A large percentage of people love stealth, and they aren't going to have it? seems like they are simplifying the game for the kiddies. MMORPGS are getting simpler and more mindless everyday. It seems this game will be no exception too bad.
Not really WAr is about WAr not hide and seek there is a reason why there is no sealth ... uhh its called uhhh IP ever heard of it stealth units don't really fit WArhammer IP and becuase of this they are not goign to have a stealth unit just becuase WOW, DAoc (there own game ), or any ther MMO does.
I would agree with you about the simple factor however, first sign of it in WAr is not the stealth issue but the instance pvp ... ahh make it easy for the lazys mmoers to play .
Originally posted by vajuras
Originally posted by ghoul31
We already talked about this in this thread and I already agreed that it would be a good soultion. . But people like Vajunas won't listen to reason. He seems to think instastealth is the only kind of stealth that can exist. he just doesn't get it.
I've already commented on that and said its been done and it hasn't worked (read my posts if you're going to reply to me lol). You guys post your ideas like its 'your' ideas but infact you're jsut ripping off many other games. I suggest you play a lot more MMOs. I know my rogue in City of Villains he doesnt have instant stealth I have to wait for hide. If I'm caught in a bad predicament, I just run away til stealth comes backup. Then restealth and recontinue the killing spree. Stealth is a ganker's dream seriously and its easy as pie to use in these MMOs. same with rogues in other games I've seen it all. I've seen mage types place DoT on assassins and the assassin just runs away for a few seconds and then comes back to polish them off. Your ideas are nothing, nothing new. Been there, used it, and I say that takes no skill.
You are right you're not going to convince any experienced vet we wont have fun without worrying about Stealth units. Its always this way- stealthers (gankers/wolves) trying to convince the sheep they are gonna have more fun having to search every bush for a rogue lol
Now in BF2142 my stealth unit takes skill to play. he is merely cloaked but anyone can see him and shoot him. FPS games have a thing called "Aim" you see. So no special class type is needed to see me. Plus I dont get any bonuses for my damage for being cloaked. I'm a true Stealth unit in that game.
So yeah for other games a recon is fine. But really WAR can easily just add some sort of spell that conjures an eyeball or hawk and allows a mage to recon that way if they so desire (anyway they see fit to make that work with their warhammer license is fine). Same with military games they can just let players use a satellite. But really this isn't an RTS- many us will have a lot of fun just going at it. But if they wanted to add that depth, they could always do that. No stealth classes needed.
I agree with you but stealth in daoc is pretty balenced. yeah yeah they can gank but they can also get owned pretty hard.
What about PS that also has a system of stealth (cloak)
But i agree is is needed ?? I would say no , but i like the idea.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Any class with some sort of stealth/cloaking ability is superior and idea for ganking or multikill a other players. The reason is already answer in this topic. But I will write them down again. Stealth/cloaking players wait for the best point to attack there foe like when they are in trouble, low health or engage in combat. Then the strike will all there ability to inflict max damage and easy over-kill there defence foe and then flee the scene and active there stealth/cloaking ability. In that way the can act supieor like some sort of a skilled ninja and bla bla bla.
These type class appeal a lot to younger kids as they need less skill to play and therefore ideal for them. Personnally I despite these classes and the kind of people there play them. I think i might consider spitting on them. They are serius the lowlife in any MMORPG, these Stealth players. Yuck.
I've already commented on that and said its been done and it hasn't worked (read my posts if you're going to reply to me lol). You guys post your ideas like its 'your' ideas but infact you're jsut ripping off many other games. I suggest you play a lot more MMOs. I know my rogue in City of Villains he doesnt have instant stealth I have to wait for hide. If I'm caught in a bad predicament, I just run away til stealth comes backup. Then restealth and recontinue the killing spree. Stealth is a ganker's dream seriously and its easy as pie to use in these MMOs. same with rogues in other games I've seen it all. I've seen mage types place DoT on assassins and the assassin just runs away for a few seconds and then comes back to polish them off. Your ideas are nothing, nothing new. Been there, used it, and I say that takes no skill.
Did you even read what the guy said? He said you have to be visible for 30 seconds before you can attack someone. How can you gank someone if you are visible for 30 seconds? You aren't making any sense at all.
anyhow, stealth could work, to remove the wow rogue gankmachine feel from the class i would suggest something like this: 1. stealth is an ability that takes 1 minute to apply.
2. when exiting stealth you cannot perform any actions for 30 seconds. then you stealthers are happy, you can sneak through the enemy lines, attack siege equipment, distract people from the fight, scout for your group, etc. and everyone who isnt a stealther is happy, because they wont get ganked. tahdah!
Sounds good to me. All the babies in the forum don't even want to discuss stealth tough.
Okay since the OP claims he wants this gimped recon type I still say why cant a mage conjure a hawk to do this?
now if this stealthed unit has to sit still for 1 minute to apply his skill thats a little different. Still I dont like the fact that my team can takeover some land and some recon can sneak behind us and start taking out vital assets.
You still would want a counter- thats assuming this gimped recon has to sit perfectly still for a whole minute to apply stealth. This is hypothetically speaking- there is no developer on this Earth that would make a class this gimped. But yeah, my anwser is still the same because surely this uber gimped class would request buffs + we would still need a special class type to counter this to protect our military assets.
