"The combat sucks" is not the reason most people leave Tera or GW2. People that don't like that type of combat either don't play those games or leave very quickly. The main criticism levelled at Tera is that is has boring "grindy" quests; for GW2 I have seen various reasons why some people don't like it, but the combat system in itself is not a major one.
I quit TERA because I didn't like the combat. The problem is that awkward controls meant that you're fighting a lot more against the game controls than against mobs. That's partially because the control scheme is awkward, and partially because the mobs don't put up much of a fight. Mobs are stupidly easy to kill, as you kill mobs in two hits and they take about 20 to kill you. The only way to get any semblance of a challenge is to either skip a bunch of stuff to go far above your level or else try to solo group content. Both of those have serious play-balance problems because you're trying to do something with them that was never intended.
You clearly did not get very far in the game, so your idea of what Tera's combat is like, is completely without merit. My guess is max level of 20 for you?
No sensible game designer decides to make some awesome content, but hide it behind a mountain of stupid grinding so that hardly anyone ever gets to see it or even find out that it exists. If you've got some great content, you try to shuttle players into it early on. A bunch of stupid grinding is only what you resort to if you don't have any interesting content to show off.
And because of that, a sensible player who is halfway to the level cap (I quit at 30) and hasn't yet found any interesting content doesn't keep on grinding in hopes that it's just hiding off somewhere where he hasn't gotten to it yet. Even in the unlikely event that there is good content and interesting combat out there at higher levels, it was sequestered there by idiot game designers--and idiot game designers are likely to cause more than a few other problems with a game.
Do you play FF14? I have a similar problem with no being able to level in that game because it seems quite boring at first. At least with Tera the fighting is enjoyable especially in a group even at low levels.
Btw there are plenty of mobs and BAMs in Tera that can kill you if you aren't careful or in a group, even at lower levels, its actually much more challenging in that sense than most other mmos I have played.
Combat in TSW does suck. No one will disagree with that. Just ask people in the game what they think about combat.The game has other strong points. I think they did it intentionally tough because that combat kinda fits the game...
I don't hate action game, but hate games when the advertize as action games and they aren't, like Tera. i really really don't understand why people call tera an action game. The combat is so slow and boring. In a 2 min fight, you only attack for 10 seconds (maybe an exageration? haven't played it for a while) You don't even dodge. You just stay far enough until some skills are off cooldown circling the mob. Atack for 10 seconds, the go back to circling. When i looked for a pvp video and saw what the combat was at the high level, I quit. It was literally a staring contest with some skills fired from time to time reminding you that it's "combat"
Final fantasy XIV has more "action combat" than Tera.
The best action game I played is probably C9. you had your skill bar(action skills) and command skills. The second you couldn't add to skill bar but you perform them by pressing a combination of keys.
Other games i liked the combat was Dragon nest and Neverwinter. Out of all the games i've played i think these 3 had the combat perfect for their game. But they have other issues like gender lock, instanced, less content than other tab targets or cash shop problems.
ESO, Wildstar and Vindictus altough they aren't tab targeting i don't find the combat as "actiony" as the above. Not saying that they aren't good.
As for the question in the topic.
I think action game have less content than the tab targeting ones. Probably not true, but they leave that impression.
But there is no right answer. Even action game could be split in different categories. Some tab targeting are like, or trying to be like,action games...
I'ts like eating apples or oranges or any other fruit. If i eat an apple it doesn't mean i don't like oranges:) It's just that at that moment of time I want an apple more than an orange.
I prefer TAB targeting in MMORPG's, it is more suited for this type of game.
Action Combat is for Different Games, such as Planetside II, World War II Online, Defiance etc, FPS based Action MMO's.
Remember SWG, it had land based and Space based Combat, Land based combat was TAB targeting, Space Based was FPS style Action Combat.
Half of the population of the game never got in to space combat on their own, not everyone is made to be a pilot and have the spatial awareness.
Tab targeting permits you to plan your move and execute it in a more organized manner, in a type of game that is supposed to be so much more, than just about combat.
Hence it is simply more suited.
IMO
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Plus because ppl also like more the fluff content like pet battles, farms, garrisons and other activities, than real challenging content.
...WoW has the biggest raiding community, and toughest raid encounters (Mythic), of any game in the industry...
