Um, a LFG feature is somehow a game breaker??? I realize that I live a sheltered MMO life and all but this one shoots right over my head, I don't get why a feature that simply helps folks find someone to group with is bad, or hurts game play for anyone else in any way. But again, I am sheltered and all.
Because it reduces an MMO to just another multiplayer RPG with a game lobby. Except it's even less than that, because those types of games are designed around the game lobby concept and as a result have a lot more content to participate in from the game lobby. Guild Wars is a prime example of a game like that. Except instead of having one city/hub/lobby it had dozens, and more content to go with them.
But hey, if you're content with your game amounting to little more than a city and a dozen instanced dungeons, it sounds like Rift will be exactly the game for you.
I am not content with that, and Rift will not be a game I care to play.
Thats a good point, didn't look at it like that. And I'm not a fan of the Guild Wars type of games.
People keep pointing it out and people of course just keep ignoring it.
Some of you keep arguing "it takes away from the social aspect, you join a group, teleport and kill, nobody talks."
Answer: "after spending 30 minutes to 3 hours shouting LFG you get a group go to the dungeon dont talk and kill."
The tool does not change anything other than making gaming much more convenient. It is and always will be an improvement, not a detrement.
These arent camp in one spot and chat while killing the same exact mob repeatedly games. I enjoy that fact very much.
The tool isnt the bad thing, if a game doesnt give you reason to go out in the world its not the tools fault.
Trion and Rift have a pretty cool world system, Rifts are great and live up to the games title. If Rifts are not worth being out in the world for then they just need to make it so. Or add other worldly events to give people a reason to be out killing and running around the world.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief. Join me on TwitchFacebook Twitter
What I dislike about the LFG tools is that no one has tried to redesign them. They let the tool do everything; set up roles in group, invite everyone and teleport them into the dungeon. They don't even give an opportunity for communication. I say design a LFG tool that helps you find someone, set up communication with that people while finding the rest of the group.
Part of the adventure would be finding each other and traveling to the dungeon. Set up a road ambush versus NPCs, increase the mounted move speed according to how many members of your LFG group are present, rework the auto follow and perhaps even an auto travel (it's hard to type while driving), allow players to teleport to nearby teammates, you got to get these people talking to some extent.
Make something happen while traveling to dungeons and reward players for this. The rewards don't even have to be that big; XP bonus depending on the actual traveling time, buffs, chance on rare gear rewards. As long as they are not totally afk, they should get credit for it. This may even include a premade/guild run, they might want to invite the group 30 mins before they go to receive a nice buff or some type of reward.
Correct me if I am wrong but the dungeons in Rift in my experience have not really been the place to go to farm gear. So this tool may allow me to complete all the dungeons but I don't think it will be like WoW.
Yes and No
For 'raiding' T1 experts need the last two dungeon's gear in normal mode and/or crafted epics to be able to 'hit' properly, T2 needs some T1, but Greenscale (dunno about the latest one but assuming it's the same level) needs mostly T1 and T2, thats the assumtion... That said it's still possible to do Raid Rifts and Greenscale is not impossible to do but VERY hard in just a few bits of T1/crafted gear without greens
However, 1.2 brings other options to the table, the Crafting Rifts and 'Silver' may open up more reasonable craftable gear to raid with, plus Rank 1 and 2 PVP gear will be scaled up towards the T1 dungeon gear and Ranks 4-5 will become like T2 (It was in the orginal notes, but not in the current as well as most of the pvp updates and craft window have gone - this may have been removed/delayed or just not this PTR's patch testing).
Dungeons still are the fastest route to 'top teir' but Trion are trying to vary the route by supporting normally considered 'mini-games' PVP and crafting as part of the core game
Adding a LFG tool is a no brainer. Nothing bugs me more than wanting to run an instance when no one's around. And nothing is less fun to me than trying to organize a group, especially during off hours. I'm sure that there are hardcore purists that oppose any convenience tools but those people are almost definitely a minority (and minorities based on philosophies that try to enforce their lifestyles/views/hardships on others should be ignored).
I can see both sides of this issue, I personally don't like the LFG tool and think its just another option that erodes server communities that just isn't needed and I wish we could live without. I also see that it is useful for those that just want to jump into a dungeon and just start killing since they may be: 1) low on time or 2) just to lazy to start a group or have problems creating a group through the lfg channel. The reason I don't like it comes from its use in WoW, and how that game was changed from its implementation.
Back in BC when there was no LFG tool. The game was very server focused and very guild based and it seperated who was there for themselves and who was there for the good of the guild or group.If you had a bad reputation for just being a dick or a ninja, the server would know you, and people thought twice about inviting you to anything. Guilds were more dedicated, people were willing to go out of their way for each other. We earned each others friendship through doing dungeons for each other even when we didn't feel like doing it since many times finding a group through LFG was impossible because of the persons skill or gear. When people rolled alts within the guild, people would get together and power level you since putting together a group of guild members and just trashing dungeons was great fun, conversing and discussing game information or real life things building rapport within a guild. The mindset of the players was for each other and to help each other succeed, if they didn't know their class people taught you and wanted to help you learn. The metagame was still low key and not quite as developed so most people relied on each other for information and the server community to get things done.
