We were the first guild to beat The Beast on our server, we spent 9 months on that single mob, 5 days a week raiding it, total of over 200 tries, each about 4 hours to set up.
We lost 30% of our raiders in that period, due to people quitting
Bcs Tab-Targetting is the very right System for an MMO/RPG with Character Values while Twitch is the right System for a game without Character Values.
Also Tab Targetting is way less Lag averse than Twitch Targetting and Aimbots do not make any sense.
And Turn Based Tactic/Strategy can be way deeper than Real Time Action.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
I feel like this is incorrect also. The notation that great organization skill was required for Everquest raids is false. The game didn't require a great amount of coordination between players. There was no individual roles beyond complete heal rotations, pulling, and tanking (which was piss easy) until PoP where a few other roles were added to specific encounters like Enchanters being required for Rathe council.
Heal rotations haven't been used in Everquest in over a decade. Seriously, stop making a fool out of yourself. Mobs hit way too fast for a heal roation. You probably dipped your toes in Everquest and never got out of the starting zone.
We were the first raid to beat The Beast on our server, we spent 9 months on that single mob, 5 days a week raiding it, total of over 200 tries, each about 4 hours to set up.
We lost 30% of our raiders due to people quitting.
"a joke"
C'thun was unbeatable till patched. Most raid encounters in WoW took similar effort to beat "first" content for each final raid boss. There are a few problems with claiming because something wasn't beaten it's necessarily harder than a particular encounter:
It may not have been tuned properly for the level of gear possible at the time. FFXI's Pandemonium Warden had a ridiculous passive regen and multiple bosses that made it impossible to kill at the time. Same goes for Absolute Virtue having a one-shot mechanic that would trigger if you didn't do enough damage to kill it in time, yet it remained unbeatable without glitches until gear caught up to where it was possible.
There simply aren't enough people endgame raiding at the time, so the amount of competition for world first kills is statistically lower. That means on average, it's going to take a lot longer to kill a boss.
People quit to go to other games as you mentioned. Attrition rate on games like Everquest after WoW released, and other difficult raiding games like Rift (Hammerknell saw a huge loss a raiders), Wildstar, Age of Conan, is high during difficult encounters. WoW tends to have less of an attrition rate because it has multiple modes and less punishing gameplay to keep raiders active and happy even after constant morale dropping wipes.
Everquest raids were always about TIME. It took TIME to gear up, to prep, to pull out all the trash of a zone and deal with respawns and pulling. Constant needs to break for mana and buffs further added to the time. It took forever just to reach the point where you could raid, then you had to attunement for literally months at a time just to get to certain raid zones, and bosses were fully contestable and only dropped 2 or 3 pieces of gear split amongst 40-60 people on the usual raid size.
Yes, it was a joke, mechanically. Explain the mechanics of a particular GoD raid in Everquest. Then I'll list out the mechanics of a boss like Nefarion.
I feel like this is incorrect also. The notation that great organization skill was required for Everquest raids is false. The game didn't require a great amount of coordination between players. There was no individual roles beyond complete heal rotations, pulling, and tanking (which was piss easy) until PoP where a few other roles were added to specific encounters like Enchanters being required for Rathe council.
Heal rotations haven't been used in Everquest in over a decade. Seriously, stop making a fool out of yourself. Mobs hit way too fast for a heal roation. You probably dipped your toes in Everquest and never got out of the starting zone.
Starting to wonder if he has done any raid outside of PoP. Seems to have no idea.
I feel like this is incorrect also. The notation that great organization skill was required for Everquest raids is false. The game didn't require a great amount of coordination between players. There was no individual roles beyond complete heal rotations, pulling, and tanking (which was piss easy) until PoP where a few other roles were added to specific encounters like Enchanters being required for Rathe council.
Heal rotations haven't been used in Everquest in over a decade. Seriously, stop making a fool out of yourself. Mobs hit way too fast for a heal roation. You probably dipped your toes in Everquest and never got out of the starting zone.
