Oh, and playing a 10k hitpoint warrior, who just stands there and swings his weapon over and over takes a lot of skill? What an ignorant comment.
Yes playing a Warrior or any other class takes way more skill. But in regards to Warrior for any MMO I ahve played PvP:
1) Warrior are always out in the open. This means if they get jumped, they cant vanish. They have to stand there and fight to the death.
2) Warriors lack RANGE. This means they can get kite 24/7 in most any MMO- Rappelz, WoW (pre-Burning was last time I played to 60), City of Heroes, etc. The list just goes on and on. They have to close the distance on their target which is hard when you dont have Stealth like a rogue. So, in most MMO, this is how Mage vs Warrior plays out:
- Mage sees Warrior
- MAge snares Warrior
- Mage nickels and dime to zero w/o the Mage even getting in a hit
This is how rogues vs mage plays out in most MMOs I've played with my rogues/stalkers:
- Rogue sees Mage. Mage does not see Rogue
- Rogue backstabs/assassin-strike Mage for over half his health. Rogue stuns mage.
- If mage is still alive and tries to get range and cast. Rogue kicks the crap outta the mage and makes the spell cancel
- If Rogue gets in trouble Vanish. But 95% of the time he wont, he'll just polish off the squishy
Rogues are #1 for PvP encounters in any game. How can they be so hard to play when- according to any PvP statistic they win their encounters by a long shot. In City of Heroes the Devs ran some analysis and they found rogues (stalkers) led the kill count by a huge, sick margin. They had no choice but to nerf vanish to where it only placates the target.
The moment u bring up the Navy Seal crap u are already an idiot. An idiot cant tell other ppl they are idiot so get over it.
if you have anything to add this discussion, besides calling people names feel free.
so u started calling ppl idiot and moron first and now u act like all mighty and cool? Why dont u tell ppl what stealthers u played and how much skills u got so we can all get over this topic?
Oh, and playing a 10k hitpoint warrior, who just stands there and swings his weapon over and over takes a lot of skill? What an ignorant comment.
Yes playing a Warrior or any other class takes way more skill. But in regards to Warrior for any MMO I ahve played PvP:
1) Warrior are always out in the open. This means if they get jumped, they cant vanish. They have to stand there and fight to the death.
2) Warriors lack RANGE. This means they can get kite 24/7 in most any MMO- Rappelz, WoW (pre-Burning was last time I played to 60), City of Heroes, etc. The list just goes on and on. They have to close the distance on their target which is hard when you dont have Stealth like a rogue. So, in most MMO, this is how Mage vs Warrior plays out:
- Mage sees Warrior
- MAge snares Warrior
- Mage nickels and dime to zero w/o the Mage even getting in a hit
This is how rogues vs mage plays out in most MMOs I've played with my rogues/stalkers:
- Rogue sees Mage. Mage does not see Rogue
- Rogue backstabs/assassin-strike Mage for over half his health. Rogue stuns mage.
- If mage is still alive and tries to get range and cast. Rogue kicks the crap outta the mage and makes the spell cancel
- If Rogue gets in trouble Vanish. But 95% of the time he wont, he'll just polish off the squishy
Rogues are #1 for PvP encounters in any game. How can they be so hard to play when- according to any PvP statistic they win their encounters by a long shot. In City of Heroes the Devs ran some analysis and they found rogues (stalkers) led the kill count by a huge, sick margin. They had no choice but to nerf vanish to where it only placates the target.
You obvoiusly haven't played Shadowbane. Rogues aren't overpowered at all in that game. Rogues are only as powerful as you make them. you are talking about balancing issues, which has nothing directly to do with stealth
Oh, and playing a 10k hitpoint warrior, who just stands there and swings his weapon over and over takes a lot of skill? What an ignorant comment.
Yes playing a Warrior or any other class takes way more skill. But in regards to Warrior for any MMO I ahve played PvP:
1) Warrior are always out in the open. This means if they get jumped, they cant vanish. They have to stand there and fight to the death.
2) Warriors lack RANGE. This means they can get kite 24/7 in most any MMO- Rappelz, WoW (pre-Burning was last time I played to 60), City of Heroes, etc. The list just goes on and on. They have to close the distance on their target which is hard when you dont have Stealth like a rogue. So, in most MMO, this is how Mage vs Warrior plays out:
- Mage sees Warrior
- MAge snares Warrior
- Mage nickels and dime to zero w/o the Mage even getting in a hit
This is how rogues vs mage plays out in most MMOs I've played with my rogues/stalkers:
- Rogue sees Mage. Mage does not see Rogue
- Rogue backstabs/assassin-strike Mage for over half his health. Rogue stuns mage.
- If mage is still alive and tries to get range and cast. Rogue kicks the crap outta the mage and makes the spell cancel
- If Rogue gets in trouble Vanish. But 95% of the time he wont, he'll just polish off the squishy
Rogues are #1 for PvP encounters in any game. How can they be so hard to play when- according to any PvP statistic they win their encounters by a long shot. In City of Heroes the Devs ran some analysis and they found rogues (stalkers) led the kill count by a huge, sick margin. They had no choice but to nerf vanish to where it only placates the target.
You obvoiusly haven't played Shadowbane. Rogues aren't overpowered at all in that game. Rogues are only as powerful as you make them. you are talking about balancing issues, which has nothing directly to do with stealth
Simple as this if PvP exists in a game and stealth exists in the same game..... That specific class or classes are going to be overpowered because they get to PICK when to Fight, period.
A large percentage of people love stealth, and they aren't going to have it? seems like they are simplifying the game for the kiddies. MMORPGS are getting simpler and more mindless everyday. It seems this game will be no exception too bad.
Well, you know... if you still want to Stealth you can always play Eve Online. Who cares if your necro-cannible-burglar hobbit can go invisible when you can make an entire battleship cloak?!
Also, the game has rediculous depth... but sadly no pointy ears.
What lost EVE to me was the horrible skill system... Don't get me wrong, I love skill systems and I think its the future of MMO's in the long run.. Eve's skill system is based around time instead of around use.. This makes it very much to linear to me.
I generally dont pick stealth classes in any MMO I play, not my play style, and Ive been on the receiving end of many many stealth ass beatings...... But I think that it ads a very strategic exciting element to any MMO. The tough part about stealther's is balancing them which im sure is not an easy task. There are pros and cons to anything, once you learn to play in an environment where stealth classes exist and understand how they work it is not a big deal.
The DAOC stealth system , where one can be 1 foot in front of you in broad daylight and totally invisible, is a little over the top but I definitely think some form of it should be included in MMO's.
The problem with people in general is that everyone wants everything to be fair all the time, no class should ever have the upper hand in any situation which is silly.