Then came Wrath and later on the Dungeon tool which sealed the games fate and argueably the fates of future MMOs in general. The game was already starting to be dumb downed and changed to draw in more casual players and also just players that didn't have the skill or the intent to master a class. The dungeons were shorter, bosses easier and the gear much faster to obtain. The skill level of the players started to drop, expectations and patience started to suffer and erode. The playerbase started to become lazier and lazier, the skill level lower and lower until bam...the Dungeon Finder Tool was implemented to "help" players move along even faster and with lesser difficulty.
LF dungeon groups were the first to go, then the expectation of running dungeons with guilds started to fall since people would just tell you "just use the dungeon tool if you want to run a dungeon, you can get a group quicker that way". Loyalites started to bleed out since people didn't need anyone to get geared they could just use the LFG tool to get into groups. Communicating started to break down, people became like mercenaries always expecting a reward for everything, offering their "services" for money so that people can get fast queues. Economies started to get affected since the "lone wolf ","out for himself" mentality started to cause people to double, triple their prices on even the lowest goods since everyone wants theirs. Gearscore and Recount became a necessary evil since the player skill base has become all but dried up and depleted and people become only numbers to be calculated so that raid guilds can get "their" raid gear.
Server communties are like car engines, once one components starts to fail, it starts spreading into the other parts which get worn and weathered until they too start to go and the engine slowly starts to die. Its a big downward spiral that has slowly but surely changed WoW, and MMOs in general from worlds into slot machines.
The thing that I think makes the difference is the mindset that the Dungeon Tool instills in communites. Once you don't have to rely on guilds for grouping or for leveling you are taking away the chances of naturally building loyalites and comradery through grouping and making "on the spot" friendships since people are always going to take the path of least resistance. If its faster and easier to use the dungeon finder tool then why ever make a group again using the chat? why even bother joining a guild if I don't really even need them for anything other then to chat? it doesn't even end there the mentality it creates start to spread into other areas. As you level you dont need to make connections, you don't build rapport with anyone so by the time you hit endgame you don't know anyone and they don't know you...they look at you like an applicant rather then a friend, a number to be evaluated and not a person to know. All you have left by the time you hit end game is harder difficulty dungeons and raids, which require you play above average from the get go or risked being kicked and ridiculed by a already disconnected playerbase.
The one good thing about Rifts dungeon tool is the fact that it is not cross-server, that alone makes it better. I think the system will turn out better for Rift then it did for WoW, since WoWs playerbase was already at a low point by the time it was implemented. With Rift I think it may actually help people get together as a server because you can still build a reputation and the players you will work with throughout your journey will remember you and know who you are from experience in groups. Only thing it still perputates is the lack of real need for anyone else but it still gives you the chance that you can naturally build loyalites/comradery when grouping with people on the same server it helps even it out.
This is all my opinion and in no way do I think it is fact beyond a reasonable doubt. This is just my experience with the dungeon tool and how I feel it has affected the WOW community. I don't expect this to be true of everyones experiences.
1. I put in LFG or a BG and start questing...then 10-30 minutes later I am in a group. A nice break from questing.
2. I can create a toon that is simply designed for dungeons or battleground pvp combat. Presently, I have a priest that I do not need to worry about making questing survivable. He only runs dungeons and bgs. I have a Warlock that has a dungeon build and a PVP build.
3. My first toon...I didn't even join a dungeon till I was level 62.
Disclaimer
I will clarify that I am a solo mmo player.
I rarely join guilds and I am very inconsistent with my game play.
I jump into games and out of games.
I have had stints as a hardcore gamer, but they never last that long.
I have a full-time job (55-60 hour work week.)
Currently Play: ? Occasionally Play: Champions, Pirates of the Burning Sea, WOW, EVE ONLINE
How is the dungeon tool any different then spamming lfg for 3 hours, getting into a pug, having 1 person run to the dungeon and having everyone in the group instantly teleported there?
didnt you know? sitting around spamming LFG is social somehow.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
How is the dungeon tool any different then spamming lfg for 3 hours, getting into a pug, having 1 person run to the dungeon and having everyone in the group instantly teleported there?
didnt you know? sitting around spamming LFG is social somehow.
Actually its not that, its that unless its cross-server it is no different. However it does have a physiological effect at a social level, as it results in less global chat, which can make servers feel dead.
People aren't looking for a group and ignoring calls for members. Adding the feature as it is isn't going to make a blind bit of difference. The issue mostly exists due to lower population and/or guilds being more exclusive in their runs. Adding a localised "dungeon finder" isn't going to suddenly increase the number of people looking.
I'm not a fan of the feature but it "works" in WoW for two reasons. 1) Its cross server, so the pool for members is a lot higher for low population servers. 2) It ports you to the dungeon, then back to where you were upon completion. Therefore it doesn't disrupt other activities (i.e. having to run back to where one was). So people are willing to use it even if they aren't that bothered about actually doing a dungeon, as they know they can easly pick up from where they were.