Quit the ad hominens and the insults. We are comparing EQ to Vanilla WoW, and it has been a decade since CH rotations were still in use from when I quit which is 9 years ago (less than decade). As for my experience in Everquest I was in Endorean on the Luclin server, a top raiding guild, and when I did decide to quit I had max AA on Mage and Shaman (I believe level 90 at the time, might not be accurate) and I sold my accounts for $2500 and $500 respectively. I can boast quite a few feats I had in that game as well as other MMOs including personal server and world firsts as well as multiple server first guild kills across various games. Exactly what have you done?
I feel like this is incorrect also. The notation that great organization skill was required for Everquest raids is false. The game didn't require a great amount of coordination between players. There was no individual roles beyond complete heal rotations, pulling, and tanking (which was piss easy) until PoP where a few other roles were added to specific encounters like Enchanters being required for Rathe council.
Heal rotations haven't been used in Everquest in over a decade. Seriously, stop making a fool out of yourself. Mobs hit way too fast for a heal roation. You probably dipped your toes in Everquest and never got out of the starting zone.
Starting to wonder if he has done any raid outside of PoP. Seems to have no idea.
You know your agruements hold no merit when you are forced to ad hominem a person to try to get your point across.
People who like tab MMO --> like turn based strategy RPG
People who like action MMO --> like action RPG
i enjoy both - i think single player rpg's do better action style while party based games do better with a tactical mode (not necessarily turn based)...
i think there is a way to blend the two - dragon age inquisition does a very good job at it - it has some issues with the ui but how they solved the combat system is in my opinion brilliant (if you play with a controller that is)
in fact i only can say again how much i enjoy the combat system in dai and i think there should be an mmo like it
We were the first guild to beat The Beast on our server, we spent 9 months on that single mob, 5 days a week raiding it, total of over 200 tries, each about 4 hours to set up.
We lost 30% of our raiders in that period, due to people quitting
"a joke"
if thats your definition of fun than im a bloody casual and we really want different games...
epic 1.0...1,5.. 2,0.. 2,5,.. server first Vishim kill (Dragonkiller), server first Ifr from Pofire, server first Potime Edge of Eternity, server first lifeshriek
Most quit and moved on to EQ2 or WoW before GoD released. We killed Quarm on our server in Plane of Time as a server first. I was already playing WoW at that point, so I don't have experience with GoD; however I will say this doing some digging this "Beast" that was mentioned the mechanics are:
FLURRY, WILD RAMPAGE, normal RAMPAGE
cast :
"blank slate" Target AE 110 Amnesia (Silence vs Melee Effect) Decrease Hitpoints by 4000 per tick Increase corruption counter by 6 Silence
Which is more mechanically complex? This isn't even the most complex encounter in WoW Vanilla as C'thun, 4 Horsemen, Twin Emps, Sapphron, 4 Horsemen, etc. all are more complex.
I'm sure all the EQ defenders here also did endgame raiding in World of Warcraft up to at least Naxx 40 to make appropriate comparisons to.
You don't understand the encounter AIMonster, the "Otherworld" effect you read, is a AE curse. You get a few seconds to respond if you get the warning, your whole raid gets wiped from an AE effect if that person messes up.
If a single person of the 54 misses the curse, you wipe. That's why it's so hard. And the mobs can take out your tank in a single round, which is why we don't CH anymore, we spam heals and Divine intervention. Mobs hit so hard we need to divine intervention our MT all the time, because he usually dies multiple times during tanking. MT in Everquest can now die from a single bad hit.
Only fast, 1,5 second cast time heals are used, by about 10 healers on the MT, spam and a constant divine intervention to resurrect the tank. CH is no longer possible.
Iirc, there is also a punishemt to the raid if any of the 54 players dies, you get a heavy AE penalty, that knocks off about 70% of your health, for each person that dies during the encounter, if 2 dies within a few seconds, your raid is wiped.
You don't understand the encounter AIMonster, the "Otherworld" effect you read, is a AE curse. You get a few seconds to respond if you get the warning, your whole raid gets wiped from an AE effect if that person messes up.