I generally dont pick stealth classes in any MMO I play, not my play style, and Ive been on the receiving end of many many stealth ass beatings...... But I think that it ads a very strategic exciting element to any MMO. The tough part about stealther's is balancing them which im sure is not an easy task. There are pros and cons to anything, once you learn to play in an environment where stealth classes exist and understand how they work it is not a big deal.
The DAOC stealth system , where one can be 1 foot in front of you in broad daylight and totally invisible, is a little over the top but I definitely think some form of it should be included in MMO's.
The problem with people in general is that everyone wants everything to be fair all the time, no class should ever have the upper hand in any situation which is silly.
See the problem is tho when one class ALWAYS has an upper hand which is true with the implementation of moving invisibly in broad daylight in front of a hundred people in a barren low cut grass field and then jumping out killing a guy that was fighting and at 10% health and then restealthing while the entire batallion is looking dead at you with a vanish like ability... It's broken. plain and simple... now if you want to make stealth realistic where you have to be hidden by terrain and then use that as an advantage or a launching point where you sneak and have to stay completely out of my Field of View to get off your upper hand - then I'll agree to that.
Eve's skill system is a blessing and a curse. If I were a developer, however, I'd follow it's model; aside from the fact that I like it, it encourages and rewards customer loyalty--that is, it ensurers that people pay every month and continue to pay. Can't fault that.
As for stealth, as fun as it has been in previous games, I'm glad it's history. I look forward to a time when people who want to play assassins actually *gasp* learn to be sneaky. The trends in development across the board tend to favor player control, and I'm all for that. No one likes being able to be hit and not be able to hit back, and similarly, no one likes being hit by something he/she can't see.
I generally dont pick stealth classes in any MMO I play, not my play style, and Ive been on the receiving end of many many stealth ass beatings...... But I think that it ads a very strategic exciting element to any MMO. The tough part about stealther's is balancing them which im sure is not an easy task. There are pros and cons to anything, once you learn to play in an environment where stealth classes exist and understand how they work it is not a big deal.
The DAOC stealth system , where one can be 1 foot in front of you in broad daylight and totally invisible, is a little over the top but I definitely think some form of it should be included in MMO's.
The problem with people in general is that everyone wants everything to be fair all the time, no class should ever have the upper hand in any situation which is silly.
See the problem is tho when one class ALWAYS has an upper hand which is true with the implementation of moving invisibly in broad daylight in front of a hundred people in a barren low cut grass field and then jumping out killing a guy that was fighting and at 10% health and then restealthing while the entire batallion is looking dead at you with a vanish like ability... It's broken. plain and simple... now if you want to make stealth realistic where you have to be hidden by terrain and then use that as an advantage or a launching point where you sneak and have to stay completely out of my Field of View to get off your upper hand - then I'll agree to that.
Totally agree that the broad daylight Mr. Invisible stuff is ridiculous as well as the instant invis/flash powder nonsense.
Maybe have a range on the stealth in terms of how close they are or what direction they are approaching the enemy player from (field of vision sort of thing). Have the range determined by the time of day? Im sure anyone sitting down for a short time could come up with a bunch of idea's to find some sort of middle ground, but taking it out all together is an easy way out and takes out a cool element.
These are the mechanics and idea's that I think are important to gamers which devs take shortcuts on.
See the problem is tho when one class ALWAYS has an upper hand which is true with the implementation of moving invisibly in broad daylight in front of a hundred people in a barren low cut grass field and then jumping out killing a guy that was fighting and at 10% health and then restealthing while the entire batallion is looking dead at you with a vanish like ability... It's broken. plain and simple... now if you want to make stealth realistic where you have to be hidden by terrain and then use that as an advantage or a launching point where you sneak and have to stay completely out of my Field of View to get off your upper hand - then I'll agree to that.
So you don't like that they can vanish instanty. Ok lets say it takes 30 seconds to stealth. Then you wouldn't mind it? cool I'm glad I won you over. In shadowbane scouts can reveal other stealthers. So if you have a scout you never have to worry about them sneaking up on your group.
Oh, and playing a 10k hitpoint warrior, who just stands there and swings his weapon over and over takes a lot of skill? What an ignorant comment.
Yes playing a Warrior or any other class takes way more skill. But in regards to Warrior for any MMO I ahve played PvP:
1) Warrior are always out in the open. This means if they get jumped, they cant vanish. They have to stand there and fight to the death.
2) Warriors lack RANGE. This means they can get kite 24/7 in most any MMO- Rappelz, WoW (pre-Burning was last time I played to 60), City of Heroes, etc. The list just goes on and on. They have to close the distance on their target which is hard when you dont have Stealth like a rogue. So, in most MMO, this is how Mage vs Warrior plays out:
- Mage sees Warrior
- MAge snares Warrior
- Mage nickels and dime to zero w/o the Mage even getting in a hit
This is how rogues vs mage plays out in most MMOs I've played with my rogues/stalkers:
- Rogue sees Mage. Mage does not see Rogue
- Rogue backstabs/assassin-strike Mage for over half his health. Rogue stuns mage.
- If mage is still alive and tries to get range and cast. Rogue kicks the crap outta the mage and makes the spell cancel
- If Rogue gets in trouble Vanish. But 95% of the time he wont, he'll just polish off the squishy
Rogues are #1 for PvP encounters in any game. How can they be so hard to play when- according to any PvP statistic they win their encounters by a long shot. In City of Heroes the Devs ran some analysis and they found rogues (stalkers) led the kill count by a huge, sick margin. They had no choice but to nerf vanish to where it only placates the target.
You obvoiusly haven't played Shadowbane. Rogues aren't overpowered at all in that game. Rogues are only as powerful as you make them. you are talking about balancing issues, which has nothing directly to do with stealth
No, I anwsered your question why playing a Warrior takes more skill. You were obviously talking about WoW (10k hitpoint Warrior is your exact words). Now you trying to say you was talking bout Shadowbane lmao. Anyway thats what this whole thread is about- rogues causing balance issues. I already posted the Mythic post you have yet to discuss that. If you want to convince them rogues dont cause issues then convince us they dont (and Mythic). But you wont because they know what real pvp is bout
Like Mythic has already said, rogues presented balancing issues to DAoC no matter what they did (so we already know you not getting Stealth anyway cause they know better). So im still laughing at this thread whereas people that dont know how to play without stealth are begging for it. I played stealth classes yet I always turned it off thus you dont hear me crying for it. Real PvPers have skill. Stealth does not take skill. Jumping someone that doesnt know you're not there is not a hard thing to do. And relying on Stealth as your little fail safe to get away is just weak too me.
Stealth is seriously not needed for good, quality PvP. Its not fun for other people to look for a Stealth toon or require a "scout" to be around to effectively counter them (aka shadowbane).