This stealth unit can possibly be the most dangerous unit on the battlefield because he still breaks all the rules. He can simply sneak pass all of your guards and take out defenses, etc. Getting PK'ed by an invisible foe sucks hard but this sucks worse. You're still getting sucker punched and its unfair to other players that have no way to detect you. If there any sort of goals like protecting a flag well screw it all- there's no point in setting up defenses if a rogue can just ninja in. Even if the defenses require a lot of damage, then uber guilds will roll in with hordes of rogues to do it.
In City of Heroes my old VG used to attack enemy guild bases and blow up their stuff without having to kill a single soul if they're not prepared for a stalker rush (stealth types). I know it probably sounds incredulous to you but yes we've used this strategy as well and it was problematic because there was only one specific type that could detect us but he was so unpopular- most guilds didnt have one. And if you provide to many counters to the stealth type, the recons will complain you are nerfing them even more (yes I've been on that side of the fence as well in games)
Its a nightmare to balance any way you spin it. Stealth is just too game breaking in MMOs in their current form. I do applaud that posters effort to think out of the box. However I am disappointed that the OP has not suggested any original solutions like this
Also, stealthers do their best work with other stealth types. They tend to shun any other types which is bad for teamplay. How would that help you- if some warpriest is right beside you blowing your cover?
so much better to just leave out stealth it solves so many problems. Even this solution, as gimped as it appears, still causes major balancing issues. what do you think is going to happen- players will want to jsut sit around and guard all their assets? its much easier to defend if you cover the chokepoints this way you can spot attackers on their way to your assets.
Here I've chosen the best case scenario that the stealth AT is uber gimped he still causes major problems. Just imagine if the Devs decided to give him any sort of items to buff this to whereas he can activate stealth if he's out of combat for 30 seconds. Then you'll have a master of escape capable of slaughtering entire teams solo (because he can just run away, apply stealth, wait til the victim is busy, then wait 30 seconds to attack again). It takes very little to make a stealth class the ultimate killer but then if you decided to make it so this special type of class can do no dmg even unstealthed then we can discuss that lol
Seriously, I think a game without stealth is an improvement. How realistic is it that something can vanish into thin air? There'll be stealth in WAR, but it'll be hiding behind a tree or in a bush, not somehow becoming transparent.
I don't see how removing stealth makes it more simple, either. If you want to ambush someone, use strategy, what routes do they normally take? Set up beside paths and all that.
And lastly, from what I've seen WAR will be anything but mindless. It's going to be pretty skill based and you'll need to pick strategies with some sort of thing they're putting in, I haven't done research on that but it's something you pick to add some stat or other.
Go play a rogue on WoW, we won't be missing you in WAR!
As for me, I'll be cracking skulls on my Black Orc!
Okay since the OP claims he wants this gimped recon type I still say why cant a mage conjure a hawk to do this?
now if this stealthed unit has to sit still for 1 minute to apply his skill thats a little different. Still I dont like the fact that my team can takeover some land and some recon can sneak behind us and start taking out vital assets. You still would want a counter- thats assuming this gimped recon has to sit perfectly still for a whole minute to apply stealth. This is hypothetically speaking- there is no developer on this Earth that would make a class this gimped. But yeah, my anwser is still the same because surely this uber gimped class would request buffs + we would still need a special class type to counter this to protect our military assets. This stealth unit can possibly be the most dangerous unit on the battlefield because he still breaks all the rules. He can simply sneak pass all of your guards and take out defenses, etc. Getting PK'ed by an invisible foe sucks hard but this sucks worse. You're still getting sucker punched and its unfair to other players that have no way to detect you. If there any sort of goals like protecting a flag well screw it all- there's no point in setting up defenses if a rogue can just ninja in. Even if the defenses require a lot of damage, then uber guilds will roll in with hordes of rogues to do it. In City of Heroes my old VG used to attack enemy guild bases and blow up their stuff without having to kill a single soul if they're not prepared for a stalker rush (stealth types). I know it probably sounds incredulous to you but yes we've used this strategy as well and it was problematic because there was only one specific type that could detect us but he was so unpopular- most guilds didnt have one. And if you provide to many counters to the stealth type, the recons will complain you are nerfing them even more (yes I've been on that side of the fence as well in games) Its a nightmare to balance any way you spin it. Stealth is just too game breaking in MMOs in their current form. I do applaud that posters effort to think out of the box. However I am disappointed that the OP has not suggested any original solutions like this so much better to just leave out stealth it solves so many problems. Even this solution, as gimped as it appears, still causes major balancing issues Here I've chosen the best case scenario that the stealth AT is uber gimped he still causes major problems. Just imagine if the Devs decided to give him any sort of items to buff this to whereas he can activate stealth if he's out of combat for 30 seconds. Then you'll have a master of escape capable of slaughtering entire teams solo (because he can just run away, apply stealth, wait til the victim is busy, then wait 30 seconds to attack again). It takes very little to make a stealth class the ultimate killer which is why they always #1 for most kills in most any MMO that posts this information
Ok. you are really grasping at straws now. Your entire arguement was that stealth was bad because of ganking. We solved that problem. Now now u have to think up new excuses
If you have warriors and mages guarding your flag, stealth wont do you any good at all. You still have to defeat all the troops guarding the flag before you can take it. Again,your arguement makes no sense.
Ok. you are really grasping at straws now. Your entire arguement was that stealth was bad because of ganking. We solved that problem. Now now u have to think up new excuses If you have warriors and mages guarding your flag, stealth wont do you any good at all. You still have to defeat all the troops guarding the flag before you can take it. Again,your arguement makes no sense.