If a single person of the 54 misses the curse, you wipe. That's why it's so hard. And the mobs can take out your tank in a single round, which is why we don't CH anymore, we spam heals and Divine intervention. Mobs hit so hard we need to divine intervention our MT all the time, because he usually dies multiple times during tanking. MT in Everquest can now die from a single bad hit.
Only fast, 1,5 second cast time heals are used, by about 10 healers on the MT, spam and a constant divine intervention to resurrect the tank. CH is no longer possible.
And mechanics like these were introduced in the very first raid in WoW. Heck, the boss before, Magtheridon, required you to manage multiple curses, diseases, and magic effects to remove across the entire raid and if enough would trigger the result would almost always cause a raid wipe. Nefarion alone has a few (albeit softer) versions of this, some of which these effects dubbed "awareness checks" effect everyone in the raid and a single person missing them can cause an entire raid wipe.
That's what I don't think you guys get. You keep saying I haven't played Everquest (I haven't in something like 9-10 years), but you also clearly haven't played WoW so making comparisons here isn't fair. At least I played Everquest heavily up to LDoN and casually a little past that.
It's not as if WoW doesn't have mechanics that deal with heavy burst on tanks either. Tanks could always die from a single bad round of hits in Everquest (especially since the introduction of Flurry in Velious), but you could have another tank pick it up or resurrect them, which often isn't possible in WoW due to mechanics of the fight and resurrection spells being limited in combat.
Because their first MMO was tab target and it is their preference.
I myself prefer Action even though my first MMO was tab target. Still though, I prefer being entertained and engaged. My only wish for MMORPG.com's forum posters is to not begrudge preference of others by calling Action combat trash or meant for consoles when the overwhelming majority prefers a more action combat experience. As evident by MMO's being the smallest market base in the genre. When you compare it to other genres like MOBA's and FPS's which coincidentally enough features more action combat.
To me because it is simple the best for gaming and with a lot of targets. 2nd preffered like in Wildstar ... all the rest falling very far behing (recticle targeting at the bottom of abyss).
For me the entire idea of playing a role playing game is to play the role of a character who has abilities beyond that of a mere mortal, or at least has the potential to develop skills beyond that of a mere mortal.
When you base a game around action, non-tab targeting combat, you base it around my personal hand-eye coordination. Therefore, I do not transcend my own limited skill set as a human player. Combat becomes based solely on what I can physically do, rather than what a character I have developed can do. No matter how much gear, how many levels I have gained, my combat skill is still based solely what I at the age of 43 can do with my personal hand-eye abilities.
Therefore, I do not find myself immersed in a role I have assumed, but rather continually feel frustrated at my personal abilities.
Action combat is great in some instances, but, the reason I like tab targeting is essentially the same reason I prefer playing pnp dnd over actually combatting someone with a sword and shield, like SCA members for example.
Truth is, I actually like both, but it depends on the game and my mood. When I want to test my own prowess, I play action combat. When I want to immerse myself in a role, I play tab targeting.
100% agreed!
Tab-targetting is great for mmoRPG. Action combat may work better in mmoFPS or MOBA.
200% agreed..
I find action based combat too exclusive.. It relies too much on hand/eye coordination which segregates the player community, instead of uniting players.. Too esporty for my liking in a MMORPG environment..
Originally posted by DMKano One hand gameplay. It's important for many gamers. You can eat a tasty Taco Bell burrito and play with one hand. Those with big hands could eat a double patty burger and play.
Don't forget that tab-targeting also evens out the playfield.
First, you are not playing an FPS to measure your skills in target lock reflexes and no scope kills and bullet trajectories and stuff as you would in, say, Battlefield 4.
Second of all, MMOs are heavy games. Not everyone gets buttery-smooth 60+ FPS in large fights. I'd be safe to say that many MMO players play with relatively bad computers, hell, I had dual core CPU until 2 months ago, when I decided to upgrade because Dragon Age: Inquisition wouldn't run.
With poor FPS its impossible to target. Poor fps slows down response and reaction times.
Do you know how hard it is to write a netcode that would deliver the same play experience on a person with 100 fps and one with 15-25 fps? It's borderline impossible. Tab targetting eliminates this and gives a fighting chance to people with slower PCs. The combat evolves from reaction time to more strategic and tactical.