Neither of those two scenarios are being implemented in Rift, so it adds no benefit over asking in global chat, other than one doesn't need to communicate. Just like most things they've copied, TRION don't seem to understand why they exist and what makes them successful.
How is the dungeon tool any different then spamming lfg for 3 hours, getting into a pug, having 1 person run to the dungeon and having everyone in the group instantly teleported there?
didnt you know? sitting around spamming LFG is social somehow.
Compared to sitting in a queue and talking to no one, it's very social. Of course, that's not the only social benefits that get lost with a queue, but it's the one you thought you could be sarcastic about and make it seem like it's nothing. Thing is, even in this one small aspect you're wrong.
How is the dungeon tool any different then spamming lfg for 3 hours, getting into a pug, having 1 person run to the dungeon and having everyone in the group instantly teleported there?
didnt you know? sitting around spamming LFG is social somehow.
Actually its not that, its that unless its cross-server it is no different. However it does have a physiological effect at a social level, as it results in less global chat, which can make servers feel dead.
People aren't looking for a group and ignoring calls for members. Adding the feature as it is isn't going to make a blind bit of difference. The issue mostly exists due to lower population and/or guilds being more exclusive in their runs. Adding a localised "dungeon finder" isn't going to suddenly increase the number of people looking.
I'm not a fan of the feature but it "works" in WoW for two reasons. 1) Its cross server, so the pool for members is a lot higher for low population servers. 2) It ports you to the dungeon, then back to where you were upon completion. Therefore it doesn't disrupt other activities (i.e. having to run back to where one was). So people are willing to use it even if they aren't that bothered about actually doing a dungeon, as they know they can easly pick up from where they were.
Neither of those two scenarios are being implemented in Rift, so it adds no benefit over asking in global chat, other than one doesn't need to communicate. Just like most things they've copied, TRION don't seem to understand why they exist and what makes them successful.
Considering the LFG system pre-dates WoW and WoW is the only game to have cross-server support, are you implying LFG systems were a 'failure' until Blizzard came around?
The LFG system works as it displays more then what the players actally say plus you don't lose players in the sea of spam
I personally had hoped the "lfg tool" would be like the old style wow once used that let you put your name, class, and role on a list for people to look at and assemble a group then head to the dungeon.
Problem is, the "let me do all the work for you so you don't have to do anything but sit in town" aspect that blizzard put in the middle of lich king kinda made what would have been an awesome expansion to level in afterward... dead.
It's like drying up a lake, setting up an olympic sized pool, and putting up a sign saying "Swim here!" on the dried up lake. No one's gonna do it when you got the olympic sized pool.
if they set up the proper restrictions like requiring you to be in the area to queue, or at least putting a long cooldown so people can't use it to spam dungeons, rendering the world, and the point of rifts, moot it would work.
convenience is like drinking, both should be done in moderation, too much can screw your entire world up.
How is the dungeon tool any different then spamming lfg for 3 hours, getting into a pug, having 1 person run to the dungeon and having everyone in the group instantly teleported there?
didnt you know? sitting around spamming LFG is social somehow.
Compared to sitting in a queue and talking to no one, it's very social. Of course, that's not the only social benefits that get lost with a queue, but it's the one you thought you could be sarcastic about and make it seem like it's nothing. Thing is, even in this one small aspect you're wrong.
While waiting for that last member to show up you had a chance to chat with the rest of the group members and thus made acquaintancies within the game. Also, those people you found on LFG channel probably really wanted to run the dungeon, and they really wanted to finish it rather than rush for the last boss and leave the group after first wipe.
Running dungeons used to feel like the final phase of a quest you had being doing for an entire day, and finding a group for that was actually a part of the quest. Dungeon finder tool makes it more like a mini-game you can repeat as many times as you want.
Actually its not that, its that unless its cross-server it is no different. However it does have a physiological effect at a social level, as it results in less global chat, which can make servers feel dead.
People aren't looking for a group and ignoring calls for members. Adding the feature as it is isn't going to make a blind bit of difference. The issue mostly exists due to lower population and/or guilds being more exclusive in their runs. Adding a localised "dungeon finder" isn't going to suddenly increase the number of people looking.
I'm not a fan of the feature but it "works" in WoW for two reasons. 1) Its cross server, so the pool for members is a lot higher for low population servers. 2) It ports you to the dungeon, then back to where you were upon completion. Therefore it doesn't disrupt other activities (i.e. having to run back to where one was). So people are willing to use it even if they aren't that bothered about actually doing a dungeon, as they know they can easly pick up from where they were.
Neither of those two scenarios are being implemented in Rift, so it adds no benefit over asking in global chat, other than one doesn't need to communicate. Just like most things they've copied, TRION don't seem to understand why they exist and what makes them successful.
Considering the LFG system pre-dates WoW and WoW is the only game to have cross-server support, are you implying LFG systems were a 'failure' until Blizzard came around?
