Originally posted by Robokapp What I want to know from the proponents of "action" combat is what a medium scale skirmish like 20 v 20 looks like in their mind.
I see target I attempt to hit target.
How tactiful!
I look around to be aware of the situation? If if a big old armor bound tank is in front of my target I try to take a different angle?
20v20 skirmishes are usually a pvp thing. I'm not sure I understand your question.
Seems usually disorganised chaos with no tactics. I have seen the Black Desert MMO videos and it looks like Street Fighter in 3D. Not my thing I guess. If PVP involved strategy I might enjoy.
Because i have to see a good MMORPG thats isnot based on tab targeting.
The guys developing no tab target games worry too much about that one aspect of the game and forget to create a believable MMORPG.
If you forget the MMORPG part whats is left ? yep a FPS Shooter where you have all the gear and the attributes you need to carry about.
The competion is then the real FP shooter which you dont need to carry about that ..guesss who wins.
So first you need to flesh out the MMORPG world and make all the content and the MMORPG server features and then you worry about tab target in client or not, then maybe one day we will see the first MMORPG that gets that right.
I like them all, tab targeting, action, even turn based.
What I'd hate to see is every new MMO adopting the action style combat.
Yep, they all have advantages and disadvantages and reasons people prefer one or the other. I like Tab target, I don't really like precise aiming as part of the combat, but that's me. I can understand if people, especially those that play fps, would maybe enjoy this aspect.
Turn based, involve the most strategy with no twitch based/reaction time combat. Tab Target is sort of in between action/turn based.
Indeed. TB combat has to be the most challenging IMO. Real time combat tends to be easier on the brain as it's built around the fact you have to think fast.
And that's why if I want to challenge the old noggin I'd easily pick a TBS game. Aiming/dodging is very primitive thinking in gaming.
In the real world it is challenging, archery for example.
And that's why I would hate RPG combat to go more action based.
20v20 skirmishes are usually a pvp thing. I'm not sure I understand your question.
Seems usually disorganised chaos with no tactics. I have seen the Black Desert MMO videos and it looks like Street Fighter in 3D. Not my thing I guess. If PVP involved strategy I might enjoy.
Idk about BD, but pvp in general is at a much faster pace. Anticipation is key. To someone who has only been dealing with quest mobs or even raids (although faster) large scale combat may look like a blur. Not only are you anticipating your 20 opponents are aswell.
In the recent years where action combat has taken more and more hold in the new games coming, all I keep seeing is the same "The combat in this game sucks" for games that actually implement working action combat.
Whether its TSW, GW2, WS, Tera or a bunch of other MMORPGs, if you scim through the comments, you always find that a major part of the people leaving the games to play WoD or Final Fantasy instead because "the combat suck"
So why do people prefer tab-targetting? I´m personally a huge fan of action-combat and I believe that games like Tera and WS have made perfect action combat to their respective games, so Im unable to put my mind to why tab-targetting should be preferred. Would anyone dare to explain why?
And I know a lot of comments will be like "Because it was poor implement" or "Not well designed", but to be fair, I dont think its possible to make better action combat than what the 2 above mentioned games have made.
So please, enlighten me. Whats the catch of tab-targetting?
Honestly, it's because gamers are notoriously conservative in their ways. Our actions (collectively) have made us known for saying we want one thing (new this / that, change, innovation) and actually doing another (playing the same old thing).
Many of the first MMOs people played were tab-target games. Which is why a lot of people seem stuck on the idea that it's superior. They got comfortable w/ that system first, and so they assume that it's superior. It's not limited to tab-targetting either. We see this with mentalities about endgame, raiding, more skills vs. less skills, sandbox vs. themepark, deathpenalties vs. non, etc. etc. etc. The list is a long one indeed.
This also isn't limited to MMOs, but for some reason the problem is a lot more dire when it comes to this genre.
Originally posted by Robokapp What I want to know from the proponents of "action" combat is what a medium scale skirmish like 20 v 20 looks like in their mind.
The Mechanized Skirmish zone of Infantry had 50 on 50 action combat with no tab targeting. There were six flags to capture spread out across the zone, which naturally spread players out. It worked pretty well. That's PVP, though.
-----
There are a lot of problems with large scale PVE combat, none of which are completely intractable. But none of the main ones have anything to do with targeting. Questions like "where does the big group of players come from?" and "how do we make individual players meaningfully affect a group outcome?" have are not questions of targeting.
Maybe because every "action" mmo I tried felt shallow and catered towards people 20 years younger than me.