The dodging mechanics in Gw2 really take advantage of that. You don't have to dodge a projectile if u see it, you just have to tap V and bam, 1 second invulnerability. Notice that something else is flying toward you, tap V again. And it really works well for Gw2 because lets face it, unless you have latest and greatest i7 CPU working @ 4GHz, you are going to get shitty FPS in WvW. Its a nice workaround that makes game challenging for both sides. Not just to the guys with larger e-peen / #PCMasterRace nonsense
I think my issue with action combat is that you end up with such a limited selection of abilities, usually about 5-6, because that is all you can typically manage on a typical keyboard/4 button mouse combination. Honestly that is what keeps me from playing alot of games because I prefer to have 20-30 abilities I can choose from and the challenge being to choose the correct abilities for the situation rather than jumping around using only 4-5 abilities or relying on being able to pull off a combo to achieve something more.
Tab targeting allows you to focus on using those multiple abilities and moving rather than focus on targeting at the expense of abilities.
We were the first guild to beat The Beast on our server, we spent 9 months on that single mob, 5 days a week raiding it, total of over 200 tries, each about 4 hours to set up.
We lost 30% of our raiders in that period, due to people quitting
"a joke"
yeah .. that is a "joke", though not the way you may think.
You are describing a job, not a game. 200 tries for 4 hours each, for ONE encounter in a game? I will pass ... that is wasting too much time on an illusion of an achievement, not to mention none of what you describe sounds fun.
I find action based combat too exclusive.. It relies too much on hand/eye coordination which segregates the player community, instead of uniting players.. Too esporty for my liking in a MMORPG environment..
And when life allows you to age to my age, the reactions just aren't the same. The eyesight fades; the reaction time goes from fly-catching ninja / hockey-goalie heroic to bumbling goof who gets hit in the face with a Nerf ball thrown by a three-year old; the brain grows just a bit weary of constant need to focus; responsibilities (including plumbing) distract. (Okay, nobody in the house ignores a busted pipe). Tab combat is more 'mature-friendly'. It is simply more conducive to my lifestyle.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I think my issue with action combat is that you end up with such a limited selection of abilities, usually about 5-6, because that is all you can typically manage on a typical keyboard/4 button mouse combination. Honestly that is what keeps me from playing alot of games because I prefer to have 20-30 abilities I can choose from and the challenge being to choose the correct abilities for the situation rather than jumping around using only 4-5 abilities or relying on being able to pull off a combo to achieve something more.
Tab targeting allows you to focus on using those multiple abilities and moving rather than focus on targeting at the expense of abilities.
You still have to pick the right skills in an action-ish MMO. Just saying. You wouldn't enter in a fight against a CC boss without stun breakers and stability in Gw2. Or in a condition fight without cleansing abilities.
Comments
We were the first guild to beat The Beast on our server, we spent 9 months on that single mob, 5 days a week raiding it, total of over 200 tries, each about 4 hours to set up.
We lost 30% of our raiders in that period, due to people quitting
"a joke"
Bcs Tab-Targetting is the very right System for an MMO/RPG with Character Values while Twitch is the right System for a game without Character Values.
Also Tab Targetting is way less Lag averse than Twitch Targetting and Aimbots do not make any sense.
And Turn Based Tactic/Strategy can be way deeper than Real Time Action.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
Heal rotations haven't been used in Everquest in over a decade. Seriously, stop making a fool out of yourself. Mobs hit way too fast for a heal roation. You probably dipped your toes in Everquest and never got out of the starting zone.
C'thun was unbeatable till patched. Most raid encounters in WoW took similar effort to beat "first" content for each final raid boss. There are a few problems with claiming because something wasn't beaten it's necessarily harder than a particular encounter:
Everquest raids were always about TIME. It took TIME to gear up, to prep, to pull out all the trash of a zone and deal with respawns and pulling. Constant needs to break for mana and buffs further added to the time. It took forever just to reach the point where you could raid, then you had to attunement for literally months at a time just to get to certain raid zones, and bosses were fully contestable and only dropped 2 or 3 pieces of gear split amongst 40-60 people on the usual raid size.