The LFG system works as it displays more then what the players actally say plus you don't lose players in the sea of spam
The LFG systems you are referring to were (usually) very basic, and most of the time didn't work as an automated grouping function. People still mostly formed groups through communicating.
WoW's orginal LFG system was similar, and worked fine. Amongst other reasons, they eventually changed it to ease issues on lower population servers with wait times.
The argument that if you don't want to use the LFD tool, then you don't have to really cracks me up. Are people that say this really that blind as to what this does to server communities? Perhaps they don't care and just want their loots? I'm so confused.
For the record, i'm fine with the tool as long as it's not cross server.
Trion implemented their dungeon finder in a way that it can be used cross-server, too. They just start out with a local version. But when reading about empty servers you may guess what comes next.
I agree with almost everybody in this thread. Dungeon finders destroy communities, and they are a convenient tool for players who don't want to spend time to get rewarded with loot. While a lfg tool is a must have for a big MMORPG, a dungeon finder is a may not have - it degrades the game to a singleplayer diablo with crazy mercenaries.
Imho the root cause of all evil are instances. Maybe rift would have been really really great if they just had left out all instances, and instead had setup group content in the real world (actually they did with their group rifts, but no one is interested in them anymore - and they will be ignored completely once the dungeon finder _hits_ the servers).
Ah, and one word to the beancounters: of course the immersonists and hardcore gamers are a minority in rift - because they are not playing it, because rift is targeting another market. We will see (again) how good it works to clone wow. Not releasing sub-numbers tells more than numbers...
Reading is fundamental...but when 99% of the internet populace can't even spell the word "you" correctly, how can you expect someone to actually grasp what is being read?
lol, not related to the discussion itself, but your statement about not spelling "you" correctly reminds me of a great quote I saw on a forum somewhere (may have been here):
"If you say "plz" because it's shorter than "please", I'll say "no" because it's shorter than "yes"".
Great stuff.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I will enjoy this. I leveled my first char, but the solo play is 100% ****ing horrible. Worst I've ever seen. I found some people to play with, pretty fast, but 1-20 was the most boring thing I've ever done in a game. If people can't find anyone to play with, it will ruin the game in the first hour, easily.
Trion implemented their dungeon finder in a way that it can be used cross-server, too. They just start out with a local version. But when reading about empty servers you may guess what comes next.
I agree with almost everybody in this thread. Dungeon finders destroy communities, and they are a convenient tool for players who don't want to spend time to get rewarded with loot. While a lfg tool is a must have for a big MMORPG, a dungeon finder is a may not have - it degrades the game to a singleplayer diablo with crazy mercenaries.
Imho the root cause of all evil are instances. Maybe rift would have been really really great if they just had left out all instances, and instead had setup group content in the real world (actually they did with their group rifts, but no one is interested in them anymore - and they will be ignored completely once the dungeon finder _hits_ the servers).
Ah, and one word to the beancounters: of course the immersonists and hardcore gamers are a minority in rift - because they are not playing it, because rift is targeting another market. We will see (again) how good it works to clone wow. Not releasing sub-numbers tells more than numbers...
Good post. I also think your statement that instances are "the root cause of all evil" has some merit.
BUT the best times I have in MMOs are when I find a good, social group and we have a rolicking difficult time, lots of wipes, and then a final victory. Most often this is IN AN INSTANCE. Sometimes with a guild group, other times a PUG.
I think many would say something similar so leaving out instances isn't a real option for devs.
I agree with almost everybody in this thread. Dungeon finders destroy communities, and they are a convenient tool for players who don't want to spend time to get rewarded with loot. While a lfg tool is a must have for a big MMORPG, a dungeon finder is a may not have - it degrades the game to a singleplayer diablo with crazy mercenaries.
Rift is loot centric - most people play to get "better" loot and more XP. Instances / warfronts treadmill for the next tier of loot, raids treadmill for the "ultimate" loot, then content update or expansion, rinse, repeat. There are no social hubs, people are rarely interested in "other" activities than farming something instanced anyway, even the RP servers (only speaking for the EU servers here) have a terrible community (~45% of people act like spoiled kids, another ~45% of people act like bitter old men who think their opinion is an universal truth, ~10% of people are actually nice). For such a game, a dungeon finder tool fits perfectly (proven in WoW).
Yes, when WoW launched, the game's community was better than it is now, because many of the people who went to WoW came from older games, where the social aspect played a role (because of their actions, the "bad seeds" were excluding themselves from the community and automatically from every activity, as the games were group oriented, even for leveling). In our days, everyone knows what great "community" WoW holds. In Rift, the community is as bad as in WoW already, most people came from there, there's not much more to "break".
Trion implemented their dungeon finder in a way that it can be used cross-server, too. They just start out with a local version. But when reading about empty servers you may guess what comes next.
I agree with almost everybody in this thread. Dungeon finders destroy communities, and they are a convenient tool for players who don't want to spend time to get rewarded with loot. While a lfg tool is a must have for a big MMORPG, a dungeon finder is a may not have - it degrades the game to a singleplayer diablo with crazy mercenaries.
