I hope Trion does not do it. When you group with your own realm you are a lot less likely to encounter people trying to ruin your expirence. Not to mention you build better relationships across the server than with peopel you will likely not speak to again.
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As of right now all I do is sit in town and look for groups if I feel like doing a instance, or maybe I go gather some artifacts. I dont see how having a looking for group finder is gonna change that. Its exactly the same, but hey maybe I can view a group and see who is looking for what, maybe recognize some of the members and decide if I want to join or not.
Right now, we get a pug group of 5, all in Meridian sitting around for 15 minutes sometimes, cause nobody has even thought to move towards the instance. Why?? Because its tedious, people roll and the LOSER has to go find the dungeon. Sorry but that is not ADDING immersion.
Its tedious for one reason, that being bad world design. No matter where you go in Rift its a constant battle through mobs, as its used as a not very well hidden grind mechanic.
If they addressed that, then running around the world wouldn't be that bad, and a lot quicker than it currently is. They can't do that though, as most XP for leveling comes from killing mobs. Which is sad, as it means the bad design is intentional.
no its tedious cause nobody wants to mount and travel that far. As a defiant running to ROF im not going to be attacked by any mobs on the way, it just takes a while to get there
It might help as long as it does not go cross server. At least sevrer based you might have a chance of getting familiar with a group of regular dungeon runners so you can quit using the tool.
Sorry but am I correct in thinking many think as soon as the LFG system starts up EVERYONE will be just in the cities...?
Erm #1 It's already happening anyway, the LFG system will not affect that
and #2 Dungeon running is NOT the only 'progressive' thing to do in the game, thats the core problem with WoW's 'gear is everything' gameplay, players DO think that 'gaining gear' is the core point of a MMO - it's not, thats one of the reasons why a LOT of older gamers now basically scream blue murder at the 'theres no endgame' and 'the dungeons are too easy I have gear in x hours' comments, the CORE point of a MMORPG is the RP, you 'live' in the world and interact with it, not 'win it', Rift is more the 'classic' MMORPG then these new 'esport' MMORPGs.
Anyone that thinks the LFG system will 'kill the community', you've been only looking at a VERY minior part of the game - lets look what else is added in 1.2:
Ancient Wardstones (RVR/World PVP)
CRAFTING Rifts and 'Silver' (crafting)
The costume system (RP)
Theres a lot more comming BUT theres 3 different things outside the dungeon system that have got very little to do with 'gaining gear', 2 of which add to the world content massivily, and with more daily and raid rifts comming adding on top of the ones we have - does the LFG system anti-socalise those features? no.
The LFG system isn't a bad thing becuase of two reasons why it was in WoW (as people seem to refence that system as THE LFG system to 'copy'), Blizzard didn't support their open world only really for leveling reasons only (and also removed any open world bosses a long time ago). WoW's only 'meaningful content' was instance epics anyway, so the system never really 'made' players stay in the cities - there was little reason to leave it anyway, added to the fact they cross-relmed the LFG so many 'bad players' abused the system as they didn't always play with their server's players so couldn't get blacklisted nor didn't care.
Trion IS supporting it's open world content, and we CAN blacklist players from the LFG system as we play with everyone on OUR servers only (should really speak to Trion to add a blacklist system with it, ie just our /ignoe to filter out players we don't want to game with) - the LFG feature isn't the problem, how it was handed in the past was.
Correct me if I am wrong but the dungeons in Rift in my experience have not really been the place to go to farm gear. So this tool may allow me to complete all the dungeons but I don't think it will be like WoW.
Comments
Um, a LFG feature is somehow a game breaker??? I realize that I live a sheltered MMO life and all but this one shoots right over my head, I don't get why a feature that simply helps folks find someone to group with is bad, or hurts game play for anyone else in any way. But again, I am sheltered and all.
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Fortunately most, including myself, will disagree with you. LFG tools & "dungeon finders" are the wave of the future and quite convenient. Get used to it or else go play a sandbox game.
You guys know I am a very critical gamer. But I just don't get it why people make a fuzz over a mere technicality which is so trivial. *shrug*
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Guess what? The LFG tool is optional! YOU don't have to use it!!!!
That's not really the point and I've seen this argument before. It starts to become a mantra over an actual argument.
no one would dispute that mmo's have features that a player may or may not take advantage of. That's not the issue.
The issue is a cohesive world/game experience.
Heck, I could play "perma-death" and delete my character every death. I could do this in, say, WoW. That doesn't make WoW a perma-death game.
So why do we have a small contingent of players screaming for perma-death games when they can easily do as i described above?
Because they want to be part of a world where everyone is in the same rule-set, undersands the rules for the game world and is subject to those rules.