So far, in my opinion, ridicule targeting mmos have been shallow, bunny hoping, button smashers with little to no depth. At least with my tab target mmos I get more than a handful of skills.
There is a place in gaming for twitchy mmos, but it is obvious they are not as popular. As long as they stay in their corner, I don't mind them being made, in fact I think they should be for the fans of those kind of games. Just don't be upset that I don't want to play your bunny hop-fest.
Also, hacking is an big issue with games that require aiming.
I like them all, tab targeting, action, even turn based.
What I'd hate to see is every new MMO adopting the action style combat.
If you're really saying that you'd hate to see every new MMO adopting the same style of combat, not just action in particular, then I'll agree. Give me something interesting that I haven't played before, not just the 38th knock-off of something that was popular several years ago.
I have played both styles quite a bit and I still prefer the traditional way..
1. It isnt exhaustive. I can play for hours if I wanted. With action combat I am normally tired and feel like quitting before an hour is up.
2. I feel the traditional way offers more skill variety , strategy and much better group play. What I have experienced with action combat is few skills , lots of jumping or circle strafing and downright horrible group play.. ESO is really the only one I have played that had acceptable group play but not great.
3. I feel that the pace of play is much better.
4. Action MMORPGs seem to forget one thing.. The RPG! Those games sacrifice the RPG just to have flashy combat.
I remember battles needed thought to win.. Having to CC 1 or more enemies before pulling or risking a wipe. With action combat games you just pull them all and bunch them up since every single attack hits multiple enemies and end it in seconds. No thought , no danger just weak.
I like both but sometimes I just don't feel like having to do that much work. You can say it is easy or whatever you want. The fact still remains that rolling, aiming, dodging, and blocking is a lot more work then just pressing tab and 1234.
Tab-Targeting, group based, exploration and farming focused (fun farming that is).
I enjoyed that game, so i joined the MMO train.
Now they keep changing the main features of MMOs. I suddenly feel like playing an action game, without any group interactions, no exploration and farming is only present in the most boring way possible (solo).
Do i really need to explain why i dislike the current trends? The genre changed like 100% in a differend direction. Of corse i am pissed about that. I joined this genre because it was like it was. And now it is something differend.
Other examples:
Dungeon Keeper 1 and 2 rocked. Now go check out Dungeon Keeper Mobile,... everything changed. Try finding happy player.
Final Fantasy, once the best story driven turn based RPG. Now? No story, just action combat, killing dozens of monster in one swing. Try finding happy player.
The Settler, once a beautiful sim with story and chains to build. Latest "sequel"? Uhm... god knows what THAT abomination is. Try finding happy player.
See a pattern here? If you change what a genre is about. You will upset people. You may find new people, sure. But why now just create a new genre for those and let the EXISTING fans get what they enjoyed from the start?
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Other then disability reasons and personal preferences all I read in this thread is things like:
Immersion
Role Playing
Needless skill interaction
It's great for MMO's
Makes you think of a different genre
Running around like a chicken with their heads cut off
I tell you people have no notion of what personal opinions mean. None of the myriad of comments here are remotely true as you can have all them inside the scope of an MMO.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
So please, enlighten me. Whats the catch of tab-targetting?
1. Allows more hotkeys to be used by clicking on them, giving you more non-movement-based options in combat.
2. There are people who just prefer it. There are also people who play turn-based games or MUDs.
3. Usually entertainment comes from "hitting the right spot on the difficulty scale". If a game can make an encounter challengeing/interesting, it might be worthwhile.
4. It can be done in an entertaining way (see: GW2 - you mentioned it as a good example...it has tab-targeting)
And about FFXIV: I think a lot of people play this game mainly due to it's setting, charm, graphics and soundtrack. I know I do.
Other then disability reasons and personal preferences all I read in this thread is things like:
Immersion
Role Playing
Needless skill interaction
It's great for MMO's
Makes you think of a different genre
Running around like a chicken with their heads cut off
I tell you people have no notion of what personal opinions mean. None of the myriad of comments here are remotely true as you can have all them inside the scope of an MMO.
That's what forums are for.....Opinion. Everyone has one. Everyone is different. There is no right answer.
By "tab targeting" I'm guessing you are referring to any targeting where hitting a key will select (next or nearest) target.
There are only two other alternatives I can think of.
First, "click targeting" where you have to use the mouse to click on whatever or wherever you want to attack.
Or "Positional targeting" which is the attack isn't targeted, but rather you just try to make sure that you are facing the right direction and are the right distance away to hit your opponent.