Imho the root cause of all evil are instances. Maybe rift would have been really really great if they just had left out all instances, and instead had setup group content in the real world (actually they did with their group rifts, but no one is interested in them anymore - and they will be ignored completely once the dungeon finder _hits_ the servers).
Ah, and one word to the beancounters: of course the immersonists and hardcore gamers are a minority in rift - because they are not playing it, because rift is targeting another market. We will see (again) how good it works to clone wow. Not releasing sub-numbers tells more than numbers...
Good post. I also think your statement that instances are "the root cause of all evil" has some merit.
BUT the best times I have in MMOs are when I find a good, social group and we have a rolicking difficult time, lots of wipes, and then a final victory. Most often this is IN AN INSTANCE. Sometimes with a guild group, other times a PUG.
I think many would say something similar so leaving out instances isn't a real option for devs.
a) You enjoy grouping and beating challenging content. This is only related to instances because the developers nowadays hide the group content in instances.
b) Old, successfull games like uo, eq1, daoc, etc had no instances. Do you remember vanguard (2007)? There were no instances (until soe bought and ruined it - the game just failed because of missing funds, not because of missing instances). So leaving out instances is very well an option. Some people might argue that this will increase development cost. This is not the case, because you can create five copy-paste-areas for five groups in the same time like creating one instance that can be run by five groups.
The point in instances is that the groups cannot interfere with each other, and so the game becomes more streamlined - i.e. instances are a consequent way to continue putting players on rails, and removing the need for social skills. Removing social requirements from your game is attracting then the wow-players. At least the developers hope so, and deliver failure after failure. It is like having one-man-pubs, where everybody is spereated from the other guests. May be fun if it is the first pub you ever visited...
Like you said, it is entertaining to progress and beat challenging content with your friends. Rift completely lacks progression and challenge, and now removes the last barrier that requires people to talk to each other. At least they are consequent...
When I read the arguments against it, I can't help but feel that I'm a carpenter's assisstant. I pick up a hammer and hand it to him, but he goes into a rage and says he refuses to use it because it makes knocking nails in "Too easy" O.o. Me? I just think "Why does it matter what tool you use as long as the house gets built?"
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
LOL
bad bad analogy....
let me fix it up for you...
you are the carpenter right? and why use a carpenter now when you can simply use a prefab... saves money and time... in fact why even have the carpenter profession anymore when you can simply just drive your prefabbed part of the house to the front door for you... and you dont need to do anything.. heck you dont even need to leave the house to shop for it. we bring everything to your home etc.
how does that sound for you?
dungeon finder will cause people to NOT TRAVEL TO THE DUNGEON... i think its you who is confused on the matter. Why even have the dungeons in the world now? if you dont need to travel to them. Why even have the dungeon in the world at all... heck you only need the dungeon queue and you get ported to the server.
When I read the arguments against it, I can't help but feel that I'm a carpenter's assisstant. I pick up a hammer and hand it to him, but he goes into a rage and says he refuses to use it because it makes knocking nails in "Too easy" O.o. Me? I just think "Why does it matter what tool you use as long as the house gets built?"
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
LOL
bad bad analogy....
let me fix it up for you...
you are the carpenter right? and why use a carpenter now when you can simply use a prefab... saves money and time... in fact why even have the carpenter profession anymore when you can simply just drive your prefabbed part of the house to the front door for you... and you dont need to do anything.. heck you dont even need to leave the house to shop for it. we bring everything to your home etc.
how does that sound for you?
dungeon finder will cause people to NOT TRAVEL TO THE DUNGEON... i think its you who is confused on the matter. Why even have the dungeons in the world now? if you dont need to travel to them. Why even have the dungeon in the world at all... heck you only need the dungeon queue and you get ported to the server.
[Mod Edit]
The drop in rift has already been seen. WoW is still going strong.
I'm generallly against this tool, more so if they were to implement it cross server which I feel really is detrimental to the community.
However, if they keep it single shard then it will be a good fit as this type of quest/dungeon heavy MMO really benefits from these systems more so than other design styles.
Let's face facts folks, the main design of Rift is not to create a virtual world or an exploration heavy experience. It's primary a gear grinder, and the main focus is for players to keep running dungeons /raids endlessly in search of better and better gear. This mechanic is perfect for making this process as effcient as possible, so might as well put it in.
Trouble comes when you try to make Rift into an MMO that its not, then the tool becomes very undesireable, but for the stated design its the right decision.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
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Comments
Thats a good point, didn't look at it like that. And I'm not a fan of the Guild Wars type of games.
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People keep pointing it out and people of course just keep ignoring it.
Some of you keep arguing "it takes away from the social aspect, you join a group, teleport and kill, nobody talks."
Answer: "after spending 30 minutes to 3 hours shouting LFG you get a group go to the dungeon dont talk and kill."
The tool does not change anything other than making gaming much more convenient. It is and always will be an improvement, not a detrement.
These arent camp in one spot and chat while killing the same exact mob repeatedly games. I enjoy that fact very much.
The tool isnt the bad thing, if a game doesnt give you reason to go out in the world its not the tools fault.
