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Why This game will be as successful as SKYRIM and past ES games.

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  • hammarushammarus Member UncommonPosts: 196
    Originally posted by collekt
    Why do people keep hammering away with comments about ESO not being exactly like Skyrim and such? I just don't understand the logic. Just because it's an Elder Scrolls game doesn't mean it needs to be exactly like the other single player games. It means that it's set in the same universe, using the same lore, etc. It's like comparing Warcraft 3 to WoW. Are they both Warcraft games? Yes. Are they both very similar in terms of gameplay? No, and to expect that from games of different genres is downright retarded. RPG is not the same as MMORPG. Get over it.

    People, such as myself "hammer" away at it because that IS what we want. You know the fans, those that play ES games.  Its like craving chocolate ice cream and getting a saltine cracker instead.

  • NephaeriusNephaerius Member UncommonPosts: 1,671
    OP just wanted to point out how you use all the hours put into Skyrim as evidence supporting success for ESO.  Last time I checked though none of those people had to pay a sub in order to play.  That dude who put in 4k hours may have felt quite differently if he had to pay monthly in order to play (or he might not).  There's so many holes in a comparison of Skyrim to ESO that it's pointless.  All you can really say is some people who like ES and Skyrim will try and enjoy the MMO.  Outside of that it's all poor speculation at best.

    Steam: Neph

  • MikePaladinMikePaladin Member UncommonPosts: 592
    Zenimax just ruined a great title maybe if Bethesda with Morrowind lead director would have worked on it  maybe than it could bring what people wanted a real sandbox...
  • haibanehaibane Member Posts: 178

    Putting skyrim and ESO in the same sentence is a total mistake, it'd be like saying Star Citizen would make a lot of sales because of GTA V or something similar.

    A very similar comparison would be to say "SW : TOR will be so successful cuz KOTOR rocked", we all know how it ended and ESO goes directly the same way.

    Open beta is starting soon, they are giving a key about to everyone and their dog to week-end betas, based on this, people will be able to judge from themelves if they want to put 15$ a month on this thing.

     

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  • BadOrbBadOrb Member UncommonPosts: 791
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
     how many console gamers will be wanting to give $15 a month to play TESO?

    i agree

    Well you are both incorrect as was Jean-Luc a page or so ago saying a small player base for SWTOR , when 1 million log in per month.

    I played console MMO's for just under ten years and yes those 3 MMO's cost $15 a month. Also how long has that Final Fantasy game been on console/s now is it like 14 years or so with a subb no less.

    In other words , console gamers are screaming for more MMO's on their machines.

    Cheers,

    BadOrb.

    PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
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  • fistormfistorm Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Originally posted by Nephaerius
    OP just wanted to point out how you use all the hours put into Skyrim as evidence supporting success for ESO.  Last time I checked though none of those people had to pay a sub in order to play.  That dude who put in 4k hours may have felt quite differently if he had to pay monthly in order to play (or he might not).  There's so many holes in a comparison of Skyrim to ESO that it's pointless.  All you can really say is some people who like ES and Skyrim will try and enjoy the MMO.  Outside of that it's all poor speculation at best.

    You have to remember that they will be UPDATING the MMO, to give NEW CONTENT and on top of it, the most important feature your paying for,  is to SHARE IT with OTHER FANS of ES Games like SKYRIM and PAST ES games. 

     

    Theres a reason they are making this, a lot of SKYRIM players attempted to make SKYRIM ONLINE so they could enjoy this feature and if you ask all those people if its worth it to have a SKYRIM ONLINE made, they would tell you, its definatly worth the sub, I know I can.

  • Arkade99Arkade99 Member RarePosts: 538
    Originally posted by hammarus
    Originally posted by collekt
    Why do people keep hammering away with comments about ESO not being exactly like Skyrim and such? I just don't understand the logic. Just because it's an Elder Scrolls game doesn't mean it needs to be exactly like the other single player games. It means that it's set in the same universe, using the same lore, etc. It's like comparing Warcraft 3 to WoW. Are they both Warcraft games? Yes. Are they both very similar in terms of gameplay? No, and to expect that from games of different genres is downright retarded. RPG is not the same as MMORPG. Get over it.