Honestly explain to me your "strategy"? You turn on stealth and hunt down noobs that cant see you. How is that skill? And when you get in trouble you vanish. Tell me why that takes talent and why cant my wife click her stealth button to get her out of a fair 1v1. It was so easy for me to get kills with my rogues it just got way too boring.
See the problem is tho when one class ALWAYS has an upper hand which is true with the implementation of moving invisibly in broad daylight in front of a hundred people in a barren low cut grass field and then jumping out killing a guy that was fighting and at 10% health and then restealthing while the entire batallion is looking dead at you with a vanish like ability... It's broken. plain and simple... now if you want to make stealth realistic where you have to be hidden by terrain and then use that as an advantage or a launching point where you sneak and have to stay completely out of my Field of View to get off your upper hand - then I'll agree to that.
So you don't like that they can vanish instanty. Ok lets say it takes 30 seconds to stealth. Then you wouldn't mind it? cool I'm glad I won you over. In shadowbane scouts can reveal other stealthers. So if you have a scout you never have to worry about them sneaking up on your group.
so your idea of good pvp is sticking close to a scout. so what if the scout gets killed? Additionally, thats extreme specialization which is what WAR is trying to get away from. Making it so groups cannot pvp effectively without a certain class is really lame. You realize there are no healing specialized classes here right? They want for all classes to be viable and be in COMBAT. Not hugging close to a scout. Thats not fun pvp nor the type of warfare they are going for, period. you realize we have no control over which Classes show up on the battlefield. You dont want one faction that just happens to have a plethora of rogues steamrolling the other. The war zones are designed for players to casually walk into a zone and start pvping. Not sit around and wait on a certain type to join the fight. We're talking about large RvR. sure, the min/max guilds will coordinate and fill their holes but the casual pvpers will absolutely be screwed and alienated
Trust me City of Heroes is just like Shadowbane. Heroes all huddle close to an Empath (aka scout) to detect rogues. Its retarded and ruins casual pvp for many. Groups wont even enter the zone w/o Empaths. In shadowbane you had groups not even wanting to venture out for fear of getting their packs looted w/o a scout. This is what Mythic is talking bout- its a never ending battle adding more and more counters to stealth because its a sick advantage to grant a player
<edit> sorry I was thinking of Hurricane Defenders in this case. Heroes used to huddle inside of a hurricane to avoid assassins. It was a stupid thing to watch. Their other counter was getting buffed from Empaths to see assassins
Don't think they will be adding it. It is too easy mode if it is like wow's type of stealth. But I can understand how some people would like to play a game feature which doesn't require much brainspace to use.
Oh, and playing a 10k hitpoint warrior, who just stands there and swings his weapon over and over takes a lot of skill?
What an ignorant comment.
Never played a 10k hit point warrior in wow. But if you say you made an ignorant comment that is fine. But stealth ala wow is easy mode.
No, I anwsered your question why playing a Warrior takes more skill. You were obviously talking about WoW (10k hitpoint Warrior is your exact words). Now you trying to say you was talking bout Shadowbane lmao. . Honestly explain to me your "strategy"? You turn on stealth and hunt down noobs that cant see you. How is that skill? And when you get in trouble you vanish. Tell me why that takes talent and why cant my wife click her stealth button to get her out of a fair 1v1. It was so easy for me to get kills with my rogues it just got way too boring.
Warriors in Shadowbane can have 10k hit points. You don't seem to know what you are talking about
And stop with the "Vanish" talk already. I already said make it take 30 seconds to stealth. You seem to be obsessed with WOW's lame PVP . Go play a real PVP game like Shadowbane before you comment anymore.
I've played many MMOs and many successful real pvp games like Battlefield built exclusively for PvP. no, jsut because you have experience from Shadowbane doesnt carry much weight especially considering all your ideas are ripped straight from shadowbane or done elsewhere. Nothing original, nothing imaginative in your posts
Originally posted by ghoul31 And stop with the "Vanish" talk already. I already said make it take 30 seconds to stealth. You seem to be obsessed with WOW's lame PVP . Go play a real PVP game like Shadowbane before you comment anymore.
News flash: In many other games you can already delay a rogue from restealthing this is nothing new lol. You are suggesting nothing new here we havent already seen done poorly. What do you think a delay will do? All a rogue has to do is run away until the delay kicks in that doesnt help.
this is going the way I'd expect from someone that has no original ideas all you're doing is ripping off old games thats done these features 100x already. WAR is attempting to bring something fresh and new- not rehashing crap we've seen in a ton of MMOs already.
Well I can see I'm not going to get anywhere posting here. You cant reason with some people. Luckily I dont have to in this case, the Devs already said you're not getting it so you can either move on or learn how to play real classes that do not depend on gimmicks to win a fair fight lol
I've played plenty of stealth classes and won my fights fair and square without Stealth against Classes known to one/two shot an unhidden rogue. IF I can do it and make a film to prove it then it just cant be hard to pvp without it. I've played rogues extensively and I know players with skill dont need Stealth. Its a nightmare for Developers to balance and statistics already support my conclusions. If you want I can link to my films who knows maybe you'll even learn how to PvP without having an unfair advantage against other players. You can PM me for the link if you want so you can see for yourself. Honestly all your ideas are just ripping many other games.
Relying on Classes to detect stealth and all that other stuff we've all seen done a buncha times already it sucks and it sucks especially for RvR whereas we're not jsut limited to jsut organized guild vs guild here. RvR is a lot more casual friendly you cant rely on special types being available to teams thats just no good for RvR. RvR is a totally different ballgame from Guild vs Guild. I've done plenty of both
sorry for bumping this post and arguing about something we already know not getting added lol
Relying on Classes to detect stealth and all that other stuff we've all seen done a buncha times already it sucks and it sucks especially for RvR whereas we're not jsut limited to jsut organized guild vs guild here. RvR is a lot more casual friendly you cant rely on special types being available to teams thats just no good for RvR. RvR is a totally different ballgame from Guild vs Guild. I've done plenty of both
thats absurd. Every group is going to have a healer class. Thats a special class you have to bring. So whats wrong with bringing a reavealing class also. You make no sense.
Relying on Classes to detect stealth and all that other stuff we've all seen done a buncha times already it sucks and it sucks especially for RvR whereas we're not jsut limited to jsut organized guild vs guild here. RvR is a lot more casual friendly you cant rely on special types being available to teams thats just no good for RvR. RvR is a totally different ballgame from Guild vs Guild. I've done plenty of both
thats absurd. Every group is going to have a healer class. Thats a special class you have to bring. So whats wrong with bringing a reavealing class also. You make no sense.
Repetition is fun, isn't it? If I understand correctly, WAR is trying to do away with healer-dependency as well. Sure, you want a healer--but not having a healer doesn't make you a sitting duck in WAR (ideally--haven't played it, so I'm speculating like everybody else). This isn't so simple as countering a given class's characteristics. It's an issue of unfair advantage.