A game world where everyone is on the same page creates an atmosphere that has a very distinct experience.
A game where everyone must interact in a certain way, run to the dungeon/citadel/whatever/ is going to feel a lot different than a game where people play it like a lobby game.
Same thing goes with quest trackers that have an "x" right where you need to find the npc pver getting instructions and the players need to explore in order to find the quest objective.
And again, it comes down to different types of people wanting distinctly different types of game play.
Though to be fair, this doesn't come as a surprise because of the type of people Trion is trying to court. So quite frankly anything going forward where Rift adopts very contemporary game play mechanics shouldn't really come as a surprise.
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Guess what? Playing the game at all is optional! Since I know from first hand experience what a LFG dungeon queue does to fuck up a game, I know I have no interest in it and will exercise my option to spend my money elsewhere.
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Because it reduces an MMO to just another multiplayer RPG with a game lobby. Except it's even less than that, because those types of games are designed around the game lobby concept and as a result have a lot more content to participate in from the game lobby. Guild Wars is a prime example of a game like that. Except instead of having one city/hub/lobby it had dozens, and more content to go with them.
But hey, if you're content with your game amounting to little more than a city and a dozen instanced dungeons, it sounds like Rift will be exactly the game for you.
I am not content with that, and Rift will not be a game I care to play.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
One of the problems with the WoW LFG tool is that it works cross server. People act anti-social and rude because theres little chance they will coss each other again after that.
In Rift it will be server only, so this problem is not there, we will know the poeple and cross with them frequently in towns etc, there will be more respect
I assume nothing except what has been plainly there for all to see in the most popular western MMO ever: WoW. I played WoW for over 5 years, starting about 6 months after release. I saw all its evolutions, its major changes, its expansion packs. I saw how the game was before the LFD queue and after. I know exactly what kind of changes such a tool brings. The changes I have stated such a tool causes are not opinions. They are facts. Whether or not those changes are good is preference and opinion.
Obviously my opinion is that these changes are bad, and to me, putting such a tool in a game is stupid because it almost instantaneously causes the vast majority of the game world to become a ghost town and a waste. Why bother building zones if you're just going to introduce a feature that makes no one wants to do anything in them?
But again, if that is the game you want go ahead and keep paying for it and playing it. I know from past experience I want nothing to do with such a game. My money goes elsewhere.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
I like the idea of some sort of LFG tool but i´ll hate it if it makes u "jump" into the dungeon orif it is cross server.
I rather have people running around the world to get to places that all hiding at cities waiting to jump into dungeons like in WoW...
Lets´s see what happens...but it is a terrible idea if Trion makes it like that
The main counterarguments for the LFG system seem to be that it is optional and that you can still spam LFG if you want. As Sovrath pointed out, this isn't really a valid point, because once this system releases, trying to follow those options simply means that you won't be grouping up. The community that plays Rift can and will embrace this system, whether they like it or not, because it simplifies the effort needed on their part to do dungeons and grind gear.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely against the system, and assuming the article wasn't hiding anything, I am liking how Trion is implementing this system.
Pros:
Quicker groups.
Pulls from the immediate server, so a lack of anonymity, which leads to accountability and possibly all the pluses of socializing.
Cons:
Little reason to leave a city. Same as in WoW. Yes there are still reasons, but they are few and far between. If the system teleports you to the dungeon, this will definitely hold true.
Less socializing when it comes to group formation. There are only two instances in WoW where a public channel message is sent to fill a group up in the LFD system: Someone wants to recruit a tank for an instant queue, probably for cash. Or a tank is being nice and is checking to see if anyone WANTS an instant queue. Lets face it, you aren't going to ask random people to group because if they wanted to run something, they would be in queue as well. Short of asking people that are already friends or guildies, random public social interaction due to forming groups will be near nonexistant when this comes out. Whether this is a con is up to the user in question. To me, it is.
.. But in a good way.
Although I myself am lucky enought to play on Whitefall, be in solid guild and therefore I never really had any trouble with finding dungeon group (what's more important never had to tank in group where we had more than 1 random member) I can understand reasons behind LFG tool. What's more important I can understand reason to have cross shard LFG tool even.
Not so long ago there was a topic on this forums about dead Rift servers. Although it was mainly just qq I decided to check myself how really situation looks on some servers. Basically what I found regarding experts (on Overlook in particular) was that while on Whitefall finding party for any dungeon even at night is not a problem then on Overlook there were total 2 groups going on and that was over 50% of level 50 population online then.
But then I guess time will tell what happens.
Also common argument about no reason to leave city and therefore having game world dead. Well, truth is that devs of every MMO game have to balance between instancing and ow gameplay. More instancing pretty much always mean not so impressive open world gameplay. And Rift as it is now regardless presence (or lack) of LFG tool is anyway too heavily instanced game to have any more interesting open world gameplay for both endgame and leveling players.