I have not played many non tab target MMOs out there, my only one being Wildstar (ESO, DCUO, each have "targeting"), but when it comes to PVP at least, tab targeting takes way more skill imo. Knowing who to target and when to inturrupt or steal which spell takes vastly more skill and knowledge of the game, than the AoE spam fest of Wildstar.
Plus because ppl also like more the fluff content like pet battles, farms, garrisons and other activities, than real challenging content.
...WoW has the biggest raiding community, and toughest raid encounters (Mythic), of any game in the industry...
I have not played many non tab target MMOs out there, my only one being Wildstar (ESO, DCUO, each have "targeting"), but when it comes to PVP at least, tab targeting takes way more skill imo. Knowing who to target and when to inturrupt or steal which spell takes vastly more skill and knowledge of the game, than the AoE spam fest of Wildstar.
I'm inclined to agree... Twitch combat is easy, you aim, swing and hit. There's nothing more to it than that, on defense you roll, dodge or block, again easy. Getting on top in a tab oriented game takes a lot more work, hence where the problem is for many. Especially those who claim there's no skill. The statement alone shows they don't understand what you need to do or know to actually gain skill in it. Getting ahead takes work and knowledge, two things not just handed to you. Action games are the polar opposite of that, it's all about instant action, not reading, learning then applying.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Much of this thread has accepted as a given that spamming the space bar and whipping the mouse back and forth is somehow more entertaining than hitting action keys/clicking an action bar.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
If an MMO wants you to grind mobs for thousands of hours for any given reason, tab is better. Granted I'm sure the grind itself is the real culprit but it's a necessary evil in most peoples eyes so they opt for the tab version.
Tab targetting works for ranged combat, aiming your arrows and similar is pretty hard and gives you balance problems if you want to make melee and ranged equally good. Otherwise it takes a lot of time to learn to be a good ranger while anyone can play a warrior.
In melee I feel that tab targetting just don't cut it. AoCs excellent collision detection where you hit whatever your weapon touched was amazing (too bad their combos and shields didn't work as well).
Plus because ppl also like more the fluff content like pet battles, farms, garrisons and other activities, than real challenging content.
...WoW has the biggest raiding community, and toughest raid encounters (Mythic), of any game in the industry...
I have not played many non tab target MMOs out there, my only one being Wildstar (ESO, DCUO, each have "targeting"), but when it comes to PVP at least, tab targeting takes way more skill imo. Knowing who to target and when to inturrupt or steal which spell takes vastly more skill and knowledge of the game, than the AoE spam fest of Wildstar.
I've played ESO since beta. Over 10 months or so I don't think I hit my tab more than 3 times. No it's not full physics like planetside 2, but it has the sharpest targeting outside of a fps. ESO is all about interrupts and blocking. Where as all the tab target mmorpgs I know you can't even block. All you can do is circle strafing and bunny hopping.
Wildstar is something different redefined action combat by the NCsoft marketing department. Like you said it's all AoE all the time. If you ever get the shot to try ESO you'll understand. It's a more refined and complex version of GW2s combat. I played WoW for many years, high ranking in 2's and 3's. There is nothing in WoW that is not done in ESO. Yet there is much more in ESO that can't be done in WoW. Not a dis, just the truth.
...WoW has the biggest raiding community, and toughest raid encounters (Mythic), of any game in the industry...
When WoW ever has an expansion that can't be beaten, like Everquest had Gates of Discord with unbeaten Tunat, WoW will have tough raid encounters. EQ players made fun of how easy WoW's raids were when it was released.
WoW is a relatively easy MMO.
I much prefer tab target, but tab target does not mean the game is hard, it just has the potential to be extremely hard like Everquest Gates raids, but tab target can be easy too like WoW.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
People who like tab MMO --> like turn based strategy RPG
People who like action MMO --> like action RPG
Not true for me. I prefer group based tab-targeting MMO's and can no longer stand turn based combat.
Also your EQ comment cracks me up. You see, the thing about old school MMO's like EQ1 and FFXI is that you were fighting the mechanics of the game more than the mechanics of the encounter. If I've learned anything in the last 10 years of playing with a diverse group of players is that old school players tend to be terrible any any mechanics requiring movement. It's not always the case of course.
If I've learned anything in the last 10 years of playing with a diverse group of players is that old school players tend to be terrible any any mechanics requiring movement. It's not always the case of course.
If you put EQ raiders in an action combat game that requires twitch, we would lose.
