Because people that jump and bounce all around are doing nothing but taking advantage of lag which is not skill - its annoying. or clicking left and right and twitching in game due to lag or execution time.
People want realism in combat and thats about as unreal as you can get. Its partially why i like Eve so much.
And when life allows you to age to my age, the reactions just aren't the same. The eyesight fades; the reaction time goes from fly-catching ninja / hockey-goalie heroic to bumbling goof who gets hit in the face with a Nerf ball thrown by a three-year old; the brain grows just a bit weary of constant need to focus; responsibilities (including plumbing) distract. (Okay, nobody in the house ignores a busted pipe). Tab combat is more 'mature-friendly'. It is simply more conducive to my lifestyle.
I am almost 50 and i still prefer action combat.
If you play pvp, twitch reaction is important ... but most pve games is not that hard. Games like Diablo 3 is as much about being able to do stuff fast, and also about knowing what to do.
And when life allows you to age to my age, the reactions just aren't the same. The eyesight fades; the reaction time goes from fly-catching ninja / hockey-goalie heroic to bumbling goof who gets hit in the face with a Nerf ball thrown by a three-year old; the brain grows just a bit weary of constant need to focus; responsibilities (including plumbing) distract. (Okay, nobody in the house ignores a busted pipe). Tab combat is more 'mature-friendly'. It is simply more conducive to my lifestyle.
I am almost 50 and i still prefer action combat.
If you play pvp, twitch reaction is important ... but most pve games is not that hard. Games like Diablo 3 is as much about being able to do stuff fast, and also about knowing what to do.
I suppose everyone is different though.
Agreed. I generally prefer action combat as well and while Im a few years younger than you I been playing MMOs since Meridian 59 released.
I do however think that some mechanics works better for certain games. If you play soldiers in a relatively modern conflict then FPS mechanics would work better.
I don't really like tab targetting in a swordfight, for me I want a swordfight to be fast and furious. If you are a mage, then tab targetting works fine.
My opinion is that we should have games with all the types of combat, some games fit some players, others fit other types of players but your mechanics need to work in the setting. FPS mechanics just don't feel right to me in a swordfight, it was always games like Daggerfalls weak point. Then again if some of you enjoy that Im all in for a game or 2 with that mechanics anyways.
MMOs needs to offer different types of games with their own types of mechanics if they want to attract more players, too much of the same and you will just compete over the same type of players which in the long run will shrink the playerbase and if not kill the genre at least hurt it.
pvp is one aspect...you dont have to make action combat as fast and twitchy as a shooter...there are a lot of colors between black and white.
but action combat makes also pve so much more engaging and gives you so much more feel for impcat and control that it makes combat just so much more fun... tab target combat is so unbelievably boring... i recently tried to go back to swtor when they had their xp bonus - i got through one afternoon than quit again - combat is soooooooooo boring
And when life allows you to age to my age, the reactions just aren't the same. The eyesight fades; the reaction time goes from fly-catching ninja / hockey-goalie heroic to bumbling goof who gets hit in the face with a Nerf ball thrown by a three-year old; the brain grows just a bit weary of constant need to focus; responsibilities (including plumbing) distract. (Okay, nobody in the house ignores a busted pipe). Tab combat is more 'mature-friendly'. It is simply more conducive to my lifestyle.
I am almost 50 and i still prefer action combat.
If you play pvp, twitch reaction is important ... but most pve games is not that hard. Games like Diablo 3 is as much about being able to do stuff fast, and also about knowing what to do.
I suppose everyone is different though.
Agreed. I generally prefer action combat as well and while Im a few years younger than you I been playing MMOs since Meridian 59 released.
I do however think that some mechanics works better for certain games. If you play soldiers in a relatively modern conflict then FPS mechanics would work better.
I don't really like tab targetting in a swordfight, for me I want a swordfight to be fast and furious. If you are a mage, then tab targetting works fine.
My opinion is that we should have games with all the types of combat, some games fit some players, others fit other types of players but your mechanics need to work in the setting. FPS mechanics just don't feel right to me in a swordfight, it was always games like Daggerfalls weak point. Then again if some of you enjoy that Im all in for a game or 2 with that mechanics anyways.