(I'm sure there are official names for these three, but I have no idea what they are.)
So in my case, I don't much care for Positional targeting most of the time as I have trouble converting their invisible ranges and areas into something I can handle easily in their 2d flat displays. Maybe someday we'll all have occulus rifts or the like, and the games will support them, but until then, the visual ques in the games aren't really good enough for me to properly identify something that would be simple in real life.
So we are left with Click targeting and Tab targeting. I rather hate the Click targeting because of it being about as accurate as an ink filled sponge is at dotting the letter i. Sure seems like it should be a lot better, but two things cause problems. One is on screen chaff. I don't care if it's special effects particles, or just a dozen other guys jumping around in front of me. It all tends to interfere with my ability to click on the target I want. Second, the damn hit boxs are often insane in those. More than once I've tried to target an enemy in front of me that I have a clear line of sight to, and the crappy click targeting implementation thinks I either want to select my ally that's 6' off to the side, or maybe the harmless critter that's behind me, or some other inappropriate target.
So that leaves Tab targeting. Sure, I may have to hit it a few times to get it to cycle to the right one, but at least it works.
In the recent years where action combat has taken more and more hold in the new games coming, all I keep seeing is the same "The combat in this game sucks" for games that actually implement working action combat.
Whether its TSW, GW2, WS, Tera or a bunch of other MMORPGs, if you scim through the comments, you always find that a major part of the people leaving the games to play WoD or Final Fantasy instead because "the combat suck"
So why do people prefer tab-targetting? I´m personally a huge fan of action-combat and I believe that games like Tera and WS have made perfect action combat to their respective games, so Im unable to put my mind to why tab-targetting should be preferred. Would anyone dare to explain why?
And I know a lot of comments will be like "Because it was poor implement" or "Not well designed", but to be fair, I dont think its possible to make better action combat than what the 2 above mentioned games have made.
So please, enlighten me. Whats the catch of tab-targetting?
"The combat sucks" is not the reason most people leave Tera or GW2. People that don't like that type of combat either don't play those games or leave very quickly. The main criticism levelled at Tera is that is has boring "grindy" quests; for GW2 I have seen various reasons why some people don't like it, but the combat system in itself is not a major one.
The comments I have seen about people disliking action-type combat are mainly on general forums like this one and mostly from people who started playing mmos when there was only tab-targeting combat. They often give strange reasons like "there is no group play" in action combat type games (perhaps they only played the first few levels of such games and then left?).
As for improving combat in such action-combat type mmos, there is a lot of room for that. There is not much that can be tweaked in a tab-target style system (although GW2 has a great take on tab-targeting), but the sky is the limit with more freeform combat systems. You just have to look at single-player rpg and action games to get an idea of the potential. We could be climbing on big monsters and stabbing them in the eye sometime soon.
Well all i can offer here is my reason why I prefer tab-targeting in MMORPG and its because of a more leisurely play. If I wanna skill intense game that gets my blood boiling i'll play action games like Battlefield or if i want swords I'll play something on the line of Chivalry. I usually play MMORPGs, especialy ones that I invest more time into, for relaxation, socialising and so on and action combat kinda takes the majority of focus away. But then again, I'm a casual player, so people that take games more seriously will probably think this bull.
"The combat sucks" is not the reason most people leave Tera or GW2. People that don't like that type of combat either don't play those games or leave very quickly. The main criticism levelled at Tera is that is has boring "grindy" quests; for GW2 I have seen various reasons why some people don't like it, but the combat system in itself is not a major one.
I quit TERA because I didn't like the combat. The problem is that awkward controls meant that you're fighting a lot more against the game controls than against mobs. That's partially because the control scheme is awkward, and partially because the mobs don't put up much of a fight. Mobs are stupidly easy to kill, as you kill mobs in two hits and they take about 20 to kill you. The only way to get any semblance of a challenge is to either skip a bunch of stuff to go far above your level or else try to solo group content. Both of those have serious play-balance problems because you're trying to do something with them that was never intended.
I'm fine with combat based on interesting strategy, however slow-paced. But games that eschew action in favor of tab targeting usually don't have much in the way of strategy, either. Trinity combat is perhaps one strategy of sorts, but too often it degenerates into exactly the same strategy (the tank tanks, the healer heals, the damage dealers deal damage) in just about every single battle. That's not relying on interesting strategy to make slow combat interesting. That's relying on players being easily distracted by epics even though the combat itself is terrible.
Yeah, you can have strategy points like, kill this first instead of that when it spawns, or move over there at this point in the battle. But you can do that every bit as well with action combat as with slow tab-targeting combat.