So your idea of fun pvp is requiring the mages and warriors to sit around close to the flag / asset which could be anywhere from minutes to hours and hours possibly. Okay I give up you just cant be serious lol you must not have watched the RvR films at all that they presented. I know you didnt theres just no way you coulda watched their presentation
However you did go extreme with this recon type to the point its pretty unfeasible to implement. Waiting 30 seconds before you can attack? Gimme a break this thread is getting kinda outlandish at this point. spinning around in circles. I'm positive that guy was joking or just trying to give you some idea to branch off of but you got so desperate for support you grabbed that straw instead of trying to use your imagination to come up with something thats remotely feasible. It's pretty sad I'm being honest that idea was pure garbage and is totally unfeasible lmao. I'm not trying to attack anyone but surely why in god's green earth would someone be down for getting slaughtered as soon as they unstealth? And heaven forbid if there's an anti-stealth counter in which you must have in an MMO. Those recons would get slaughtered mercilessly lol. There's no way that idea is any shape of form feasible this has just gotta be a joke?
I was trying to be patient and give these ideas serious thought but the more I think about this- this gotta be a hoax
Anyway I promise you those gimped little recons would get hunted down all it takes just one anti-stealth class to show up and given the way people hate stealth types I'm sure they'll be plenty of hunting parties. And because they cant attack while stealthed and cant attack when they unstealth their sitting ducks. You're trapped by your own flawed logic you just created the gimpiest class I've ever heard of lmao
Let's review this mess (I'm going to summarize this entire thread):
1) By your own admission, you said WAR should have an anti-stealth class (like shadowbane)
2) This gimped class has to wait 1 minute to stealth
3) This class cant attack anyone while stealthed
4) This gimped class has to wait a whole 30 seconds after he leaves stealth to attack.
When we add up all this stuff together we get the most gimped class in MMO history. He's supposed to be a recon but hes totally defenseless lol. His only prayer is that no scouts are around, the terrain is huge, etc. There is no point in implementing such a gimped class he would get murdered. It's not even worth considering
A large percentage of people love stealth, and they aren't going to have it? seems like they are simplifying the game for the kiddies. MMORPGS are getting simpler and more mindless everyday. It seems this game will be no exception too bad.
Or of course the real reason for no stealth is they are trying to remain true to warhammer lore, that and stealth is too overpowered in any PvP game.
Let's review this mess (I'm going to summarize this entire thread): 1) By your own admission, you said WAR should have an anti-stealth class (like shadowbane) 2) This gimped class has to wait 1 minute to stealth 3) This class cant attack anyone while stealthed 4) This gimped class has to wait a whole 30 seconds after he leaves stealth to attack. When we add up all this stuff together we get the most gimped class in MMO history. He's supposed to be a recon but hes totally defenseless lol. His only prayer is that no scouts are around, the terrain is huge, etc. There is no point in implementing such a gimped class he would get murdered. It's not even worth considering
First you say stealth is too overpowering, now you stay stealthers are the most gimped class ever. Stop contradicticting yourself. You aren't even trying to find a middle ground. You are just trying to be obnoxious.
Let's review this mess (I'm going to summarize this entire thread): 1) By your own admission, you said WAR should have an anti-stealth class (like shadowbane) 2) This gimped class has to wait 1 minute to stealth 3) This class cant attack anyone while stealthed 4) This gimped class has to wait a whole 30 seconds after he leaves stealth to attack. When we add up all this stuff together we get the most gimped class in MMO history. He's supposed to be a recon but hes totally defenseless lol. His only prayer is that no scouts are around, the terrain is huge, etc. There is no point in implementing such a gimped class he would get murdered. It's not even worth considering
First you say stealth is too overpowering, now you stay stealthers are the most gimped class ever. Stop contradicticting yourself. You aren't even trying to find a middle ground. You are just trying to be obnoxious.
First off I assumed we were talking about the traditional rogue class. At least they make sense. I had no idea we were talking about gimped recons that cant even defend themselves lol I'm serious thats a horrible, terrible, and gimped class period. This has just gotta be a hoax there is no way anyone would roll such a gimped class if they're that nutty they gonna cancel their subscription first time they get ganked by a scouting party lol. They cant even freakin defend themselves gimmie a break. You made it a tactical error for them to use Stealth as a matter of fact. Better off just hiding behind bushes and trees at least then you can fight back lol. you literally make it their death sentence for them to use stealth
I had no idea you were absolutely serious about that gimped rogue class that guy joked about. honestly he was either joking or just idly posted that idea but for some reason you latched onto it like gold. I seriously assumed you were trying to at least make it so hide would just automatically reapply. I thought to myself surely he is not talking about that gimped recon that guy posted? But you are I just cant believe it get real that's a messed up idea
Learn how to play out in the open, watch some PvP films, and get rid of the thought of playing pvp easy mode.
Stealth as a game mechanic IS very powerful, but since most of the people reading this thread are most familiar with WoW, id like to point out for the education of those not familiar with WoW that the thing that makes rogues in that game so powerful is stealth + STUNLOCK. Those 2 mechanics combined make the rogue class so OP in 1v1 encounters. Ive never heard anyone complain about getting jumped by a feral druid, pre-class review, because even though they could engage targets, they had a hell of a time closing the deal once the fight started. Personally, i could'nt care less if WAR has stealth or not. My main in WoW is a 70 rogue, played since day one of that title, and even i will admit its ridiculous the havok i can inflict on single targets.