Let me take your hypothetical and turn it on its head, and let's see if we can get a consensus here. Would you consent to stealth being in the game, but before a stealthed character can attack, he must cancel stealth and wait the 30 seconds you suggested? This is similar to Eve's cloaking mechanic, which I think is generally accepted as fairer than such systems as WOW's.
If you don't like that idea, why not? Personally I don't like it because it makes the stealthed character vulnerable for 30 seconds, and prevents him from sneaking up on someone and ganking him... hmm. Bad for the assassin, good for the other guy.
Isn't that really the argument here? No one's pulling for invisibility--personally, I think invisibility's a great idea, because I like being able to travel safely. What people want is gank-stealth. Stealth for the purpose of griefing people. Trouble is no one is willing to come out and say so, and unfortunately it's causing everybody else here to take you people less seriously.
It's the same underlying philosophy that surrounds the CC debate. People want CC because it turns large groups into mewling kittens that can be picked off one at a time.
I think the one thing Mythic is trying to do here, laudably so, is to make the game support such a thing as an honorable defeat. Who can remember the last time he was involved in PVP when he got involved in a fight that he lost, but thought was fair? It's a rare thing, and WOW has done little, I'm afraid, to cultivate a civil PVP environment. When I died to rogues in PVP I died cursing the game mechanics, and when I killed rogues in PVP I'm sure they cursed it as well (Flame Shock + EB Totem + Poison Cleansing Totem + 1.5 sec Chain Lightning). The fact is, people in competition always want the upper hand. That's human nature. It falls then to the developers to balance things in such a way as to be the least frustrating to the least fortunate. It's Rawls writ large. Winning is reward in itself. You don't have to be cheap to feel good about it (unless your only purpose in playing is to grief people, in which case you shouldn't be allowed to play), but losing is bad enough on its own; it doesn't need to be aggravated by the winner. Taking communication between opposing races away is an example of this effort, and I think taking stealth and large-scale CC away is just the next logical step.
And hey, if you don't like it, you can always just QQ more noob.
Relying on Classes to detect stealth and all that other stuff we've all seen done a buncha times already it sucks and it sucks especially for RvR whereas we're not jsut limited to jsut organized guild vs guild here. RvR is a lot more casual friendly you cant rely on special types being available to teams thats just no good for RvR. RvR is a totally different ballgame from Guild vs Guild. I've done plenty of both
thats absurd. Every group is going to have a healer class. Thats a special class you have to bring. So whats wrong with bringing a reavealing class also. You make no sense.
Repetition is fun, isn't it? If I understand correctly, WAR is trying to do away with healer-dependency as well. Sure, you want a healer--but not having a healer doesn't make you a sitting duck in WAR (ideally--haven't played it, so I'm speculating like everybody else). This isn't so simple as countering a given class's characteristics. It's an issue of unfair advantage.
Let me take your hypothetical and turn it on its head, and let's see if we can get a consensus here. Would you consent to stealth being in the game, but before a stealthed character can attack, he must cancel stealth and wait the 30 seconds you suggested? This is similar to Eve's cloaking mechanic, which I think is generally accepted as fairer than such systems as WOW's.
If you don't like that idea, why not? Personally I don't like it because it makes the stealthed character vulnerable for 30 seconds, and prevents him from sneaking up on someone and ganking him... hmm. Bad for the assassin, good for the other guy.
Isn't that really the argument here? No one's pulling for invisibility--personally, I think invisibility's a great idea, because I like being able to travel safely. What people want is gank-stealth. Stealth for the purpose of griefing people. Trouble is no one is willing to come out and say so, and unfortunately it's causing everybody else here to take you people less seriously.
It's the same underlying philosophy that surrounds the CC debate. People want CC because it turns large groups into mewling kittens that can be picked off one at a time.
I think the one thing Mythic is trying to do here, laudably so, is to make the game support such a thing as an honorable defeat. Who can remember the last time he was involved in PVP when he got involved in a fight that he lost, but thought was fair? It's a rare thing, and WOW has done little, I'm afraid, to cultivate a civil PVP environment. When I died to rogues in PVP I died cursing the game mechanics, and when I killed rogues in PVP I'm sure they cursed it as well (Flame Shock + EB Totem + Poison Cleansing Totem + 1.5 sec Chain Lightning). The fact is, people in competition always want the upper hand. That's human nature. It falls then to the developers to balance things in such a way as to be the least frustrating to the least fortunate. It's Rawls writ large. Winning is reward in itself. You don't have to be cheap to feel good about it (unless your only purpose in playing is to grief people, in which case you shouldn't be allowed to play), but losing is bad enough on its own; it doesn't need to be aggravated by the winner. Taking communication between opposing races away is an example of this effort, and I think taking stealth and large-scale CC away is just the next logical step.
And hey, if you don't like it, you can always just QQ more noob.
Can I heavily applaud you? I mean...right on man ... Right on!
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
Relying on Classes to detect stealth and all that other stuff we've all seen done a buncha times already it sucks and it sucks especially for RvR whereas we're not jsut limited to jsut organized guild vs guild here. RvR is a lot more casual friendly you cant rely on special types being available to teams thats just no good for RvR. RvR is a totally different ballgame from Guild vs Guild. I've done plenty of both
thats absurd. Every group is going to have a healer class. Thats a special class you have to bring. So whats wrong with bringing a reavealing class also. You make no sense.
There are no specialized healers in this game. Watch the WAR developer interviews lmao. <edit> This way, casual groups won't get steamrolled without having a specific class type. Why do I keep repeating myself read my posts I've said this a bunch of times. If you dont wanna read my posts then at least go watch the developer interviews with Paul he explains everything in great detail. That will help you understand RvR
Let me take your hypothetical and turn it on its head, and let's see if we can get a consensus here. Would you consent to stealth being in the game, but before a stealthed character can attack, he must cancel stealth and wait the 30 seconds you suggested? This is similar to Eve's cloaking mechanic, which I think is generally accepted as fairer than such systems as WOW's.
.
We already talked about this in this thread and I already agreed that it would be a good soultion. .
But people like Vajunas won't listen to reason. He seems to think instastealth is the only kind of stealth that can exist. he just doesn't get it.
Let me take your hypothetical and turn it on its head, and let's see if we can get a consensus here. Would you consent to stealth being in the game, but before a stealthed character can attack, he must cancel stealth and wait the 30 seconds you suggested? This is similar to Eve's cloaking mechanic, which I think is generally accepted as fairer than such systems as WOW's.
.
We already talked about this in this thread and I already agreed that it would be a good soultion. .
But people like Vajunas won't listen to reason. He seems to think instastealth is the only kind of stealth that can exist. he just doesn't get it.