MMOs needs to offer different types of games with their own types of mechanics if they want to attract more players, too much of the same and you will just compete over the same type of players which in the long run will shrink the playerbase and if not kill the genre at least hurt it.
yeh ... MMOs need to offer different types of combats, and mechanics. I don't see why you cannot do steath type combat mechanics, or TPS, or diablo type combat, or anything ... in a MMO instance.
MMO-gamer grow old thats why. I am 36 years old and a veteran EQ player. We are used to tab targeting and if I would like to play action oriented games I would play Battlefield or PS. I play MMOs for the fluff and for a slower game pace.
In the recent years where action combat has taken more and more hold in the new games coming, all I keep seeing is the same "The combat in this game sucks" for games that actually implement working action combat.
Whether its TSW, GW2, WS, Tera or a bunch of other MMORPGs, if you scim through the comments, you always find that a major part of the people leaving the games to play WoD or Final Fantasy instead because "the combat suck"
So why do people prefer tab-targetting? I´m personally a huge fan of action-combat and I believe that games like Tera and WS have made perfect action combat to their respective games, so Im unable to put my mind to why tab-targetting should be preferred. Would anyone dare to explain why?
And I know a lot of comments will be like "Because it was poor implement" or "Not well designed", but to be fair, I dont think its possible to make better action combat than what the 2 above mentioned games have made.
So please, enlighten me. Whats the catch of tab-targetting?
I dont prefer tab targetting although i play games with tab targets: WOW.
Okay in arena, i do not have the privilege to manually click on a frame or an enemy nameplate nor do i have the time to tab target the correct enemy.
The reason there's macro like
/cast [target=arena1] paralyze
/cast [target=arena2] spear hand strike
is to execute things faster cause in pvp, every second counts.
What if its 5v5 or worse, what if its 40 man BGS?
Even healing is raiding(LFR) is retarded enough that i had to click on party frames just so i can target the correct person to heal.
It is retarded to do a 25 different targetting keybinds just to target 25 different players.....
Its a great concept on small scale encounters/pvp but in a large pvp setting, there needs to be a way that heals or damage is dealt to the correct player , lets say i aim my mouse on a certain location-> my heals and damage will be executed on that particular location.
Idk but games who are built ground up on tab targets can't be switched over to fps style targetting, it would be suicide for that particular games.
Anyways, its just a matter of personal preference but for one, i love fps targetting.
Landing a leash on TERA's lancer on a mounted opponent in bg takes 10 times more skill than landing a deathgrip on wow's dk.
for the same reason I like to use twitch controls while playing FPS games, it is the type of game I want to play at that moment. I don't want my fantasy MMO to play like an FPS, and I don't want my FPS to play like an MMO.
the missing link in a chain of destruction.
All spelling and typographical errors are based soely on the fact that i just dont care. If you must point out my lack of atention to detail, please do it with a smile.
Originally posted by korr for the same reason I like to use twitch controls while playing FPS games, it is the type of game I want to play at that moment. I don't want my fantasy MMO to play like an FPS, and I don't want my FPS to play like an MMO.
Why not?
Should there be all combinations to add to the variety?
There is no reason why RPG cannot use FPS combat ... Fallout 3, Borderland all do that successfully.
RPGs by their nature are not twitch-intensive. This is a major reason behind their wider, more casual appeal.
One example: critical strikes. Instead of manually aiming at that dragon's eye, critical damage is simply a random occurrence. Ideally the randomness is controllable by earlier decisions (choices you made in build, gear, etc.)
So executing decisions is easy.
So naturally selecting a target should be even easier.
Tab-targeting is one of the simplest possible forms of target selection.
There are a handful of minor reasons tab-targeting specifically ends up being a strong choice too:
The collision volume (the thing your mouse clicks when you attempt to manually target something in the game world) is often not perfectly matched with a monster's visuals, which means that even if you accurately clicked the wizard you could clearly see between that giant's legs, you can end up with the giant selected instead.
Beyond that, the target you wish to select may be entirely obscured. But if a game lacks projectile obstruction it still needs to provide a convenient way to select that target.
Certainly you can create a deep, fun game that doesn't use tab-targeting (and this is often done) but for MMORPGs in particular tab-targeting is a very good fit.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
RPGs by their nature are not twitch-intensive. This is a major reason behind their wider, more casual appeal.
how about action RPGs? They are twitch intensive, and you don't need me to tell you how popular Diablo (and its clones) is. I think selling 15M+ in the latest incarnation would count as wider appeal.