Trion and Rift have a pretty cool world system, Rifts are great and live up to the games title. If Rifts are not worth being out in the world for then they just need to make it so. Or add other worldly events to give people a reason to be out killing and running around the world.
Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
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What I dislike about the LFG tools is that no one has tried to redesign them. They let the tool do everything; set up roles in group, invite everyone and teleport them into the dungeon. They don't even give an opportunity for communication. I say design a LFG tool that helps you find someone, set up communication with that people while finding the rest of the group.
Part of the adventure would be finding each other and traveling to the dungeon. Set up a road ambush versus NPCs, increase the mounted move speed according to how many members of your LFG group are present, rework the auto follow and perhaps even an auto travel (it's hard to type while driving), allow players to teleport to nearby teammates, you got to get these people talking to some extent.
Make something happen while traveling to dungeons and reward players for this. The rewards don't even have to be that big; XP bonus depending on the actual traveling time, buffs, chance on rare gear rewards. As long as they are not totally afk, they should get credit for it. This may even include a premade/guild run, they might want to invite the group 30 mins before they go to receive a nice buff or some type of reward.
EDIT: spelling
Yes and No
For 'raiding' T1 experts need the last two dungeon's gear in normal mode and/or crafted epics to be able to 'hit' properly, T2 needs some T1, but Greenscale (dunno about the latest one but assuming it's the same level) needs mostly T1 and T2, thats the assumtion... That said it's still possible to do Raid Rifts and Greenscale is not impossible to do but VERY hard in just a few bits of T1/crafted gear without greens
However, 1.2 brings other options to the table, the Crafting Rifts and 'Silver' may open up more reasonable craftable gear to raid with, plus Rank 1 and 2 PVP gear will be scaled up towards the T1 dungeon gear and Ranks 4-5 will become like T2 (It was in the orginal notes, but not in the current as well as most of the pvp updates and craft window have gone - this may have been removed/delayed or just not this PTR's patch testing).
Dungeons still are the fastest route to 'top teir' but Trion are trying to vary the route by supporting normally considered 'mini-games' PVP and crafting as part of the core game
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
Adding a LFG tool is a no brainer. Nothing bugs me more than wanting to run an instance when no one's around. And nothing is less fun to me than trying to organize a group, especially during off hours. I'm sure that there are hardcore purists that oppose any convenience tools but those people are almost definitely a minority (and minorities based on philosophies that try to enforce their lifestyles/views/hardships on others should be ignored).
I can see both sides of this issue, I personally don't like the LFG tool and think its just another option that erodes server communities that just isn't needed and I wish we could live without. I also see that it is useful for those that just want to jump into a dungeon and just start killing since they may be: 1) low on time or 2) just to lazy to start a group or have problems creating a group through the lfg channel. The reason I don't like it comes from its use in WoW, and how that game was changed from its implementation.
Back in BC when there was no LFG tool. The game was very server focused and very guild based and it seperated who was there for themselves and who was there for the good of the guild or group.If you had a bad reputation for just being a dick or a ninja, the server would know you, and people thought twice about inviting you to anything. Guilds were more dedicated, people were willing to go out of their way for each other. We earned each others friendship through doing dungeons for each other even when we didn't feel like doing it since many times finding a group through LFG was impossible because of the persons skill or gear. When people rolled alts within the guild, people would get together and power level you since putting together a group of guild members and just trashing dungeons was great fun, conversing and discussing game information or real life things building rapport within a guild. The mindset of the players was for each other and to help each other succeed, if they didn't know their class people taught you and wanted to help you learn. The metagame was still low key and not quite as developed so most people relied on each other for information and the server community to get things done.
Then came Wrath and later on the Dungeon tool which sealed the games fate and argueably the fates of future MMOs in general. The game was already starting to be dumb downed and changed to draw in more casual players and also just players that didn't have the skill or the intent to master a class. The dungeons were shorter, bosses easier and the gear much faster to obtain. The skill level of the players started to drop, expectations and patience started to suffer and erode. The playerbase started to become lazier and lazier, the skill level lower and lower until bam...the Dungeon Finder Tool was implemented to "help" players move along even faster and with lesser difficulty.
LF dungeon groups were the first to go, then the expectation of running dungeons with guilds started to fall since people would just tell you "just use the dungeon tool if you want to run a dungeon, you can get a group quicker that way". Loyalites started to bleed out since people didn't need anyone to get geared they could just use the LFG tool to get into groups. Communicating started to break down, people became like mercenaries always expecting a reward for everything, offering their "services" for money so that people can get fast queues. Economies started to get affected since the "lone wolf ","out for himself" mentality started to cause people to double, triple their prices on even the lowest goods since everyone wants theirs. Gearscore and Recount became a necessary evil since the player skill base has become all but dried up and depleted and people become only numbers to be calculated so that raid guilds can get "their" raid gear.
Server communties are like car engines, once one components starts to fail, it starts spreading into the other parts which get worn and weathered until they too start to go and the engine slowly starts to die. Its a big downward spiral that has slowly but surely changed WoW, and MMOs in general from worlds into slot machines.