Hm, this guy made an interesting post but unfortunately left out a critical fact. A high level druid can surely murder a lowbie just any other high lvl ganker. To make matters worse, the druid can stealth and just resume the bloodshed my friend used to camp lowbies all day long and once they called in their high lvl buddies he'd just hide, wait til they got bored and left, and camp them all over again lol
One of the worst ganker combos is rogue + druid (even attacking even level victims). Remember, as you know but left out, stealthers love to stick together. They dont work as efficiently with any other types but stealthers. So if the rogue takes damage guess what? The druid just heals him. Its stunlock + insane druid buffs + heals. I've been on the receiving end of this crazy duo and when we brought in a scout (warlock or hunter) we'd never find them. They'd see us from a mile away but we cant see them because our detection radius was way smaller
People complain about the rogues cause thats the guy that dealt the final blow in most cases. But yeah rogue + druid is insane combo. I've teamed with them plenty of times myself when i used to play WoW. I was bait on my shaman since I could instaheal. Would lure our victims into a false sense of security and uncloak any rogues they might have had while my friends would suddenly unstealthed, heal me to full, and the bloodshed would begin. was fun, but way too easy. but we used it because it was dirt easy and we loved to gank. Our whole guild was dedicated towards making ppl lives miserable.
You guys are being absurd. Stealth is a ganking class? There was no ganking in DAOC. If you were in a PvP zone, you knew you could face members of opposing realms. Stealthers were deadly if they got the jump on you, as they should be, which ultimately led to people GROUPING. Stealthers without a buffbot were also dead meat if they were ever discovered. Look at WoW battlegrounds in comparrison to DAOC, no one groups. There is zero teamwork. Stop painting stealthers as something they were not.
That said, they don't really fit into the Warhammer Universe. Stealthers are also almost impossible to ballance as well, usually being either one of the weakest or strongest classes. Hopefully they get added in an expansion in the future, because Stealth Wars in DAOC were alot of fun.
Finally, to those who don't like being ganked, it might be time to look forward to a different game. It's a PvP game, everyone gets jumped, everyone gets killed, ganked and spit on. If it bothers you now, it's because it hasn't happened enough to you already.
Originally posted by vajuras "Stealth, meaning the ability to become totally invisible, is difficult from a game balance perspective. It's no secret to anyone that we have (in Camelot) added more and more counters to invisibility over the years. This is because there is no strategy to deal with an invisible enemy. Okay, I take that back, there IS a strategy - "be the SECOND guy to see the assassin." As MMOS go, though, it sucks to be the FIRST guy to see the assassin, because it's not so much "seeing" as "attempting to draw breath around six inches of cold steel." If we could go back in time, we would probably not include invisibility in the rogue toolkit. We would have agility and wall climbing and special tactics and more, but not total invisibility. And there won't be invisibility in WAR as a result, even though there will be rogue careers."
no invisibility coming, this is a blunt statement too me.
I'm going to wrap up my interest in this thread since it seems to be getting out of hand. I don't know about the first person to mention the "must wait x time before attacking," but I mentioned it from experience. In EVE, stealth has a delay on deactivation before any other modules (attacks or other actions) can be activated. It's part of a complicated system, with different timers in place, but what it really means is that the solo ganking problem is gone, and the recon problem is diminished. Usually what happens is the baiter goes in and does the lockdown, then the others can just unstealth and wait patiently for the timers to wear off. The other use is, of course, travel. I mentioned it as an alternative to see just exactly what the stealthmongers are really looking for. In the end I think the best we've seen is "stealth for the sake of stealth" which carries no weight whatsoever in arguing for an implementation in WAR.
The point was that there simply is no iteration of stealth which can be confined to the single only acceptable use of invisibility: travel. There is no means or level of refinement, no amount of restrictions or counters which will result necessarily in a game which has stealth being necessarily fair on a consistent basis to those on the receiving end. It just can't be done in any game to be developed in a reasonable time for a reasonable budget. I regret that the most adamant proponents of stealth have evaded this issue by just stating their conclusions without any coherent rationales.
The weight of the information now available, from the bulk of games out there that have utilized a stealth mechanic, is that, even if the mechanic is not unbalancing on its face, it is one that is consistently prone to abuse, and one which can be under any set of restrictions very easily made into a balance problem.
You can put on a million timers and timer conditionals, dozens of countering mechanics and classes, and a litany of situational barriers, and in the end, no matter how you approach stealth, you end up creating a stealth metagame. If we give the stealthers this, then we must give the counter-stealthers this, which means for balance sake we must do this, which means this and this, except for this, which we have to balance against this. It's a design nightmare. I'll be more than happy to concede that in some great visionary paradise of gaming, there may, indeed, be a way to implement a stealth system which can be universally balanced against everything else in the game. But the cost of creating that machine is catastrophic in terms of time, design resources, and funding, and I applaud Mythic in seeing these problems and addressing them in the best way possible: No invisibility.
Stealth as a game mechanic IS very powerful, but since most of the people reading this thread are most familiar with WoW, id like to point out for the education of those not familiar with WoW that the thing that makes rogues in that game so powerful is stealth + STUNLOCK. Those 2 mechanics combined make the rogue class so OP in 1v1 encounters. Ive never heard anyone complain about getting jumped by a feral druid, pre-class review, because even though they could engage targets, they had a hell of a time closing the deal once the fight started. Personally, i could'nt care less if WAR has stealth or not. My main in WoW is a 70 rogue, played since day one of that title, and even i will admit its ridiculous the havok i can inflict on single targets.