You can control what you attack instead of pissing off other mobs, or mashing buttons and hope you kill something. It tracks your target as you move and allows los checking.
OP, I would guess it is because action oriented combat games end up being very repetitive combat games. You usually have like 8 skills that are spammed in whichever situation. This is my personal experience with games like WS, ESO, GW2, and Tera.
Originally posted by Robokapp What I want to know from the proponents of "action" combat is what a medium scale skirmish like 20 v 20 looks like in their mind.
I think it might look like I have 19 friends beside me and 20 enemy in front of me. Expand the question.
IMO tab targeting is nostalgia. It existed due to technical limitations and people made the best of it.
Times have changed, most people like to be immersed in combat as well, not run a macro and walk away. I think there is plenty room for active skill meta (if they cast this, I can counter with this) in free target combat. Writing off a game because it has action combat because you're an old fart with thick bifocals isn't the answer though. I understand that some folks are starting to feel left out but it's the circle of life.
Just remember the whole "come at me bro" thing was around before action combat. No correlation.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
how about action RPGs? They are twitch intensive, and you don't need me to tell you how popular Diablo (and its clones) is. I think selling 15M+ in the latest incarnation would count as wider appeal.
For much of the early game, Diablo isn't twitch intensive. Someone with extremely poor twitch skills can easily make it through normal difficulty with almost zero deaths.
A player's overall capability is a combination of skill (strategy, tactics, & twitch) and progression (gear, level, etc). If a game's challenge doesn't demand a significant amount of skill, then it's hard to call that game skill intensive.
Eventually the challenge gets high enough for the game to be considered twitch intensive, but it's like 20+ hours into the game which means that for a big chunk of the time for most players (including an additional 20+ per alt) the game isn't twitch intensive.
At a surface layer, combat is fast-paced and appears twitchy but the reality is the majority of play isn't twitch-centric at all. Maybe if you weren't forced into normal difficulty and difficulty worked like a difficulty selector and not simply a tier selector things would be different (and that's actually my #1 criticism of the game: you're forced to play a lot of easy mode before you get to anything resembling challenging gameplay.)
But again, it's the same casual-friendly low-skill gameplay you find in any other RPG.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Go play FFXI and see if manual aiming would work,it does not ..unless you want to dumb game play down.
The real question should be,why do some people think manual aiming is where it's at?
I want my combat to have lots of choice and to be complex,you cannot accomplish that if i have to spend every second looking at my target.
It works and ONLY in fps's because your ONLY choice is to aim and hit the mouse button,NOTHING else matters.In a good in depth mmo you should have to have macros and several keys to do several things,that is the ONLY way to do it on a computer.In real life we don't have to access files so of course we can manually aim but in computer gaming the only way to access files is to use various keystrokes and that often means taking your eyes off the screen and looking at your keyboard.
In real life i don't have to aim,press F2 to target my second player in group,then hit CTRL+3 to hit macro 3 to use a certain type of healing or debuff.Then if i want to cast a debuff on another player i have to hit a different macro plus F4 for a different player,it ends up more effort than would be plausible realism.The only recourse like i said is to dumb down combat and i don't want that,i want yet MORE depth in my PVE combat.
For pvp i couldn't care less because you'll NEVER have good PVP in a rpg.PVP belongs ONLY in fps's,where it can be designed and done properly and more importantly not have to compete with the PVE design and setup and trust me they ALWAYS ruin each other.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
As long as its group PvP and not single character vs single character PvP, because in the later you would have to balance all the classes and that clashes with the way classic fantasy class systems are set up.
Examples for classes that are typical for MMOs:
Warrior/Fighter/Berserker - a base fighter type without any magic, with tanking abilities and/or high damage output
Cleric/Mystic/Priest - your divine magic wielding deity servant with healing capabilities, details differ (D&D - heavy armor user, WoW - robe wearer etc)
Wizard/Mage/Sorcerer/Elementarist - general arcane magic user / offensive spellcaster / damage dealer class
Thief/Rogue - trickery and stealth specialist, in MMOs quite often dualweapon specialist
Ranger/Archer - archery specialist, sometimes dualweapon specialist, often with a hint of druidic magic
Paladin - clerical tank
Shaman - The cleric for natural religions
Bard - Something with songs. In MMOs typically a damage dealer type, with group buffs.