    People, such as myself "hammer" away at it because that IS what we want. You know the fans, those that play ES games.  Its like craving chocolate ice cream and getting a saltine cracker instead.

    So, what exactly were you expecting then? Single player MMO? The same quality of graphics?

  • fistormfistorm Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Originally posted by Arkade99
    Originally posted by hammarus
    Originally posted by collekt
    Why do people keep hammering away with comments about ESO not being exactly like Skyrim and such? I just don't understand the logic. Just because it's an Elder Scrolls game doesn't mean it needs to be exactly like the other single player games. It means that it's set in the same universe, using the same lore, etc. It's like comparing Warcraft 3 to WoW. Are they both Warcraft games? Yes. Are they both very similar in terms of gameplay? No, and to expect that from games of different genres is downright retarded. RPG is not the same as MMORPG. Get over it.

    People, such as myself "hammer" away at it because that IS what we want. You know the fans, those that play ES games.  Its like craving chocolate ice cream and getting a saltine cracker instead.

    So, what exactly were you expecting then? Single player MMO? The same quality of graphics?

    Single player MMO has a term, its called solo playing, and they even say you can do this, even in ADVENTURE ZONES at 50+, or you can join friends its up to you.

     

    http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en/media/videos/411  Minute 6:54

     

    The video itself shows it to be like SKYRIM and its graphics, you might want to change youtube settings off default if that's what your watching it at. its only 360p, and even then it only goes up to 720p.

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Member UncommonPosts: 368
    Originally posted by fistorm

    Dev video Minute 5:36  Proves that ESO WILL BE a SANDBOX, being able to do what you when you want and feel like it... isn't that the true definition of SANDBOX?

    http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en/media/videos/411

    LOL. Oh fisty...

    ESO is about as much a Sandbox MMO as your head is a Pumpkin.

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

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  • MargulisMargulis Member CommonPosts: 1,614
    If you can let go of your expectations that it has to be exactly like Skyrim and 100% PvE focused you'll likely really enjoy yourself.  High quality game.  A few things need work but it it's shaping up nicely.  Try playing it with an open mind and acceptance for what it is instead of going in with resentment, anger, or unrealistic expectations and like I said, will likely enjoy yourself.
  • NephaeriusNephaerius Member UncommonPosts: 1,671
    Originally posted by fistorm
    Originally posted by Nephaerius
    OP just wanted to point out how you use all the hours put into Skyrim as evidence supporting success for ESO.  Last time I checked though none of those people had to pay a sub in order to play.  That dude who put in 4k hours may have felt quite differently if he had to pay monthly in order to play (or he might not).  There's so many holes in a comparison of Skyrim to ESO that it's pointless.  All you can really say is some people who like ES and Skyrim will try and enjoy the MMO.  Outside of that it's all poor speculation at best.

    You have to remember that they will be UPDATING the MMO, to give NEW CONTENT and on top of it, the most important feature your paying for,  is to SHARE IT with OTHER FANS of ES Games like SKYRIM and PAST ES games. 

     

    Theres a reason they are making this, a lot of SKYRIM players attempted to make SKYRIM ONLINE so they could enjoy this feature and if you ask all those people if its worth it to have a SKYRIM ONLINE made, they would tell you, its definatly worth the sub, I know I can.

     LOL you mean the sub that you pay with the cash shop on top and then the content you'll have to pay for separately as well?  Your sub pays for you to rent access to the game and for them to pay for servers.  Actual development definitely comes out of those dollars as well but as with most games with subs you'll pay a second time to get it.

    Steam: Neph

  • JJ82JJ82 Member UncommonPosts: 1,258
    Originally posted by fistorm

    You have to remember that they will be UPDATING the MMO, to give NEW CONTENT and on top of it, the most important feature your paying for,  is to SHARE IT with OTHER FANS of ES Games like SKYRIM and PAST ES games. 