But if you put us in an MMO that requires organising big strategic raids with lots of management, EQ raiders would win hands down. Things like DKP were invented in EQ. Old PVE raids are all about management of massive amounts of people.
Both are completely different type of mechanics. One is about reflexes, the other is about managing a strategy and getting 54 other people to do what they're supposed to do and keeping them motivated through failure.
If I've learned anything in the last 10 years of playing with a diverse group of players is that old school players tend to be terrible any any mechanics requiring movement. It's not always the case of course.
If you put EQ raiders in an action combat game that requires twitch, we would lose.
But if you put us in an MMO that requires organising big strategic raids with lots of management, EQ raiders would win hands down. Things like DKP were invented in EQ. Old PVE raids are all about management of massive amounts of people.
Both are completely different type of mechanics. One is about reflexes, the other is about managing a strategy and getting 54 other people to do what they're supposed to do and keeping them motivated through failure.
Oh i'm not arguing organizational skills as i agree. We excelled at getting a large group of players on the same page working together. I'm more referring to getting them to do anything other than standing in one spot, even in a tab-target MMO, is not going to end well.
It doesn't feel very realistic to bunny hop, dodge and roll in a Star Destroyer.
Come to think of it, those actions don't feel very natural in plate armor either.
I don't even comprehend the term "tab targeting really", I always select my targets manually, never use the tab button.
Also, games like DAOC had blocks, parry's, side and rear positionals, all while having /face and /stick commands as well.
What are the advantages of action combat again?
+1 on the tab target,I find if in a group in eq2 and the tank tab targets it can be bad.
I despair at what MMORPG's have become but it is because of the 'new' wave of 'I want everything solo,don't read quest text,give me best loot with no effort,don't want to travel to a dungeon,don't want to talk,give me a DF' type of player that has fucked the genre up.It is too bad they outnumber me 1000 - 1. They know no different bless their entitled little heads and brains.
...WoW has the biggest raiding community, and toughest raid encounters (Mythic), of any game in the industry...
When WoW ever has an expansion that can't be beaten, like Everquest had Gates of Discord with unbeaten Tunat, WoW will have tough raid encounters. EQ players made fun of how easy WoW's raids were when it was released.
WoW is a relatively easy MMO.
I much prefer tab target, but tab target does not mean the game is hard, it just has the potential to be extremely hard like Everquest Gates raids, but tab target can be easy too like WoW.
Please explain to me what you are referring to when you state EQ raids were more difficult than WoW raids. Sure, they were more difficult in attunement and time required to raid and progress, but these were timesinks related to gear not skill level. WoW's raids were much more complex in terms of mechanics and the combat itself required much more skill considering about 50% of the classes required no more than 3 spells / abilities (with the exception of one class, the others required less than 7 total) on a boss encounter (not counting pre-prep) and beyond the initial pull and not screwing up counting on a complete heal rotation skill requirements to be in a raid were non-existent (it was all TIME requirements) because anyone can be just another body to throw at a MOB as long as they had adequate resist gear to mitigate healing for AoE in a game (many bosses didn't even require THIS much) with no real raid size limitations.
Honestly, encounters in Everquest were a joke. The whole game revolved around how you could exploit pathfinding and AI for pulls and positioning the MOB perfectly for optimal LoS. Anyone with the ability to count and read could perform optimally in Everquest. WoW's first 2 raids, Molten Core and Blackwing Lair, were mechanically simple for sure and were based a lot on Everquest raids, but they introduced new mechanics at least that didn't (and couldn't) exist in Everquest that made them at least require awareness of people in the raid.
Hard is not equal to tedious or time consuming.
Or maybe you are referring to the competitive nature of PvE where nothing in Everquest was instanced (till LDoN) and any kill on a rare spawn would mean that the other guilds on the server would have to wait 3-9 days for a chance to compete against that rare spawn in which case I concede that is a form of difficulty since it's a competition, but again time wins over skill here and the most guild that could cover raids during the most time and had the most gear to beat the world spawns would most often dominate the spawns on the server. It's hardly enough to justify calling EQ raids more difficult than WoW's raids, since mechanically that would be like comparing early prehistoric weapons to steel weapons.
I'm sorry, but since apparently "Everquest players made fun of how easy WoW's raids were when it released." I'm just going to say as a hardcore raider in both, I can't help but laugh at this statement.