Actually I was hoping for something a little more substantial than the few lines with which you responded to the other pseudo-cloaking suggestion. If you have a post actually detailing your view, by all means feel free to link me there, since I'm having a hard time figuring out what exactly it is you want to see, since so far from your posts the best I can gather is "no stealth=easy game for kiddies." The impression I get is that you were just being agreeable then, as now, to avoid dealing with the deliberately confrontational problems with the hypothetical.
Now if I understand your agreement, you're saying you'd be fine with stealth with nearly any kind of restriction, as long as it was available. Judging from your other posts, this springs from a concept of soloing, which could presumably apply to PVP given proper use of terrain and fixtures. Wouldn't that be achievable without stealth? What if we put it in potions as some have suggested, with the given restrictions--or give it to casters in the form of a self-only invisibility spell? What if we had a skill that caused aggressive mobs to lose their aggression? Would you approve of it being useable only in PVE (i.e., if you move into the view-area of an opposing character, stealth breaks immediately and the innactivity timer begins to toll)?
Point is, surely there comes a point at which you would agree with the people at Mythic that the counter-measures in place to prevent the abuse of stealth frustrate its purpose. That's not a fatal concession to your argument; in fact I think it's an inevitable result, in light of the fact that people with enough experience on the receiving end of stealth and its counterparts can and will continue to come up with very good reasons to limit or otherwise modify the functionality of an originally very basic concept.
I could come up with a limitless number of hypotheticals, and ask rhetorical questions all day every day for weeks, but what I really want to know is why you are so adamant about keeping stealth. "Easy game for kiddies" is a cop out. We're all adults here, and even those of us who aren't can probably fool the rest at least some of the time. Let's talk about mechanics. Isn't it possible that someone could come up with a good game with genuinely interesting combat concepts, and a variety of them, without stealth? Couldn't the solo hunter image and functionality be preserved in other ways? Most importantly, though, if you insist that neither of these can be achieved, why not?
We already talked about this in this thread and I already agreed that it would be a good soultion. . But people like Vajunas won't listen to reason. He seems to think instastealth is the only kind of stealth that can exist. he just doesn't get it.
I've already commented on that and said its been done and it hasn't worked (read my posts if you're going to reply to me lol). You guys post your ideas like its 'your' ideas but infact you're jsut ripping off many other games. I suggest you play a lot more MMOs. I know my rogue in City of Villains he doesnt have instant stealth I have to wait for hide. If I'm caught in a bad predicament, I just run away til stealth comes backup. Then restealth and recontinue the killing spree. Stealth is a ganker's dream seriously and its easy as pie to use in these MMOs. same with rogues in other games I've seen it all. I've seen mage types place DoT on assassins and the assassin just runs away for a few seconds and then comes back to polish them off. Your ideas are nothing, nothing new. Been there, used it, and I say that takes no skill.
You are right you're not going to convince any experienced vet we wont have fun without worrying about Stealth units. Its always this way- stealthers (gankers/wolves) trying to convince the sheep they are gonna have more fun having to search every bush for a rogue lol
Now in BF2142 my stealth unit takes skill to play. he is merely cloaked but anyone can see him and shoot him. FPS games have a thing called "Aim" you see. So no special class type is needed to see me. Plus I dont get any bonuses for my damage for being cloaked. I'm a true Stealth unit in that game.
So yeah for other games a recon is fine. But really WAR can easily just add some sort of spell that conjures an eyeball or hawk and allows a mage to recon that way if they so desire (anyway they see fit to make that work with their warhammer license is fine). Same with military games they can just let players use a satellite. But really this isn't an RTS- many us will have a lot of fun just going at it. But if they wanted to add that depth, they could always do that. No stealth classes needed.
Comments
Mythic management hates archers and assasins...alway has ........always will.......until they are replaced.
Expect more of the same in WAR.
Yes playing a Warrior or any other class takes way more skill. But in regards to Warrior for any MMO I ahve played PvP:
1) Warrior are always out in the open. This means if they get jumped, they cant vanish. They have to stand there and fight to the death.
2) Warriors lack RANGE. This means they can get kite 24/7 in most any MMO- Rappelz, WoW (pre-Burning was last time I played to 60), City of Heroes, etc. The list just goes on and on. They have to close the distance on their target which is hard when you dont have Stealth like a rogue. So, in most MMO, this is how Mage vs Warrior plays out:
- Mage sees Warrior
- MAge snares Warrior
- Mage nickels and dime to zero w/o the Mage even getting in a hit
This is how rogues vs mage plays out in most MMOs I've played with my rogues/stalkers:
- Rogue sees Mage. Mage does not see Rogue
- Rogue backstabs/assassin-strike Mage for over half his health. Rogue stuns mage.
- If mage is still alive and tries to get range and cast. Rogue kicks the crap outta the mage and makes the spell cancel
- If Rogue gets in trouble Vanish. But 95% of the time he wont, he'll just polish off the squishy
Rogues are #1 for PvP encounters in any game. How can they be so hard to play when- according to any PvP statistic they win their encounters by a long shot. In City of Heroes the Devs ran some analysis and they found rogues (stalkers) led the kill count by a huge, sick margin. They had no choice but to nerf vanish to where it only placates the target.
if you have anything to add this discussion, besides calling people names feel free.
so u started calling ppl idiot and moron first and now u act like all mighty and cool? Why dont u tell ppl what stealthers u played and how much skills u got so we can all get over this topic?
Yes playing a Warrior or any other class takes way more skill. But in regards to Warrior for any MMO I ahve played PvP:
1) Warrior are always out in the open. This means if they get jumped, they cant vanish. They have to stand there and fight to the death.
2) Warriors lack RANGE. This means they can get kite 24/7 in most any MMO- Rappelz, WoW (pre-Burning was last time I played to 60), City of Heroes, etc. The list just goes on and on. They have to close the distance on their target which is hard when you dont have Stealth like a rogue. So, in most MMO, this is how Mage vs Warrior plays out:
- Mage sees Warrior
- MAge snares Warrior
- Mage nickels and dime to zero w/o the Mage even getting in a hit
This is how rogues vs mage plays out in most MMOs I've played with my rogues/stalkers:
- Rogue sees Mage. Mage does not see Rogue
- Rogue backstabs/assassin-strike Mage for over half his health. Rogue stuns mage.
- If mage is still alive and tries to get range and cast. Rogue kicks the crap outta the mage and makes the spell cancel
- If Rogue gets in trouble Vanish. But 95% of the time he wont, he'll just polish off the squishy
Rogues are #1 for PvP encounters in any game. How can they be so hard to play when- according to any PvP statistic they win their encounters by a long shot. In City of Heroes the Devs ran some analysis and they found rogues (stalkers) led the kill count by a huge, sick margin. They had no choice but to nerf vanish to where it only placates the target.