Hm, this guy made an interesting post but unfortunately left out a critical fact. A high level druid can surely murder a lowbie just any other high lvl ganker. To make matters worse, the druid can stealth and just resume the bloodshed my friend used to camp lowbies all day long and once they called in their high lvl buddies he'd just hide, wait til they got bored and left, and camp them all over again lol
One of the worst ganker combos is rogue + druid (even attacking even level victims). Remember, as you know but left out, stealthers love to stick together. They dont work as efficiently with any other types but stealthers. So if the rogue takes damage guess what? The druid just heals him. Its stunlock + insane druid buffs + heals. I've been on the receiving end of this crazy duo and when we brought in a scout (warlock or hunter) we'd never find them. They'd see us from a mile away but we cant see them because our detection radius was way smaller
People complain about the rogues cause thats the guy that dealt the final blow in most cases. But yeah rogue + druid is insane combo. I've teamed with them plenty of times myself when i used to play WoW. I was bait on my shaman since I could instaheal. Would lure our victims into a false sense of security and uncloak any rogues they might have had while my friends would suddenly unstealthed, heal me to full, and the bloodshed would begin. was fun, but way too easy. but we used it because it was dirt easy and we loved to gank. Our whole guild was dedicated towards making ppl lives miserable.
Druids can learn a finishing skill at level 64 it hink that allows them to stunlock targets as well.
They can stun you for up to 7 seconds if you have 5 combo points on you.
Its not a "proper" stunlock and its not even as close as good any a rogue
but it give me more than enough time to shap into caster, heal full bar, back into cat and apply a mangle+shred combo.
Originally posted by vajuras I can't believe people are still crying for stealth. I repeat the Dev's statement on this once again : Originally posted by vajuras "Stealth, meaning the ability to become totally invisible, is difficult from a game balance perspective. It's no secret to anyone that we have (in Camelot) added more and more counters to invisibility over the years. This is because there is no strategy to deal with an invisible enemy. Okay, I take that back, there IS a strategy - "be the SECOND guy to see the assassin." As MMOS go, though, it sucks to be the FIRST guy to see the assassin, because it's not so much "seeing" as "attempting to draw breath around six inches of cold steel." If we could go back in time, we would probably not include invisibility in the rogue toolkit. We would have agility and wall climbing and special tactics and more, but not total invisibility. And there won't be invisibility in WAR as a result, even though there will be rogue careers."
Does "Invisibility" really have to mean stealth? When saying invisibility they may not mean stealth. It's a slight possibility that "rogues" will get some spell equal to stealth, just not totally invisible, however it doesn't seem likely.
If we could go back in time, we would probably not include invisibility in the rogue toolkit. We would have agility and wall climbing and special tactics and more, but not total invisibility.
Stealth=total invisibility, maybe not... Maybe we will get stealth, but u won't be totally invisible.
The first few pages of this thread gave me a few good laughs. So many people who clearly haven't played a single game of Warhammer Fantasy felt it necessary to comment about how there's no stealth in Warhammer games. My favorite was: "Plus in no Warhammer game... ever... did they have 'stealthers' not even in 40k to my knowledge." LMAO @ that. If there have never been any stealthers in Warhammer, then find another way to explain to me what Waywatchers and Assassins do...
Did you guys happen to see one game played (probably High Elves against Orcs) and felt like that somehow gave you some kind of expertise to go on a forum and make things up off the top of your heads?
Skaven, Dark Elves, and Wood Elves all have units that use game mechanics that are very similar to the way stealth works in MMOs...and this is after a revamp of the rules that eliminated at least 40% of the existing units from the previous ruleset. You, as the player, can see exactly where said units are, but they at times become effectively invisible to your units on the table-top...and that's not stealth how?
It's not like stealth classes are some nigh-unstoppable force in the world of MMOs: they usually get off 1 gank (2 if they're lucky) and then get killed by a group of enemies. What's the big deal?
...And I wish someone had just made a thread to flame rogues instead of having people post inane, inconsequent posts about how rogues are for newbs and cowards on this thread and adding all of that filler between posts where people said constructive things. An argument can be made as to why ANY class is for "n00bs" and/or pansies.
Watch:
"Hunters/Rangers and Casters are for n00bs because they use ranged attacks and generally have pets that keep other toons away from them."
"Tanks are for n00bs because they hide behind heavier armor than everybody else."
Funny how so many of the people on here complaining about the annoying 13 year-old WoW players have the same maturity-level and openly display it...
Achiever 60.00% Explorer 33.33% Killer 80.00% Socializer 26.67%
According to this survey, I'm an item-whoring ganker. I guess I should have stuck with WoW then...lmao.
Comments
I would agree with you about the simple factor however, first sign of it in WAr is not the stealth issue but the instance pvp ... ahh make it easy for the lazys mmoers to play .
I've already commented on that and said its been done and it hasn't worked (read my posts if you're going to reply to me lol). You guys post your ideas like its 'your' ideas but infact you're jsut ripping off many other games. I suggest you play a lot more MMOs. I know my rogue in City of Villains he doesnt have instant stealth I have to wait for hide. If I'm caught in a bad predicament, I just run away til stealth comes backup. Then restealth and recontinue the killing spree. Stealth is a ganker's dream seriously and its easy as pie to use in these MMOs. same with rogues in other games I've seen it all. I've seen mage types place DoT on assassins and the assassin just runs away for a few seconds and then comes back to polish them off. Your ideas are nothing, nothing new. Been there, used it, and I say that takes no skill.