Oh i'm not arguing organizational skills as i agree. We excelled at getting a large group of players on the same page working together. I'm more referring to getting them to do anything other than standing in one spot, even in a tab-target MMO, is not going to end well.
Before Gates of Discord, many mobs were tank 'n spank sandbags, that's why I think many people never encountered the harder raids, everything before Gates was not that hard in terms of strategy. Many EQ players only played the game for 2 or 3 years, not the other 10 years.
...WoW has the biggest raiding community, and toughest raid encounters (Mythic), of any game in the industry...
When WoW ever has an expansion that can't be beaten, like Everquest had Gates of Discord with unbeaten Tunat, WoW will have tough raid encounters. EQ players made fun of how easy WoW's raids were when it was released.
WoW is a relatively easy MMO.
I much prefer tab target, but tab target does not mean the game is hard, it just has the potential to be extremely hard like Everquest Gates raids, but tab target can be easy too like WoW.
Please explain to me what you are referring to when you state EQ raids were more difficult than WoW raids. Sure, they were more difficult in attunement and time required to raid and progress, but these were timesinks related to gear not skill level. WoW's raids were much more complex in terms of mechanics and the combat itself required much more skill considering about 50% of the classes required no more than 3 spells / abilities (with the exception of one class, the others required less than 7 total) on a boss encounter (not counting pre-prep) and beyond the initial pull and not screwing up counting on a complete heal rotation skill requirements to be in a raid were non-existent (it was all TIME requirements) because anyone can be just another body to throw at a MOB as long as they had adequate resist gear to mitigate healing for AoE in a game (many bosses didn't even require THIS much) with no real raid size limitations.
Honestly, encounters in Everquest were a joke. The whole game revolved around how you could exploit pathfinding and AI for pulls and positioning the MOB perfectly for optimal LoS. Anyone with the ability to count and read could perform optimally in Everquest. WoW's first 2 raids, Molten Core and Blackwing Lair, were mechanically simple for sure and were based a lot on Everquest raids, but they introduced new mechanics at least that didn't (and couldn't) exist in Everquest that made them at least require awareness of people in the raid.
Hard is not equal to tedious or time consuming.
Or maybe you are referring to the competitive nature of PvE where nothing in Everquest was instanced (till LDoN) and any kill on a rare spawn would mean that the other guilds on the server would have to wait 3-9 days for a chance to compete against that rare spawn in which case I concede that is a form of difficulty since it's a competition, but again time wins over skill here and the most guild that could cover raids during the most time and had the most gear to beat the world spawns would most often dominate the spawns on the server. It's hardly enough to justify calling EQ raids more difficult than WoW's raids, since mechanically that would be like comparing early prehistoric weapons to steel weapons.
I'm sorry, but since apparently "Everquest players made fun of how easy WoW's raids were when it released." I'm just going to say as a hardcore raider in both, I can't help but laugh at this statement.
I did the first few raids in WoW vanilla, they were a joke compared to EQ's Inktu'Ta and Txevu raids.
When WoW came out we were dealing with raids that were incredibly hard, the main designers of WoW came from Fires Of Heaven, a guild that folded during Gates, because of the difficulty of Gates.
The reason WoW was made was to have an accessible version of EQ. WoW has never had a Tunat mob that took another expansion to beat, WoW has never had a Beast mob that required 200+ tries to beat.
Gates was far far harder than anything any game will ever put out, it was unbeaten until another expansion and another level cap.
If I've learned anything in the last 10 years of playing with a diverse group of players is that old school players tend to be terrible any any mechanics requiring movement. It's not always the case of course.
If you put EQ raiders in an action combat game that requires twitch, we would lose.
But if you put us in an MMO that requires organising big strategic raids with lots of management, EQ raiders would win hands down. Things like DKP were invented in EQ. Old PVE raids are all about management of massive amounts of people.
Both are completely different type of mechanics. One is about reflexes, the other is about managing a strategy and getting 54 other people to do what they're supposed to do and keeping them motivated through failure.
Oh i'm not arguing organizational skills as i agree. We excelled at getting a large group of players on the same page working together. I'm more referring to getting them to do anything other than standing in one spot, even in a tab-target MMO, is not going to end well.