The thing that I think makes the difference is the mindset that the Dungeon Tool instills in communites. Once you don't have to rely on guilds for grouping or for leveling you are taking away the chances of naturally building loyalites and comradery through grouping and making "on the spot" friendships since people are always going to take the path of least resistance. If its faster and easier to use the dungeon finder tool then why ever make a group again using the chat? why even bother joining a guild if I don't really even need them for anything other then to chat? it doesn't even end there the mentality it creates start to spread into other areas. As you level you dont need to make connections, you don't build rapport with anyone so by the time you hit endgame you don't know anyone and they don't know you...they look at you like an applicant rather then a friend, a number to be evaluated and not a person to know. All you have left by the time you hit end game is harder difficulty dungeons and raids, which require you play above average from the get go or risked being kicked and ridiculed by a already disconnected playerbase.
The one good thing about Rifts dungeon tool is the fact that it is not cross-server, that alone makes it better. I think the system will turn out better for Rift then it did for WoW, since WoWs playerbase was already at a low point by the time it was implemented. With Rift I think it may actually help people get together as a server because you can still build a reputation and the players you will work with throughout your journey will remember you and know who you are from experience in groups. Only thing it still perputates is the lack of real need for anyone else but it still gives you the chance that you can naturally build loyalites/comradery when grouping with people on the same server it helps even it out.
This is all my opinion and in no way do I think it is fact beyond a reasonable doubt. This is just my experience with the dungeon tool and how I feel it has affected the WOW community. I don't expect this to be true of everyones experiences.
HEAVEN OR HELL
Duel 1
Lets ROCK!
I love the LFG tool for WOW.
1. I put in LFG or a BG and start questing...then 10-30 minutes later I am in a group. A nice break from questing.
2. I can create a toon that is simply designed for dungeons or battleground pvp combat. Presently, I have a priest that I do not need to worry about making questing survivable. He only runs dungeons and bgs. I have a Warlock that has a dungeon build and a PVP build.
3. My first toon...I didn't even join a dungeon till I was level 62.
Disclaimer
I will clarify that I am a solo mmo player.
I rarely join guilds and I am very inconsistent with my game play.
I jump into games and out of games.
I have had stints as a hardcore gamer, but they never last that long.
I have a full-time job (55-60 hour work week.)
Currently Play: ?
Occasionally Play: Champions, Pirates of the Burning Sea, WOW, EVE ONLINE
didnt you know? sitting around spamming LFG is social somehow.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Actually its not that, its that unless its cross-server it is no different. However it does have a physiological effect at a social level, as it results in less global chat, which can make servers feel dead.
People aren't looking for a group and ignoring calls for members. Adding the feature as it is isn't going to make a blind bit of difference. The issue mostly exists due to lower population and/or guilds being more exclusive in their runs. Adding a localised "dungeon finder" isn't going to suddenly increase the number of people looking.
I'm not a fan of the feature but it "works" in WoW for two reasons. 1) Its cross server, so the pool for members is a lot higher for low population servers. 2) It ports you to the dungeon, then back to where you were upon completion. Therefore it doesn't disrupt other activities (i.e. having to run back to where one was). So people are willing to use it even if they aren't that bothered about actually doing a dungeon, as they know they can easly pick up from where they were.
Neither of those two scenarios are being implemented in Rift, so it adds no benefit over asking in global chat, other than one doesn't need to communicate. Just like most things they've copied, TRION don't seem to understand why they exist and what makes them successful.
Compared to sitting in a queue and talking to no one, it's very social. Of course, that's not the only social benefits that get lost with a queue, but it's the one you thought you could be sarcastic about and make it seem like it's nothing. Thing is, even in this one small aspect you're wrong.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Considering the LFG system pre-dates WoW and WoW is the only game to have cross-server support, are you implying LFG systems were a 'failure' until Blizzard came around?
The LFG system works as it displays more then what the players actally say plus you don't lose players in the sea of spam
Bring on the WARRRRGGHH!
I personally had hoped the "lfg tool" would be like the old style wow once used that let you put your name, class, and role on a list for people to look at and assemble a group then head to the dungeon.
Problem is, the "let me do all the work for you so you don't have to do anything but sit in town" aspect that blizzard put in the middle of lich king kinda made what would have been an awesome expansion to level in afterward... dead.
It's like drying up a lake, setting up an olympic sized pool, and putting up a sign saying "Swim here!" on the dried up lake. No one's gonna do it when you got the olympic sized pool.
if they set up the proper restrictions like requiring you to be in the area to queue, or at least putting a long cooldown so people can't use it to spam dungeons, rendering the world, and the point of rifts, moot it would work.
convenience is like drinking, both should be done in moderation, too much can screw your entire world up.
While waiting for that last member to show up you had a chance to chat with the rest of the group members and thus made acquaintancies within the game. Also, those people you found on LFG channel probably really wanted to run the dungeon, and they really wanted to finish it rather than rush for the last boss and leave the group after first wipe.