You are right you're not going to convince any experienced vet we wont have fun without worrying about Stealth units. Its always this way- stealthers (gankers/wolves) trying to convince the sheep they are gonna have more fun having to search every bush for a rogue lol
Now in BF2142 my stealth unit takes skill to play. he is merely cloaked but anyone can see him and shoot him. FPS games have a thing called "Aim" you see. So no special class type is needed to see me. Plus I dont get any bonuses for my damage for being cloaked. I'm a true Stealth unit in that game.
So yeah for other games a recon is fine. But really WAR can easily just add some sort of spell that conjures an eyeball or hawk and allows a mage to recon that way if they so desire (anyway they see fit to make that work with their warhammer license is fine). Same with military games they can just let players use a satellite. But really this isn't an RTS- many us will have a lot of fun just going at it. But if they wanted to add that depth, they could always do that. No stealth classes needed.
I agree with you but stealth in daoc is pretty balenced. yeah yeah they can gank but they can also get owned pretty hard.What about PS that also has a system of stealth (cloak)
But i agree is is needed ?? I would say no , but i like the idea.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
The Statement above is actully true for one time.
Any class with some sort of stealth/cloaking ability is superior and idea for ganking or multikill a other players. The reason is already answer in this topic. But I will write them down again. Stealth/cloaking players wait for the best point to attack there foe like when they are in trouble, low health or engage in combat. Then the strike will all there ability to inflict max damage and easy over-kill there defence foe and then flee the scene and active there stealth/cloaking ability. In that way the can act supieor like some sort of a skilled ninja and bla bla bla.
These type class appeal a lot to younger kids as they need less skill to play and therefore ideal for them. Personnally I despite these classes and the kind of people there play them. I think i might consider spitting on them. They are serius the lowlife in any MMORPG, these Stealth players. Yuck.
Did you even read what the guy said? He said you have to be visible for 30 seconds before you can attack someone. How can you gank someone if you are visible for 30 seconds? You aren't making any sense at all.
Sounds good to me. All the babies in the forum don't even want to discuss stealth tough.
Okay since the OP claims he wants this gimped recon type I still say why cant a mage conjure a hawk to do this?
now if this stealthed unit has to sit still for 1 minute to apply his skill thats a little different. Still I dont like the fact that my team can takeover some land and some recon can sneak behind us and start taking out vital assets.
You still would want a counter- thats assuming this gimped recon has to sit perfectly still for a whole minute to apply stealth. This is hypothetically speaking- there is no developer on this Earth that would make a class this gimped. But yeah, my anwser is still the same because surely this uber gimped class would request buffs + we would still need a special class type to counter this to protect our military assets.
This stealth unit can possibly be the most dangerous unit on the battlefield because he still breaks all the rules. He can simply sneak pass all of your guards and take out defenses, etc. Getting PK'ed by an invisible foe sucks hard but this sucks worse. You're still getting sucker punched and its unfair to other players that have no way to detect you. If there any sort of goals like protecting a flag well screw it all- there's no point in setting up defenses if a rogue can just ninja in. Even if the defenses require a lot of damage, then uber guilds will roll in with hordes of rogues to do it.
In City of Heroes my old VG used to attack enemy guild bases and blow up their stuff without having to kill a single soul if they're not prepared for a stalker rush (stealth types). I know it probably sounds incredulous to you but yes we've used this strategy as well and it was problematic because there was only one specific type that could detect us but he was so unpopular- most guilds didnt have one. And if you provide to many counters to the stealth type, the recons will complain you are nerfing them even more (yes I've been on that side of the fence as well in games)
Its a nightmare to balance any way you spin it. Stealth is just too game breaking in MMOs in their current form. I do applaud that posters effort to think out of the box. However I am disappointed that the OP has not suggested any original solutions like this
Also, stealthers do their best work with other stealth types. They tend to shun any other types which is bad for teamplay. How would that help you- if some warpriest is right beside you blowing your cover?
so much better to just leave out stealth it solves so many problems. Even this solution, as gimped as it appears, still causes major balancing issues. what do you think is going to happen- players will want to jsut sit around and guard all their assets? its much easier to defend if you cover the chokepoints this way you can spot attackers on their way to your assets.
Here I've chosen the best case scenario that the stealth AT is uber gimped he still causes major problems. Just imagine if the Devs decided to give him any sort of items to buff this to whereas he can activate stealth if he's out of combat for 30 seconds. Then you'll have a master of escape capable of slaughtering entire teams solo (because he can just run away, apply stealth, wait til the victim is busy, then wait 30 seconds to attack again). It takes very little to make a stealth class the ultimate killer but then if you decided to make it so this special type of class can do no dmg even unstealthed then we can discuss that lol
I don't see how removing stealth makes it more simple, either. If you want to ambush someone, use strategy, what routes do they normally take? Set up beside paths and all that.
And lastly, from what I've seen WAR will be anything but mindless. It's going to be pretty skill based and you'll need to pick strategies with some sort of thing they're putting in, I haven't done research on that but it's something you pick to add some stat or other.
Go play a rogue on WoW, we won't be missing you in WAR!