I play assassin in raids now in EQ2,it is tab target and I have to constantly move,in groups I do to,jousting aoe moving from mob to mob in big pulls to backstab. Just because it is tab target it means f~ all about movement. Tab target in EQ2 at least,everyone has to do things,it doesn't mean stand still.
Action combat is a fad and for lesser skilled players. It all boils down to lesser skilled like action combat and more skilled players prefer to have ALL their abilities available as and when needed,end of story.
If I've learned anything in the last 10 years of playing with a diverse group of players is that old school players tend to be terrible any any mechanics requiring movement. It's not always the case of course.
If you put EQ raiders in an action combat game that requires twitch, we would lose.
But if you put us in an MMO that requires organising big strategic raids with lots of management, EQ raiders would win hands down. Things like DKP were invented in EQ. Old PVE raids are all about management of massive amounts of people.
Both are completely different type of mechanics. One is about reflexes, the other is about managing a strategy and getting 54 other people to do what they're supposed to do and keeping them motivated through failure.
I feel like this is incorrect also. The notation that great organization skill was required for Everquest raids is false. The game didn't require a great amount of coordination between players. There was no individual roles beyond complete heal rotations, pulling, and tanking (which was piss easy) until PoP where a few other roles were added to specific encounters like Enchanters being required for Rathe council.
Unfortunately there is no modern MMO example of large scale organization in an action MMO because there haven't been any action MMOs with large scale raiding, but I can say that if you are willing to except PvP as an example the amount of organizational skills some WvW commanders of specific guilds have far exceeds anything I've ever saw in my time playing Everquest.
When an action MMO comes out with large scale organized raiding, you'll see levels of organization equal to or beyond that of anything required of Everquest. Until then, you can look to large scale PvP as an example.
Comments
And none of those 3 are MMORPGs. Nothing even remotely similar to anything this thread is about.
Marvel Heroes is an Isometric Online Action RPG.
Star Conflict is a space shooter.
Warframe is a shooter.
Do you think before you speak.. at all?
Do you play FF14? I have a similar problem with no being able to level in that game because it seems quite boring at first. At least with Tera the fighting is enjoyable especially in a group even at low levels.
Btw there are plenty of mobs and BAMs in Tera that can kill you if you aren't careful or in a group, even at lower levels, its actually much more challenging in that sense than most other mmos I have played.
Combat in TSW does suck. No one will disagree with that. Just ask people in the game what they think about combat.The game has other strong points. I think they did it intentionally tough because that combat kinda fits the game...
I don't hate action game, but hate games when the advertize as action games and they aren't, like Tera. i really really don't understand why people call tera an action game. The combat is so slow and boring. In a 2 min fight, you only attack for 10 seconds (maybe an exageration? haven't played it for a while) You don't even dodge. You just stay far enough until some skills are off cooldown circling the mob. Atack for 10 seconds, the go back to circling. When i looked for a pvp video and saw what the combat was at the high level, I quit. It was literally a staring contest with some skills fired from time to time reminding you that it's "combat"
Final fantasy XIV has more "action combat" than Tera.
The best action game I played is probably C9. you had your skill bar(action skills) and command skills. The second you couldn't add to skill bar but you perform them by pressing a combination of keys.
Other games i liked the combat was Dragon nest and Neverwinter. Out of all the games i've played i think these 3 had the combat perfect for their game. But they have other issues like gender lock, instanced, less content than other tab targets or cash shop problems.
ESO, Wildstar and Vindictus altough they aren't tab targeting i don't find the combat as "actiony" as the above. Not saying that they aren't good.
As for the question in the topic.
I think action game have less content than the tab targeting ones. Probably not true, but they leave that impression.
But there is no right answer. Even action game could be split in different categories. Some tab targeting are like, or trying to be like,action games...
I'ts like eating apples or oranges or any other fruit. If i eat an apple it doesn't mean i don't like oranges:) It's just that at that moment of time I want an apple more than an orange.
EASY
its know overall not all people living same country has server host
in any other type FPS and Action its give fairy issues with Dysnc and all others common issues
Believe most guys here never played with 200ms any mmo imagine play somekind planetside2
I prefer TAB targeting in MMORPG's, it is more suited for this type of game.
Action Combat is for Different Games, such as Planetside II, World War II Online, Defiance etc, FPS based Action MMO's.
Remember SWG, it had land based and Space based Combat, Land based combat was TAB targeting, Space Based was FPS style Action Combat.