You obvoiusly haven't played Shadowbane. Rogues aren't overpowered at all in that game. Rogues are only as powerful as you make them. you are talking about balancing issues, which has nothing directly to do with stealth
Yes playing a Warrior or any other class takes way more skill. But in regards to Warrior for any MMO I ahve played PvP:
1) Warrior are always out in the open. This means if they get jumped, they cant vanish. They have to stand there and fight to the death.
2) Warriors lack RANGE. This means they can get kite 24/7 in most any MMO- Rappelz, WoW (pre-Burning was last time I played to 60), City of Heroes, etc. The list just goes on and on. They have to close the distance on their target which is hard when you dont have Stealth like a rogue. So, in most MMO, this is how Mage vs Warrior plays out:
- Mage sees Warrior
- MAge snares Warrior
- Mage nickels and dime to zero w/o the Mage even getting in a hit
This is how rogues vs mage plays out in most MMOs I've played with my rogues/stalkers:
- Rogue sees Mage. Mage does not see Rogue
- Rogue backstabs/assassin-strike Mage for over half his health. Rogue stuns mage.
- If mage is still alive and tries to get range and cast. Rogue kicks the crap outta the mage and makes the spell cancel
- If Rogue gets in trouble Vanish. But 95% of the time he wont, he'll just polish off the squishy
Rogues are #1 for PvP encounters in any game. How can they be so hard to play when- according to any PvP statistic they win their encounters by a long shot. In City of Heroes the Devs ran some analysis and they found rogues (stalkers) led the kill count by a huge, sick margin. They had no choice but to nerf vanish to where it only placates the target.
You obvoiusly haven't played Shadowbane. Rogues aren't overpowered at all in that game. Rogues are only as powerful as you make them. you are talking about balancing issues, which has nothing directly to do with stealth
Simple as this if PvP exists in a game and stealth exists in the same game..... That specific class or classes are going to be overpowered because they get to PICK when to Fight, period.
Well, you know... if you still want to Stealth you can always play Eve Online.
Who cares if your necro-cannible-burglar hobbit can go invisible when you can make an entire battleship cloak?!
Also, the game has rediculous depth... but sadly no pointy ears.
The DAOC stealth system , where one can be 1 foot in front of you in broad daylight and totally invisible, is a little over the top but I definitely think some form of it should be included in MMO's.
The problem with people in general is that everyone wants everything to be fair all the time, no class should ever have the upper hand in any situation which is silly.
___________________________________
Inquisition
website.http://inqguild.net/
forum.http://inq.cbhx.com/index.php
Current Game FFXIV (Cactuar)
Looking for 1 healer for 8 mans.
As for stealth, as fun as it has been in previous games, I'm glad it's history. I look forward to a time when people who want to play assassins actually *gasp* learn to be sneaky. The trends in development across the board tend to favor player control, and I'm all for that. No one likes being able to be hit and not be able to hit back, and similarly, no one likes being hit by something he/she can't see.
Peace and safety.
Totally agree that the broad daylight Mr. Invisible stuff is ridiculous as well as the instant invis/flash powder nonsense.
Maybe have a range on the stealth in terms of how close they are or what direction they are approaching the enemy player from (field of vision sort of thing). Have the range determined by the time of day? Im sure anyone sitting down for a short time could come up with a bunch of idea's to find some sort of middle ground, but taking it out all together is an easy way out and takes out a cool element.
These are the mechanics and idea's that I think are important to gamers which devs take shortcuts on.
___________________________________
Inquisition
website.http://inqguild.net/
forum.http://inq.cbhx.com/index.php
Current Game FFXIV (Cactuar)
Looking for 1 healer for 8 mans.
So you don't like that they can vanish instanty. Ok lets say it takes 30 seconds to stealth. Then you wouldn't mind it? cool I'm glad I won you over. In shadowbane scouts can reveal other stealthers. So if you have a scout you never have to worry about them sneaking up on your group.
Yes playing a Warrior or any other class takes way more skill. But in regards to Warrior for any MMO I ahve played PvP:
1) Warrior are always out in the open. This means if they get jumped, they cant vanish. They have to stand there and fight to the death.
2) Warriors lack RANGE. This means they can get kite 24/7 in most any MMO- Rappelz, WoW (pre-Burning was last time I played to 60), City of Heroes, etc. The list just goes on and on. They have to close the distance on their target which is hard when you dont have Stealth like a rogue. So, in most MMO, this is how Mage vs Warrior plays out:
- Mage sees Warrior
- MAge snares Warrior
- Mage nickels and dime to zero w/o the Mage even getting in a hit
This is how rogues vs mage plays out in most MMOs I've played with my rogues/stalkers:
- Rogue sees Mage. Mage does not see Rogue
- Rogue backstabs/assassin-strike Mage for over half his health. Rogue stuns mage.
- If mage is still alive and tries to get range and cast. Rogue kicks the crap outta the mage and makes the spell cancel
- If Rogue gets in trouble Vanish. But 95% of the time he wont, he'll just polish off the squishy
Rogues are #1 for PvP encounters in any game. How can they be so hard to play when- according to any PvP statistic they win their encounters by a long shot. In City of Heroes the Devs ran some analysis and they found rogues (stalkers) led the kill count by a huge, sick margin. They had no choice but to nerf vanish to where it only placates the target.
You obvoiusly haven't played Shadowbane. Rogues aren't overpowered at all in that game. Rogues are only as powerful as you make them. you are talking about balancing issues, which has nothing directly to do with stealth
No, I anwsered your question why playing a Warrior takes more skill. You were obviously talking about WoW (10k hitpoint Warrior is your exact words). Now you trying to say you was talking bout Shadowbane lmao. Anyway thats what this whole thread is about- rogues causing balance issues. I already posted the Mythic post you have yet to discuss that. If you want to convince them rogues dont cause issues then convince us they dont (and Mythic). But you wont because they know what real pvp is bout
Like Mythic has already said, rogues presented balancing issues to DAoC no matter what they did (so we already know you not getting Stealth anyway cause they know better). So im still laughing at this thread whereas people that dont know how to play without stealth are begging for it. I played stealth classes yet I always turned it off thus you dont hear me crying for it. Real PvPers have skill. Stealth does not take skill. Jumping someone that doesnt know you're not there is not a hard thing to do. And relying on Stealth as your little fail safe to get away is just weak too me.
Stealth is seriously not needed for good, quality PvP. Its not fun for other people to look for a Stealth toon or require a "scout" to be around to effectively counter them (aka shadowbane).
Honestly explain to me your "strategy"? You turn on stealth and hunt down noobs that cant see you. How is that skill? And when you get in trouble you vanish. Tell me why that takes talent and why cant my wife click her stealth button to get her out of a fair 1v1. It was so easy for me to get kills with my rogues it just got way too boring.