Druid - Can be a dedicated healer, can be a magic damage dealer with some healing skills
Monk - A martial arts specialist for which nobody can agree upon what they ultimately are about (seen as specialized magekiller [D&D], tank, healer, debuffer specialist etc)
Necromancer - Death/Undeath Mage
Psion/Enchanter/Illusionist - Crowd Control Specialist
Summoner - Pet specialist
Death Knight/Dark Avenger - Anti-Paladin, typically evil
The more variances you create, the harder this is to balance for 1vs1 PvP
Comments
Because people that jump and bounce all around are doing nothing but taking advantage of lag which is not skill - its annoying. or clicking left and right and twitching in game due to lag or execution time.
People want realism in combat and thats about as unreal as you can get. Its partially why i like Eve so much.
I am almost 50 and i still prefer action combat.
If you play pvp, twitch reaction is important ... but most pve games is not that hard. Games like Diablo 3 is as much about being able to do stuff fast, and also about knowing what to do.
I suppose everyone is different though.
Agreed. I generally prefer action combat as well and while Im a few years younger than you I been playing MMOs since Meridian 59 released.
I do however think that some mechanics works better for certain games. If you play soldiers in a relatively modern conflict then FPS mechanics would work better.
I don't really like tab targetting in a swordfight, for me I want a swordfight to be fast and furious. If you are a mage, then tab targetting works fine.
My opinion is that we should have games with all the types of combat, some games fit some players, others fit other types of players but your mechanics need to work in the setting. FPS mechanics just don't feel right to me in a swordfight, it was always games like Daggerfalls weak point. Then again if some of you enjoy that Im all in for a game or 2 with that mechanics anyways.
MMOs needs to offer different types of games with their own types of mechanics if they want to attract more players, too much of the same and you will just compete over the same type of players which in the long run will shrink the playerbase and if not kill the genre at least hurt it.
pvp is one aspect...you dont have to make action combat as fast and twitchy as a shooter...there are a lot of colors between black and white.
but action combat makes also pve so much more engaging and gives you so much more feel for impcat and control that it makes combat just so much more fun... tab target combat is so unbelievably boring... i recently tried to go back to swtor when they had their xp bonus - i got through one afternoon than quit again - combat is soooooooooo boring
yeh ... MMOs need to offer different types of combats, and mechanics. I don't see why you cannot do steath type combat mechanics, or TPS, or diablo type combat, or anything ... in a MMO instance.
I dont prefer tab targetting although i play games with tab targets: WOW.
Okay in arena, i do not have the privilege to manually click on a frame or an enemy nameplate nor do i have the time to tab target the correct enemy.
The reason there's macro like
/cast [target=arena1] paralyze
/cast [target=arena2] spear hand strike
is to execute things faster cause in pvp, every second counts.
What if its 5v5 or worse, what if its 40 man BGS?
Even healing is raiding(LFR) is retarded enough that i had to click on party frames just so i can target the correct person to heal.
It is retarded to do a 25 different targetting keybinds just to target 25 different players.....
Its a great concept on small scale encounters/pvp but in a large pvp setting, there needs to be a way that heals or damage is dealt to the correct player , lets say i aim my mouse on a certain location-> my heals and damage will be executed on that particular location.
Idk but games who are built ground up on tab targets can't be switched over to fps style targetting, it would be suicide for that particular games.
Anyways, its just a matter of personal preference but for one, i love fps targetting.
Landing a leash on TERA's lancer on a mounted opponent in bg takes 10 times more skill than landing a deathgrip on wow's dk.
the missing link in a chain of destruction.
All spelling and typographical errors are based soely on the fact that i just dont care. If you must point out my lack of atention to detail, please do it with a smile.
Makes writing gold farming bots so much easier...
Why not?
Should there be all combinations to add to the variety?
There is no reason why RPG cannot use FPS combat ... Fallout 3, Borderland all do that successfully.
The reason:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
how about action RPGs? They are twitch intensive, and you don't need me to tell you how popular Diablo (and its clones) is. I think selling 15M+ in the latest incarnation would count as wider appeal.
I don't care if a game has tab targeting or more action oriented controls.
Both can be implemented well and result in very fun games, both can also end up being horrible.
I think it might look like I have 19 friends beside me and 20 enemy in front of me. Expand the question.
IMO tab targeting is nostalgia. It existed due to technical limitations and people made the best of it.