Half of the population of the game never got in to space combat on their own, not everyone is made to be a pilot and have the spatial awareness.
Tab targeting permits you to plan your move and execute it in a more organized manner, in a type of game that is supposed to be so much more, than just about combat.
Hence it is simply more suited.
IMO
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
...WoW has the biggest raiding community, and toughest raid encounters (Mythic), of any game in the industry...
I have not played many non tab target MMOs out there, my only one being Wildstar (ESO, DCUO, each have "targeting"), but when it comes to PVP at least, tab targeting takes way more skill imo. Knowing who to target and when to inturrupt or steal which spell takes vastly more skill and knowledge of the game, than the AoE spam fest of Wildstar.
I'm inclined to agree... Twitch combat is easy, you aim, swing and hit. There's nothing more to it than that, on defense you roll, dodge or block, again easy. Getting on top in a tab oriented game takes a lot more work, hence where the problem is for many. Especially those who claim there's no skill. The statement alone shows they don't understand what you need to do or know to actually gain skill in it. Getting ahead takes work and knowledge, two things not just handed to you. Action games are the polar opposite of that, it's all about instant action, not reading, learning then applying.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Much of this thread has accepted as a given that spamming the space bar and whipping the mouse back and forth is somehow more entertaining than hitting action keys/clicking an action bar.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Tab targetting works for ranged combat, aiming your arrows and similar is pretty hard and gives you balance problems if you want to make melee and ranged equally good. Otherwise it takes a lot of time to learn to be a good ranger while anyone can play a warrior.
In melee I feel that tab targetting just don't cut it. AoCs excellent collision detection where you hit whatever your weapon touched was amazing (too bad their combos and shields didn't work as well).
So I guess I prefer a mix.
I've played ESO since beta. Over 10 months or so I don't think I hit my tab more than 3 times. No it's not full physics like planetside 2, but it has the sharpest targeting outside of a fps. ESO is all about interrupts and blocking. Where as all the tab target mmorpgs I know you can't even block. All you can do is circle strafing and bunny hopping.
Wildstar is something different redefined action combat by the NCsoft marketing department. Like you said it's all AoE all the time. If you ever get the shot to try ESO you'll understand. It's a more refined and complex version of GW2s combat. I played WoW for many years, high ranking in 2's and 3's. There is nothing in WoW that is not done in ESO. Yet there is much more in ESO that can't be done in WoW. Not a dis, just the truth.
When WoW ever has an expansion that can't be beaten, like Everquest had Gates of Discord with unbeaten Tunat, WoW will have tough raid encounters. EQ players made fun of how easy WoW's raids were when it was released.
WoW is a relatively easy MMO.
I much prefer tab target, but tab target does not mean the game is hard, it just has the potential to be extremely hard like Everquest Gates raids, but tab target can be easy too like WoW.
I wonder if this is true.
People who like tab MMO --> like turn based strategy RPG
People who like action MMO --> like action RPG
Generally true for me. I like my RPG turn based. I will play fps, but prefer fps game over the more specific fps mmorpg.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
In general i prefer the newer games, GW2 and ESO espescially....
But my favourite class is still Warden from LOTRO. the targetting is only part of the combat, but its not everything, there are more parts to it ...
And yes, i do believe the warden would be even more fun with a GW2-ESO tagettting system
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Not true for me. I prefer group based tab-targeting MMO's and can no longer stand turn based combat.
Also your EQ comment cracks me up. You see, the thing about old school MMO's like EQ1 and FFXI is that you were fighting the mechanics of the game more than the mechanics of the encounter. If I've learned anything in the last 10 years of playing with a diverse group of players is that old school players tend to be terrible any any mechanics requiring movement. It's not always the case of course.
If you put EQ raiders in an action combat game that requires twitch, we would lose.
But if you put us in an MMO that requires organising big strategic raids with lots of management, EQ raiders would win hands down. Things like DKP were invented in EQ. Old PVE raids are all about management of massive amounts of people.
Both are completely different type of mechanics. One is about reflexes, the other is about managing a strategy and getting 54 other people to do what they're supposed to do and keeping them motivated through failure.
Oh i'm not arguing organizational skills as i agree. We excelled at getting a large group of players on the same page working together. I'm more referring to getting them to do anything other than standing in one spot, even in a tab-target MMO, is not going to end well.
+1 on the tab target,I find if in a group in eq2 and the tank tab targets it can be bad.