    Theres a reason they are making this, a lot of SKYRIM players attempted to make SKYRIM ONLINE so they could enjoy this feature and if you ask all those people if its worth it to have a SKYRIM ONLINE made, they would tell you, its definatly worth the sub, I know I can.

     Skyrim like the previous 2 TES games get NEW CONTENT and UPDATES already.......and an endless supply of it from modders that SHARE IT with OTHER FANS of TES games. Without having to pay a monthly fee and its an ACTUAL TES game and not a game using the TES NAME.

    And yes, people want SKYRIM ONLINE. Not DAOC 2 using the TES NAME ONLINE.

    This game is not offering the gameplay, the game style, the quality story, the freedom....what is it offering to those fans wanting a TES game online? just names of places, people and slight graphics that are a like?

    I don't recall buying Skyrim or any other TES game for graphics, nor for names of people and places.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
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  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    Originally posted by Nephaerius
    Originally posted by fistorm
    Originally posted by Nephaerius
    OP just wanted to point out how you use all the hours put into Skyrim as evidence supporting success for ESO.  Last time I checked though none of those people had to pay a sub in order to play.  That dude who put in 4k hours may have felt quite differently if he had to pay monthly in order to play (or he might not).  There's so many holes in a comparison of Skyrim to ESO that it's pointless.  All you can really say is some people who like ES and Skyrim will try and enjoy the MMO.  Outside of that it's all poor speculation at best.

    You have to remember that they will be UPDATING the MMO, to give NEW CONTENT and on top of it, the most important feature your paying for,  is to SHARE IT with OTHER FANS of ES Games like SKYRIM and PAST ES games. 

     

    Theres a reason they are making this, a lot of SKYRIM players attempted to make SKYRIM ONLINE so they could enjoy this feature and if you ask all those people if its worth it to have a SKYRIM ONLINE made, they would tell you, its definatly worth the sub, I know I can.

     LOL you mean the sub that you pay with the cash shop on top and then the content you'll have to pay for separately as well?  Your sub pays for you to rent access to the game and for them to pay for servers.  Actual development definitely comes out of those dollars as well but as with most games with subs you'll pay a second time to get it.

    I think ESO shop will be like blizzards. No cash to ingame currency conversion. They made mention of name changes and such.

  • fistormfistorm Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by fistorm

    You have to remember that they will be UPDATING the MMO, to give NEW CONTENT and on top of it, the most important feature your paying for,  is to SHARE IT with OTHER FANS of ES Games like SKYRIM and PAST ES games. 

    Theres a reason they are making this, a lot of SKYRIM players attempted to make SKYRIM ONLINE so they could enjoy this feature and if you ask all those people if its worth it to have a SKYRIM ONLINE made, they would tell you, its definatly worth the sub, I know I can.

     Skyrim like the previous 2 TES games get NEW CONTENT and UPDATES already.......and an endless supply of it from modders that SHARE IT with OTHER FANS of TES games. Without having to pay a monthly fee and its an ACTUAL TES game and not a game using the TES NAME.

    And yes, people want SKYRIM ONLINE. Not DAOC 2 using the TES NAME ONLINE.

    This game is not offering the gameplay, the game style, the quality story, the freedom....what is it offering to those fans wanting a TES game online? just names of places, people and slight graphics that are a like?

    I don't recall buying Skyrim or any other TES game for graphics, nor for names of people and places.

    I just have to direct you to all the official footage on the game. 

     

    But the fact that so many people anticipate this game and want to play it world wide by the millions, I can honestly say that Skyrim Fans had to do a lot with that, and so did past ES games.   You wouldn't even see anywhere close to the support for this game if all of them were just mmo fans.   Its even so anticipated by gamers that its even showing up on all these lists as the most anticipated game of 2014!!  That's saying a lot for SKYRIM fans supporting the game.

    http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/01/06/eso-hits-most-anticipated-lists-for-2014

    you'll be shocked to see even FORBES is on the list as saying it as one of the best rpg game of 2014 AND BEYOND.