Times have changed, most people like to be immersed in combat as well, not run a macro and walk away. I think there is plenty room for active skill meta (if they cast this, I can counter with this) in free target combat. Writing off a game because it has action combat because you're an old fart with thick bifocals isn't the answer though. I understand that some folks are starting to feel left out but it's the circle of life.
Just remember the whole "come at me bro" thing was around before action combat. No correlation.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
------- END TRANSMISSION
For much of the early game, Diablo isn't twitch intensive. Someone with extremely poor twitch skills can easily make it through normal difficulty with almost zero deaths.
A player's overall capability is a combination of skill (strategy, tactics, & twitch) and progression (gear, level, etc). If a game's challenge doesn't demand a significant amount of skill, then it's hard to call that game skill intensive.
Eventually the challenge gets high enough for the game to be considered twitch intensive, but it's like 20+ hours into the game which means that for a big chunk of the time for most players (including an additional 20+ per alt) the game isn't twitch intensive.
At a surface layer, combat is fast-paced and appears twitchy but the reality is the majority of play isn't twitch-centric at all. Maybe if you weren't forced into normal difficulty and difficulty worked like a difficulty selector and not simply a tier selector things would be different (and that's actually my #1 criticism of the game: you're forced to play a lot of easy mode before you get to anything resembling challenging gameplay.)
But again, it's the same casual-friendly low-skill gameplay you find in any other RPG.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Because I want the challenge
"Which of my douzens of skills would be best to use next ?"
instead of
"Can I manage faster reflexes ?"
The later simply doesnt jog my brain and thus bores me.
Go play FFXI and see if manual aiming would work,it does not ..unless you want to dumb game play down.
The real question should be,why do some people think manual aiming is where it's at?
I want my combat to have lots of choice and to be complex,you cannot accomplish that if i have to spend every second looking at my target.
It works and ONLY in fps's because your ONLY choice is to aim and hit the mouse button,NOTHING else matters.In a good in depth mmo you should have to have macros and several keys to do several things,that is the ONLY way to do it on a computer.In real life we don't have to access files so of course we can manually aim but in computer gaming the only way to access files is to use various keystrokes and that often means taking your eyes off the screen and looking at your keyboard.
In real life i don't have to aim,press F2 to target my second player in group,then hit CTRL+3 to hit macro 3 to use a certain type of healing or debuff.Then if i want to cast a debuff on another player i have to hit a different macro plus F4 for a different player,it ends up more effort than would be plausible realism.The only recourse like i said is to dumb down combat and i don't want that,i want yet MORE depth in my PVE combat.
For pvp i couldn't care less because you'll NEVER have good PVP in a rpg.PVP belongs ONLY in fps's,where it can be designed and done properly and more importantly not have to compete with the PVE design and setup and trust me they ALWAYS ruin each other.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Uhh ... I think you need to go outside more.
I disagree, MMOs can have great PvP.
As long as its group PvP and not single character vs single character PvP, because in the later you would have to balance all the classes and that clashes with the way classic fantasy class systems are set up.
Examples for classes that are typical for MMOs:
Warrior/Fighter/Berserker - a base fighter type without any magic, with tanking abilities and/or high damage output
Cleric/Mystic/Priest - your divine magic wielding deity servant with healing capabilities, details differ (D&D - heavy armor user, WoW - robe wearer etc)
Wizard/Mage/Sorcerer/Elementarist - general arcane magic user / offensive spellcaster / damage dealer class
Thief/Rogue - trickery and stealth specialist, in MMOs quite often dualweapon specialist
Ranger/Archer - archery specialist, sometimes dualweapon specialist, often with a hint of druidic magic
Paladin - clerical tank
Shaman - The cleric for natural religions
Bard - Something with songs. In MMOs typically a damage dealer type, with group buffs.
Druid - Can be a dedicated healer, can be a magic damage dealer with some healing skills
Monk - A martial arts specialist for which nobody can agree upon what they ultimately are about (seen as specialized magekiller [D&D], tank, healer, debuffer specialist etc)
Necromancer - Death/Undeath Mage
Psion/Enchanter/Illusionist - Crowd Control Specialist
Summoner - Pet specialist
Death Knight/Dark Avenger - Anti-Paladin, typically evil
The more variances you create, the harder this is to balance for 1vs1 PvP