As for me, I'll be cracking skulls on my Black Orc!
Ok. you are really grasping at straws now. Your entire arguement was that stealth was bad because of ganking. We solved that problem. Now now u have to think up new excuses
If you have warriors and mages guarding your flag, stealth wont do you any good at all. You still have to defeat all the troops guarding the flag before you can take it. Again,your arguement makes no sense.
So your idea of fun pvp is requiring the mages and warriors to sit around close to the flag / asset which could be anywhere from minutes to hours and hours possibly. Okay I give up you just cant be serious lol you must not have watched the RvR films at all that they presented. I know you didnt theres just no way you coulda watched their presentation
However you did go extreme with this recon type to the point its pretty unfeasible to implement. Waiting 30 seconds before you can attack? Gimme a break this thread is getting kinda outlandish at this point. spinning around in circles. I'm positive that guy was joking or just trying to give you some idea to branch off of but you got so desperate for support you grabbed that straw instead of trying to use your imagination to come up with something thats remotely feasible. It's pretty sad I'm being honest that idea was pure garbage and is totally unfeasible lmao. I'm not trying to attack anyone but surely why in god's green earth would someone be down for getting slaughtered as soon as they unstealth? And heaven forbid if there's an anti-stealth counter in which you must have in an MMO. Those recons would get slaughtered mercilessly lol. There's no way that idea is any shape of form feasible this has just gotta be a joke?
I was trying to be patient and give these ideas serious thought but the more I think about this- this gotta be a hoax
Anyway I promise you those gimped little recons would get hunted down all it takes just one anti-stealth class to show up and given the way people hate stealth types I'm sure they'll be plenty of hunting parties. And because they cant attack while stealthed and cant attack when they unstealth their sitting ducks. You're trapped by your own flawed logic you just created the gimpiest class I've ever heard of lmao
Let's review this mess (I'm going to summarize this entire thread):
1) By your own admission, you said WAR should have an anti-stealth class (like shadowbane)
2) This gimped class has to wait 1 minute to stealth
3) This class cant attack anyone while stealthed
4) This gimped class has to wait a whole 30 seconds after he leaves stealth to attack.
When we add up all this stuff together we get the most gimped class in MMO history. He's supposed to be a recon but hes totally defenseless lol. His only prayer is that no scouts are around, the terrain is huge, etc. There is no point in implementing such a gimped class he would get murdered. It's not even worth considering
First you say stealth is too overpowering, now you stay stealthers are the most gimped class ever. Stop contradicticting yourself. You aren't even trying to find a middle ground. You are just trying to be obnoxious.
First you say stealth is too overpowering, now you stay stealthers are the most gimped class ever. Stop contradicticting yourself. You aren't even trying to find a middle ground. You are just trying to be obnoxious.
First off I assumed we were talking about the traditional rogue class. At least they make sense. I had no idea we were talking about gimped recons that cant even defend themselves lol I'm serious thats a horrible, terrible, and gimped class period. This has just gotta be a hoax there is no way anyone would roll such a gimped class if they're that nutty they gonna cancel their subscription first time they get ganked by a scouting party lol. They cant even freakin defend themselves gimmie a break. You made it a tactical error for them to use Stealth as a matter of fact. Better off just hiding behind bushes and trees at least then you can fight back lol. you literally make it their death sentence for them to use stealth
I had no idea you were absolutely serious about that gimped rogue class that guy joked about. honestly he was either joking or just idly posted that idea but for some reason you latched onto it like gold. I seriously assumed you were trying to at least make it so hide would just automatically reapply. I thought to myself surely he is not talking about that gimped recon that guy posted? But you are I just cant believe it get real that's a messed up idea
Learn how to play out in the open, watch some PvP films, and get rid of the thought of playing pvp easy mode.
Prepare for WAR
Hm, this guy made an interesting post but unfortunately left out a critical fact. A high level druid can surely murder a lowbie just any other high lvl ganker. To make matters worse, the druid can stealth and just resume the bloodshed my friend used to camp lowbies all day long and once they called in their high lvl buddies he'd just hide, wait til they got bored and left, and camp them all over again lol
One of the worst ganker combos is rogue + druid (even attacking even level victims). Remember, as you know but left out, stealthers love to stick together. They dont work as efficiently with any other types but stealthers. So if the rogue takes damage guess what? The druid just heals him. Its stunlock + insane druid buffs + heals. I've been on the receiving end of this crazy duo and when we brought in a scout (warlock or hunter) we'd never find them. They'd see us from a mile away but we cant see them because our detection radius was way smaller
People complain about the rogues cause thats the guy that dealt the final blow in most cases. But yeah rogue + druid is insane combo. I've teamed with them plenty of times myself when i used to play WoW. I was bait on my shaman since I could instaheal. Would lure our victims into a false sense of security and uncloak any rogues they might have had while my friends would suddenly unstealthed, heal me to full, and the bloodshed would begin. was fun, but way too easy. but we used it because it was dirt easy and we loved to gank. Our whole guild was dedicated towards making ppl lives miserable.
You guys are being absurd. Stealth is a ganking class? There was no ganking in DAOC. If you were in a PvP zone, you knew you could face members of opposing realms. Stealthers were deadly if they got the jump on you, as they should be, which ultimately led to people GROUPING. Stealthers without a buffbot were also dead meat if they were ever discovered. Look at WoW battlegrounds in comparrison to DAOC, no one groups. There is zero teamwork. Stop painting stealthers as something they were not.