As far as I see it, there are 3 categories of players for an MMO; the casual, the immersion, and the hardcore.
The casual player looks at a tool like a dungeon finder and thinks, "Wow, that'll save me time when doing the things I want to do in the game, which is awesome because I don't have tons of time to play." The casual player desires convenience in the game for the sake of time constraints.
The immersion player has perhaps a bit more time on their hands, or has different goals when they log in (such as a roleplayer), so they would see a dungeon finder tool as something that detracts from the experience of the world as a whole. They might use it during low server population times or when their regular roleplay friends aren't online, but would otherwise steer clear.
The hardcore player sees a tool like that and practically wets themselves. They don't care where the dungeon is, or how to get there. They just want to slaughter the denizens and recieve their loot or xp. A dungeon finder tool gives them the opportunity to do dungeons over and over without having to do the (often) tedious work of locating a tank, a healer, a support, and x number of dps. Often, they are in a guild full of like minded people so they will instead be able to congregate in a common location (such as near vendors) and chain instances until their bags are full.
I sympathize with the immersion players' plight, I often feel that we've really lost the spirit of the R in RPG thanks to the MMO part of it. However, being someone that works all the time and being someone that loves to see the big, pretty numbers fly across my screen, I find myself in the other camp on this matter. I don't have the time to assemble the requisite people to do instances, then coach them all to be there at the same time. I also don't have the desire to wander through the wilderness every time my bag is full (because those mobs in the wilderness have loot too... can't... leave... it... behind...).
If you think about it, that's rather petty to quit a game over a feature that adds a lot of convenience to 2/3 categories of players, and statistically about 85% of the entire population of the game would be all for it (while a mostly made up percentage, I know that cumulatively, immersion players make up much less than 1/3 of a given game's population). Although, if there are more important features of the game that you feel make it not worth playing, then by all means quit. Just don't quit a game based solely on the notion that if the game doesn't bend to the will of your minority vote on one single matter it isn't worth playing.
If I did that, I would've dropped WoW forever ago when they nerfed Retaliation for Warriors into the ground. Anyone remember when that ability was awesome and worth more than a mouse fart? However, it was changed for balancing, and it took me a while to come around, but I realize now that it was for the best. We've all been in that minority before.
Additionally; Why NOT copy something that has been highly successful from the single most successful MMORPG in the world? Sure you can risk stepping into the camp of WoW-clone, but RIFT has plenty of features unique to itself that set it apart. I can honestly say I have never stepped into a functioning on-the-fly group that ran around coherently killing hordes of enemies. I certainly never got rewards for any of the similar activities, and I definitely couldn't do it as a level 10 character.
As a final note: Relax. You and your roleplay buddies can still act out the long and dangerous journey to the Crypt of Saszerak through the Ferylgan Forest all you like. The rest of will use the speed method. There's no reason we can't live in harmony.
But I like spamming LFG in chat while in town over and over and over till I get selected for a group. No, not really. On a more serious note I could understand If it were x-server LFG where anonymity causes some players to become uber dbags. I know there is still that chance with just the normal LFG , but normally there reputation at least takes a hit and may cause them trouble down the road in some form.
Your post and logic would be sound if you could source your figures. Dungeon finder is a tool that makes it easier for developers to ignore the problems with individual archetypes and classes and instead just make the pool bigger.
Now lets see, I can break down MMO players into 3 groups too, The Single Player online Gamer, The Social online Gamer and the Goal oriented online gamer.
The single player online gamer probably likes the dungeon finder because it saves him having to actually make friends, he is also removed from consiquence for his behaviour so he can let out all his frustrations at his real life in the game at a bunch of people he will likely never see again.
The Social online Gamer hates the dungeon finder as since its first introduction it has destroyed the socialising and community aspects of the MMOs he enjoys.
Finally the Goal Oriented gamer dislikes too as he is a player who takes his game very seriously, he values the efficiency of such a tool but only uses it when grouped with people he can trust. What he hates about is that the goals he and his friends worked so hard for are now meaningless and the group he belong to can no longer judge a persons gaming or interpersonal skills.
I feel sorry for the Casual gamer but when its clear 2/3'ds of gamers hate this tool it does not have a long term future and is only really useful for papering over the cracks of badly designed tanking and healing classes and interfaces.