I haven't played MMOs in a while, but I feel that tab targeting is better due to the amount of potential characters/creatures on the screen at one time. Tab targeting will allow you to target certain things even if they are behind or right next to something else. It can be difficult to target the proper thing by looking in it's direction alone.
Comments
I look around to be aware of the situation? If if a big old armor bound tank is in front of my target I try to take a different angle?
Seems usually disorganised chaos with no tactics. I have seen the Black Desert MMO videos and it looks like Street Fighter in 3D. Not my thing I guess. If PVP involved strategy I might enjoy.
Because i have to see a good MMORPG thats isnot based on tab targeting.
The guys developing no tab target games worry too much about that one aspect of the game and forget to create a believable MMORPG.
If you forget the MMORPG part whats is left ? yep a FPS Shooter where you have all the gear and the attributes you need to carry about.
The competion is then the real FP shooter which you dont need to carry about that ..guesss who wins.
So first you need to flesh out the MMORPG world and make all the content and the MMORPG server features and then you worry about tab target in client or not, then maybe one day we will see the first MMORPG that gets that right.
Indeed. TB combat has to be the most challenging IMO. Real time combat tends to be easier on the brain as it's built around the fact you have to think fast.
And that's why if I want to challenge the old noggin I'd easily pick a TBS game. Aiming/dodging is very primitive thinking in gaming.
In the real world it is challenging, archery for example.
And that's why I would hate RPG combat to go more action based.
Idk about BD, but pvp in general is at a much faster pace. Anticipation is key. To someone who has only been dealing with quest mobs or even raids (although faster) large scale combat may look like a blur. Not only are you anticipating your 20 opponents are aswell.
Honestly, it's because gamers are notoriously conservative in their ways. Our actions (collectively) have made us known for saying we want one thing (new this / that, change, innovation) and actually doing another (playing the same old thing).
Many of the first MMOs people played were tab-target games. Which is why a lot of people seem stuck on the idea that it's superior. They got comfortable w/ that system first, and so they assume that it's superior. It's not limited to tab-targetting either. We see this with mentalities about endgame, raiding, more skills vs. less skills, sandbox vs. themepark, deathpenalties vs. non, etc. etc. etc. The list is a long one indeed.
This also isn't limited to MMOs, but for some reason the problem is a lot more dire when it comes to this genre.
I do not prefer tab targeting -- I prefer targeting fits the combat action.
I do not just point my sword forward and hope something is in the way. I target a foe and stab at him. That's tab targeting.
Now if I am shooting an Ozi or other cone / line of sight type weapon a tab target might not make sense... thus I wouldn't want it.
If I am throwing a granade or similar spell effect I do not want to tab target -- I want to pick an area and throw towards it.
If I am projecting heat from body -- I do not target at all. I just do.
Actions and target type should go hand in hand -- not one target for everything.
The Mechanized Skirmish zone of Infantry had 50 on 50 action combat with no tab targeting. There were six flags to capture spread out across the zone, which naturally spread players out. It worked pretty well. That's PVP, though.
-----
There are a lot of problems with large scale PVE combat, none of which are completely intractable. But none of the main ones have anything to do with targeting. Questions like "where does the big group of players come from?" and "how do we make individual players meaningfully affect a group outcome?" have are not questions of targeting.
This
If you're really saying that you'd hate to see every new MMO adopting the same style of combat, not just action in particular, then I'll agree. Give me something interesting that I haven't played before, not just the 38th knock-off of something that was popular several years ago.
I have played both styles quite a bit and I still prefer the traditional way..
1. It isnt exhaustive. I can play for hours if I wanted. With action combat I am normally tired and feel like quitting before an hour is up.
2. I feel the traditional way offers more skill variety , strategy and much better group play. What I have experienced with action combat is few skills , lots of jumping or circle strafing and downright horrible group play.. ESO is really the only one I have played that had acceptable group play but not great.
3. I feel that the pace of play is much better.
4. Action MMORPGs seem to forget one thing.. The RPG! Those games sacrifice the RPG just to have flashy combat.
I remember battles needed thought to win.. Having to CC 1 or more enemies before pulling or risking a wipe. With action combat games you just pull them all and bunch them up since every single attack hits multiple enemies and end it in seconds. No thought , no danger just weak.
Pretty simple for me.
My first MMO was:
Tab-Targeting, group based, exploration and farming focused (fun farming that is).
I enjoyed that game, so i joined the MMO train.