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Member UncommonPosts: 368
    Originally posted by fistorm
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by fistorm

    You have to remember that they will be UPDATING the MMO, to give NEW CONTENT and on top of it, the most important feature your paying for,  is to SHARE IT with OTHER FANS of ES Games like SKYRIM and PAST ES games. 

    Theres a reason they are making this, a lot of SKYRIM players attempted to make SKYRIM ONLINE so they could enjoy this feature and if you ask all those people if its worth it to have a SKYRIM ONLINE made, they would tell you, its definatly worth the sub, I know I can.

     Skyrim like the previous 2 TES games get NEW CONTENT and UPDATES already.......and an endless supply of it from modders that SHARE IT with OTHER FANS of TES games. Without having to pay a monthly fee and its an ACTUAL TES game and not a game using the TES NAME.

    And yes, people want SKYRIM ONLINE. Not DAOC 2 using the TES NAME ONLINE.

    This game is not offering the gameplay, the game style, the quality story, the freedom....what is it offering to those fans wanting a TES game online? just names of places, people and slight graphics that are a like?

    I don't recall buying Skyrim or any other TES game for graphics, nor for names of people and places.

    I just have to direct you to all the official footage on the game. 

     

    But the fact that so many people anticipate this game and want to play it world wide by the millions, I can honestly say that Skyrim Fans had to do a lot with that, and so did past ES games.   You wouldn't even see anywhere close to the support for this game if all of them were just mmo fans.   Its even so anticipated by gamers that its even showing up on all these lists as the most anticipated game of 2014!!  That's saying a lot for SKYRIM fans supporting the game.

    http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/01/06/eso-hits-most-anticipated-lists-for-2014

    you'll be shocked to see even FORBES is on the list as saying it as one of the best rpg game of 2014 AND BEYOND.

    I am Shocked!

    Other than EQ:N and Wildstar that "Best in 2014" list is a freaking joke

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

    Games Played: Too Many

  • BelgaraathBelgaraath Member UncommonPosts: 3,205
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
    Originally posted by fistorm
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by fistorm

    You have to remember that they will be UPDATING the MMO, to give NEW CONTENT and on top of it, the most important feature your paying for,  is to SHARE IT with OTHER FANS of ES Games like SKYRIM and PAST ES games. 

    Theres a reason they are making this, a lot of SKYRIM players attempted to make SKYRIM ONLINE so they could enjoy this feature and if you ask all those people if its worth it to have a SKYRIM ONLINE made, they would tell you, its definatly worth the sub, I know I can.

     Skyrim like the previous 2 TES games get NEW CONTENT and UPDATES already.......and an endless supply of it from modders that SHARE IT with OTHER FANS of TES games. Without having to pay a monthly fee and its an ACTUAL TES game and not a game using the TES NAME.

    And yes, people want SKYRIM ONLINE. Not DAOC 2 using the TES NAME ONLINE.

    This game is not offering the gameplay, the game style, the quality story, the freedom....what is it offering to those fans wanting a TES game online? just names of places, people and slight graphics that are a like?

    I don't recall buying Skyrim or any other TES game for graphics, nor for names of people and places.

    I just have to direct you to all the official footage on the game. 

     

    But the fact that so many people anticipate this game and want to play it world wide by the millions, I can honestly say that Skyrim Fans had to do a lot with that, and so did past ES games.   You wouldn't even see anywhere close to the support for this game if all of them were just mmo fans.   Its even so anticipated by gamers that its even showing up on all these lists as the most anticipated game of 2014!!  That's saying a lot for SKYRIM fans supporting the game.

    http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/01/06/eso-hits-most-anticipated-lists-for-2014

    you'll be shocked to see even FORBES is on the list as saying it as one of the best rpg game of 2014 AND BEYOND.