(See what I did there with the made up numbers, sorry but your anecdotal made up numbers are worthless as are mine)
LFG tools are only good when they:
1. Do NOT teleport your group to the instance.
and
2. Are not Cross-Realm.
I think an LFG tool is a good thing to have, but the immersion dies when you just teleport in and then back out when your done. And to highlight my second point, crossrealm grouping was a terrible idea by Blizzard and I hope Trion does not do it. When you group with your own realm you are a lot less likely to encounter people trying to ruin your expirence. Not to mention you build better relationships across the server than with peopel you will likely not speak to again.
this is great, also a 5th slot!!!! yay!!!!!
As of right now all I do is sit in town and look for groups if I feel like doing a instance, or maybe I go gather some artifacts. I dont see how having a looking for group finder is gonna change that. Its exactly the same, but hey maybe I can view a group and see who is looking for what, maybe recognize some of the members and decide if I want to join or not.
Right now, we get a pug group of 5, all in Meridian sitting around for 15 minutes sometimes, cause nobody has even thought to move towards the instance. Why?? Because its tedious, people roll and the LOSER has to go find the dungeon. Sorry but that is not ADDING immersion.
The problem with teleporting to an instance is that it starts a downward spiral. MMO's have already hit rock bottom and now the bottom is starting to crumble to make a new pit to fall into. So you think it's okay to teleport to the instance? How about in the future developers realise this is what people want and they remove the persistent world and instead have a lobby system, where you queue up for a group and then get teleported into a dungeon? Is that fine? Some MMO's are already going this way.
Its tedious for one reason, that being bad world design. No matter where you go in Rift its a constant battle through mobs, as its used as a not very well hidden grind mechanic.
If they addressed that, then running around the world wouldn't be that bad, and a lot quicker than it currently is. They can't do that though, as most XP for leveling comes from killing mobs. Which is sad, as it means the bad design is intentional.
This man speaks the truth.
Rift is one of the few games I've seen where the main roads do not provide a much safer route of transportation, just because of how close mobs spawn to it, and their seemingly increased range of aggro. Couple this with the fact that most mobs will dismount you after just one or two hits, followed by stacking movement debuffs on virtually every mob, and you have quick travel that is just a pain in the ass to move from one side of the map to the other.
I don't believe that this will ruin the community, however. Getting people together easier is nice, it's how they interact in the dungeon that matters, and if the community breaks down because of a simple mechanic, than it was never that close to begin with. It's like the complaints of gear score in WoW. Gear score didn't create elitism, it simply made it more public.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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no its tedious cause nobody wants to mount and travel that far. As a defiant running to ROF im not going to be attacked by any mobs on the way, it just takes a while to get there
It might help as long as it does not go cross server. At least sevrer based you might have a chance of getting familiar with a group of regular dungeon runners so you can quit using the tool.
Sorry but am I correct in thinking many think as soon as the LFG system starts up EVERYONE will be just in the cities...?
Erm #1 It's already happening anyway, the LFG system will not affect that
and #2 Dungeon running is NOT the only 'progressive' thing to do in the game, thats the core problem with WoW's 'gear is everything' gameplay, players DO think that 'gaining gear' is the core point of a MMO - it's not, thats one of the reasons why a LOT of older gamers now basically scream blue murder at the 'theres no endgame' and 'the dungeons are too easy I have gear in x hours' comments, the CORE point of a MMORPG is the RP, you 'live' in the world and interact with it, not 'win it', Rift is more the 'classic' MMORPG then these new 'esport' MMORPGs.
Anyone that thinks the LFG system will 'kill the community', you've been only looking at a VERY minior part of the game - lets look what else is added in 1.2:
Ancient Wardstones (RVR/World PVP)
CRAFTING Rifts and 'Silver' (crafting)
The costume system (RP)
Theres a lot more comming BUT theres 3 different things outside the dungeon system that have got very little to do with 'gaining gear', 2 of which add to the world content massivily, and with more daily and raid rifts comming adding on top of the ones we have - does the LFG system anti-socalise those features? no.
The LFG system isn't a bad thing becuase of two reasons why it was in WoW (as people seem to refence that system as THE LFG system to 'copy'), Blizzard didn't support their open world only really for leveling reasons only (and also removed any open world bosses a long time ago). WoW's only 'meaningful content' was instance epics anyway, so the system never really 'made' players stay in the cities - there was little reason to leave it anyway, added to the fact they cross-relmed the LFG so many 'bad players' abused the system as they didn't always play with their server's players so couldn't get blacklisted nor didn't care.
Trion IS supporting it's open world content, and we CAN blacklist players from the LFG system as we play with everyone on OUR servers only (should really speak to Trion to add a blacklist system with it, ie just our /ignoe to filter out players we don't want to game with) - the LFG feature isn't the problem, how it was handed in the past was.
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
Correct me if I am wrong but the dungeons in Rift in my experience have not really been the place to go to farm gear. So this tool may allow me to complete all the dungeons but I don't think it will be like WoW.