Yes, it was a joke, mechanically. Explain the mechanics of a particular GoD raid in Everquest. Then I'll list out the mechanics of a boss like Nefarion.
Starting to wonder if he has done any raid outside of PoP. Seems to have no idea.
Quit the ad hominens and the insults. We are comparing EQ to Vanilla WoW, and it has been a decade since CH rotations were still in use from when I quit which is 9 years ago (less than decade). As for my experience in Everquest I was in Endorean on the Luclin server, a top raiding guild, and when I did decide to quit I had max AA on Mage and Shaman (I believe level 90 at the time, might not be accurate) and I sold my accounts for $2500 and $500 respectively. I can boast quite a few feats I had in that game as well as other MMOs including personal server and world firsts as well as multiple server first guild kills across various games. Exactly what have you done?
You know your agruements hold no merit when you are forced to ad hominem a person to try to get your point across.
Only guilds on this list were top raiding guilds.http://www.elitegamerslounge.com/home/progress/encounter.php?id=5 Your guild isn't on there, mine is. You weren't in a top guild, go bash a game you actually played.
i enjoy both - i think single player rpg's do better action style while party based games do better with a tactical mode (not necessarily turn based)...
i think there is a way to blend the two - dragon age inquisition does a very good job at it - it has some issues with the ui but how they solved the combat system is in my opinion brilliant (if you play with a controller that is)
in fact i only can say again how much i enjoy the combat system in dai and i think there should be an mmo like it
if thats your definition of fun than im a bloody casual and we really want different games...
this is for me
epic 1.0...1,5.. 2,0.. 2,5,.. server first Vishim kill (Dragonkiller), server first Ifr from Pofire, server first Potime Edge of Eternity, server first lifeshriek
11,326 AA points
Most quit and moved on to EQ2 or WoW before GoD released. We killed Quarm on our server in Plane of Time as a server first. I was already playing WoW at that point, so I don't have experience with GoD; however I will say this doing some digging this "Beast" that was mentioned the mechanics are:
FLURRY,
WILD RAMPAGE,
normal RAMPAGE
cast :
"blank slate" Target AE 110
Amnesia (Silence vs Melee Effect)
Decrease Hitpoints by 4000 per tick
Increase corruption counter by 6
Silence
"Otherworldly Explosion" Targeted AE
"Vicious Strike" Target Type: Single Decrease Hitpoints by 25000 !
"Sluggishness of the Otherworld"
Target Type: Directional
Decrease Spell Haste by 50%
Decrease Attack Speed by 130%
Increase corruption counter by 24
This is a boss from 2010, then let's compare this to the final boss of the second raid in WoW, Nefarion:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Nefarian_%28tactics%29
Which is more mechanically complex? This isn't even the most complex encounter in WoW Vanilla as C'thun, 4 Horsemen, Twin Emps, Sapphron, 4 Horsemen, etc. all are more complex.
I'm sure all the EQ defenders here also did endgame raiding in World of Warcraft up to at least Naxx 40 to make appropriate comparisons to.
You don't understand the encounter AIMonster, the "Otherworld" effect you read, is a AE curse. You get a few seconds to respond if you get the warning, your whole raid gets wiped from an AE effect if that person messes up.
If a single person of the 54 misses the curse, you wipe. That's why it's so hard. And the mobs can take out your tank in a single round, which is why we don't CH anymore, we spam heals and Divine intervention. Mobs hit so hard we need to divine intervention our MT all the time, because he usually dies multiple times during tanking. MT in Everquest can now die from a single bad hit.
Only fast, 1,5 second cast time heals are used, by about 10 healers on the MT, spam and a constant divine intervention to resurrect the tank. CH is no longer possible.
Iirc, there is also a punishemt to the raid if any of the 54 players dies, you get a heavy AE penalty, that knocks off about 70% of your health, for each person that dies during the encounter, if 2 dies within a few seconds, your raid is wiped.
Compared to EQ, yes WoW is a rather easy game.