So you don't like that they can vanish instanty. Ok lets say it takes 30 seconds to stealth. Then you wouldn't mind it? cool I'm glad I won you over. In shadowbane scouts can reveal other stealthers. So if you have a scout you never have to worry about them sneaking up on your group.
so your idea of good pvp is sticking close to a scout. so what if the scout gets killed? Additionally, thats extreme specialization which is what WAR is trying to get away from. Making it so groups cannot pvp effectively without a certain class is really lame. You realize there are no healing specialized classes here right? They want for all classes to be viable and be in COMBAT. Not hugging close to a scout. Thats not fun pvp nor the type of warfare they are going for, period. you realize we have no control over which Classes show up on the battlefield. You dont want one faction that just happens to have a plethora of rogues steamrolling the other. The war zones are designed for players to casually walk into a zone and start pvping. Not sit around and wait on a certain type to join the fight. We're talking about large RvR. sure, the min/max guilds will coordinate and fill their holes but the casual pvpers will absolutely be screwed and alienated
Trust me City of Heroes is just like Shadowbane. Heroes all huddle close to an Empath (aka scout) to detect rogues. Its retarded and ruins casual pvp for many. Groups wont even enter the zone w/o Empaths. In shadowbane you had groups not even wanting to venture out for fear of getting their packs looted w/o a scout. This is what Mythic is talking bout- its a never ending battle adding more and more counters to stealth because its a sick advantage to grant a player
<edit> sorry I was thinking of Hurricane Defenders in this case. Heroes used to huddle inside of a hurricane to avoid assassins. It was a stupid thing to watch. Their other counter was getting buffed from Empaths to see assassins
Oh, and playing a 10k hitpoint warrior, who just stands there and swings his weapon over and over takes a lot of skill?
What an ignorant comment.
Never played a 10k hit point warrior in wow. But if you say you made an ignorant comment that is fine. But stealth ala wow is easy mode.Warriors in Shadowbane can have 10k hit points. You don't seem to know what you are talking about
And stop with the "Vanish" talk already. I already said make it take 30 seconds to stealth. You seem to be obsessed with WOW's lame PVP . Go play a real PVP game like Shadowbane before you comment anymore.
I've played many MMOs and many successful real pvp games like Battlefield built exclusively for PvP. no, jsut because you have experience from Shadowbane doesnt carry much weight especially considering all your ideas are ripped straight from shadowbane or done elsewhere. Nothing original, nothing imaginative in your posts
News flash: In many other games you can already delay a rogue from restealthing this is nothing new lol. You are suggesting nothing new here we havent already seen done poorly. What do you think a delay will do? All a rogue has to do is run away until the delay kicks in that doesnt help.
this is going the way I'd expect from someone that has no original ideas all you're doing is ripping off old games thats done these features 100x already. WAR is attempting to bring something fresh and new- not rehashing crap we've seen in a ton of MMOs already.
Well I can see I'm not going to get anywhere posting here. You cant reason with some people. Luckily I dont have to in this case, the Devs already said you're not getting it so you can either move on or learn how to play real classes that do not depend on gimmicks to win a fair fight lol
I've played plenty of stealth classes and won my fights fair and square without Stealth against Classes known to one/two shot an unhidden rogue. IF I can do it and make a film to prove it then it just cant be hard to pvp without it. I've played rogues extensively and I know players with skill dont need Stealth. Its a nightmare for Developers to balance and statistics already support my conclusions. If you want I can link to my films who knows maybe you'll even learn how to PvP without having an unfair advantage against other players. You can PM me for the link if you want so you can see for yourself. Honestly all your ideas are just ripping many other games.
Relying on Classes to detect stealth and all that other stuff we've all seen done a buncha times already it sucks and it sucks especially for RvR whereas we're not jsut limited to jsut organized guild vs guild here. RvR is a lot more casual friendly you cant rely on special types being available to teams thats just no good for RvR. RvR is a totally different ballgame from Guild vs Guild. I've done plenty of both
sorry for bumping this post and arguing about something we already know not getting added lol
thats absurd. Every group is going to have a healer class. Thats a special class you have to bring. So whats wrong with bringing a reavealing class also. You make no sense.
thats absurd. Every group is going to have a healer class. Thats a special class you have to bring. So whats wrong with bringing a reavealing class also. You make no sense.
Repetition is fun, isn't it? If I understand correctly, WAR is trying to do away with healer-dependency as well. Sure, you want a healer--but not having a healer doesn't make you a sitting duck in WAR (ideally--haven't played it, so I'm speculating like everybody else). This isn't so simple as countering a given class's characteristics. It's an issue of unfair advantage.
Let me take your hypothetical and turn it on its head, and let's see if we can get a consensus here. Would you consent to stealth being in the game, but before a stealthed character can attack, he must cancel stealth and wait the 30 seconds you suggested? This is similar to Eve's cloaking mechanic, which I think is generally accepted as fairer than such systems as WOW's.
If you don't like that idea, why not? Personally I don't like it because it makes the stealthed character vulnerable for 30 seconds, and prevents him from sneaking up on someone and ganking him... hmm. Bad for the assassin, good for the other guy.
Isn't that really the argument here? No one's pulling for invisibility--personally, I think invisibility's a great idea, because I like being able to travel safely. What people want is gank-stealth. Stealth for the purpose of griefing people. Trouble is no one is willing to come out and say so, and unfortunately it's causing everybody else here to take you people less seriously.
It's the same underlying philosophy that surrounds the CC debate. People want CC because it turns large groups into mewling kittens that can be picked off one at a time.
I think the one thing Mythic is trying to do here, laudably so, is to make the game support such a thing as an honorable defeat. Who can remember the last time he was involved in PVP when he got involved in a fight that he lost, but thought was fair? It's a rare thing, and WOW has done little, I'm afraid, to cultivate a civil PVP environment. When I died to rogues in PVP I died cursing the game mechanics, and when I killed rogues in PVP I'm sure they cursed it as well (Flame Shock + EB Totem + Poison Cleansing Totem + 1.5 sec Chain Lightning). The fact is, people in competition always want the upper hand. That's human nature. It falls then to the developers to balance things in such a way as to be the least frustrating to the least fortunate. It's Rawls writ large. Winning is reward in itself. You don't have to be cheap to feel good about it (unless your only purpose in playing is to grief people, in which case you shouldn't be allowed to play), but losing is bad enough on its own; it doesn't need to be aggravated by the winner. Taking communication between opposing races away is an example of this effort, and I think taking stealth and large-scale CC away is just the next logical step.
And hey, if you don't like it, you can always just QQ more noob.
Peace and safety.
thats absurd. Every group is going to have a healer class. Thats a special class you have to bring. So whats wrong with bringing a reavealing class also. You make no sense.