    I am Shocked!

    Other than EQ:N and Wildstar that "Best in 2014" list is a freaking joke

    so any list that doesn't conform to your idea of what is good and bad is a joke? Where's the logic in that? (that's a rhetorical question).

    There Is Always Hope!

  • Entropy14Entropy14 Member UncommonPosts: 675
    I don't doubt that this game will sell a boaload of boxes, and this game will make them millions.   But I really doubt this game will hold its playerbase for any period of time, the combat looks horrid , this game looks boring as hell to play .  But that's just my opinion ,  I had high hopes for this game early on, but the more videos I see, the more I know I wont be buying this game.
  • fistormfistorm Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by fistorm

    I just have to direct you to all the official footage on the game. 

    But the fact that so many people anticipate this game and want to play it world wide by the millions, I can honestly say that Skyrim Fans had to do a lot with that, and so did past ES games.   You wouldn't even see anywhere close to the support for this game if all of them were just mmo fans.   Its even so anticipated by gamers that its even showing up on all these lists as the most anticipated game of 2014!!  That's saying a lot for SKYRIM fans supporting the game.

    http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/01/06/eso-hits-most-anticipated-lists-for-2014

    you'll be shocked to see even FORBES is on the list as saying it as one of the best rpg game of 2014 AND BEYOND.

    [mod edit]

    I'm sry if you see it that way, but I was making a valid point on how SKYRIM players are supporting the game or it wouldn't be even this close to popular.    Also I don't think I advertise the game as much as the game advertises itself,  one person cannot make this game what it is and be on every anticipated lists of 2014, I think most people look at the game, all of the game data, dev videos released (set to max settings), see what all the devs tell us, look at the history of the company and game, and then give it an honest fair shake and then roll with it. Like what I'm doing.

     

  • dotdotdashdotdotdash Member UncommonPosts: 488

    The idea that you could compare the game play of TESO to the game play of Skyrim or Oblivion is fatuous.

    Basically Zenimax Online took the standard themepark MMO formula and attempted to wrap the TES franchise around it as best they could. From the combat system to itemisation, the game is first and foremost an MMORPG, and only a TES game as a secondary concern. You could remove all of the lore from the game, change the UI slightly, and easily turn it into "generic MMORPG number X". The same sentiment of course applied to SWTOR and WAR before it, but the lesson seems to be missed by the "creative leads" behind the genre at the moment (who are almost all dinosaurs in both a literal and metaphoric sense).

    TESO won't fail, in the same way SWTOR hasn't failed. That doesn't mean it will succeed however. It will receive the same hype-fueled reception as SWTOR did, and will then dwindle and fall from the attention of gamers in general quite quickly.

    Obviously the truth of the matter will escape those amongst us who are still rabidly delusional about these things.

  • Jimmy562Jimmy562 Member UncommonPosts: 1,158
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    The idea that you could compare the game play of TESO to the game play of Skyrim or Oblivion is fatuous.

    Basically Zenimax Online took the standard themepark MMO formula and attempted to wrap the TES franchise around it as best they could. From the combat system to itemisation, the game is first and foremost an MMORPG, and only a TES game as a secondary concern. You could remove all of the lore from the game, change the UI slightly, and easily turn it into "generic MMORPG number X". The same sentiment of course applied to SWTOR and WAR before it, but the lesson seems to be missed by the "creative leads" behind the genre at the moment (who are almost all dinosaurs in both a literal and metaphoric sense).

    TESO won't fail, in the same way SWTOR hasn't failed. That doesn't mean it will succeed however. It will receive the same hype-fueled reception as SWTOR did, and will then dwindle and fall from the attention of gamers in general quite quickly.

    Obviously the truth of the matter will escape those amongst us who are still rabidly delusional about these things.

    TESO is NOT a standard themepark. 

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Member UncommonPosts: 368
    Originally posted by Jimmy562
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    The idea that you could compare the game play of TESO to the game play of Skyrim or Oblivion is fatuous.