That said, they don't really fit into the Warhammer Universe. Stealthers are also almost impossible to ballance as well, usually being either one of the weakest or strongest classes. Hopefully they get added in an expansion in the future, because Stealth Wars in DAOC were alot of fun.
Finally, to those who don't like being ganked, it might be time to look forward to a different game. It's a PvP game, everyone gets jumped, everyone gets killed, ganked and spit on. If it bothers you now, it's because it hasn't happened enough to you already.
The point was that there simply is no iteration of stealth which can be confined to the single only acceptable use of invisibility: travel. There is no means or level of refinement, no amount of restrictions or counters which will result necessarily in a game which has stealth being necessarily fair on a consistent basis to those on the receiving end. It just can't be done in any game to be developed in a reasonable time for a reasonable budget. I regret that the most adamant proponents of stealth have evaded this issue by just stating their conclusions without any coherent rationales.
The weight of the information now available, from the bulk of games out there that have utilized a stealth mechanic, is that, even if the mechanic is not unbalancing on its face, it is one that is consistently prone to abuse, and one which can be under any set of restrictions very easily made into a balance problem.
You can put on a million timers and timer conditionals, dozens of countering mechanics and classes, and a litany of situational barriers, and in the end, no matter how you approach stealth, you end up creating a stealth metagame. If we give the stealthers this, then we must give the counter-stealthers this, which means for balance sake we must do this, which means this and this, except for this, which we have to balance against this. It's a design nightmare. I'll be more than happy to concede that in some great visionary paradise of gaming, there may, indeed, be a way to implement a stealth system which can be universally balanced against everything else in the game. But the cost of creating that machine is catastrophic in terms of time, design resources, and funding, and I applaud Mythic in seeing these problems and addressing them in the best way possible: No invisibility.
Peace and safety.
Hm, this guy made an interesting post but unfortunately left out a critical fact. A high level druid can surely murder a lowbie just any other high lvl ganker. To make matters worse, the druid can stealth and just resume the bloodshed my friend used to camp lowbies all day long and once they called in their high lvl buddies he'd just hide, wait til they got bored and left, and camp them all over again lol
One of the worst ganker combos is rogue + druid (even attacking even level victims). Remember, as you know but left out, stealthers love to stick together. They dont work as efficiently with any other types but stealthers. So if the rogue takes damage guess what? The druid just heals him. Its stunlock + insane druid buffs + heals. I've been on the receiving end of this crazy duo and when we brought in a scout (warlock or hunter) we'd never find them. They'd see us from a mile away but we cant see them because our detection radius was way smaller
People complain about the rogues cause thats the guy that dealt the final blow in most cases. But yeah rogue + druid is insane combo. I've teamed with them plenty of times myself when i used to play WoW. I was bait on my shaman since I could instaheal. Would lure our victims into a false sense of security and uncloak any rogues they might have had while my friends would suddenly unstealthed, heal me to full, and the bloodshed would begin. was fun, but way too easy. but we used it because it was dirt easy and we loved to gank. Our whole guild was dedicated towards making ppl lives miserable.
Druids can learn a finishing skill at level 64 it hink that allows them to stunlock targets as well.They can stun you for up to 7 seconds if you have 5 combo points on you.
Its not a "proper" stunlock and its not even as close as good any a rogue
but it give me more than enough time to shap into caster, heal full bar, back into cat and apply a mangle+shred combo.
So yeah.. Feral and Rogues ftw
And anyway this topic is more than argued about.
Sorry anyway
More like World of Roguecraft
And yup, you are right thetank.
Does "Invisibility" really have to mean stealth? When saying invisibility they may not mean stealth. It's a slight possibility that "rogues" will get some spell equal to stealth, just not totally invisible, however it doesn't seem likely.
Stealth=total invisibility, maybe not... Maybe we will get stealth, but u won't be totally invisible.
Did you guys happen to see one game played (probably High Elves against Orcs) and felt like that somehow gave you some kind of expertise to go on a forum and make things up off the top of your heads?
Skaven, Dark Elves, and Wood Elves all have units that use game mechanics that are very similar to the way stealth works in MMOs...and this is after a revamp of the rules that eliminated at least 40% of the existing units from the previous ruleset. You, as the player, can see exactly where said units are, but they at times become effectively invisible to your units on the table-top...and that's not stealth how?
It's not like stealth classes are some nigh-unstoppable force in the world of MMOs: they usually get off 1 gank (2 if they're lucky) and then get killed by a group of enemies. What's the big deal?
...And I wish someone had just made a thread to flame rogues instead of having people post inane, inconsequent posts about how rogues are for newbs and cowards on this thread and adding all of that filler between posts where people said constructive things. An argument can be made as to why ANY class is for "n00bs" and/or pansies.
Watch:
"Hunters/Rangers and Casters are for n00bs because they use ranged attacks and generally have pets that keep other toons away from them."
"Tanks are for n00bs because they hide behind heavier armor than everybody else."
Funny how so many of the people on here complaining about the annoying 13 year-old WoW players have the same maturity-level and openly display it...
Achiever 60.00%
Explorer 33.33%
Killer 80.00%
Socializer 26.67%
According to this survey, I'm an item-whoring ganker. I guess I should have stuck with WoW then...lmao.
Being able to pop out of nowhere and kill your opponent when he/she only has 1 hp left is cheap as hell.