Repetition is fun, isn't it? If I understand correctly, WAR is trying to do away with healer-dependency as well. Sure, you want a healer--but not having a healer doesn't make you a sitting duck in WAR (ideally--haven't played it, so I'm speculating like everybody else). This isn't so simple as countering a given class's characteristics. It's an issue of unfair advantage.
Let me take your hypothetical and turn it on its head, and let's see if we can get a consensus here. Would you consent to stealth being in the game, but before a stealthed character can attack, he must cancel stealth and wait the 30 seconds you suggested? This is similar to Eve's cloaking mechanic, which I think is generally accepted as fairer than such systems as WOW's.
If you don't like that idea, why not? Personally I don't like it because it makes the stealthed character vulnerable for 30 seconds, and prevents him from sneaking up on someone and ganking him... hmm. Bad for the assassin, good for the other guy.
Isn't that really the argument here? No one's pulling for invisibility--personally, I think invisibility's a great idea, because I like being able to travel safely. What people want is gank-stealth. Stealth for the purpose of griefing people. Trouble is no one is willing to come out and say so, and unfortunately it's causing everybody else here to take you people less seriously.
It's the same underlying philosophy that surrounds the CC debate. People want CC because it turns large groups into mewling kittens that can be picked off one at a time.
I think the one thing Mythic is trying to do here, laudably so, is to make the game support such a thing as an honorable defeat. Who can remember the last time he was involved in PVP when he got involved in a fight that he lost, but thought was fair? It's a rare thing, and WOW has done little, I'm afraid, to cultivate a civil PVP environment. When I died to rogues in PVP I died cursing the game mechanics, and when I killed rogues in PVP I'm sure they cursed it as well (Flame Shock + EB Totem + Poison Cleansing Totem + 1.5 sec Chain Lightning). The fact is, people in competition always want the upper hand. That's human nature. It falls then to the developers to balance things in such a way as to be the least frustrating to the least fortunate. It's Rawls writ large. Winning is reward in itself. You don't have to be cheap to feel good about it (unless your only purpose in playing is to grief people, in which case you shouldn't be allowed to play), but losing is bad enough on its own; it doesn't need to be aggravated by the winner. Taking communication between opposing races away is an example of this effort, and I think taking stealth and large-scale CC away is just the next logical step.
And hey, if you don't like it, you can always just QQ more noob.
Can I heavily applaud you? I mean...right on man ... Right on!
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
thats absurd. Every group is going to have a healer class. Thats a special class you have to bring. So whats wrong with bringing a reavealing class also. You make no sense.
There are no specialized healers in this game. Watch the WAR developer interviews lmao. <edit> This way, casual groups won't get steamrolled without having a specific class type. Why do I keep repeating myself read my posts I've said this a bunch of times. If you dont wanna read my posts then at least go watch the developer interviews with Paul he explains everything in great detail. That will help you understand RvR
We already talked about this in this thread and I already agreed that it would be a good soultion. .
But people like Vajunas won't listen to reason. He seems to think instastealth is the only kind of stealth that can exist. he just doesn't get it.
We already talked about this in this thread and I already agreed that it would be a good soultion. .
But people like Vajunas won't listen to reason. He seems to think instastealth is the only kind of stealth that can exist. he just doesn't get it.
Actually I was hoping for something a little more substantial than the few lines with which you responded to the other pseudo-cloaking suggestion. If you have a post actually detailing your view, by all means feel free to link me there, since I'm having a hard time figuring out what exactly it is you want to see, since so far from your posts the best I can gather is "no stealth=easy game for kiddies." The impression I get is that you were just being agreeable then, as now, to avoid dealing with the deliberately confrontational problems with the hypothetical.
Now if I understand your agreement, you're saying you'd be fine with stealth with nearly any kind of restriction, as long as it was available. Judging from your other posts, this springs from a concept of soloing, which could presumably apply to PVP given proper use of terrain and fixtures. Wouldn't that be achievable without stealth? What if we put it in potions as some have suggested, with the given restrictions--or give it to casters in the form of a self-only invisibility spell? What if we had a skill that caused aggressive mobs to lose their aggression? Would you approve of it being useable only in PVE (i.e., if you move into the view-area of an opposing character, stealth breaks immediately and the innactivity timer begins to toll)?
Point is, surely there comes a point at which you would agree with the people at Mythic that the counter-measures in place to prevent the abuse of stealth frustrate its purpose. That's not a fatal concession to your argument; in fact I think it's an inevitable result, in light of the fact that people with enough experience on the receiving end of stealth and its counterparts can and will continue to come up with very good reasons to limit or otherwise modify the functionality of an originally very basic concept.
I could come up with a limitless number of hypotheticals, and ask rhetorical questions all day every day for weeks, but what I really want to know is why you are so adamant about keeping stealth. "Easy game for kiddies" is a cop out. We're all adults here, and even those of us who aren't can probably fool the rest at least some of the time. Let's talk about mechanics. Isn't it possible that someone could come up with a good game with genuinely interesting combat concepts, and a variety of them, without stealth? Couldn't the solo hunter image and functionality be preserved in other ways? Most importantly, though, if you insist that neither of these can be achieved, why not?
Peace and safety.
I've already commented on that and said its been done and it hasn't worked (read my posts if you're going to reply to me lol). You guys post your ideas like its 'your' ideas but infact you're jsut ripping off many other games. I suggest you play a lot more MMOs. I know my rogue in City of Villains he doesnt have instant stealth I have to wait for hide. If I'm caught in a bad predicament, I just run away til stealth comes backup. Then restealth and recontinue the killing spree. Stealth is a ganker's dream seriously and its easy as pie to use in these MMOs. same with rogues in other games I've seen it all. I've seen mage types place DoT on assassins and the assassin just runs away for a few seconds and then comes back to polish them off. Your ideas are nothing, nothing new. Been there, used it, and I say that takes no skill.
You are right you're not going to convince any experienced vet we wont have fun without worrying about Stealth units. Its always this way- stealthers (gankers/wolves) trying to convince the sheep they are gonna have more fun having to search every bush for a rogue lol
Now in BF2142 my stealth unit takes skill to play. he is merely cloaked but anyone can see him and shoot him. FPS games have a thing called "Aim" you see. So no special class type is needed to see me. Plus I dont get any bonuses for my damage for being cloaked. I'm a true Stealth unit in that game.
So yeah for other games a recon is fine. But really WAR can easily just add some sort of spell that conjures an eyeball or hawk and allows a mage to recon that way if they so desire (anyway they see fit to make that work with their warhammer license is fine). Same with military games they can just let players use a satellite. But really this isn't an RTS- many us will have a lot of fun just going at it. But if they wanted to add that depth, they could always do that. No stealth classes needed.