Now they keep changing the main features of MMOs. I suddenly feel like playing an action game, without any group interactions, no exploration and farming is only present in the most boring way possible (solo).
Do i really need to explain why i dislike the current trends? The genre changed like 100% in a differend direction. Of corse i am pissed about that. I joined this genre because it was like it was. And now it is something differend.
Other examples:
See a pattern here? If you change what a genre is about. You will upset people. You may find new people, sure. But why now just create a new genre for those and let the EXISTING fans get what they enjoyed from the start?
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
DAoC's combat was horrible and required ZERO skill because of these /stick & /face commands.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Other then disability reasons and personal preferences all I read in this thread is things like:
Immersion
Role Playing
Needless skill interaction
It's great for MMO's
Makes you think of a different genre
Running around like a chicken with their heads cut off
I tell you people have no notion of what personal opinions mean. None of the myriad of comments here are remotely true as you can have all them inside the scope of an MMO.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
And about FFXIV: I think a lot of people play this game mainly due to it's setting, charm, graphics and soundtrack. I know I do.
That's what forums are for.....Opinion. Everyone has one. Everyone is different. There is no right answer.
By "tab targeting" I'm guessing you are referring to any targeting where hitting a key will select (next or nearest) target.
There are only two other alternatives I can think of.
First, "click targeting" where you have to use the mouse to click on whatever or wherever you want to attack.
Or "Positional targeting" which is the attack isn't targeted, but rather you just try to make sure that you are facing the right direction and are the right distance away to hit your opponent.
(I'm sure there are official names for these three, but I have no idea what they are.)
So in my case, I don't much care for Positional targeting most of the time as I have trouble converting their invisible ranges and areas into something I can handle easily in their 2d flat displays. Maybe someday we'll all have occulus rifts or the like, and the games will support them, but until then, the visual ques in the games aren't really good enough for me to properly identify something that would be simple in real life.
So we are left with Click targeting and Tab targeting. I rather hate the Click targeting because of it being about as accurate as an ink filled sponge is at dotting the letter i. Sure seems like it should be a lot better, but two things cause problems. One is on screen chaff. I don't care if it's special effects particles, or just a dozen other guys jumping around in front of me. It all tends to interfere with my ability to click on the target I want. Second, the damn hit boxs are often insane in those. More than once I've tried to target an enemy in front of me that I have a clear line of sight to, and the crappy click targeting implementation thinks I either want to select my ally that's 6' off to the side, or maybe the harmless critter that's behind me, or some other inappropriate target.
So that leaves Tab targeting. Sure, I may have to hit it a few times to get it to cycle to the right one, but at least it works.
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
"The combat sucks" is not the reason most people leave Tera or GW2. People that don't like that type of combat either don't play those games or leave very quickly. The main criticism levelled at Tera is that is has boring "grindy" quests; for GW2 I have seen various reasons why some people don't like it, but the combat system in itself is not a major one.
The comments I have seen about people disliking action-type combat are mainly on general forums like this one and mostly from people who started playing mmos when there was only tab-targeting combat. They often give strange reasons like "there is no group play" in action combat type games (perhaps they only played the first few levels of such games and then left?).
As for improving combat in such action-combat type mmos, there is a lot of room for that. There is not much that can be tweaked in a tab-target style system (although GW2 has a great take on tab-targeting), but the sky is the limit with more freeform combat systems. You just have to look at single-player rpg and action games to get an idea of the potential. We could be climbing on big monsters and stabbing them in the eye sometime soon.
I quit TERA because I didn't like the combat. The problem is that awkward controls meant that you're fighting a lot more against the game controls than against mobs. That's partially because the control scheme is awkward, and partially because the mobs don't put up much of a fight. Mobs are stupidly easy to kill, as you kill mobs in two hits and they take about 20 to kill you. The only way to get any semblance of a challenge is to either skip a bunch of stuff to go far above your level or else try to solo group content. Both of those have serious play-balance problems because you're trying to do something with them that was never intended.
I'm fine with combat based on interesting strategy, however slow-paced. But games that eschew action in favor of tab targeting usually don't have much in the way of strategy, either. Trinity combat is perhaps one strategy of sorts, but too often it degenerates into exactly the same strategy (the tank tanks, the healer heals, the damage dealers deal damage) in just about every single battle. That's not relying on interesting strategy to make slow combat interesting. That's relying on players being easily distracted by epics even though the combat itself is terrible.
Yeah, you can have strategy points like, kill this first instead of that when it spawns, or move over there at this point in the battle. But you can do that every bit as well with action combat as with slow tab-targeting combat.