    Basically Zenimax Online took the standard themepark MMO formula and attempted to wrap the TES franchise around it as best they could. From the combat system to itemisation, the game is first and foremost an MMORPG, and only a TES game as a secondary concern. You could remove all of the lore from the game, change the UI slightly, and easily turn it into "generic MMORPG number X". The same sentiment of course applied to SWTOR and WAR before it, but the lesson seems to be missed by the "creative leads" behind the genre at the moment (who are almost all dinosaurs in both a literal and metaphoric sense).

    TESO won't fail, in the same way SWTOR hasn't failed. That doesn't mean it will succeed however. It will receive the same hype-fueled reception as SWTOR did, and will then dwindle and fall from the attention of gamers in general quite quickly.

    Obviously the truth of the matter will escape those amongst us who are still rabidly delusional about these things.

    TESO is NOT a standard themepark. 

    When it comes right down to it. Yes it is a standard Themepark.

    Its just a bit better at hiding it.

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

    Games Played: Too Many

  • collektcollekt Member UncommonPosts: 328
    Originally posted by hammarus
    Originally posted by collekt
    Why do people keep hammering away with comments about ESO not being exactly like Skyrim and such? I just don't understand the logic. Just because it's an Elder Scrolls game doesn't mean it needs to be exactly like the other single player games. It means that it's set in the same universe, using the same lore, etc. It's like comparing Warcraft 3 to WoW. Are they both Warcraft games? Yes. Are they both very similar in terms of gameplay? No, and to expect that from games of different genres is downright retarded. RPG is not the same as MMORPG. Get over it.

    People, such as myself "hammer" away at it because that IS what we want. You know the fans, those that play ES games.  Its like craving chocolate ice cream and getting a saltine cracker instead.

    Just because you want it doesn't make it any more viable or realistic. If you're expecting a game that is exactly like a single player MMO but with other real people in it, then you are just setting yourself up for disappointment. $1 million IS what I want, but that doesn't mean I should expect to receive it. Open your eyes to the real world and stop living in the fantasy one. Or, at least stop trying to hate on this game because it isn't that. It just doesn't make any sense.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
     

    When it comes right down to it. Yes it is a standard Themepark.

    Its just a bit better at hiding it.

    Depends on how you define standard now, doesn't it?  The real problem with your statement is that anyone in a position to confirm or contradict what you are saying from a place of actual knowledge is legally bound to not do so.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,698
    Originally posted by Jimmy562
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    The idea that you could compare the game play of TESO to the game play of Skyrim or Oblivion is fatuous.

    Basically Zenimax Online took the standard themepark MMO formula and attempted to wrap the TES franchise around it as best they could. From the combat system to itemisation, the game is first and foremost an MMORPG, and only a TES game as a secondary concern. You could remove all of the lore from the game, change the UI slightly, and easily turn it into "generic MMORPG number X". The same sentiment of course applied to SWTOR and WAR before it, but the lesson seems to be missed by the "creative leads" behind the genre at the moment (who are almost all dinosaurs in both a literal and metaphoric sense).

    TESO won't fail, in the same way SWTOR hasn't failed. That doesn't mean it will succeed however. It will receive the same hype-fueled reception as SWTOR did, and will then dwindle and fall from the attention of gamers in general quite quickly.

    Obviously the truth of the matter will escape those amongst us who are still rabidly delusional about these things.

    TESO is NOT a standard themepark. 

    Indeed. I hope the NDA drops soon so people who are calling ESO just another themepark can finally see why they are wrong.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Member Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by SlyLoK
     

    Indeed. I hope the NDA drops soon so people who are calling ESO just another themepark can finally see why they are wrong.

    I have a prediction.  Many of those who don't like the game will continue to claim it is a standard themepark, no matter what the evidence says when it becomes available, because they base their arguments on emotional reactions instead of objective facts.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

This discussion has been closed.