Running dungeons used to feel like the final phase of a quest you had being doing for an entire day, and finding a group for that was actually a part of the quest. Dungeon finder tool makes it more like a mini-game you can repeat as many times as you want.
The LFG systems you are referring to were (usually) very basic, and most of the time didn't work as an automated grouping function. People still mostly formed groups through communicating.
WoW's orginal LFG system was similar, and worked fine. Amongst other reasons, they eventually changed it to ease issues on lower population servers with wait times.
The argument that if you don't want to use the LFD tool, then you don't have to really cracks me up. Are people that say this really that blind as to what this does to server communities? Perhaps they don't care and just want their loots? I'm so confused.
For the record, i'm fine with the tool as long as it's not cross server.
Trion implemented their dungeon finder in a way that it can be used cross-server, too. They just start out with a local version. But when reading about empty servers you may guess what comes next.
I agree with almost everybody in this thread. Dungeon finders destroy communities, and they are a convenient tool for players who don't want to spend time to get rewarded with loot. While a lfg tool is a must have for a big MMORPG, a dungeon finder is a may not have - it degrades the game to a singleplayer diablo with crazy mercenaries.
Imho the root cause of all evil are instances. Maybe rift would have been really really great if they just had left out all instances, and instead had setup group content in the real world (actually they did with their group rifts, but no one is interested in them anymore - and they will be ignored completely once the dungeon finder _hits_ the servers).
Ah, and one word to the beancounters: of course the immersonists and hardcore gamers are a minority in rift - because they are not playing it, because rift is targeting another market. We will see (again) how good it works to clone wow. Not releasing sub-numbers tells more than numbers...
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
lol, not related to the discussion itself, but your statement about not spelling "you" correctly reminds me of a great quote I saw on a forum somewhere (may have been here):
"If you say "plz" because it's shorter than "please", I'll say "no" because it's shorter than "yes"".
Great stuff.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I will enjoy this. I leveled my first char, but the solo play is 100% ****ing horrible. Worst I've ever seen. I found some people to play with, pretty fast, but 1-20 was the most boring thing I've ever done in a game. If people can't find anyone to play with, it will ruin the game in the first hour, easily.
Good post. I also think your statement that instances are "the root cause of all evil" has some merit.
BUT the best times I have in MMOs are when I find a good, social group and we have a rolicking difficult time, lots of wipes, and then a final victory. Most often this is IN AN INSTANCE. Sometimes with a guild group, other times a PUG.
I think many would say something similar so leaving out instances isn't a real option for devs.
a) You enjoy grouping and beating challenging content. This is only related to instances because the developers nowadays hide the group content in instances.
b) Old, successfull games like uo, eq1, daoc, etc had no instances. Do you remember vanguard (2007)? There were no instances (until soe bought and ruined it - the game just failed because of missing funds, not because of missing instances). So leaving out instances is very well an option. Some people might argue that this will increase development cost. This is not the case, because you can create five copy-paste-areas for five groups in the same time like creating one instance that can be run by five groups.
The point in instances is that the groups cannot interfere with each other, and so the game becomes more streamlined - i.e. instances are a consequent way to continue putting players on rails, and removing the need for social skills. Removing social requirements from your game is attracting then the wow-players. At least the developers hope so, and deliver failure after failure. It is like having one-man-pubs, where everybody is spereated from the other guests. May be fun if it is the first pub you ever visited...
Like you said, it is entertaining to progress and beat challenging content with your friends. Rift completely lacks progression and challenge, and now removes the last barrier that requires people to talk to each other. At least they are consequent...
Currently playing: EverQuest
Waiting for Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen
LOL
bad bad analogy....
let me fix it up for you...
you are the carpenter right? and why use a carpenter now when you can simply use a prefab... saves money and time... in fact why even have the carpenter profession anymore when you can simply just drive your prefabbed part of the house to the front door for you... and you dont need to do anything.. heck you dont even need to leave the house to shop for it. we bring everything to your home etc.
how does that sound for you?
dungeon finder will cause people to NOT TRAVEL TO THE DUNGEON... i think its you who is confused on the matter. Why even have the dungeons in the world now? if you dont need to travel to them. Why even have the dungeon in the world at all... heck you only need the dungeon queue and you get ported to the server.
[Mod Edit]
The drop in rift has already been seen. WoW is still going strong.
Free to play means pay to win.
I'm generallly against this tool, more so if they were to implement it cross server which I feel really is detrimental to the community.
However, if they keep it single shard then it will be a good fit as this type of quest/dungeon heavy MMO really benefits from these systems more so than other design styles.
Let's face facts folks, the main design of Rift is not to create a virtual world or an exploration heavy experience. It's primary a gear grinder, and the main focus is for players to keep running dungeons /raids endlessly in search of better and better gear. This mechanic is perfect for making this process as effcient as possible, so might as well put it in.
Trouble comes when you try to make Rift into an MMO that its not, then the tool becomes very undesireable, but for the stated design its the right decision.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Rift is a game not a world, nothing wrong with a LFG tool in a game.
If you want to play a MMO that is a world you are playing the wrong game already.