I despair at what MMORPG's have become but it is because of the 'new' wave of 'I want everything solo,don't read quest text,give me best loot with no effort,don't want to travel to a dungeon,don't want to talk,give me a DF' type of player that has fucked the genre up.It is too bad they outnumber me 1000 - 1. They know no different bless their entitled little heads and brains.
Please explain to me what you are referring to when you state EQ raids were more difficult than WoW raids. Sure, they were more difficult in attunement and time required to raid and progress, but these were timesinks related to gear not skill level. WoW's raids were much more complex in terms of mechanics and the combat itself required much more skill considering about 50% of the classes required no more than 3 spells / abilities (with the exception of one class, the others required less than 7 total) on a boss encounter (not counting pre-prep) and beyond the initial pull and not screwing up counting on a complete heal rotation skill requirements to be in a raid were non-existent (it was all TIME requirements) because anyone can be just another body to throw at a MOB as long as they had adequate resist gear to mitigate healing for AoE in a game (many bosses didn't even require THIS much) with no real raid size limitations.
Honestly, encounters in Everquest were a joke. The whole game revolved around how you could exploit pathfinding and AI for pulls and positioning the MOB perfectly for optimal LoS. Anyone with the ability to count and read could perform optimally in Everquest. WoW's first 2 raids, Molten Core and Blackwing Lair, were mechanically simple for sure and were based a lot on Everquest raids, but they introduced new mechanics at least that didn't (and couldn't) exist in Everquest that made them at least require awareness of people in the raid.
Hard is not equal to tedious or time consuming.
Or maybe you are referring to the competitive nature of PvE where nothing in Everquest was instanced (till LDoN) and any kill on a rare spawn would mean that the other guilds on the server would have to wait 3-9 days for a chance to compete against that rare spawn in which case I concede that is a form of difficulty since it's a competition, but again time wins over skill here and the most guild that could cover raids during the most time and had the most gear to beat the world spawns would most often dominate the spawns on the server. It's hardly enough to justify calling EQ raids more difficult than WoW's raids, since mechanically that would be like comparing early prehistoric weapons to steel weapons.
I'm sorry, but since apparently "Everquest players made fun of how easy WoW's raids were when it released." I'm just going to say as a hardcore raider in both, I can't help but laugh at this statement.
http://youtu.be/lgD5s4f1gvw?t=2m47s
was funny raid
Before Gates of Discord, many mobs were tank 'n spank sandbags, that's why I think many people never encountered the harder raids, everything before Gates was not that hard in terms of strategy. Many EQ players only played the game for 2 or 3 years, not the other 10 years.
I did the first few raids in WoW vanilla, they were a joke compared to EQ's Inktu'Ta and Txevu raids.
When WoW came out we were dealing with raids that were incredibly hard, the main designers of WoW came from Fires Of Heaven, a guild that folded during Gates, because of the difficulty of Gates.
The reason WoW was made was to have an accessible version of EQ. WoW has never had a Tunat mob that took another expansion to beat, WoW has never had a Beast mob that required 200+ tries to beat.
Gates was far far harder than anything any game will ever put out, it was unbeaten until another expansion and another level cap.
I play assassin in raids now in EQ2,it is tab target and I have to constantly move,in groups I do to,jousting aoe moving from mob to mob in big pulls to backstab. Just because it is tab target it means f~ all about movement. Tab target in EQ2 at least,everyone has to do things,it doesn't mean stand still.
Action combat is a fad and for lesser skilled players. It all boils down to lesser skilled like action combat and more skilled players prefer to have ALL their abilities available as and when needed,end of story.
I feel like this is incorrect also. The notation that great organization skill was required for Everquest raids is false. The game didn't require a great amount of coordination between players. There was no individual roles beyond complete heal rotations, pulling, and tanking (which was piss easy) until PoP where a few other roles were added to specific encounters like Enchanters being required for Rathe council.
Unfortunately there is no modern MMO example of large scale organization in an action MMO because there haven't been any action MMOs with large scale raiding, but I can say that if you are willing to except PvP as an example the amount of organizational skills some WvW commanders of specific guilds have far exceeds anything I've ever saw in my time playing Everquest.
When an action MMO comes out with large scale organized raiding, you'll see levels of organization equal to or beyond that of anything required of Everquest. Until then, you can look to large scale PvP as an example.