And mechanics like these were introduced in the very first raid in WoW. Heck, the boss before, Magtheridon, required you to manage multiple curses, diseases, and magic effects to remove across the entire raid and if enough would trigger the result would almost always cause a raid wipe. Nefarion alone has a few (albeit softer) versions of this, some of which these effects dubbed "awareness checks" effect everyone in the raid and a single person missing them can cause an entire raid wipe.
That's what I don't think you guys get. You keep saying I haven't played Everquest (I haven't in something like 9-10 years), but you also clearly haven't played WoW so making comparisons here isn't fair. At least I played Everquest heavily up to LDoN and casually a little past that.
It's not as if WoW doesn't have mechanics that deal with heavy burst on tanks either. Tanks could always die from a single bad round of hits in Everquest (especially since the introduction of Flurry in Velious), but you could have another tank pick it up or resurrect them, which often isn't possible in WoW due to mechanics of the fight and resurrection spells being limited in combat.
I play FFXIV like a very casual player, how I play seems to depend on the game.
To me because it is simple the best for gaming and with a lot of targets. 2nd preffered like in Wildstar ... all the rest falling very far behing (recticle targeting at the bottom of abyss).
200% agreed..
I find action based combat too exclusive.. It relies too much on hand/eye coordination which segregates the player community, instead of uniting players.. Too esporty for my liking in a MMORPG environment..
This screams "I own a few Fedoras".
Don't forget that tab-targeting also evens out the playfield.
First, you are not playing an FPS to measure your skills in target lock reflexes and no scope kills and bullet trajectories and stuff as you would in, say, Battlefield 4.
Second of all, MMOs are heavy games. Not everyone gets buttery-smooth 60+ FPS in large fights. I'd be safe to say that many MMO players play with relatively bad computers, hell, I had dual core CPU until 2 months ago, when I decided to upgrade because Dragon Age: Inquisition wouldn't run.
With poor FPS its impossible to target. Poor fps slows down response and reaction times.
Do you know how hard it is to write a netcode that would deliver the same play experience on a person with 100 fps and one with 15-25 fps? It's borderline impossible. Tab targetting eliminates this and gives a fighting chance to people with slower PCs. The combat evolves from reaction time to more strategic and tactical.
The dodging mechanics in Gw2 really take advantage of that. You don't have to dodge a projectile if u see it, you just have to tap V and bam, 1 second invulnerability. Notice that something else is flying toward you, tap V again. And it really works well for Gw2 because lets face it, unless you have latest and greatest i7 CPU working @ 4GHz, you are going to get shitty FPS in WvW. Its a nice workaround that makes game challenging for both sides. Not just to the guys with larger e-peen / #PCMasterRace nonsense
I think my issue with action combat is that you end up with such a limited selection of abilities, usually about 5-6, because that is all you can typically manage on a typical keyboard/4 button mouse combination. Honestly that is what keeps me from playing alot of games because I prefer to have 20-30 abilities I can choose from and the challenge being to choose the correct abilities for the situation rather than jumping around using only 4-5 abilities or relying on being able to pull off a combo to achieve something more.
Tab targeting allows you to focus on using those multiple abilities and moving rather than focus on targeting at the expense of abilities.
yeah .. that is a "joke", though not the way you may think.
You are describing a job, not a game. 200 tries for 4 hours each, for ONE encounter in a game? I will pass ... that is wasting too much time on an illusion of an achievement, not to mention none of what you describe sounds fun.
And when life allows you to age to my age, the reactions just aren't the same. The eyesight fades; the reaction time goes from fly-catching ninja / hockey-goalie heroic to bumbling goof who gets hit in the face with a Nerf ball thrown by a three-year old; the brain grows just a bit weary of constant need to focus; responsibilities (including plumbing) distract. (Okay, nobody in the house ignores a busted pipe). Tab combat is more 'mature-friendly'. It is simply more conducive to my lifestyle.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
You still have to pick the right skills in an action-ish MMO. Just saying. You wouldn't enter in a fight against a CC boss without stun breakers and stability in Gw2. Or in a condition fight without cleansing abilities.